MovieChat Forums > Nanking (2007) Discussion > 'No massacre in Nanking,' Japanese lawma...

'No massacre in Nanking,' Japanese lawmakers say

posted 17 years ago by testarc2000
61 replies | jump to latest

This is just outrageous.

================

head of the group said documents from the Japanese government's archives indicated that about 20,000 people were killed.

why don't they modify their archives again to show no people was killed. And US archives show no atomic bombs were ever dropped on Japan either.

================================================

About 100 Japanese governing party lawmakers denounced the Nanjing Massacre as a fabrication on Tuesday, contesting Chinese claims that Japanese soldiers killed hundreds of thousands of people after seizing the Chinese city in 1937.

The members of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's Liberal Democratic Party said there was no evidence to prove mass killings by Japanese soldiers in the captured Nationalist capital, then known as Nanking. They accused Beijing of using the alleged incident as a "political advertisement."

Nariaki Nakayama, head of the group created to study World War II historical issues and education, said documents from the Japanese government's archives indicated that about 20,000 people were killed - about one-tenth of the more commonly cited figure of 150,000 to 200,000 - in the 1937 attack. China says that as many as 300,000 people were killed.

Nanjing suffered a rampage of murder, rape and looting by Japanese troops that became known as "The Rape of Nanking."

Historians generally agree that the Japanese Army slaughtered at least 150,000 civilians and raped tens of thousands of women.

Nakayama said the study, which was initiated in part because this year is the 70th anniversary of the battle, determined there was no violation of international law.

Toru Toida, another member of the group, demanded that photographs portraying the Japanese military in a negative light be removed from Chinese war memorials.

"We are absolutely positive that there was no massacre in Nanking," Toida said.

[–] mustard_man_999 17 years ago

'"We are absolutely positive that there was no massacre in Nanking," Toida said.'

lol thats helarious its like: 'yea there was no massacre, they er, kinda just all died...'

[–] sb3557 17 years ago

The Jap govt are pathetic in this case! They make themselves look so stupid - why don't they just admit to what they did and try and move on. Also if anyone is interested in the Nanking massacre, then check out the film "Black Sun - The Nanking Massacre" - it's quite brutal (as to be expected from the guy who made "Men Benhind The Sun"). Also read the boook "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang - it's a moving book and really goes into detail as to what exactly the Jap army did during the invasioin back 1937.

[–] brierside 16 years ago

Nothing can refute the history, of what happened... It shall never be erased in time. For there will be people who will remember and will pass on the event to the world, next generation and beyond. No matter how painful the memory. How far away the victims. They will always be remembered and known, for the eternity.

[–] john_faraer 17 years ago

'No nuclear weapon is ever invented' UN lawmakers say, and bang, we humans are never under the menance of nuclear wars, IF ONLY they were powerful MAGICIANS of such Japanese lawmakers......

[–] pkso8028 17 years ago

No Nanking massacre? Oh, well. Then there is no Holocaust, no Pearl Harbor, no Japanese "comfort women" in Korea, no ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, no genocide in Sudan, and no atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And no 9/11 in New York city. How convenient! We human beings just enjoy living in peace.

[–] tomcat69w 17 years ago

Only recently have I become aware of this Tragedy through a book "The War of the World" and have been voraciously searching this topic on the net. Wikipedia has one of the better links here on this subject and graphic photos of Japanese beheading Australian Soldier's & Chinese civilians, as well as numerous photos of dead women raped & murdered. The documentary poised here should be even more enlightening to this injustice to humanity. Be aware, the photos at Wikipedia may more than likely turn your stomach as they did mine,...there are photos of two Japanese Lt.'s who had a bet of who could Kill
the most Chinese with their Swords. It's almost incomprehensible that something of this magnitude could go so unnoticed by so many for so long. I had heard many stories of WWII growing up as I was born just 9 years after it was over and am just shocked that the Japanese will not admit to this massacre. It's right there in B&W for ALL the World to see, and evidently it was this atrocity that originally began to pull Roosevelt & U.S. into the War. Pearl Harbor was the straw that broke the Camel's back. Almost unbelieveable that this happened. I used to feel 'Bad' about Truman's decision to Drop the Bomb,...not anymore! Unfortunately Crap like this is still going on today I.E. Iraq, Afghanistan, Dufar,...etc. etc. Just plain SICK!!! May God Help Us ALL!

