MovieChat Forums > Senki Discussion > Aegean Macedonia? Occupied by Greece?!?

Aegean Macedonia? Occupied by Greece?!?

posted 16 years ago by yotsi
60 replies | jump to latest

As if the overall naming issue with Greece is not enough, this movie hints at a supposed genocide performed by the Greek authorities in the Greek part of Macedonia(called Aegean in the movie). This is propaganda of the worst kind, since it attempts to build momentum towards a new claim this time(apart from the name and history of the Greek part of Macedonia), a claim that suggests that there are occupied/oppressed 'Macedonian' populations in Northern Greece that need to be liberated, and territories to be reclaimed. PEOPLE PLEASE STOP HERE. Stop stealing history from Greece and Bulgaria, and stop this even more dangerous game of artificially manufacturing consent for a wholly fictitious genocide. If anything else you are poisoning the minds of your youths, that will grow up thinking they support their country's rights and history. Enough is enough. Shame on the director and whoever it was who wrote the script.

[–] Ilianthos 16 years ago

Couldn't agree more with you! Well said.

[–] iriskronauer 16 years ago

did you see the film ?

[–] theosducati 16 years ago

next week will come to greece and i will go to see the film.i hope to not be another propaganda thing from fyrom goverment because i like the director manchevski.

[–] iriskronauer 16 years ago

it is a splendid film, touching some of the big themes, the director dealt with in his previuos films - like personal responsibility !!!! and it is an extremely well made film.

i guess, all he is saying is 'think twice' !

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Just check the movie review at http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/movie_review/shadows-senki.htm and especially the last 2 paragraphs of the article. Manufacturing of consent and falsification of history is getting out of control, when an international magazine publishes crap like that without checking its validity beforehands.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

What i have seen are sections of the film which refer to contents described in my original post. These sections of the film are very clear in what they communicate, and there is no room for misunderstanding(like words taken out of context). While technically and artistically it may or may not be a great and touching movie, this does not mean that it is honest in its portrayal of historical correctness. The fact that this movie was proposed as the country's Oscar candidate, makes the matter all worst. Caveat emptor.

[–] iriskronauer 16 years ago

Why don't you go see the whole movie first and then judge? It is worth it.

And vote only after !!!! you have seen the movie !

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

iriskronauer as i've explained in my previous message it is not the artistic merits of the movie that i am concerned with, it may be a wonderful movie with wonderful performances and direction at the end of the day. What i find disturbing is the point that it communicates(historically wise). It is a point that promotes irredentist activity in the Balkans area, plus it is a blatant lie, as simple as that. So please don't play the 'vote after you've seen the movie' card on me, as i have been very clear and concise in what i've mentioned.

[–] iriskronauer 16 years ago

I think you judge too early. that is all i am saying. you didn't see the film and already write lots of things about it - this can't be regarded as serious in my view.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Granted, but what exactly is 'lots of things'? I am asking so, as i am being very specific in what i write. Please if you feel like, take the time to read again my previous post if you feel that what i say lacks seriousness.

[–] dragi 16 years ago

Have you ever considered that maybe what you've been thought could be a distorted form of the history of the Balkans. I'm really interested in Greek history and how this region is represented especially in the years of the balkan wars. Who were the ethnic people that lived there and how could that be that a country calling itself Macedonia could suddenly appear in this reagion out of nowhere?

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

dragi thanks for your input. The answer is that yes i have very seriously considered whether what i've been taught to think of from since i was a little child may in fact be distorted. Furthermore, the fact that i am living in the greek perfecture of Macedonia(the one that the neighboring country is starting to dispute), made it all the more important to me to discover where the historical truth lays closer(if not fully). So instead of relying on what the news media and the political parties reported, i've actually made my own research, only to find out that the Balkans history has been a very complex and troubling one, full of wars, monstrosities and human drama.

