MovieChat Forums > Lake of Fire (2007) Discussion > Abortion = Murder? GROSS -- Screenshots...

Abortion = Murder? GROSS -- Screenshots From Film


First of all, don't look if you are easily grossed out! For me, I always thought of abortion as simply an egg getting taken out or something. But after watching this film, you can see that there are little people getting killed each time. For the first time, I can actually see why people consider abortion to be murder... A few years ago, I thought my girlfriend might be pregnant, and suggested if she was, we should get an abortion. She broke up with me instantly, and luckily was not pregnant. But I now see why she was so insulted by the idea.

Here's a few screenshots from the film (Viewer Discretion Is Advised!):
http://i26.tinypic.com/2r6jf48.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/w9a5n4.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/2vanpqc.jpg

This thread is not intended to be some argument on what people think about this very controversial subject, but rather simply show you the screenshots that stood out to me.

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You definitely have a point. I definitely consider myself Pro-choice, no questions. But watching this movie was the first time I had ever seen what actually physically happens during an abortion. I think the reason it is so powerful is because 90& of the people who feel very passionately about this topic either way probably don't have any real idea what happens. It was very disturbing, but regardless I think anyone with those kinds of feelings about the issue should see this film.

"Yes, I'd like a cheeseburger, please, large fries and a cosmopolitan!"

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I have not seen the movie and as such was wondering how far along into the pregnancy the woman was that the pics were taken of the fetus? I ask simply because I know a few women who have had abortions(they're fully functioning healthy women still not depressed or psychologically traumatized btw) and when they asked to see the fetus or child they were shown a small bit of tissue, in one case it was so small it was the size of a pinky tip. So were the pics above from a later term abortion? I get the movie soon I'm very interested in watching it.

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Okay I actually watched the movie. Very moving, very scary seeing all these crazy fundamentalists running around killing doctors. anyways, if you've seen the film you'll note the talking about storing dead babies in the freezer. That is a terrible picture to imagine but you should keep in mind the fact that babies (like the pictures of the one above) are 1% of cases. 1 out of 100 mothers are that far into their pregnancy. a freezer with 25 babies in it is out of 2500 abortions. I'm honestly not saying it's justifiable to have 25 late term abortions I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

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So, if these 1 in a 100 late-term abortions are so bad, I'm curious, at what point in the fetus's development does it cross the line into "it is now bad to kill the fetus"? I mean, is it when it has five full-formed fingers? When it has a heartbeat? When does it become wrong to end the life of the fetus?

I can't help but take the position, "Since these are human fetuses we are talking about, let's be safe and not kill any."

I still can't believe abortion is legal. What is happening to the world when mothers are losing what should be the most natural and motherly of all instincts, to protect their own unborn children?

Expediency. It's all about Expediency. The right not to suffer...the right not to have to be inconvenienced in any way. Some women, I guess, care more about not suffering or even being inconvenienced than they do about their own children. Very sad.

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So, if these 1 in a 100 late-term abortions are so bad, I'm curious, at what point in the fetus's development does it cross the line into "it is now bad to kill the fetus"? I mean, is it when it has five full-formed fingers? When it has a heartbeat? When does it become wrong to end the life of the fetus?


At week 12 it goes from being an EMBRYO (aka a lump of cells or parasite) to being a fetus. In Norway, week 12 is the limit - but late-term abortions for specific reasons can be performed up until week 18. From week 12 and onwards the fetus develops very rapidly and begins to develop nerve endings, lungs, brain etc.

Expediency. It's all about Expediency. The right not to suffer...the right not to have to be inconvenienced in any way. Some women, I guess, care more about not suffering or even being inconvenienced than they do about their own children. Very sad.


That's hilarious. I had an abortion when I was 17 because my birth control failed. You mean to tell me that I, as a 17 year old bipolar high school student with no money no license no car no steady relationship and no job.... should have brought a child into this world? That's incredibly irresponsible. I'd be sitting here with a five year old now if that was the case, and considering that I was chronically suicidal from age 19 to 22.. hah. That child would've had a miserable life.
I didn't care about ME "suffering" or "missing out of life", it was all about the child. And it wasn't a child at that stage (week 5), it was a parasite, but you get the idea.