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

[–] aac50070 17 years ago

'I used to feel 'Bad' about Truman's decision to Drop the Bomb,...not anymore'

Oh,don't jump to the conclusion. A group of people killed another group of people with nukes. A group of people killed another group of people in Nanking.Take a close look. Those victims in Nanking and Hiroshima were both innocent civilians,weren't they?

It's wrong to justify the nukes simply because the victims were of the same race with the Nanking soldiers. That way of thinking led to the Holocaust, didn't it?

[–] tomcat69w 17 years ago

Yes yer right, and thanks for helping me put that back in perspective. It is/was Horrendous though, and I don't know how old you are, but I am 52 and grew up hearing those ugly word's like JAP & Nig---,....and to this day I struggle to let those word's become non-existant from my vocabulary. You should become a Diplomat,....very cool response and I thank you and praise you for your insight. God Bless & Rock On!

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

[–] aac50070 17 years ago

tomcat:

Thank you for your kind reply,which surprised me as the internet is full of emotional messages. I'm Japanese,and like many people on this thread I cannot believe that our lawmakes,not all though, deny the Nanking massacre.

It seems to me that their blind love of the nation prevents them from facing the truth. They must realize that their ancestors' blind love dragged the nation into that cruel war.

As you know, after ww2,Japan has been a nation of victims as well as culprits. Since so many people were forced to live a miserable life, they tend to see themselves not as wrongdoers but as poor victims. This attitude causes problems because for the rest of the world Japan was the absolute wrongdoer. Seeing things from an objective point of view seems very difficult to some of the Japanese people.

Thank you again.

[–] tomcat69w 17 years ago

Dear aac50070,...You are welcome, but now I worry if you have been hurt by that Nuclear plant that was destroyed in the latest Earthquake? I don't know if you live here in the States or in Japan. But was worried for you none the less. It is sad that there are so many uncaring and idiotic responses on this sight. Maybe with a touch of yours & my humanity, we can make a small change. Rock On! rsvp so I know you're ok. K?

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

[–] aac50070 17 years ago

tomcat san :

Thank you for your comment on the earthquake. The nuclear plant was not
destroyed,but there was a leak of radioactive water into the sea.

I am angry about the reaction of the TEPCO( Tokyo Electric Power CO)
It took several hours for them to reveal the fact. This counry seems to be corrupt with the custom of hiding things.

I live in Japan,but away from the plant. I appreciate your kind words.

Have a nice day

[–] hahabeast 17 years ago

Hey aac50070 you're pretty cool. I totally agree with that civilians are all innocent and that's the opinion I've always been having! I mean it's really stupid to blame on civilians or spread hatred against a race or stuff like that when government has done something wrong, you know. Well I'm Chinese, :) I've been hearing about the WW2 and Naking since I was little and I understand how some Chinese people feel about it. I don't know if you have heard about some people in China, who're so stupid that they just hate everything about Japan, they hate Japanese people so much and they even hurt them and stuff...Omg I mean, that was so wrong and that actually made me sick too. Well that was when Japan had the new version of History textbook passed (what is it called.. Fuso? Yeah I think you know what I'm talking about) Anyway it was like 2004 or something, the situation's much better now though. But you know, there' always some bullheaded retarded people..you know, just ignore them :P And I used to argue a lot with some people who were not smart enough to understand that a governments could be culprits, but their civilians will never be. :) Well I'm glad to know you here. Have a good one.

[–] aac50070 17 years ago

hi,hahabeast.

'I don't know if you have heard about some people in China, who're so stupid that they just hate everything about Japan, they hate Japanese people so much and they even hurt them and stuff'

Yes,I know that.I don't think they are stupid.I understand how they feel about
what the Japanese troops did. But one thing clear to me is hurting themselves or breaking things is not a clever way to express their anger.

