COUSINS!


Dude, did anyone else find that the fact that Edmund and Fanny were cousins SLIGHTY disturbing?

~Je veux vous blesser avec ce couteau~

reply

No, not at all. Cousins marrying has never been a problem under UK law.

You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope

reply

I read this on "The Independent" and thought about this thread:

"There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html

"The risk of giving birth to babies with genetic defects as a result of marriages between first cousins is no greater than that run by women over 40 who become pregnant, according to two scientists who call for the taboo on first-cousin families to be lifted".

reply

It doesn't disturb me at all. I don't think there is anyone wrong with it.

reply




How were they cousins? Mother to brother or how? First or second cousins?

reply

Fanny's mother was Edward's mum's sister.

No it isn't weird. This sort of thing happened all the time prior to the 20th century. Edgar Allen Poe married his cousin and it's likely that in your family line there are a long list of cousins marrying each other.

reply

Don't forget that Jane Austen's favorite brother, Henry, married his first cousin, Eliza, the daughter of his father's sister. Henry and Eliza were childless, so we'll never know what was lurking in their common gene pool. Jane Austen may have been a bit ambivalent about their marriage (because Eliza was rather similar to Mary Crawford). However, I've never seen any evidence that it was "creepy" to Austen because of the cousinship.


reply

Yes, I did find it 'slightly' disturbing and kept trying to remember how many genes cousins share!

reply

Well I mean, you know not to marry your sibling and cousin is only one step down from that! Besides, its illegal here to marry yor cousin now.

~Je veux vous blesser avec ce couteau~

reply

It's legal to marry your cousin in some states in the U.S. I knew somebody from high school who married her first cousin, but then divorced him. Thankfully, they didn't have any kids.

Icky, I know.

Royals have been marrying their cousins for centuries. I figure that's the reason Queen Elizabeth was happy that her kids married commoners.

reply

I just posted a question about this to my Regency group because I thought I read that it became illegal for 1st cousins to marry in England at some time.
Not as bad as the Egyptians who married their siblings! (gods had to marry each other to keep the bloodline pure- of course the girls and boys weren't raised together)

reply

Royals have been marrying their cousins for centuries. I figure that's the reason Queen Elizabeth was happy that her kids married commoners.


Interesting you mentioned that because Queen Elizabeth married a (distant) cousin herself. She and Prince Philip are both great-great grandchildren of Victoria.

I don't care about money. I just want to be wonderful. - Marilyn Monroe

reply

And, has been mentioned in this very thread, Queen Victoria married her own first cousin. Albert's father and Victoria's mother were siblings. Several of their grandchildren married each other -- meaning that first cousins married each other. Take a look at pictures of George V and Nicholas II. Their parents were not each other's first cousins, but the 2 kings were not only first cousins, they were so closely related on both sides of the family that they could pass for twins. (here is the picture: http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/84/Tsar_Nicholas_II_ &_King_George_V.JPG/200px-Tsar_Nicholas_II_&_King_George_V.JPG George V is on the right)

In P&P, Lady Catherine wants Anne to marry Darcy. They're first cousins too.

In Georgette Heyer's books, there are several first cousin marriages. I'm currently re-reading The Unknown Ajax, where the hero and heroine are also first cousins.

reply

Easy - siblings share (on average) half their DNA. Parents share exactly half their DNA with their children. So first cousins share 1 / (2x2x2), i.e. 1/8 of their DNA. Using a similar calculation, you find that second cousins share 1/32 and third cousins share 1/128.

It's estimated that each and every one of us carries between 1 and 3 potentially lethal mutations. So reproducing with close relatives means the chances of those mutations ending up in a double dose become statistically higher than by marrying someone who is not a close relative, who would have a completely different set of lethal mutations.

A study carried out here in Australia in the 1990s showed that the children of first cousins have a 6% increased chance (above the general population) of having birth defects. This increases if the children of first cousins then go onto marry their cousins. After 3 generations the chance is 25% higher than for the general population. So yes, the "creepiness" is there for a good reason!



Daniela

reply

This cousin thing is an American hang up. I have never elsewhere heard of any objection to marriage between cousins and it's certainly not mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer's Table of Affinity.







