Compared with the novel - Northanger Abbey (2008) Discussion

[–] Julie-30 13 years ago

I'm not a huge fan of the book, but I agree that this adaptation doesn't do the book any favors. Andrew Davies is well known to inject sex into his scripts, and this one is no exception. It's a shame, because the cast are, for the most part, excellent, and the adaptation itself could have been better with a better script.

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[–] huwdj 13 years ago

I disagree. I don't particularly like the book and find the satire on the Gothic horror fashion of the time a bit heavy handed – but then I failed in my one attempt to read one of these novels so I may be wrong. However I think this adaptation which tries to portray Catherine’s over active imagination stoked to fever pitch with horror and, let’s be frank, naughtiness and sexual misdoings, probably gets the main theme of the story about right. Not sure Isabella actually needed to end up bedded by Captain Tilney though.

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[–] reeldramaqueen 13 years ago

But I'm pretty sure that's what happened though between Isabella and Tilney. Why else would he leave unless he had gotten what he wanted? And one of the few lines that remains from the book is when Catherine says she "wishes she had never known Isabella" and Eleanor says, "It will soon be as if you never shall." When I first read it, I didn't think of it either, but now I'm almost certain that's what passed between them.

I remember two things very clearly: I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Savior.

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[–] Julie-30 13 years ago

There is absolutely no textual evidence to conclude that Isabella sleeps with Captain Tilney. None whatsoever. What there is, however, is Andrew Davies and his preoccupation with having his actors 'get their kit off.' (his words, not mine)

Austen, in her understated, subtle way, always makes it perfectly clear if people have slept together. Always.

We are 100% certain that Lydia and Wickham do. We are 100% certain that Maria Rushworth (nee Bertram) and Henry Crawford do. We are 100% certain that Willoughby and young Eliza do. But there is zero evidence to make the assertion that Isabella and Capt. Tilney do. Isabella is not a stupid teenager like Lydia. She's also not a married woman who let her passions get the better of her like Maria. She is street-smart and she is calculating. She knows full well that she has only one thing of value to offer and that is her virginity. She would never give it up lightly.

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[–] randommovies2002 13 years ago

Odd that such a calculating streetwise girl would have thought that she had the slightest chance to snare the heir of Northanger Abbey. In trying for Fredrick she gives up the only other offer she has (James). And while James isn't rich, he will eventually receive a living and perhaps some other assistance from his father, which is more than Isabella is likely to get from any other quarter.

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[–] Julie-30 13 years ago

She had no money, and brother led her to believe that James had more money than he actually did.

Isabella was getting older and needed to get married. I'm sure other men wouldn't go near her because they knew she was poor, and some of them may have been smart enough to see right through her. But James doesn't because he is very, very naive. I would go as far as to say that he's even more naive than Catherine. After all, Catherine had John Thorpe pegged as a jerk from the get-go, but James couldn't see it. James was duped by both Thorpes, but Catherine was duped by only one of them.

But back to Isabella -- if you agree with the idea that she and Capt. Tilney slept together, I'd love to see the evidence. I need solid textual evidence, not just a feeling. As I said before, we are 100% certain about Lydia/Wickham and Maria/Henry. Austen does not give us any gray areas with these people, and I don't think she does in NA either. Besides, NA is a very early work that isn't as polished as P&P or MP. You'd think she'd be less subtle rather than more.

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[–] randommovies2002 13 years ago

But back to Isabella -- if you agree with the idea that she and Capt. Tilney slept together, I'd love to see the evidence. I need solid textual evidence, not just a feeling.

I'm not saying that I agree with the idea. But I find it odd that Isabella would make such a miscalculation by persuing Tilney-- a miscalculation that costs her the only real offer she's likely to get. I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't ruled it out 100%.

I used to believe it was 100% impossible that Isabella would have slept with Tilney, but now I'm not so sure. This change, however, is not based on Davies's script or the 07 film. I came to it during my last re-read of the novel.

Besides, NA is a very early work that isn't as polished as P&P or MP. You'd think she'd be less subtle rather than more.

True, but JA did edit it quite a bit, years after selling the ms to the first publisher (from whom Henry bought it back).

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[–] Julie-30 13 years ago

I'd gotten the impression from my reading that it's not as edited as her other early works. I could be wrong. Who knows.

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[–] randommovies2002 13 years ago

That's just it, nobody knows. But I like Weasel's suggestion below. Have you read it?

