Anyone who's bothered to read about Nanking knows this is probably the worst event of the 20th century.
So it makes me wonder, why are there so many films about jews and the holocaust and very little covering Nanking?
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It takes money to make films and there must also be a lucrative market for them.
In no particular order:
1) Most films have been made by westerners, to whom events in Europe are more salient.
2) There is quite stiff competition for “worst event of the 20th century.” If only your statement were true. In addition to the Holocaust, there are the activities of Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. Whether justified or not, the 1945 firebombing of Tokyo and the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan may have caused more misery. The purges of Stalin killed way more. Several offensives of World War II killed more. Famine in China killed orders of magnitude more, though that may not have been the intent.
3) The Holocaust itself killed perhaps 20 or 30 times as many Jews as Nanking, and as many as 50 times as many people overall died in concentration camps, not to mention the effects on the survivors who may have spent years being starved, held captive, and thinking that any day could be their last; this was accompanied by all of the same kinds cruelty as Nanking, including rapes, brutal murders, torture, child murder, and “medical” experimentation. The Holocaust was the single most brutal event during World War II, which if counted as a single event, would surely be the “worst” of the last century.
4) Although this doesn’t make Nanking any more morally justified, it could perhaps be explained as an excess accompanying war. In fact, there are many such examples through history, right up until the massacres of Darfur. The Holocaust was notable in that it actually probably impeded Hitler’s overall war effort. Whereas Nanking was a byproduct of Japan’s militarism combined with ethnic hatred, the extermination of the Jews (and Gypsys, and homosexuals, etc.) was the raison d’etre of the Holocaust.
5) The Holocaust contained certain dramatic elements, such as the carts transporting the prisoners, the specially built “showers,” etc., that were unusual, or were not a part of the Nanking story. Whereas Nanking had the Westerners overtly aiding the Nanking natives, and the Japanese soldiers as unambiguous bad guys, the circumstances of the Holocaust meant that many Germans and others secretly aided Jewish people. This has added an important story element to many, or even most, Holocaust films.
6) For separate reasons, in both China and Japan the subject was taboo until quite recently. The Holocaust sent more of its surviving victims abroad, including to that film and publishing capital, the United States, and partly led to the establishment of Israel, with attendant historical consequences.
The short answer is that the Holocaust killed and otherwise affected a far greater number of people, and secondarily that it took place in Europe.
i think why the original poster said that the rape of nanking made the holocaust look like a joke was because:
tho you said that the number of jews killed are many times more than people died/suffered in the rape of nanking, the people who died in the rape of nanking happened in a very short time. the duration for the massacre (the exact duration) can't be defined, but the whole thing, massacre + violence lasted for about 2 months plus. but since the violence lasted for 6 weeks, the massacre would then (estimated time) last for about 2 weeks.
if you do it by proportion, the numebr of people killed in such a short time in nanking, to the number of people killed over the course of XXX time during the holocaust, it would've roughly been the same, or maybe more for nanking.
numbers don't mean everything, looking at face value just like that, ie, 5 mil jews died during holocaust, and 300K chinese died in nanking, of course holocaust would be more of a greater tragedy because you're just looking at numbers. but it's not fair to compare because the period of which both happened, were so great of a difference.
if my data is wrong don't start flaming ey, i'm just estimating.
The Rwanda genocide took place only 14 years ago and happened in a very short time span as well: 100 days, in which they managed to kill between 500.000 and 1 million Tutsis and some moderate Hutus. Nobody remembers it of course, since it happened in Africa.
So my point is that even a large number of murders in a short time isn't important to how sad we feel about it. Location is key
Of course we remember the Rwandan massacre. They made a movie of it with that guy from Ocean's Eleven. ;-)
http://brookswashere.ytmnd.com/
Whats crazy is that, as mentioned in the documentary, there were LOTS of Nankings. It was perhaps the most brutal and poignant though, as it was the capitol city.
Overall, an estimated 10-20 million innocent Chinese civilians were believed to have been killed at the hands of the Japanese military, significantly exceeding the casualties of the holocaust. The extent of Japanese war atrocities committed throughout Asia (not just China) during this time helped earn it the moniker "The Asian Holocaust".