I can provide further details if you'd like me to, but for the time being to answer your question regarding who these ethnic people were/are, is that they are a mix of Bulgarian and Slavic people, that primarily originated as Bulgarians(Greeks and Bulgarians had a fierce and bloody struggle over the sum of Macedonian lands from as early as Medieval times up to the 2nd world war). A group of Bulgarians living in Macedonia used to identify themselves as Macedonians in an official manner from the late 19th century, seeing that the Ottoman grip on Southern Europe was getting weaker and weaker. Later on during the early 20th century the part of the geographical region of Macedonia which was populated with Bulgarian populations became part of Yugoslavia, following the defeat of Bulgaria to Serbia, Montenegro and Greece at the 2nd balkan war(the 1st balkan war had all 4 against the Ottoman empire). Later on Serbia & Montenegro along with the rest of the Slavic states(Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, etc) united to form Yugoslavia. The southernmost part of Yugoslavia(the country that is claiming the name Macedonia today) became part of Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslavian authorities did not want to recognize the Bulgarian populations living there as 'Bulgarian' because that would create future land claims from neighboring Bulgaria. So instead they named the area Vardarska Macedonia(Vardar Macedonia/North Macedonia as opposed to southern which is the greek one), and let the people living there identify themselves as Macedonians rather than Bulgarians. Regarding the greek authorities of the time, they weren't too pleased with that, but they didn't think of this development as a significant future threat(if only they knew).

Also on a final note, and regarding the expelled 'Macedonian' populations that the movie talks about, this occurred from 1944 to 1948, with the populations being either Communist Greeks, Slavs, Bulgarians and anyone else aligned to the Soviet Union(Yugoslavia and Bulgaria were part of the cold war's Soviet Iron Curtain) as Greece entered a period of civil war. A lot of bloodshed were committed at that time from both sides, as it was a question of who would prevail and shape the country's alliance(US or USSR). The prevailing side was the Western, something that lead to a complete cleansweep of Communists and Communist sympathizers. I'm not proud of my country's history during that specific timeframe, as a lot of injustice was committed to many people(as i'm sure would happen the other way round). What i know for certain though, that this series of events that took place at the time, are being presented in a distorted way by today's FYROM officials, in order to fuel the propaganda machine. This of course leads to young people growing in FYROM(or whatever is going to be called in the future) to learn that Greece has a part of their country and history grabbed, which creates tension among the two neighboring countries. The ruling FYROM political party(VMRO) does not make things any easier either, as it a right to extreme right wing party that encourages claims of all kinds(ancient macedonia, greek cities in today's macedonia, historical and religious figures, among other things). Relations with Bulgaria are not good either, as FYROM apart from claiming bulgarian lands and important historical figures, they claim that the Bulgarian Independence Day is in fact the 'Macedonian' independence day.

I'm genuinely worried what the future effects of this stance will be, with regards to stability in the Balkans area.

[–] nikola_sr 16 years ago

Yotsi
I don't know where you got your stupid information. How did you come to the conclusion that Macedonians wanted to identify themselves as bulgarians but Tito didnt let them? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. There are still Macedonians in Northern Greece(Aegean Macedonia) who identify themselves as Macedonians. Have you evere heard of political party "Rainbow" from Florina(Lerin)? Have you ever heard of OMO Ilinden from Pirin Macedonia(Bulgaria)?
These organizations represent the Macedonian minority in these countries. That means that there are a lot of people in Greece and Bulgaria who identify themselves as Macedonians. And you are telling me that people in Macedonia wanted to identify themselves as Bulgarians? Are you sick? I was born as Macedonian, my parents identify themselves as Macedonians and my grandparents identify themselves as Macedonians. I have two words for you: Treaty of Bucharest 1913. Just do some research on what was this illegal agreement about. Macedonia was divided in 1913. That's a fact and you cannot deny it. Greece doubled its territory and population in 1913.
Bulgaria was claiming that in Albania leaves bulgarian minority, but the Albanian Government just reported that in Albania leaves only Macedonian minority and no bulgarians. I don't even have to explain anything to you, but i am sick and tired of the attacks on the Macedonians. We are Macedonians whether you like us or not. The whole world recognizes us for who we are. You are the only ones who dont. So, thats your problem not ours. Countries that know what happened in 1913, recognize us and they know why you are against us. You are afraid that Macedonia may have territorial claims against northern greece because thats Aegean Macedonia.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

First of all learn to read before resorting to name calling, i didn't say that Slav Macedonians wanted to identify themselves as Bulgarians, but that Bulgarians wanted to identify Slav Macedonians as Bulgarians(which they were). Such a turn of events would be contrary to Yugoslavia's interests, so it instead encouraged the Slav Macedonians to be identified as 'Macedonians', cutting as much ties as possible from Bulgaria.

Regarding the fact that today's Slav Macedonians originate from Bulgarian populations, it's not just me revealing the obvious, it's Krste Misirkov from as early as 1903. The text below is taken from Wikipedia:
"Krste Misirkov, a philologist and publicist, mostly known for his work "On the Macedonian Matters" (1903), heralded by Macedonians as one of the “founders of the Macedonian nation”, stated:
“Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians and when it is generally accepted that unification creates strength, and not separation.”