If they continue to do that, I am afraid that they will end up giving a wrong
impresson to international society that some Chinese people are violent and cannot control themselves.I think what they must do is getting support from the international community so that the rest of the world will help China to demand apologies from the Japanese government.

And please remember.There are many Japanese people,not all though,who seriously think that Japan and China must start more constructive relations,
but our government is not smart enough to understand that.

BTW I hate the histroy textbook of Fuso. Terrible book.

[–] roze_86 11 years ago

aac50070, agree with you and hahabeast entirely wish there were more openminded people like you

[–] roze_86 17 years ago

Hahabeast,

Thank you so much for this. Im glad that there are more inteligent people out there, who dont generalise. I understand how the Chinese feel(im british studying chinese and living in China married to a chinese speaking Japanese), but it really hurts me too when they generalise and hate everything Japanese including innocent people, when it sreally the government they should be angry with. There are stupid people everywhere who generalise like that. Your response is the most sensible one ive read, xiexie ni!:) and tomcat and aac, yor responses are sensible too. You three are some of the most sensible ones ive met on imdb to date.

Peace!:)/

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] mojo2u 16 years ago

Oh,don't jump to the conclusion. A group of people killed another group of people with nukes. A group of people killed another group of people in Nanking.Take a close look. Those victims in Nanking and Hiroshima were both innocent civilians,weren't they?
----------------------------------------------------------------

The victims of Pearl Harbor were also victims. It is nice to see the Japanese navy (every time they're in port in Hawaii) pay tribute to the fallen innocent victims of that infamous day on December 7th.

Without Pearl Harbor, there probably wouldn't have been a Hiroshima.

[–] denny-47 16 years ago

Dropping the bomb killed many too, and it is very hard to be non-biased and at the same time justify one over the other. Killing and rape are considered wrong in our society, but not as bad in some other societies. I guess the bottom line, is what is best over all, which is like saying the end justifies the means. The Americans did a lot of bad things to the Indians, and we initiated scalping etc. Our history is pretty bad, and we are still doing it to some extent today in places like Iraq, with no real justification. But I have noticed that the Japanese do tend to lean towards more violence, even today. You can see it many places, like in their porn movies filled with bondage, much more than here in the US. If you wants real feel for the human race, just watch Wild Kingdom, and we are not as much different than the rest of the animal kingdom as we think

[–] Achoo42 7 years ago

This is really late...but the atomic bombs were dropped to initiate surrender of the Japanese. The rape of Nanking was done AFTER the capitol had already fallen (that is, Nanking). If the atomic bombs weren't dropped, who KNOWS how many more American, British, and Japanese soldiers + civilians would've died in the land invasion that would follow. Estimates say anywhere from one to ten million soldiers, far dwarfing the deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Many civilians there probably would've died anyways from collateral damage.
The rape of Nanjing is inexcusable. It was done for fun, not for any political or strategic agenda.

[–] drywontonmee 17 years ago

I'm an expat Brit in Malaysia, and since I've recently come to learn of what happened in Nanking and elsewhere and seen and heard enough evidence to have no reason at all to doubt it, I've come to a very firm decision:

Until the Japanese government officially publicly acknowledge the true scale and nature of the atrocities, and formally apologise fully to the people of Nanking, China, Philippines and elsewhere in a way appropriate to those peoples' cultures, I will strive to not buy anymore Japanese products. I will do this for the rest of my life until it happens. I will encourage others to do the same.

Compensation is not an issue. The acknowledgment of the facts and appropriate apologies for the crimes are CRITICAL - without it they are putting no distance at all between themselves and the horrific actions of the soldiers and officers of seventy years ago. Without an apology, buying a Sony, Sharp, NEC mobile phone is like putting the money straight into the hands of those raping, torturing, murdering soldiers.

I was going to buy a Sony Vaio - now I'm going to get a non-Japanese laptop instead.

Don't buy while they deny !