If we are to be brothers, let us be brothers for life, die together.

reply

Not sure if I'd label the concern "a hang up". So far no one has answered my question re the amount of genes cousins share! The cousins I know who have married (born and married some years ago outside the US) produced some pretty unhealthy offspring!

Just food for thought...

reply

I found the whole cousin scenario slightly disturbing in this version especially. I know that maybe in those days it was a common practice, but for some reason when I saw the 99' version it didn't seem as weird. Although I like both versions, I think the relationship between Fanny and Edmund was better developed in the earlier film. There was more of a romantic connection between them which took the focus away from the fact that they were cousins. In this latest version, the audience is left to interpret glances and vague statements that, in my opinion, were not enough to show true romantic affection.

reply

[deleted]

As others have noted, not only was it common, but it was expected and advantageous among the wealthy and titled. It was a way to keep the money and/or estate in the family. Plus you knew what you were getting.

And as far as referring to it as an American hang-up, there is something to be said for not tempting fate when it comes to recessive genes. For instance, with all the intermarrying among the royalty, expecially Queen Victoria's descendants, hemophilia afflicted a far larger percentage of the royals than the regular population.

Anyway, that's my $.02.

reply

I agree with you hermione-24. I find the fact that Edmund and Fanny are first cousins to be creepy. Very disturbing. If they had children, the children would most likely have mental problems.

reply

There have been studies done that show there is only about 2-3% increased risk of birth defects. Of course, it would be higher after repeated cousin marriage of several generations.

I know a family where the parents are first cousins and there is nothing wrong with their children. They live in the US.

reply

Most likely not. Intermarriage among cousins over several generations can and often does lead to birth defects; but a one time deal like Fanny and Edmund or even sporadic intermarriage very rarely does.

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.

reply

I still wouldn't risk it with genetic birth defects. And also, I am not at all close with my cousins, but to marry one of them would be like marrying my brother.

~Je veux vous blesser avec ce couteau~

reply

Just in case anyone was wondering, it's illegal to marry your 1st and 2nd cousins in the US, 3rd are ok,(but still creepy in my book) I don't know about the UK.

As for being grossed out by seeing it in a film, haven't you ever seen Gone With the Wind?

reply

I was going to mention that - "The Wilkses always marry their cousins." Ashley and Melanie Wilkes were first cousins who married, and look how that turned out.

Apparently this sort of thing was common enough in America at the time, and in the 1930's book Margaret Mitchell made it clear she didn't approve one bit. She portrayed the Wilkses were generally sickly and wimpy, and pointedly blamed it on the inbreeding. Inbred Melanie had life-threatening problems bearing children, while Scarlett with her diverse background could pop out babies with unfashionable ease.

reply

I live in California, and it is not illegal to marry your 1st or 2nd cousin.

It is also perfectly legal to marry your 1st or 2nd cousin in Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, Virginia, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, Alaska, and Hawaii.

reply

Wow, I didn't know it was still legal in some states. However, I did know it was fairly common in the UK during the time of Jane Austen.