“And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?”

Regarding the Rainbow party that you mention, yes of course i am aware of it. It's existence is indisputable proof that there are no Slav Macedonians oppressed in Greece, nor there are hundreds of thousands of oppressed 'Macedonian' populations. At each election the Rainbow party consistently receives about 2000 votes country wide. Furthermore although the Rainbow party maintains extremely anti Greek interest political positions, it is allowed to operate in full(as it must be in a democratic country). In short, the only 'Macedonians' that you refer to they way that you mean a 'Macedonian' to be, is these 2000 people where more than 50% percent of them posses a dual citizenship and live in FYROM, traveling to Greece only for voting during the election day.

I do not doubt that you are born a 'Macedonian', as well as your parents and grandfathers. This is what the real tragedy is, as you and your folks before you, have been taught a distorted version of history. I am not in the position to tell you who you are, i respect your family and traditions, but please respect my people's history and traditions as well.

Regarding the Treaty of Bucharest, it states that the geographical region identified as Macedonia, is split between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria following the events of the Balkan Wars. Notice that it refers to a geographical area, and of course there is no mentioning of a distinct 'Macedonian' nation as there didn't exist one. The closest things to 'Macedonians' as you mean them, were the Bulgarian populations living within the geographical area of Macedonia(again look at what Krste Misirkov had to say about this above).

And yes Greece double it's territories because the places that were occupied by the Ottoman Empire were of significant historical importance to Greece, with a lot of Greek populations living there at the same time. This is something you can't dispute as populations are well recorded by the Ottoman Authorities.

With regards to Bulgaria claiming that Albania should leave the bulgarian minority, that what the source of the problem that FYROM has with Albanians is today. 1/3 of natives in your country are Albanians, and with Kosovo becoming independent they are more dangerous than ever(more than 2001).

Lastly i cannot tell you what you are going to call yourself, as it is your own private issue. It's quite a different thing though how you are going to be calling yourself and how you are going to introduce yourself to others. In short, any attempt to impersonate and grab historical heritage, historical and religious personalities, and even land(in the far future) will be condemned. I am a Macedonian of Greece and proud of my heritage. As long as you don't try to steal my land's and people's history and heritage, and you recognize that your 'Macedonian' name is originating from the geography of the area only, i will have no problem with that.

[–] fovesna 16 years ago

I'm sorry yotsi, this movie is not some kind of propaganda, but the history you are presenting here is. It is not your fault but if you realy want to see the truth you should be openminded. Sometimes the truth can be shocking. Just read the Treaty of Bucharest 1913.
Bulgaria and Greece are afraid that Macedonia wants to claim its teritory back and that's why they act the way they do. That's politics yotsi.
Don't be afraid, Macedonia doesn't want it's parts back, but we are here and we are Macedonians no matter if you like it or not. It's not like we decided to be Macedonians overnight, it's been like that for centuries.
Respect yotsi, but you have absolutly no right to tell us who we are.

Don't be worried and watch this movie.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

I consider myself open minded fovesna, and if i am not please help me be and i will help you back. The Treaty of Bucharest states that the geographic area of Macedonia is going to be split between the victors of the Balkan coalition against the Ottoman empire. I don't see what is shocking about that, as it refers to a geographical area that is to be distributed between the countries. It makes no mention of a 'Macedonian' peoples as you mean them.

Bulgaria used to claim 'Macedonians' as Bulgarians a long time ago, when the Macedonian Bulgarians used to refer to themselves simply as Macedonians. Nowdays Bulgaria doesn't even have to try, as people from your country are rushing in to Bulgaria to apply for a Bulgarian citizenship(since Bulgaria has entered the EU). Tell me if this is not true.

Greece on the other hand, yes has good reasons to be afraid that after 20-50-100 years there could be an issue with irredentist activities from your country, that will refer to today's developments as 'facts'/historical precedents in order to make their claims.

It's not like you became 'Macedonians' overnight as you say, of course, it's just like you became 'Macedonians' during the course of the last 150 years and not centuries, slowly and methodically, through Bulgaria at first, Yugoslavia next, and on your own now.

The bottom line is, leave the history of Greek Macedonia alone, it's not yours to take. Next time you go to vote, think whether VMRO is doing good for your country by brainwashing everyone. Kiro Gligorov at least was honest enough to admit that 'We are Slav Macedonians and have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia and Greek Macedonia'.