[–] hahabeast 17 years ago

naive

[–] shiigamoto 17 years ago

Seriously, "Punishing" a nation's economy because of its governments' stance (and fringe rightist groups at that) is very strange. Are you implying that Sony is responsible for the Nanjing massacres? Surely you realize that Sony is a global corporation. Buy the laptop that best suits your needs. The free market won't care less about your politics. CocaCola developed Fanta for Nazi Germany in WWII, the VW beetle is a symbol of liberal, baby-boomer, rock-n-roll culture, even though it was originally developed in the Nazi era as the perfect light military car, that carried Nazi elites, and could survive all kinds of grueling conditions and never break.

The more we interconnect global economies in this matter, the less of a reason we have for invading eachother and killing eachother. The incentives that led Japan to invade China in the first place all derived from a desire for total economic autonomy, a kind of modern-age mercantilism. It was that kind of Economic sanction you describe that caused the Pacific war to begin with!

I don't mean to offend, but the kind of thinking in your post is very silly.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] drywontonmee 17 years ago

There is a very big difference between Germany today and Japan today:

The government and education system of Germany DO NOT DENY the extent and nature of its crimes against humanity (in fact it is a crime in that country to do so) whereas Japan's government DOES DENY the extent and nature of its crimes against humanity. This is why I'm more than happy to fully support and engage with Germany economically, but personally boycott Japan's economy as much as I'm able.

It's nothing to do with 'punishing'. There are very few ways a person can influence the actions of governments. In your own country, you can vote, outside of your own country you can vote with your money. Many say a vote doesn't count for much, but I do it anyway. Here you lot are saying how I choose to spend my money doesn't count for anything, especially as most people aren't bothered or think like you about economic boycotts.

I assume you all were against the economic boycotting of apartheid South Africa as a way of signalling to that people that their politics ought to change for the good of humanity and putting SOME pressure on their government to that end?

I remember that boycotting was a contentious issue then too. I don't think it's a sign of the application of reasoning when people resort to calling people we disagree with ''naive', 'silly', 'ridiculous', 'stupid' or 'embarassing'.

Firstly, I say again: it's about the Japanese government continuing to DENY the nature and extent of Japan's crimes against humanity. Germany does NOT (besides a minority outside of government) deny theirs. All of your responses to my initial post completely miss this central point to my approach and resort to personal insults rather than engage with this missed point.

Secondly: it's about me doing what little I can to avoid supporting a country whose GOVERNMENT continues to DENY these atrocities. Democratic governments and political parties are sustained by votes and party donations (inc businesses such as Sony). Boycotting is a way of exerting some influence by waking people up to the issues and global disgust via economic challenge in the hope that they will in turn exert some pressure on the govenment to change policy. It's really not a new or unusual way of campaigning.

I am completely aware there are probably too few people globally who take my approach to make the slightest difference. But, hey, guess what? I'm doing that thing they used to call 'following your conscience' before they changed it to 'being silly'.

I'll stick to my boycott thank you, until the Japanese government cease their denials.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] drywontonmee 17 years ago

It's such a shame, cbr1000, that you nearly touched upon an interesting point but you sort of ruin it with a personal insult that drags down not only the quality of debate but also how other people regard your own arguments.

Nevertheless, besides Baudrillardonlylooksdead's fair response, there is the question of how we might approach countries who are CURRENTLY engaged in activities that we might find objectionable, as opposed to past activities which are now denied (which is the subject of this thread).

As I have pointed out, I'm a Brit, and my native government has been and is currently in support of the USA's Iraq war, which I happen to be against. I express my disapproval with my vote and other campaigning when possible. In relation to the US, that is quite interesting because there is CURRENTLY a very broad movement, maybe even a 'groundswell' in that country which is anti-Iraq-war and there is an imminent regime change in the offing. In practical terms it seems to me that it is more pragmatic to see how the internal politics of that country develops whilst maintaining a vocal and electoral opposition to the Iraq war. I have to say, if the Bush administration stays in this time, and the foreign policy remains the same, then I would be definitely effecting a personal economic boycott of the USA.