My mother asked me, because it was the right thing to do, what I wanted to do - and I flipped out and yelled at her. I couldn't believe that she would even think that I would be selfish and stupid enough to have the child.

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Fetal heartbeat is usually at 6 weeks.

Knowing what you're arguing about? Psssh. That's for commies.


I still believe that peace and plenty and happiness can be worked out some way. I am a fool.

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A 6-7 week embryo is under a half-inch long; the brain is a neural tube.

This very thorough (and rather long movie) does not shrink from the question of when life begins, nor the murky area of how/when it should end. Terry Schiavo had a heartbeat, as did Paul Hill's victims, Dr. John Britton and James Barrett.

Not a cheery subject, but certainly worthwhile.

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She was definitely very far along in the pregnancy. A little too long in my opinion. I don't believe in it either way, but that appeared to be almost fully formed. I can't imagine anyone seeing that and thinking it was ok.

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in the scene it is mentioned that she was in the 20th week of her pregnancy. that is e.g. above the 14 weeks that it is legal to have an abortion in germany.

i agree, it was a very disturbing scene. i am pro-choice and i find the 14 week mark quite sensible, but i still find it very relevant to see how an abortion is actually done. however, i would think that the back alley abortion a woman might turn to when not being allowed to terminate in a legal way are quite probably even more disturbing. especially since the life of the woman is often in far greater danger.






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How disrespectful.. you sure these are not the product of a spontaneous abortion>
What is the source.. I cant believe that any medical professional would release such material... even with permission of the parent.

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Watch the movie, you get a play by play of the abortion. The shoomp of the vacuum really makes it creepy.

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I'm sure that was five months in bec. he said to that one woman (when measuring the foot and you could see the face and hand) that she was at 20 weeks. Pretty far in. It's not an easy decision for any woman and 90% of women do not use it as birth control which is what prolifers do not comprehend. I had to take the morning after pill once and it was miserable.

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Im pro abortion as long as its before 3 months.
education is so important in this case

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you're wrong. no arguing.

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>Abortions can and do happen up until birth. As long as the baby is still inside the mother, the killing is legal.

Depends on where you live.

ABORTION TIME LIMITS
France: 12 weeks
Germany: 12 weeks
Italy: 13 weeks
Sweden: 18 weeks
US: limits after 26 weeks
Australia: No limit

(source: BBC News)

Anyway, it's definitely 12 weeks where I live. It's on demand up to this time limit but for a later abortion, there are conditions such as endangerment of the mother's health or severe handicap of the fetus. These dispositions solve most problems, but of course there are still women who wish to terminate their pregnancy after the third trimester for non-medical reason; these go abroad when they can afford it. I know personally one woman who did so because she had broken up with the father late in her pregnancy. I vaguely remember the case some time ago of a woman who wanted to abort a six month fetus because it was missing one hand, which was refused by local doctors. She went abroad and terminated the pregnancy

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That's a pretty narrow viewpoint.

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Forming opinions because of how something LOOKS (like many people seem to be doing in this case) isn't very reasonable. Just because this looks bad doesn't give any real, concrete information about abortion. It only causes a knee-jerk emotional response in the weak-of-stomach. This means absolutely nothing. Watching life-saving surgery looks just as disgusting.

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>> Forming opinions because of how something LOOKS (like many people seem to be doing in this case) isn't very reasonable. Just because this looks bad doesn't give any real, concrete information about abortion. It only causes a knee-jerk emotional response in the weak-of-stomach. This means absolutely nothing. Watching life-saving surgery looks just as disgusting. <<

Now that really is ridiculous. It's true that a photo can't give complete information on abortion, or that it can end all arguments one way or the other. But to say it means nothing? To attribute negative reactions to it only to the weakness of the viewer's stomach? To compare it to life-saving surgery? That has to be one of the most indefensible things I've ever heard anybody say on this subject one way or the other.

I mean, life-saving surgery may look disgusting, but presumably your intestines don't have a face on them. And the results of all that disgusting spectacle (with surgery) presumably are something good; they result in life, not (possibly) death. Sheesh. Try to formulate an argument that makes sense, will ya?