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[–] weaselfrance 13 years ago

Isabella's vain. She's the best looking of her sisters and seems to attract a share of male attention when she goes out, so she's pre-disposed to think she's capable of bagging a bloke. Since the Thorpes thought the Morlands were rich, they were displeased by the settlement proposed by Mr Morland and the fact that Isabella would have to wait to marry. They just thought he was being tight fisted, they didn't realise how generous he was actually being. With Isabella in this state of mind, Capt Tilney was so blatant, open and persistent in his attentions to Isabella that even the clueless Catherine noticed them. Isabella had no way of knowing he was only toying with her (Henry knew what he was up to, no one else did) so it's not surprising she'd think she'd bagged the heir of Northanger Abbey. Frederick Tilney made all the running and Isabella made the mistake of taking him seriously.

He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!

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[–] randommovies2002 13 years ago

Thanks for this, weaselfrance. This helps a lot. It's been bugging me since my last re-read.

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[–] Julie-30 13 years ago

Agreed. But this still doesn't mean she slept with him.

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[–] iamweaver 13 years ago

I just finished re-reading NA today - and while I'm not quite sure that sexual intercourse is 100% out of the question (as our information from that period is always 3rd-person), I too find it unlikely. My read has been that Isabelle just got tangled up inside her own webs of deceit, and John finally overcame his blindness from naivete and her looks - which fell outside her calculations. Personally, I think she's entirely too "prudent" to have premarital sex (Henry Tilney used that adjective when describing her - I found it funny and eminently suitable).

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[–] randommovies2002 13 years ago

I believe that is weasel's point.

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[–] weaselfrance 13 years ago

It certainly is

He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!

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[–] Sofistali 13 years ago

I agree. Isabella is a flirt not a "fallen woman." There's a lack of serious outrage on anyone's part in Isabella's behavior, which means she was merely untrustworthy and fickle. But not scandalously so, just contemptibly so.

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[–] romina_p 13 years ago

I got the impression that something DID happen between them though... maybe not sexual intercourse per se, but definitely some improper behavior went on which became public knowledge. I mean, why would Isabella all of a sudden leave Bath? If I recall correctly, she said something along the lines of 'everybody in Bath is so boring so I decided to go home'; aka: "I can't stay here cause I made a big mistake and by the way is your brother still available since I don't have any other options?"

The fact that Henry also said, as someone mentioned "you won't know her anymore" (paraphrasing, big time!), I came to understand that she won't be able to be friends with Isabella anymore because of her soiled reputation, whatever it happened to be that she did. Maybe she just hung out with him so much and that caused tongues to go off, but I tend to think it's a bit more. Not even Austen would have her be detested only for that... remember Marianne? Marianne even went off on her own with Willoughby and nobody thought she slept with him nor that she was disgraced. So why was it so bad that Isabella only flirted with Tilney? Doesn't make sense.

I firmly believe that SOMETHING went on between them, something more than just excessive ballroom dancing. LOL!

No Englishman'd dream of dying in someone else's home,esp. of someone they didn't know!

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[–] weaselfrance 13 years ago

The difference between Isabella and Marianne was that Isabella was engaged to someone while flirting with Frederick Tilney. An engagement was a legally binding relationship and could only be ended by a woman with a great deal of social awkwardness and potential harm to her reputation. A man couldn't end an engagement without exposing himself to a lawsuit for breach of promise. Isabella, having promised to marry James, shouldn't have been flirting with anyone. Marianne, who wasn't legally tied to anyone, could meet with Willoughby if she chose (and put up with all the attendant gossip).

Isabella and her family always intended to leave Bath for Putney since they were only there on holiday, and all holidays have to end sooner or later. The the family left Bath after Frederick had transferred his attentions to someone else and after he'd left town. She didn't flee immediately, and although she was on the receiving end of a at least one snarky comment, there's nothing in the text to indicate there'd been any scandal. What makes you think she did a runner in disgrace?

When she wrote that there was nothing or no one in Bath worth staying for, she was desperately trying to build bridges with Catherine and her brother, both of whom had left Bath by this point. See the point she was trying to make ? She was, indeed, trying to get James back via Catherine but only because she still believed he was rich and IMO her confidence had been shaken when she realised Frederick had just been toying with her and she wasn't as irresistible as she thought she was.