As it is, I see no comparable movement for change on the Nanking & elsewhere, 'comfort'-women, Unit 731 etc atrocities-denial coming from WITHIN Japan, compared with the strengthening anti-war movement in the USA.

Interestingly, Albright of the US Government DID apologise to the Iranians just seven years ago (one year prior to 9/11) for the USA involvement in the coup that overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953 via Operation Ajax (we can see the fall-out of that developing well now). I find it very, very sad that Britain has not made similar apologies for its involvement in those events. I would therefore respect anyone who decided to boycott my country economically until it made such acknowledgements/apologies, according to their conscience.

Do you see, cbr1000? It is possible to make a point without making personal insults. It's also possible to admit that the country of one's birth may have done some bad things. I think it would be GOOD for the UK to apologise to Iran. Now is not the best of times, perhaps, they should have done it years ago, but it needs to be done. It was a big, bad thing.

By the way, I'm no Kate Moss, but I'm by no measure 'obese'.

[–] the_franchise_25 17 years ago

cbr has a good point, the stupid arrogant son of a bit*h americans didnt apologiize for thier war crimes, which is y terroits want to bomb them, but japan is a diff case. They murdered chinese people the most brutal way possible, and for the woman, they'd rape them, make them take pronographic pictures, and the moutherfuc*king japs would take it as a souvenier, then humilate the woman, and bury them alive. and all this the Japanese government denies!!! there are a lot of films and book surrounding this incident. The chinese people hate the japanese people and have boycotted their exports. and since china has 1/5 of world's population, japans economy slowly fell. then again, in north america, people are buying japanese products like crazy, which meaning you are supporting the country. dumb americans who support a sick fiflty country. my last point, in moder cultures and societies, people think of Japan as heaven and chinese as a trash place, when in movies, the chinese people always wear dirty and poor clothes, and japan as this industrialized country. but the fact is that china is actully better than japan, just say hong kong for example.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] the_franchise_25 17 years ago

i can not doubt what you said, but i can explain to you why that happend, the goverment was trying to give more food to the people, tried to give the people better standards of living, but since it was a time of change, and knowledge was not that well back then, they violated the laws of nature, so which means they messed up, and when governments mess up, people die. BUT... the intetions were good, its just that they didnt have the knowledge and the technologies to achive their goals, look at China now, they're quality of life is at least 10x better than 10 years ago. you can't use modern standards to measure old times.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] trapsoldier102 17 years ago

Chine is a inferior country.

It's not even democracy.

It's tyranny & there is no freedom of opinion.

It's like the time of Qin Shi Huang.

Hmmmm....you mean kinda like Japan during World War 2?
P.S. It's spelled "China"

Prepare for the flame of your life.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jaculainen 16 years ago

I think you are absolutely correct and I will too do the same.

Japanese play down their horrendous war-crimes and falsify history. Especially unit 731 with its chemical and biological warfare program and Mengele-style human experiments needs to be brought to light.

When Japan does what Germany did and sincerely admits its wrongdoings it will become a civilized country like Germany now is. Until that Japan is a nation without honor.

[–] MoooVee 16 years ago

to those people who think not buying a japanese product will help ... that's useless ... don't buy German products either because they did some "bad" stuff too

ok, it's 2008, inciting hatred is wrong, but acknowledging something happened is morally right ... otherwise american history books should be corrected to show that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just small BBQ's that burned a bit out of control

yes, we all distrust the government, but the citizens need to take some blame, they elected those officials ... all that is required for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and do nothing

[–] fvernic 16 years ago

Good to hear a Brit who hasn't lost 'sight'.
1/505 LRSU 81-89

[–] megatosspot 16 years ago

that the Japanese people will remain dead inside until they face reality. How many more soulless generations?

[–] ruolingw 17 years ago

Yes they would.

And sad thing is, there are a lot of "innocent" civilians like aac50070 in Japan who condole it, and consequently enable it. Seventy years ago, it is the same innocence that drove the nation to brutality. aac50070, your nation is made of ordinary people like yourself. Japan is considered THE democratic nation state in the far east by Western standards and your country DOES have general elections. However, don't you find it odd that one government after another every one of your elected prime ministers, lawmakers have been CONSISTENTLY denying the wrong-doings and refuse to redeem yourselves?!