When people gripe about us dropping a-bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and causing ~300,000-500,000 innocent civilians dead, I try to mention the 10-20 million innocent civilians the Japanese killed, often times in much more gruesome ways.
My mother is from Kyushu, I'm half-Japanese.
Millions of Russians dies in WW2 far more than the Jews by a HUGE amount, you don;t hear a damm thing abou that, just the Jews.
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Considering the brutality of the Russians, which continued long after the war ended, (and goes on today) and what they did to Allied POWs, German POWs, their own people, etc.. who cares. I kind of agree with Patton opinion...
If you are Russian, you know what the country is like.. if you have not been to Russia, then you should talk to a few who are not afraid to talk about the slavery of Russians by Russians, political prisoners brutalized, etc..
If all you have is some text book and/or some professor's rendering of Russian History.. you don't know squat.
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You have got to be kidding me, right? And I also suspect that you are Jewish (or maybe Japanese), which then explains your post. But keep one main idea in mind before we begin a discussion. Nanking can be considered one event. The Holocaust encompasses EVERYTHING that happened to Jews during WWII. I don't call that "one event".
There is quite stiff competition for “worst event of the 20th century.” If only your statement were true. In addition to the Holocaust, there are the activities of Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. Whether justified or not, the 1945 firebombing of Tokyo and the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan may have caused more misery. The purges of Stalin killed way more. Several offensives of World War II killed more. Famine in China killed orders of magnitude more, though that may not have been the intent.
The Holocaust itself killed perhaps 20 or 30 times as many Jews as Nanking, and as many as 50 times as many people overall died in concentration camps, not to mention the effects on the survivors who may have spent years being starved, held captive, and thinking that any day could be their last; this was accompanied by all of the same kinds cruelty as Nanking, including rapes, brutal murders, torture, child murder, and “medical” experimentation. The Holocaust was the single most brutal event during World War II, which if counted as a single event, would surely be the “worst” of the last century.Do you even see the flaw in your logic? Why should the Holocaust be considered as ONE event? It's not! You wanna compare? How about comparing just one incident at Auschwitz with Nanking? That's more on equal footing. Even by your definition of "worst event", the Holocaust still isn't the worst (not that I don't think it was awful). We constantly get 7,000,000 Jews died shoved into our faces, but do you know the total body count for the Japanese invasion of China? I think it's somewhere between 15 to 20 million, and that's a conservative figure. Do you know how many Chinese died after Japan surrendered because they dropped bio weapons ON THEIR WAY OUT!!! It's gotta be ttens of millions. So looking at total body count, now tell me that 50x more Jews than Chinese died? And I haven't even mentioned the genocides in Africa yet.
...it could perhaps be explained as an excess accompanying war. The Holocaust was notable in that it actually probably impeded Hitler’s overall war effort. Whereas Nanking was a byproduct of Japan’s militarism combined with ethnic hatred, the extermination of the Jews (and Gypsys, and homosexuals, etc.) was the raison d’etre of the Holocaust.
The Holocaust contained certain dramatic elements, such as the carts transporting the prisoners, the specially built “showers,” etc., that were unusual, or were not a part of the Nanking story.
he short answer is that the Holocaust killed and otherwise affected a far greater number of people, and secondarily that it took place in Europe.
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Just as a quick note, I think what the previous poster mentioned about the famine in China, they were referring to the purposeful "famine" created by Mao during the "Great Leap Forward". It was a horrendous, fully planned, insane event that Mao was fully informed about, and because nobody wanted to be the one to stand up to him and TELL him his policies were insane, destructive, and just downright stupid, it went on for three years--the effects of which, however, are still felt in China today.
Anyway, I think *that* famine is what the poster was referring to and therefore it is somewhat comparable to the event at Nanking.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I thought the film, in several places, said nanking was simply a snapshot
of what was happening all over China. Certainly the two Lieutenants having
a "bayonet contest" was before Nanking in the film, and the film said this
was what happened in thousands/hundreds of cities and towns. The difference
was the tapes the Westerners smuggled out allowed the world to see it.