So, where's the propaganda in all that?

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

Well, yotsi, I am glad you are open for discussion. Hope you are also open to change some of your views.
First, atm, there isnt any idea for getting Aegean part of Macedonia back now, or in near future. We are realistic about the borders, like none of our neighbours.

The leap we are asking here is, that you must realize, that your Macedonia, or, our, aegian macedonia, become part of greece 1913, and thats the simple truth. You got it by force, and it wasnt some kind of heritage :)

Macedonian nation is formed late 19 century, true. Do u know when is Greece nation formed? Early 19 century. Shell I search my lib for quotes from Greek revolutionaries, which I have studied following Lord Byrons jurneys? Those same revolutionaries complain of the LACK of hellenic selfawarness. And I can assure you, this wasnt in our history books, it was some english stuff, and they should know, couse they were the ones that bought your freedom, with money for the guns :)
So, I cant rly see that big of a diff in 50 years...

And now, by far, the biggest issue ... the PPL... do you know whats the real problem with Aegean macedonians is? Its not their existance ... I mean, you, and whole Greece can try to make them invisible, but over here, every few houses have at least one ancestor from there ... You cant imagine ppl birthplace rly... Or how were they expelled with bombs and napalm, cause I have seen the archive footages, from USA/UK planes ... who did it, btw ...
The real problem is their land... we are talking about few hundreds THOUSEND of ppl expeled, that have LEGAL papers on their land, who was given to greeks brought in from other regions. And since private property is the foundation of modern capitalisam and its law, here is the real issue why greek state is fighting against, and what is trying to prevent ... the nationalism from both sides is just for show ...

So, pls, explain this, LEGAL issue with the land, and the number of ppl involved :)

The territorial pretensions? pls ... before the expulssions, 1949, more then 50% of that aegean macedonia was slavic(macedonian), and there were lots of jews in the same region, also gone. Nowdays, its probably less then 10%-20%. Ocupation on bigger, stronger country, and changing population structure by that much? In 21 century? Do u think anyone here works on that? :)))

So, once again, whats the lie in the movie? In which, rly small part is, that some of the ppl are Aegean Macedonians, which are rly rly common in todays Macedonia? Or that they suffered when they were expeled from the land on which they were born? Ppl tend to grow attached to their home ;)

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Your reassurances do make me feel better, however i am not convinced that say in a century from now, your people are going to be as realistic as you are now.

Regarding the greek part of Macedonia, Greece didn't go on it's own to take some random foreign area by force (like e.g. the British did all over the planet). Macedonia was and still is a place of immense historical significance to Greece, that at the time hosted a large amount of Greek populations(along with Slavs and Bulgarians, apart from Ottomans). In the decline of the Ottomans and just before the 1st world war, it was a time of war and everyone was in the area was claiming lands(Serbs, Bulgarians, Montenegrins etc). The worst struggles were against the Bulgarians that identified themselves as the 'Macedonian' comitat.

About Greece becoming a state it's true that it became so in early 19th century. Does this mean that the word 'Greek' or 'Hellenic' didn't exist before? Why did they bother having a rebellion at the end of the day then? And what about the lack of hellenic-awareness? After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation the common people of Greece were reduced from the majestic Byzantines to beggars, thieves, crooks and illiterate people. But they never forgot their national awareness, i can assure you of that. I have studied Byron's life as well, he came to Greece full of hope and romantic ideas, expecting to find Greek gods, and what he found was a bunch of thieves, illiterates, and filthy beggars. This is true. As true it is that the educated Greeks of Constantinople, Smyrna, Vienna, Trieste, Moscow, Bucharest and the rest of Europe's great cities, never gave up the struggle for the revolution towards a free Greece until it became reality through immense hardships and drama. So since you have disputed the history of Greece, are you in a position to tell me what your country's history is? Is it different than Bulgaria's history or is it identical?

Regarding the land property issues, i never doubted that there was a large number of Slavs living in Macedonia(aka Slav Macedonians), and these were cleanswept from Greece at the end of the civil war, between communists and the right wingers. I have to doubt strongly though that more than 50% were Slav Macedonian, and than now there's a 10%-20% percent(more likely 5%).

