MovieChat Forums > Nanking (2007) Discussion > In response to 'omfg, what biased crap'

In response to 'omfg, what biased crap'


I'm reposting this as an individual thread because I hope that I make some valid points. The original thread can be read here to read what I'm arguing with: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0893356/board/nest/105527131

I'm also reposting this, because I want as many people to read the info that I posted using a large amount of my time, because this post actually took some time to research. Enjoy... or don't enjoy, subjectivism being what it is in the historical context:



Why defend the Japanese Army? There are SO many accounts of atrocities that were committed by the Japanese (especially in China), though this is not an attack on the individual soldiers on my part, but rather an attack on the system, which I shall address later.

First off, arguing against the Japan/Nazi Germany link is pure semantics and a pointless argument. One doesn't HAVE to be allied with the Nazi state to have committed atrocities during WWII (though I admit, it was an unnecessary addition of information).

Second, there is tons of believable information regarding the "contest to 100". It is certainly not recognized as being fabricated. There is one single study that has claimed that it is fabricated. And although it is proclaimed as being fabricated, don't forget that it was "fabricated" by Japanese journalists. What does that tell you? It tells you that believing that your Army's second lieutenants beheading 100 people is a fine pursuit in their free time.

Third, the time-line of the "three alls" timing as official policy is again an argument in pure semantics. Merely because the official dictate was not given until 1940, by no means means that it was not practiced. Again, there is ample evidence of this, whether it is believed or not.

And now to finish, let me say that none of this is the fault of the individual Japanese soldier. I firmly believe in the ingrained goodness of the human being and I don't believe that Japanese soldiers of WWII differed from this at all. Rather, they were a product of the system that they were brought up in. Starting with the reign of the Emperor Taishō there was a strict military code in Japan. Orders were to be followed unquestioningly and very little respect was put on human life. To contrast, during the Russo-Japanese war from 1904-1905 (under the reign of Emperor Meiji) Russian POW's were treated under the rules of the Geneva Convention and were actually paid BETTER wages than they were while with the Russian army. However, the Japanese "Spirit Warriors" under the Taishō (and later, Hirohito reign) had no respect for those who surrendered. They believed that every soldier had the responsibility to fight to the death or all honor was lost. In turn, they treated opposing soldiers with that same outlook. Opposing soldiers who surrendered had lost all honor and all humanity, thus they were treated with contempt. This certainly bleed over into the civilian population.

The stories in "Nanking" don't even begin to scratch the surface. There was a disturbing amount of cannibalism on the part of the Japanese in WWII... but yet again, this was not the fault of the individual. Often, thousands of Japanese soldiers would land in a foreign nation to concur, only to be told to "live of the land" in lands that could barely feed the native populations. There were very little supply lines. Soldiers were expected to win out on their fighting spirit alone (there is a specific Japanese term for this as I read in the book "Flyboys" but it escapes me at the moment). These Japanese soldiers were treated as "issen gorin" meaning "one yen, five rin" the cost of mailing a draft notice. That is to say, the average Japanese soldier was not treated as a human, rather he was treated as a postage stamp, and his training and life reflected that. So to, too often, did his treatment of the enemy, be it soldier or civilian. In the end, the Japanese atrocities in WWII shouldn't be surprising, given the environment that caused them.

Let me finally, FINALLY end by saying that war is hell. For all the horrid evil that Japan turned upon China during WWII, it was met two-fold upon them. The fire-bombings that took place (as committed by the United States) killed horrendously large amounts of the Japanese population and reduced a huge amount of the infrastructure to almost zero. Again... War is hell people. Lets not try to defend anybody in it. I am sickened by what my own country did to Japanese civilians during WWII with simple incendiary devices and I would hope that everyone would so to be sickened by the general destruction that took place. If you made it this far, thank you for sticking out my rambling arguments so long and I hope that my point is made... War is Hell. Nobody is Without Blame.

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Gregor,

Very well stated and I sincerely thank you for posting this.

The story of "Nanking" is but only one of too many in the history of man's inhumanity to man.

We need to examine the mechanisms that compel one group of humans to manifest the necessity to completely obliterate another group. This is the story of human conflict, of wars, of genocide and there are no easy answers.

Like you said, "war is hell"; to that might I add there are no victors, only victims in times of war.

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I like the term "war is hell" when used by those who have never "been to war". I love it when those with no knowledge (combat experience) use an atrocity like Nanking to promote their anti-war beliefs. In doing so, they totally disregard that the Japanese were intent on world conquest and China was a stepping stone. Had they been allowed to continue, along with their Nazi allies, they would have been successful. And none of us would have the freedom (if we were ever allowed to even be born) to watch these movies, or make our uninformed comments.