I can't see this as being worse than the holocaust, it simply is a holocaust,
in itself. The murders by the japanese were abjectly inhumane. To rape a pre-
pubescent girl, then twist a bayonet around in her gut 'til she died is sub-
human. Same/similar events wer repeated, and documented hundreds of times, by
the westerners. Again, this is only what eight people saw. Imagine what they
didn't see.
I'd certainly rather be herded into a gas chamber than killed in such a
horrific manner. or even see it.
There are multiple other trajedies, Kosovo, Bosnia, Kurds, etc.
If we go back to the rape and disembowling of the young girls, this is a
deeply personal act. Shooting someone less so, gassing someone less yet,
and releasing bombs the least. Obviously a 500lb bomb or incendiary causes
the most damage! But what kind of person can rape someone then bayonet them,
in a most malicious sadistic manner? What kind of people, corprals, Sergeants,
lieutentants, and so on can stand by and watch, or take part?
You can train a monkey to press a button, but prolly not to bayonet another
monkey. So in this way, some of the actions described are as horrific as you
can get.
Dresden was horrible, but did 18yo Airman First Class Schmedlap really do
the same thing as a Japenese PFC? No. He didn't have a choice, get in your
plane, buckle up, and he didn't even know where he was going or doing. The
political and military high command, however ...
The Japenese sadistically experimented w/ chemical/biological weapons on the
Chinese populace. Read "A higher form of Killing." They set up many labs just
to produce differnt toxins, and in some cases used aircraft to disperse the
weapons. We forgave many technicians, brought them to America to learn from
them ...
The question was alluded to, was this of military necessity? The Japenese
soldier said they needed to be killed for logistics reasons. Certainly in
many types of war, you want to bring the fight to the populace so they bring
political pressure on their government. Brutality is used to tie up roads w/
refugees and keep the enemy resupply routes tied up. Massacres and rapes of this sort didn't add to the military, or political objective. (Obviously not
a sanctioned tactic by geneva) They were simply done from hatred, racial
and as the film said, the soldiers were bored.
I do think the japenese people had more sadistic attitude than most, not that
these things didn't happen (and still happen) w/ other countries, but certainly
not on a scale w/ this degree of in humanity. I think they should have not
dropped the A-bombs when we did. We should have continued to bomb japan until
it was totally on it's knees. You rarely find a reasonable German who would
agree w/ the holocaust, many have apologized to me, as if it was somehow
against me. Germany ceased to exist at the end of the war.
japan was allowed to keep it's emporor.
in any case, this movie, the holocaust, Armenia, kosovo, Darfur, Rawanda make
me ask the question of us, and myself; what are WE capable of? I eschew
nationalism and any type of government corruption/unlawfulness.
Im a jew, Nanking was as bad as the Holocost.
But you cant really compare horrific events. Genocide sucks.
web show: www.youtube.com/thezollybeckershow
profile:
www.myspace.com/hisgreatnessthez
This whole thing depresses the hell out of me. What's even worse is that there are some who think this was justified or it didn't exist.
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Of course it is all terrible and yes Genocide really does suck!
Jewish, Chinese Russian or whoever nobody can deny that historical accounts and the various media to this day have been heavily loaded in favour of the Jewish peoples account more than anyone else, by no coincidence it is well known that the Jewish have always had a strong influence (or more) on Hollywood media and media in general. Now, wether by Design or coincidence is up to the individual to decide. I guess whoever had a large influence in these mediums would do the same thing no matter where they are from.
The real downside is though if the History writers and the movie makers do such things and biast one peoples more than another then the Truth will never be known and the same old sh*t will just keep happening because you only learn things through truth not propaganda and loaded accounts.
Guess that is exactly what is going on now, just look at the World around us, we have not learned a thing.
"If we go back to the rape and disembowling of the young girls, this is a
deeply personal act. Shooting someone less so, gassing someone less yet,
and releasing bombs the least. Obviously a 500lb bomb or incendiary causes
the most damage! But what kind of person can rape someone then bayonet them,
in a most malicious sadistic manner? What kind of people, corprals, Sergeants,
lieutentants, and so on can stand by and watch, or take part?