For people who compare this issue to Iraq, the fundamental difference is there are heated debates and grass-root movements in America to condemn the Bush administration and "ordinary people" trying to redeem the wrong-doings of the government they elected. However there are very such grass-roots movement in Japan. And there are solid evidences that probably the next US government would quickly change course. And how long have Asian people waited for such a change of political course from Japan and it never happened? Seventy long years! And it does not seem like it will EVER happen judging by the way the people and the government behave. So stop playing innocent!!! If the collective representatives of a country, a nation, given seven decades, still can't reach a consensus on such a clear-cut case judged by any decent human being, then it suggests something seriously, fundamentally ODD - to say the least - about that culture's DNA composition. Yes the Japanese government is *beep* up, and they try to *beep* up the younger Japanese people - generations to come - as well by covering up the facts, however, in my opinion, the "innocent" people are also *beep* up. The argument that "It was 70 years ago. I feel bad for you but I can't help", and "It is my government and I have nothing to do with it" is, burying your ostrich's head deep in the sand. By surrendering your power to positively influence your government on this issue, you consciously made a decision to aid in the on-going dispicable behaviour of your government.

And as drywontonmee pointed out, the COLLECTIVE approach that the German government, and the German people for that matter, (of course there are always individuals with views and actions fall between all spectrum of two extremes however we are looking at an qualitatively identifiable pattern, a general course), took towards the Holocaust in the after-math is completely different from the cowardice demonstrated by Japan, collectively, as both a nation state and a people.

I am Chinese but lived in Japan for 8 years. I have a lot of Japanese friends and I get on really well with them all. Everybody is lovely. It puzzles me from time to time that how the sum of each innocent, friendly behaving individuals can be such a monstrous brutality under certain circumstances - this should never happen under ANY circumstances. I don't have any clear answer. But I do think, somehow, that "innocence" just, sort of, sometimes, rather cowardly, lets monstrous things happen when humanity/history demands its interference to stop it.

[–] mrfchung 16 years ago

ruolingw,

You have lived in Japan 8 years and you still don't understand their culture?
"Face" is some important to Japanese then their own life. They would provide low interests loans to China after WWII, they would compensate for things. But you want them to say sorry to other countries for and admit that they did a not of bad things? they would rather die. It will never happen.

[–] ephemeral-eternities 16 years ago

Then have them die.

All your face-saving is immaterial when placed next to mass murder.

[–] brierside 16 years ago

How interesting... this is the first ever post on the IMDB on this firm.

BY testarc2000

WHO said very carefully that

'No massacre in Nanking,' Japanese lawmakers say

The very first, one must rememember... wow, how far can they track.

Yes, the technology is very advanced in Japan. Despite of negative profile of Chinese government's extensity, the technology has its own previliges.

But, who cares about what happened to these people in NanKing? Whom indeed??? While the albanians still begrudged against Turks of the massacre one hundred hundred years ago, the Chinese should bury their own dead andlet the raped silenced in the most horrifying history of the mankind. Wow? who the hell the the testarc2000? Is he Japanese? Has he ever viewed the film? It is not just Documentary. I need to point out that there are not only voices of the Chinese, but many foreigners, including Japaneses, themselves.

In truth, I never wanted to watch this film. It was too depressing, but what was ... what happened. People who suffered through them, want us to know before they die out.

I am afraid to even voice for them. It is horrible... of what happened. And I am afraid to even finish the entire film.

Anyone who is doubting of the verity of truth, should at least give this a benefit of doubt. I feel to advise you that you must possess a brave heart to endure. It is not something pleasant. Worse, much, much worse than Schindler's list, 'cause souls were not saved...

I watched and cried, even though I was prepared to 'cry'. It was sooo much. As if when I cry, the people who sufferred get some relieves. Not all, no justice can ever be restored for them. They were long gone, and this is but a vestige of cries.

And little justice has been ever 'known' to the world.