reply

Wait, why has nobody in this thread yet mentioned that the idea, that marriage between cousins might be creepy to some, is actually addressed in the book version of Mansfield Park? This comes up in the very first few pages -- Sir Thomas definitely has concerns from the start about bringing Fanny to live with them, because of the risk of sparks between her and her male cousins. He clearly does not find the idea palatable, and Aunt Norris appears to agree -- although she is so insincere in all her doings that I don't know if she really objects to cousins marrying. What she really seems to object to is people from different classes marrying. Anyway, Aunt Norris actually persuades Sir Thomas to take Fanny, based on her notion that if Fanny, Tom and Edmund are raised together, they will feel like siblings and so they would be LESS likely to have romantic feelings. Ironically, once Fanny arrives, it is Aunt Norris herself who constantly reminds Fanny that she and her cousins are NOT siblings, that Fanny is in a different class.
Even later in the book, it is clear that SIr Thomas still frowns on marriage between cousins. When he comes to Fanny's room for the first time ever, Sir Thomas is trying to understand why Fanny has just refused Henry Crawford, and he considers the possibility that maybe it's because she already loves someone else. Which would have to be one of his sons, since those are the only eligible men Fanny has ever been around. At that moment Fanny is clearly aware of what he is thinking, and is clearly mortified that he might realize she loves Edmund, since she knows he would not approve. At the end of the book, it is explicitly stated that, after being scandalously let down by the Crawfords, Sir Thomas decided that marriage between cousins was not the worst thing in the world. Still, fond as he was of Fanny, it was clearly not his first choice for his children to marry their cousins.
I'm just saying that even though marriage between cousins may have been more acceptable in past times, even then, there were people who objected to it. Jane Austen clearly did not object to it altogether, since she not only has Fanny marrying Edmund, but in Persuasion has Henrietta marrying Charles Hayter. However, even JA apparently objected to cousin marriage as a way to preserve blood purity & family fortune, as evidenced by the negative portrayal of the match which Lady Catherine was planning between her daughter and her nephew Darcy in P&P. Still, in Mansfield Park I think JA was giving some credit to the view that a good (unlike Lady Catherine) person might find it distasteful, as she generally drew Sir Thomas's character to be a good man with a lot of integrity.
By the way, this was 1 of my main objections to the 1999 film -- I don't believe Austen envisioned Sir T as such an evil hypocrite. I know white masters raped slaves, but that was not JA's idea of Sir T. She drew him as someone who seemed severe, but was never really unkind to Fanny, always behaved with decorum, and truly wanted the best for his family. For example, although it would be awkward and embarrassing for his family, he offered Maria a chance to call off her marriage -- no matter how prestigious a match it was, he felt it would be wrong for his daughter to marry someone she did not love. Mostly his problems arose from his inability to relate to young people's minds, or realize what Aunt Norris was up to. But really that's because he had such integrity he was slow to realize others were not up to the same level.

reply

However, Sir Thomas' and Aunt Norris' objections are not based on an aversion to cousin-marriage. They object because of who Fanny's father is and because Fanny is not an heiress. Marriage to Fanny wouldn't be a "step-up" socially, or even a parallel step, for the Bertrams. Marrying Fanny would be a step down, and THAT is what Sir Thomas' objections are based upon.

And Jane Austen's brother Henry married his first cousin Eliza, who was very close to Jane, who very much approved of the match.

reply

Nope, that's not true, at least about Sir Thomas, although I did already observe that that was Aunt Norris's thinking. As I said, it is stated in the opening pages that Sir T's objection was to cousins in love. And as I said, Sir Thomas was consistently portrayed as someone motivated by doing right, not by money.
Here is the exact passage:
"He debated and hesitated; - it was serious charge; - a girl so brought up must be adequately provided for, or there would be cruelty instead of kindness in taking her from her family. He thought of his own four children - of his two sons - of cousins in love, &c; - but no sooner had he deliberately begun to state his objections, than Mrs. Norris interrupted him ..."
At no point does Sir Thomas express any idea that Fanny is inferior because of her father or because she is not an heiress, although Aunt Norris does so continually. He find nothing remarkable in Henry Crawford addressing himself to Fanny, only Aunt Norris does.
His own wife was not a very rich or prestigious person when he married her -- the opening sentence of the book is: "About thirty years ago, Miss Maria Ward of Huntingdon, with only seven thousand pounds, had the good luck to captivate Sir Thomas Bertram, of Mansfield Park, in the country of Northampton, and to be thereby raised to the rank of a baronet's lady..."
Which brings us back to the fact that his objection really was to the plain idea of, as the book says he considers it, "cousins in love, &c."

As for Jane herself approving of marriage between cousins, I clearly acknowledged that, and cited both this book and Persuasion as examples. I'm only saying JA was aware of their being others who were not so approving.

reply

Sorry, I still disagree. When Sir Thomas observes

"it was serious charge; - a girl so brought up must be adequately provided for, or there would be cruelty instead of kindness in taking her from her family. He thought of his own four children - of his two sons - of cousins in love, &c"
he's acknowelding that cousins do, in fact, fall in love and marry. The mention of "cousins in love" is an acknowledgment that taking in Fanny at Mansfield will include the risk that one of his sons might possibly fall in love with her and want to marry her.

(That's a concern because she isn't a "suitable match.")

There is nothing in that passage to imply that Sir Thomas is opposed to cousin marriage in general, or that he opposes cousin marriage out of disapproval of or repugnance to the practice.