You can train a monkey to press a button, but prolly not to bayonet another
monkey. So in this way, some of the actions described are as horrific as you
can get. "
I just watched this movie on Hulu and was pondering why I found the Japanese soldiers so repulsive; a stronger, and more terrifying feeling than I've ever felt watching Holocaust documentaries, or other genocide documentaries (maybe I've seen/read of too few). Even casting aside the fact that I am of Chinese descent, the Japanese atrocities felt different from the great number of deaths from the concentration camps, and the A-bombs.
You nailed it. Because, it may be easy to pull a trigger on a gun. It may be easy to press a button to trigger a gas chamber and not look into a victim's eyes when they are locked inside as their lungs crumble. But...how easy is it to rape someone, hear their pitiful screams for help, render them apart with a bayonet in your own hands, blood pouring...and still enjoy it? Enjoy it, and repeat it again, possibly an hour later or the next day? What kind of culture can train its people to enjoy such cruel torture?
Torture is vastly different from mindless killing. You know how some people rationalize the Bush administration's torture of alleged terrorists for information? I can understand that. There is no such rationalizing here. The Japanese soldiers did it out of boredom - for fun. It's chilling. The Japanese stripped away the dignity of the people they killed before death was granted, death in some of the most painful ways possible.
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Shut up dude
the holocaust was industrial extermination whereas the Nanjing massacre
was a sudden burst of animal instinct and uncontrolable violence
The holocaust was far more evil in every way than Nanjing.
Why is there a need to compare horrific events? Why do we need to determine which one was "the worst event of the 20th century"?
To sit and add up the numbers killed during the amount of time, as one poster did, as if that somehow determines the extent of the atrocity, is almost sickening.
The 20th century was not a good time to be alive for a good part of the globe. I think we can leave it at that, and not descend into "my genocide is worse than your genocide" debates.
And personally, I think you would have started a much better conversation had you not titled your thread the way did. NOTHING can make the Holocaust look like a joke, I don't care how horrific it was.
As far as the question about films being made about one event and not many about the other, I think first you have to consider where the events occurred, and the course of the 20th century following WWII. Japan was an ally, China was not. And I imagine it was much easier to study and research the Holocaust. Sometimes it takes awhile for history to catch up with popular consciousness.
I suspect this thread was simply an emotional, knee jerk reaction to really learning what happened in Nanking for the first time. But try telling a Holocaust survivor that what they went through was a joke. That thread title is disgusting.
the holocaust was overtold and the germans had already apologized
the nanking massacre was not and the japanese did not apologize
the nazi's, a political party, committed the war crimes
but those who committed war crimes in nanking are japanese ground forces
20 million Chinese Deaths
16,200,000 (Civilian deaths)
Military Deaths (3,800,000)
7 million jews if ur looking at the whole picture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country
Of course not all these were due to japanese troops alone but famine and other things, i think the chinese have a bigger picture to tell but it
Really shows u what the Japanese people were getting at, at least in germany they gas you and let u die with dignity, painless. Japanese troops use babies for stabbing practice and rape 2 year old girls or how would u like to be hanged with a pole going through your rectum left to die? no wonder their culture is so perverse even up until today, and its not just an isolated incident the koreans and philippines know well too.
Please have the respect for humantiy NOT to use a piece of shi*e like Wikipedia as if it was a factual resource of information it is bulls*it and should be torn down as it skews and buggers up peoples perception of truth and is so openly manipulated and abused.
You do yourself and everyone a disservice by quoting such disreputable sources.
omg thank you for saying that...would you believe some universities actually accept wikipedia as valid source reference now? Something's gotta be done, disinformation on that scale is just as bad as burning books.
http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Science/Antiwikipedia/Section_I.html
- Just remember you are unique, just like everyone else -
Oh, get over yourself. Your argument was stale five years ago. Wikipedia is heavily sourced and constantly monitored. Particularly when it comes to historical reference. Weasel words and personal points of view are not allowed.