The lie in the movie, is that an ethnicity named 'Macedonians'(Slav Macedonians), indigenous to the place's history and lands, were expelled and hunted from their lands because of ethnic cleansing/genocide. My point during all these posts is that while there were people that suffered during this time period, they weren't limited down to Slav Macedonians, but also communist Greeks as well as ethnic minorities that originated from communist foreign countries. And much more importantly this wasn't an ethnic genocide but a political witch hunt that came as an effect of the victors of the Greek civil war. Trying to present the above as a genocide of a 'Macedonian' people that were uprooted from their ancient lands and history, is just plainly a giant distortion, one that artificially manufactures consent for a supposed genocide, and paves the way for even more history and land grabbing, to somebody who watches the movie and is totally clueless with Balkan history. I respect the fact the people have grown attached to their homes, i don't respect the fact that apart from their own homes they trying to snatch my home as well though.

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

Well, I have never said that in the background of the fight, there wasn`t allies vs communists fight. But that doesn`t cover the real genocide, nor justifies it. Does anyone in Greece has idea of the scale of macedonians expeled from their land? in the movie, actualy this story ain`t elaborated, its just mentioned that there were ppl,and they suffered. The scale ... i cant enter a room, without finding one person, who hasn`t got at least one parent/grandparent born in aegian macedonia. And, keep in mind, most of the expeled ppl went abroad, from usa, canada Australia, to ex Yugoslavia and all the communist block countries. And again, no one here thoughts that the fight is about the history or the name. The real fight is, most of this ppl has DEEDS on their land, and that still holds valid in courts, you know ;) Somehow, your politicians connect this threat with our countries name :)

The numbers about ppl living there, i tend to find in diff census books, from independent sources. I love digging out stuff :)
And how many are there now? How would you know? After all these years of pressure, and torture, do You really think ppl are gonna talk openly about it? I do know ppl there that do speak macedonian, but dont declare macedonians, from fear of repercussions. Have you ever read some of the recent international human rights evaluations on Greece and minority rights? Do you think they are OUR propaganda? Seems our 2m ppl and poor country, holds some mighty grip on international bodies ;)

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Kefi, i'm glad you've opted to continue this conversation, and i do appreciate what i perceive to be an honest mentioning of what you believe in. I'm providing my place on your points below:

"Well, I have never said that in the background of the fight, there wasn`t allies vs communists fight."
Granted, but you have never said that there was either, which is more important than not saying so.

"But that doesn`t cover the real genocide, nor justifies it."
The key word here is 'genocide'. A genocide implies a systematic annihilation targeted against a specific(or groups of) ethnic populations. As i've mentioned in my previous message directed to you, what happened was a political witch hunt of people(after Greece's end of civil war), and these people became political refugees like communist -ethnic- greeks, and greek citizens of slav and bulgarian(both communist countries) ethnicity. This is not called a 'genocide' by any standards. In this collective group of people, i do acknowledge that there were Slav Macedonians/Bulgarians, that suffered at the hands of the new 'west oriented' political system, but didn't suffer no less than other groups of people, and they were persecuted not because of their ethnicity, but because of their political preferences/background.

"in the movie this story ain`t elaborated, its just mentioned that there were ppl,and they suffered."
I am aware of this, however this only makes it easier to pass to the viewing spectator. What i mean is, that instead of trying to prove or illustrate something too hard(e.g. make a movie specifically about this story), it is much easier to silently pass it a 'fact'(e.g. by placing it as a historical footnote inside the context of a movie).

"The scale ... i cant enter a room, without finding one person, who hasn`t got at least one parent/grandparent born in aegian macedonia. "
I have to note that if the scale's so large and everybody was living at the 'Aegean Macedonia' as you call it, who was living in the land that your country has today?

"expeled ppl went abroad, from usa, canada Australia, to ex Yugoslavia and all the communist block countries."
The same happened to Greek political refugees, that migrated mostly to USSR, as well as Yugoslavia and the rest of the COMINFORM countries.

"And again, no one here thoughts that the fight is about the history or the name. "
I beg to differ, as people from your country has repeatedly demonstrated the exact opposite, and i'm not talking about some extreme or unbalanced person. A recent example has to do with your prime minister(Gruevski), that he has been photographed a couple of months ago, paying honours to a Golche Delchev monument, while at the same time there is a map of 'Macedonia' that extends far into Greece and in Bulgaria, attached on top of the monument.

The swastika on the Greek Flag was also a huge mistake your country's authorities made. Although the poster itself was a private initiative(artist gallery in a museum), the authorities permitted this poster to be placed in various places of Skopje.