Incidentally, I'm coming from the pro-choice side of the fence, albeit very reluctantly. There are good arguments by good people on either side, which is one reason I think the law ought to stay out of it, because the question of whether it's legal is separate from whether it's a moral wrong. I am personally anti-abortion, because I really haven't seen any argument from the pro-choice side that establishes some sort of mark where personhood begins, other than birth. Lacking that, how is the whole process not one continuous thing from conception onward? But I also know I could be wrong. And making it legal doesn't remove the moral responsibility from each person to make the right decision about it, nor does it compel one single person to have an abortion. It only means it's not legally punishable if you do, and that fact doesn't absolve anyone morally.

So, knowing I could be completely wrong to do this, I take a deep breath and vote pro-choice, because it is not the government that forces anybody to have abortions merely because they are legal.

And by the way, if pro-life people (including churches, etc.) were doing a better job of convincing people of their position, no law would be needed. It's always amazing to me how many of the same religionists who align themselves with the right-wing "less-government-is-always-better" position absolutely scream for government involvement in doing the job they should be doing as parents, churches, etc., when it's an issue they care about.

Also, from an earlier post:

>> So, if these 1 in a 100 late-term abortions are so bad, I'm curious, at what point in the fetus's development does it cross the line into "it is now bad to kill the fetus"? <<

You're getting at exactly why I'm personally anti-abortion (see above). My very strong and abiding suspicion is that for most picketing laypeople, that point comes when the "mass of tissue" begins to look like a person to the picketing layperson. That's when it gets uncomfortable. But nothing has happened to the fetus other than the normal progress of growth, has it? What has changed is only the feeling that he/she now looks like us--which, to me, makes the willingness to terminate it/him/her before that point, and the unwillingness to terminate him/her after that point, an essentially self-centered mental leap. But I'd love to hear from anybody who has a better argument on this. I fully realize I could be wrong either way.

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OK, at 14 weeks.

An unborn child is 80-93 mm long and weighs up to 25g.

The child practices the breathing motion. Is flexing and twisting it's muscles and joints.

Is continuing to develop fingernails, eyelids and toe nails.

He/She also has a sprinking of hair on their head.

It is then, for a variety of reasons, including economic, social or the 'time is just not right'- TERMINATED.

This is the greatest horror of modern society and something that humanity should be truly ashamed of.

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Look at the picture please and think.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f14/KElizP/14week1.gif

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I guess what I'm saying is, I don't even need to look at the photo. In fact, looking at the photo sort of gets away from the point, to me, and plays to the self-focused logic of people who say aborting a fetus is OK before it begins to look recognizable as a human being and not OK after that. I know, I know; there are all kinds of arguments about how much cognition and self-awareness and pain sensitivity there is at certain stages of development. But there is no bright line past conception; after conception, it's all just normal human development, and even birth itself is more one passage toward physical independence than it is the "beginning of life" in any sense. If I ever hear an argument to the contrary that makes sense, I'll consider it. But for now, I haven't seen anything that convinces me that "collection of cells" isn't just an early-developing baby from the moment of conception onward.

But still: It is the job of parents and churches to convince people not to have abortions. It seems wrong to me to ask the government to make up for that failure, particularly when so many intelligent people differ. I think it is totally right for a pro-lifer to try to convince someone to see abortion as wrong, to present the reality of it, visual or otherwise. I don't think it's so good for that same pro-lifer to try to take away the freedom that every citizen has to decide whether it's right or wrong.

And really, it goes far beyond merely convincing people not to have abortions; it involves a whole new way of looking at sexuality, love, and parenting. It'll mean churchgoing parents should stop watching trash TV, laughing at sitcom gags about promiscuity and recreational sex with multiple partners. It may take a serious revision of the "dating" culture--the sleeping-with-serial-partners culture--or at least an effort to give kids an alternative to that. There's so much more that goes into it other than coming in after the fact and trying to illegalize an abortion of a pregnancy that resulted from misguided notions about sexuality that were presided over, or even promoted, by parents and the surrounding mass culture.