When Henry said it would be as if Isabella and Catherine had never known each other, he meant that since they would never see each other again, it would soon be as if they had never known each other. I think you've read too much into an innocent comment. Isabella's been exposed as a heartless gold digger. Why would Catherine want to keep in touch with her? It's Isabella's stupidity, cold heartedness, insincerity and gold digging we're meant to disapprove of, nothing else.

Austen could have made it perfectly clear that Isabella had been sexually indiscreet with Frederick, after all, she managed to explain it in several of her other novels without any trouble. Since she doesn't in NA, I think it's extremely safe to say that nothing sexual happened

He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!

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[–] Sofistali 13 years ago

I agree. When a woman does something like that in a Jane Austen novel, she's "fallen" or "ruined" or "disgraced", and it's made pretty clear.

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[–] weaselfrance 13 years ago

Capt. Tilney left Bath because he was ordered to by his regiment . He'd already chucked Isabella by this point because his intentions were never serious and he'd enjoyed causing havoc in her life and moved on to the next young lady.

“So much for Isabella,” she cried, “and for all our intimacy! She must think me an idiot, or she could not have written so; but perhaps this has served to make her character better known to me than mine is to her. I see what she has been about. She is a vain coquette, and her tricks have not answered. I do not believe she had ever any regard either for James or for me, and I wish I had never known her.”

“It will soon be as if you never had,” said Henry.

“There is but one thing that I cannot understand. I see that she has had designs on Captain Tilney, which have not succeeded; but I do not understand what Captain Tilney has been about all this time. Why should he pay her such attentions as to make her quarrel with my brother, and then fly off himself?”

“I have very little to say for Frederick’s motives, such as I believe them to have been. He has his vanities as well as Miss Thorpe, and the chief difference is, that, having a stronger head, they have not yet injured himself. If the effect of his behaviour does not justify him with you, we had better not seek after the cause.”

“Then you do not suppose he ever really cared about her?”

“I am persuaded that he never did.”

“And only made believe to do so for mischief’s sake?”

Henry bowed his assent.

“Well, then, I must say that I do not like him at all. Though it has turned out so well for us, I do not like him at all. As it happens, there is no great harm done, because I do not think Isabella has any heart to lose. But, suppose he had made her very much in love with him?”

“But we must first suppose Isabella to have had a heart to lose — consequently to have been a very different creature; and, in that case, she would have met with very different treatment.”

There's no way Isabella would have slept with anyone without a ring on her finger. The other Austen ladies who have sex outside of marriage are carried away by their feelings. Isabella has a calculator where a heart should be. No matter how flowery her speech, she wouldn't take that sort of a risk!

He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!

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[–] An_Hedonic 13 years ago

Compared with the novel the film is one of the worst adaptations of Jane Austen I've ever seen. There is a 1986 BBC version that's far better in every respect (some reviewers complain about the goofy soundtrack music but it fits in with the over-the-top gothic novels Austen was parodying). I like Felicity Jones but not in this but I doubt anyone could redeem this film. Mrs. Allen is almost a different character and so many other liberties taken if Jane were alive she probably would sue. I'm not one of those who criticizes every film adaptation of a "classic" author like Austen or Dickens but this is a real travesty. The 1986 version is available on DVD at amazon for a mere $10.49 and given today's movie ticket prices is a steal.

"I write Stargate fan fiction so I think I know what I'm talking about..."

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[–] Julie-30 11 years ago

The 1980s version makes me laugh; http://currentscene.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/2010-a-jane-austen-odysse y-31/

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[–] fkelleghan 11 years ago

Julie, thanks very much for the link - I really enjoyed that barbecue of an essay.

I would like to return to Jeremy's (the OP's) first sentence:

"I don't really think this adaptation did justice to the novel."

I've just finished watching the movie (for the second time; I saw it first when first released) and I agree for one major reason, which covers a lot: Davies and Jones made changes which weren't at all necessary.

However, even while sometimes seething at the changes, I understood that they felt for some reason bound to a 120-minute limit.

I was very happy with the casting, and when, eventually, someone decides to make a TV mini-series, I'll likely be happier. Sure, it's a short novel, but it's such a beloved novel that a long version will be welcomed if it's done well. (Kickstarter, anyone?)

I think I'm with many who say that JJ Feild is spectacularly good as Henry, and I'm probably going to start a new thread concerning the music during Catherine's first night at the Abbey.

In the meantime, though, I'm just going to say that I'm really happy to see so many fans of the movie and the novel, and so many good comments.

Fiona

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