It is total ignorance to compare the horrors committed by the Nazis and the Japs to the few isolated incidents of Allied criminal acts.. The Allied Forces prosecuted those who did wrong, the Axis praised their criminals. AND still honor them.

That leads me to the bombing of Japan.. The Japs had committed horrible atrocities throughout the Pacific and were committed to doing even more, but as they were pushed back, they were prepared to continue the war on Jap soil. There were only two options. A conventional air/ground attack or the Atomic Bombs. Allied forces were preparing for the air/ground attack, when the decision was made to drop the bombs.

Had the air/ground attack been the choice, hundreds of thousands of Allied troops would have died (as well as hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops and hundreds of thousands of the dumb civilian sumbeaches that supported them. Japan would have been flattened, totally destroyed. Dropping the Bomb prevented more deaths than were caused by the Bomb and it caused the immediate surrender of Japan.. Saving hundreds of thousands of American and other Allied lives. Any one who thinks that more Americans needed to die to fight the barbarians does not have a clue as to what war is all about..

There was no WAR when the Japs embarked on their world conquest. They steamed rolled over an inferior Chinese military and slaughtered civilians, raping, looting, brutalizing hundreds of thousands.. some estimates say millions. The WAR began when Britain, America and other Allied Forces gave the JAPS and the NAZIS some "competition"..

WAR occurs when the good guys fight the bad guys.. and the good guys do not always win.. WWII is an example of the good guys winning..

Plato said "only the dead have seen the end of war".... War will exist as long as there is good and evil.. and the JAPS were the most evil sons of bitches the world has ever known, with possible competition from the NAZI bastards.

I do not believe the Japanese of today, or the Germans of today, could ever becme the slime that their Armies were in the 30's and 40's... but both countries have their radical groups that wish for it to happen again...

So be careful what you recommend re "no wars"... you might find yourself bowing to the Rising Sun flag, or goose stepping on the street...

Thank God there are those of us who are willing to fight against evil while the cowardly peace mongers are supporting those who would destroy us..

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And it's warmongers like you who make me wonder, if the bad guys stopped killing, would you still say killing is the only way? There are radical groups in this country with the same fascist leanings in those ones. I don't see the army out there stopping them.

Go to hell with your war. I'd rather die than fight alongside a war apologist. A real soldier agrees with the previous posters that there are no easy answers, and that fighting is undesirable and terrible. You had to fight a Nazi, then, because he was coming at you; that doesn't mean everyone's coming after us.

And if you say "Jap" that much in your personal life, I wonder that you haven't been punched out for it yet. And lay off the caps lock.

If you make me this sick, you're probably not doing too well in your personal life, either. Work on that. Also, work on things like charity and goodwill before you go around invoking the good name of God again, or you'll probably just piss Him off even more than you already do.

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I wouldn't call the last poster a 'warmonger', I would say he saw the very real threat to humanity (before & during WWII) and 'we' (America, Brtain, Canada, etc.) sought to stop the Japanese & German armies. And thank goodness they did.
As for "radical groups", certainly we have those in the form of radical islamic terrorists, who have a blood lust to kill Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims. Their suicide-bomb savagery has happened on American soil, in Spain and Britain, Kenya & Tanzania, and most-recently, in Moscow, Russia. I guess you think they are okay, and it's the rest of the world that 'caused' them to commit terrorist acts upon innocent civilian populations? Please defend your position.

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Okie, I was with you until a couple dumb comments undermined your excellent first paragraph.

War doesn't require "good and evil". Don't be naive. Blood has been shed over all kinds of material emptiness. Wars have been fought between evils and wars have been fought between forces of good (depending on where you stand). Humans are imperfect primates fueled by fervor and greed and mob mentality. Things get much worse when you throw in celestial righteousness.

Your use of the phrase "peace monger" makes you look stupid. That line doesn't even make sense on its face. It also negates the rest of your post, which I thought was basically "yes, war is miserable, but sometimes necessary" (e.g., Allied intervention). After reading your last few parochial paragraphs, it just sounds like you have a taste for blood. Which is it?

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You know your history. Some of these modern-day pacifists only want to hate the messenger, instead of blame the truly evil ones. Great post.

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[deleted]

That is such an appallingly pile of apologist crap. Classic line of argument, make seemingly valid points and extend the rationale beyond what is reasonable.

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You are stupid trying to defend a nation that rapes a million women many of those women children. Sure your point would make sense if the japs were just killing machines but japs were NOT killing machiens they were sadists and you defending a million sadists that tortured & raped a million women and children makes you one as well. Your ignorance towards the victims of all this horror makes me want to slap your face!
I Need To Know

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