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I just finished watching the film and frankly, compared to some of the other shots in the film, the aborted fetuses didn't honestly shock me. I was more frazzled by the fact that many doctors have been killed, people have been injured and worse just because they work at an abortion clinic. I'm pro-choice, a point I only re-confirmed after watching this. The Pro-life people who spoke were the types of people I usually hear, bigoted, homophobic fundamentalists. Though not all pro-lifers are psychopathic, thankfully, the way these people behaved was appalling. What I love is that here these people support murdering abortionists, while they condemn the usual suspects, the gays, feminists, and anyone who isn't like them. Then we have people who actually listen and kill because of abortion and still have the gall to call themselves pro-life.

http://makinglovein2003.blogspot.com/
"Like a Whole Bucket of Stars Dumped into the Universe."

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>> Then we have people who actually listen and kill because of abortion and still have the gall to call themselves pro-life. <<

Yup, I agree. It's not a little bit ironic that these tactics are parallel to those of other violent terrorists--self-contradictory (we kill to support life, we kill to support God who supports life); we kill to convince people instead of convincing them by rational argument or spiritual persuasion, And the end result is to undermine the cause completely and to make people who otherwise might be sympathetic turn against them.

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If you're going to insist that every woman who becomes pregnant carries her baby to term, then you must agree to be responsible to provide adequate health care, nutrition, clothing and shelter for that woman and child. You must agree to protect her from those who might be angry enough about the pregnancy to harm her (rates of abuse rise astronomically during pregnancy). You must guarantee that her job or her place in school will be available to her, without negative recriminations, when she is ready to return.

It seems odd to me that most on the right (in the U.S.), who are opposed to abortion rights, are also opposed to social programs that might help women choose to carry their pregnancy to term. It also seems odd that those who call themselves pro-life often argue for the death penalty.

I know: babies are adorable; criminals not so much. But have enough babies who are unwanted or whose mothers are unable to care for them properly and I bet you'll end up with more criminals. Would it have been better if Charles Manson's mother had been able to get an abortion?

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Would it have been better if Charles Manson's mother had been able to get an abortion?


Probably not in the grand scheme of things when you consider that if Manson's mother had the right to abort him, then so would have Jonas Salk's mother (he cured polio). Ditto Albert Einstein's mother and so on and so on.

IMO, the social significance of people who do great things far outweighs the people who do bad. Even the lowest, most disturbing criminal is really only affecting a few people in a direct way. Meanwhile the great doctors or inventors or business minds accomplish things that positively impact everyone's lives in major ways for years and years.

If abortions didn't happen there would be more criminals obviously. Because there would be more people in general. But there would also be more great people making important contributions.

There are over 1 million abortions performed in the US alone every year. Sure, we may have unknowingly rid ourselves of the next Ted Bundy, but we may have also killed the person who was going to cure AIDS, or invent a method of energy use that would render fossil fuels obsolete, or become the next great President, or the next Mozart, etc...



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Without a safe and legal abortion, women are shackled to biology. I can think of no other circumstance where anyone advocates that we should allow the natural repercussions of human activity without medical intervention. Shall we deny chemo to smokers and drinkers, or splints to athletes, or gall bladder removals to those that overindulge in deep fried foods?

I'll be for making abortion illegal when I have the legal right to demand the usage of your body for my survival. Until that becomes one of our rights, then life is a gift a mother bestows upon her child.

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I have to agree with some that it is wrong BUT in MY OPINION if it is rape,incest,or the baby would have serious health problems that could cause death or the mothers death then women should have a right to terminate the pregnancy but it should be done early VERY early, but then again that only makes up 7 out of 100% I do truly believe that it is very selfish to just "get rid" of a helpless child,fetus,group of cells,whatever you chose to call it just because you were not fully responable to handle what happens when you have unprotected sex. There are plenty of people out here that would love to be parents but sadly can not concieve due to whatever reasons that are causing infertility. I do believe that it would be better to give the child up to a loving family that murder the child because of selfish reasons.



Once again this is MY O-P-I-N-I-O-N, I do not mean to upset anyone or start any pointless drama online. Everyone has a right to thier own beliefs and opinions.

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Without any regard? Which, btw, is a crime in accordance to all old religious schools of thought, very old. From very angry, frightened, empowered (or men who really had no power except that of being a patriarch of their family, a lifetime of serfdom...for most who have ever lived in civilization) MEN.