Be warned. If you don't feel like, that you should continue, you can (like me) stop where you like.

It is too much for any soul to bear. That is why I claimed that I felt so afraid, Yet so compeled to let it be known. Wish you understand?

Amy

[–] gmluvlm04 16 years ago

Like the Americans about the dropping of the atomic bomb. They keep on telling the lie that it help end the war. Even the top US generals fighting the war said there was no need to use the bombs. Japan has been surrending several days before the first bomb was dropped. Hiroshima and Nagasaki is really the first victims of the Cold War. The bombs are just to warn the Soviets to stay out of Japan. And it was mass murder if you ask me. I hope the Americans stopped looking at themselves like their squeaky clean. Cause history shows otherwise.

[–] scion9 16 years ago

That is patently untrue. Anyone that thinks that the Japanese government was surrendering doesn't understand how the Imperial Government worked. The people trying to offer the victors of the war terms for their own surrender had absolutely no legal authority to do so. Only the Supreme War Council, or the Emperor could tell the military to stand down, and in the case of the Council a unanimous vote was needed. Those trying to get terms for surrender from the Soviets had no power in the government to do so, and the Soviets and the rest of the Allies were aware of this.

Being that the Allies were offering no terms, had the Emperor intervened of his own accord, the Supreme War Council would have been within their rights to 'protect' the Emperor by putting into their custody and disregarding his order to surrender, as that would cause his life to be in danger.

Those who were in charge of the military in Japan, did not surrender before the first bomb, they did not surrender after it, and only after over 20 hours after the second bomb did they finally surrender. As it was, there was no unanimous vote of the Supreme War Council, and half of them wanted to continue the war. After hopeless days of deadlock in the Council one of the pro-surrender members entreated the Emperor to intercede, which he did, and ordered the surrender. This still almost didn't happen, as a group of junior officers staged a coup of the Emperor's palace to prevent the order to stand down from being issued. They were eventually talked down by their general.

It is possible, had the Allies offered terms of allowing the Emperor to stay in power, then the Emperor would have been inclined to intercede sooner and the Supreme War Council wouldn't have been able to take him into protective custody. It is not likely that the 3 hardliner members of the War Council that were preventing a surrender even after two atomic bombs would have capitulated even with terms being offered. They were willing to accept a Pyrrhic victory.

This term for surrender was proposed, but there was precious little intel about Japanese culture and the role of the Emperor in the government. From the perspective of those in charge, allowing the Emperor to stay in power seemed a lot like offering terms to Germany that would allow Hitler to stay in power. Again though, even had they offered terms to the Japanese government that allowed the Emperor to stay in power (which after the Japanese accepted defeat, this term was accepted by the Allies for the Emperor, but not for the PM) from the beginning there is no guarantee that it wouldn't have taken either the bombs, or a land invasion.

It is very plausible that had the bombs not been dropped, even if terms for surrender were offered that a land invasion would have been necessary, which would have prolonged the war, and produced a higher body count. As long as the Supreme War Council believed that a land invasion was necessary for them to be defeated, they still had some hope for victory as a land invasion favored their forces and they believed that they could inflict enough loss of life against the Allies to cause them to lose their taste for battle, leaving Japan crippled, but undefeated.

The atomic bombs signaled to half the War Council and to the Emperor that there wasn't going to be a land invasion. The fire bombings were not a precursor to a land invasion, but the first stages of a nationwide siege. What would have happened without the bombs is anybodies guess, but that doesn't make it guesswork.

It is certainly a distortion to put out a narrative in which the bombs were strictly a US scare tactic against Russia. It is completely revisionist to say that there was no tactical reason to use them, and that Japan had already surrendered, or was in the process of trying to surrender, as both of those points are very far from being true. Other means of ending the war could have been pursued, but that doesn't mean that they absolutely would have been successful. There was definitely a way to end the war that had a higher human cost attached, and that was avoided. It is a nice thought to think that there was a better way to end the war with even less human cost attached, but it may just be wishful thinking on our end. There will never be a way to know for sure.

[–] junlei84 16 years ago

god damn them