Wikis use the same raw material you would hoist up yourself. The organization of that information is simply democratized and kept in check. If you don't believe a figure, you can look at supporting URLs and ISBNs. Every day editors update information and increase reliability with added resources. It's not some mutable mob approximation of truth as hipster skeptics like you want to believe.
Yes, dimwits can sabotage a page momentarily, but their IPs are quickly banned and the article is corrected within minutes, often seconds -- especially with highly trafficked topics like WWII. Wikipedia is far more accurate than random, biased, ranting URLs you'll often find linked in forums, anyway.
All that aside... care to refute the numbers? I think you'll have a very hard time.
So in honor of "the respect for humantiy", where are we supposed to get our information from...a Japanese history book? Oh I'm sure they're much more credible than Wikipedia...NOT!
Wikipedia may not be 100% accurate all the time, but for the bulk of it, the info is on target. Besides, do you seriously think...like a Japanese history book is goona be true to the horrendous atrocities they, themselves, committed? So what ends up having more credibility?
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I dunno if you've been corrected yet or not but to clarify....the poster never meant the holocaust was literally a joke. Relax and stop being so confrontational.
The literal meaning of "this makes the holocause look like a joke" is a manner of saying the author takes nothing lightly, removes no importance or seriousness from the Nazi holocause, but is expressing that the Nanking event had deeply effected him/her more than the Nazi holocaust. Just that persons feelings, and in my opinion flaming the thread title in such a manner is a near fallacious act distracting focus from the true meaning the author was trying to express
I suspect your response was obviously an emotional, knee jerk reaction and I'm ashamed I felt compelled to correct you because I've further contributed to the distraction.
The OP is just a troll but for everyone else the point is this:
Nobody was that shocked or surprised by Japanese brutality in China because nobody expected the Japanese to be civilized humanists. This rape of Nanking was pretty much considered typical of Asians.
The holocaust on the other hand was committed by Austrians and Germans, the cultures that brought us Mozart, Bach, Kant, Goethe etc. How could the people at the pinnacle of civilization so suddenly become deprived and turn their cutting edge industries into death factories and their art into propaganda for racism and hate.
That's what makes the holocaust shocking, if the most cultured, civilized people on the planet can turn into murderous monsters, how close are we to following the path the Germans and Austrians took?
Seems that 12 million Indians were exterminated in America ?
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
You're sorely begging the question by asserting that Austrians and Germans held a more advanced civilization than the Japanese. I think you'll have a harder time proving that premise than you think.
Reality is simpler. Westerners care about westerners. That's why we don't focus on Nanking or other non-white atrocities. Humans are naturally parochial.
Please tell me this is a joke. Germans & Austrians were the most cultured? If you seriously believe that, may I suggestt world history 101?
shareThere is a bit of a weirdness about the whole Pacific period.
During the Rape the US were there, this was a matter of public record, then over shadowed by WWII, but we have never seen films about this period of time. Also everyone in China at the time basically says this was the worse incident, in a sphere of influnce campaign, so it would be very interesting to see how many died all told, and not just in this one event.
U571 always amazes me, the true story is this amazing story, but lets make it the Amercians, and it all happened at once.
Clint Eastwood just did it, you want to tell amazing war stories, have a look at some of the Pacific land battles.
If you ever want an interesting look at the way the Holocaust is viewed, go to the Anna Frank museum, and then go to another museum about the war in the same country.
I tend to agree with the statement that you cannot compare these events.
There are a lot of massacres/holocausts that we do not know or talk about.
To give some examples: -
The tribesmen in Vietnam
Katyn Forest
The period of Taliban control
The African Side of the Slave Trade
The French colibrators during WWII
Native Americans
Indigenous Australians
The none Jews in the Holocaust
On the other hand I do not think anyone has ever, or hopefully ever will raise the dealing of extinction to a single group of people, to the level of the Nazis.
Any mass atrocity committed is awful but one that is glossed over or forgotten entirely is an affront to humanity.
There are two quotations that sum up this whole debate:-
"Comparisons are odious" - Anon
"Who remembers the Armenians" - Adolf Hitler
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