To be rational and critical about this issue is to study how it actually became an issue, why abortion was legalized in the first place, what it accomplished, what problems were caused, etc.

Clearly, abortion was made legal to prevent women from having horrific back-alley abortions, killing themselves, mutiliating the child (children that are the survivors of abortion attempts), etc. It also empowers women to not be slaves to the wills or whims of men, a HUGE social step that was only made not even 100 years ago in this country alone. Women still have a very long way to go, unfortunately. They have the biggest horse in this race. The FACT That the republican party has held all-male panels in the TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY is abusrd. Including their "even in the case of incest or rape" nonsense. This is a party that cannot be taken seriously on the issue, at all. By anyone who is in any way serious about being truly informed and forming an opinion that isn't pre-ordained by religious dogma or political brainwashing.

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Okay, let me rephrase so you understand me better... judging something by the way it looks is often deceiving. Historically, this fact has been used over and over as a tactic to manipulate people's emotions. For example, in relation to photos of fetuses, just seeing a face on something doesn't mean it has thoughts of feelings, even though these are qualities normally attributed to faces.

In terms of arguments making sense, just saying "that's ridiculous" is not a counter-argument. The only counter-argument you had was that fetuses have faces, and that death is always bad while life is always good. The face issue I just addressed. That death is always bad while life is always good is clearly not a fact, as evidenced by all the philosophical writing on the topic.

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If you're replying to me, could you please identify the specific post (date, mainly) to which you're referring?

Without looking at that post, I guess I can respond partially as follows:

1. Yes, appearances can be deceiving. A face in a cloud may be taken as "inspiring" when in fact it's just random accident; a face in the paneling may create an obsession with a ghostly presence. But a face on a living collection of cells that is developing a brain, a nervous system, a skeletomuscular system, etc., and will do so without some kind of trauma (violent interference, malfunction, illness, whatever) is not really comparable to such phenomena. If your point is that the fact that a fetus has a developing face is not conclusive evidence, automatically destroying all counterarguments, that the fetus is a protectible human identity of its own, I could agree with that. But I do think it's at least somewhat suggestive, don't you?

2. If your post was indeed directed to me, you may be referring to what I said (at some point in this thread) that it seemed to me that some of the pro-choice rationale for being in favor of abortion in the early months but against it in the later months was based on the fact that the fetus looks more human as time goes on, and it's less comfortable to talk about "terminating" a mass of cells that has started to look like a baby--which would make the position less principled and more self-involved or self-focused ("I don't want to kill it because it's started to look like us, now"). Certainly nowhere near every pro-choicer thinks that way, but I think it ought to bother people when anybody on either side of the question comes to a position for the wrong reasons. You see pro-choicers making an argument for how the fetus is part of her own body as long as it's in there, but very few of them would argue that therefore it's OK to abort right up until the time of birth. And then you get into some shaky ground too, don't you?--because how do you account for early births? What difference should one day earlier or later mean? How do we determine--with life-and-death importance--the moment of "viability," if that's the standard we're going to use?

This is why I really do think that virtually all the arguments I've heard in favor of the _certain_ rightness of abortion end up in hairsplitting and tremendous difficulty. But then, so do some of the pro-life arguments.

Again, though: I vote pro-choice, for a variety of reasons. I just wish there were never such a thing as an abortion, and I'd like to see that happen. But with this many intelligent people of good will on both sides of the question, it's hard to see how this could rightly be a matter of law. That's really what it comes down to for me. If abortion is in fact morally wrong, you can avoid having one even when it's legal, so your moral choice is unaffected and uncompelled. But if abortion is not immoral or wrong, and you can't have one without violating the law, then somebody's compelling and dictating your choice.

At any rate, I wasn't saying that _I_ was using the "face" thing as a standard; I was saying that it seems to me that others do that. And I'm saying that people articulate principles that just don't hold up when pushed to their logical limits, and thus are abandoned by the very people who articulated them. (I think you could find arguments on the pro-life side that fit this pattern, too, btw.)

As for whether death is preferable v. life, I'm not trying to open out that argument--although I would say that a relatively small percentage of abortions are performed on fetuses where there is a strong reason to believe that death is preferable to life. Am I missing something, though? Was the question bigger than that for a reason I've missed?

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THX!

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