At no point does Sir Thomas express any idea that Fanny is inferior because of her father or because she is not an heiress

There certainly is discussion recognizing and even emphasizing the difference between a Miss Price and a Miss Bertram:
“There will be some difficulty in our way, Mrs. Norris,” observed Sir Thomas, “as to the distinction proper to be made between the girls as they grow up: how to preserve in the minds of my daughters the consciousness of what they are, without making them think too lowly of their cousin; and how, without depressing her spirits too far, to make her remember that she is not a Miss Bertram. I should wish to see them very good friends, and would, on no account, authorise in my girls the smallest degree of arrogance towards their relation; but still they cannot be equals. Their rank, fortune, rights, and expectations will always be different. It is a point of great delicacy, and you must assist us in our endeavours to choose exactly the right line of conduct” (ch. 1).
And evidence of strong objections to Mr. Price:
But Miss Frances married, in the common phrase, to disoblige her family, and by fixing on a lieutenant of marines, without education, fortune, or connexions, did it very thoroughly. She could hardly have made a more untoward choice. Sir Thomas Bertram had interest, which, from principle as well as pride—from a general wish of doing right, and a desire of seeing all that were connected with him in situations of respectability, he would have been glad to exert for the advantage of Lady Bertram’s sister; but her husband’s profession was such as no interest could reach (ch. 1).
Sir Thomas wants to assist Mr. Price in his career, both because he has a desire of "doing right" and because if he can help Mr. Price to a better career, then the Price's won't be such low connections for the Bertrams to claim.

He find nothing remarkable in Henry Crawford addressing himself to Fanny, only Aunt Norris does.

But Crawford isn't Sir Thomas' son. :-) And, in fact, Sir Thomas has a vested interest in seeing Fanny make a creditable marriage. Also, this occurs years later, long after the discussions noted above.

Also, I think that since Fanny and Edmund do end up in love and married in the end, it backs up my interpretation. I can't imagine Sir Thomas would have been able to overcome strong objections to one of his sons marrying Fanny if such objections were originally based upon a general repugnance to cousin marriage. I don't see this being likely at all. I do, however, see him capable of overcoming his objections to her social status, and her unfortunate parentage (Mr. Price) due her own good qualities and characterisitcs, having proven herself worthy in ways that would make up for a lack of fortune and good connections.

His own wife was not a very rich or prestigious person when he married her

I know well Lady Bertram's circumstances. I love how the narrator points out her "good luck" in captivating Sir Thomas. But she still had a fortune (albeit small) to bring into the marraige, whereas Fanny has none (except what Sir Thomas might provide for her himself) and perhaps of greater significance, Lady Bertram was not the daughter of Lieutenant Mr Price. :-)

Which brings us back to the fact that his objection really was to the plain idea of, as the book says he considers it, "cousins in love, &c."

Again, I see nothing in that sentence nor in the chapter (or even the rest of the novel) that would suggest that Sir Thomas had an objection to cousin marriage. But I do see things that illustrate his objections to her father and her status.

Re: Mr. Price's career:
According to Brian Southam's Jane Austen and the Navy, during this era the marines were viewed as a "subordinate and inferior branch of the navy." Marines were considered to be idle and stupid. Obtaining a commission was not at all difficult, and "apart from the sons and relatives of marine officers, who could look forward to preferential treatment, it was a career for those who could find nothing better. [...] Promotion, by seniority, was slow and for most officers there was a ceiling at the rank of Captain" (pp. 207-209).

reply

In Persuasion, Henrietta Musgrove marries her first cousin, Charles Hayter.

And, if Lady Catherine de Bourgh had her way, her daughter, Anne, would have married her own first cousin, Fitzwilliam Darcy.

reply

I agree with you, randommovies2002. Sir Thomas doesn't like the idea of Fanny marrying his son because of her station and family connections, not because they are cousins.

reply

Thanks Julie and Booklover. :-)

reply

What are friends for?

reply

I agree with you Jarilynm, the fact that cousins was mentioned specifically by Sir Thomas is enough to convince me that he was concerned about it. He never mentioned her station in life, he mentioned her family relationship, her being cousins with his sons, as a detriment.

reply

[deleted]

He was concerned about making certain his sons didn't fall in love and want to marry a penniless girl with a father from a much lower social rank than his own.

reply