Also, about the Nazi uniform that the Greek prime minister was presented wearing in the Forum magazine, are you aware that the chief editor of the magazine is a former FYROM's minister of foreign affairs? Personally i wouldn't mind if it was a Greek artist making fun of the prime minister as i don't really like him that much, but when it comes from a foreign magazine i take it as an insult against my country, as the person represents my country.

Furthermore, how can friendly relationships exist between the 2 countries when your school textbooks contain maps of 'Greater Macedonia' grabbing up pieces of Greece and Bulgaria? Is this how the new generations are being taught?

Finally, how serious can it be when newspapers post pictures of people dressed up as 'Alexander the Great', and ancient-like sculptures are placed outside your parliament building?

VMRO and Gruevski are destroying you, it's not Greece that is your enemy, it's the people that you vote for leading your country's future.

"The real fight is, most of this ppl has DEEDS on their land, and that still holds valid in courts, you know ;)"
If it holds in courts, what's holding these people to take it to the courts for the last 60 years?

"Somehow, your politicians connect this threat with our countries name :) "
I should note that it is not only the politicians(all parliamentary political parties agree -either left or right- on the name issue), but also 90% of the Greek people (according to a number of nationwide opinion polls). The threat does not has so much to do with the name itself 100%. After all, there are several cities and state provinces named 'Macedonia' in the US, however this isn't a problem since it is evident that the people living there are American and have nothing to do with either the history or the future, apart from being fond of the name.

However in our case, if your country is named 'Macedonia' and at the same time borders with an area named Macedonia in Greece, isn't it reasonable that this creates tension? However what makes it even worse, is the claim of the history of the Greek area of Macedonia, as well as the claim of a wholly fictitious genocide.

"The numbers about ppl living there, i tend to find in diff census books"
I'd be interested if you could share this knowledge with me, as i tend to digg up stuff too. Which census books should i look into?

"And how many are there now? How would you know?"
A good indication would be the 'Rainbow party'. At the last national elections it participated, it received 2500-3000 votes, out of a voting population of 7.5 million, and with only 35% of it's votes received from the Greek prefecture of Macedonia.

"After all these years of pressure, and torture.You really think ppl are gonna talk openly about it?"
If there is so much pressure how can things like the below exist?
- Rainbow party, free to speak it's mind and also take part in national elections.

- Greek citizens identifying themselves as of 'Macedonian'(Slav Macedonian) ethnic origin, and speaking publicly on documentaries produced by greek TV channels.

- Greek citizens identifying themselves as of 'Macedonian'(Slav Macedonian) and maintaining their names and surnames(ending in -ev, -ov etc).

On the contrary, does FYROM offers the same freedoms to the citizen that declare they feel Bulgarian?

" I do know ppl there that do speak macedonian, but dont declare macedonians, from fear of repercussions"
I do accept that there are people who speak a dialect of Bulgarian, and identify themselves as 'Macedonians'. They can call themselves whatever they feel like and nobody can forbid this to them. Can you mention of an example of repercussions that has occurred against a person for declaring he is a 'Macedonian'/Slav Macedonian? Furthermore if things are as such, how is 'Rainbow Party' allowed to operate?

Also, not everybody of Slav/Bulgarian descent claim themselves as 'Macedonian'. Many such people in the past became national benefactors(e.g. Aberov,Tsakalov) and some of them didn't even knew how to speak Greek(Capitan Kottas, fought for Greek independence in Macedonia against the Bulgarian comitats).

"Have you ever read some of the recent international human rights evaluations on Greece and minority rights?"
Yes i have, how about it? Have you on the other hand tried to read human rights about people in FYROM who say they are Bulgarian, and were inspired by what Lupso Georgievski, your former prime minister did?

"Do you think they are OUR propaganda?"
To a certain extent no, i don't think so, although i don't have any doubt that they are being supported either by FYROM or by FYROM diaspora(particularly George Soros).

"Seems our 2m ppl and poor country, holds some mighty grip on international bodies ;)"
Ah, but this is a misleading statement. Of course FYROM on it's own doesn't have the power to do much, as it's a small and new country. However i'm certain that you are well aware of the level of support you receive from the US.

Why do you think that US supports you so much? Is it out of their good will and heart that they want to see a 'free' and 'prosperous' 'Macedonia', or is it because they want to be using you as servants(along with other eastern european countries) in order place a foothold against Russia's expanding energy pipelines into Europe?

Greece used to be one of those 'puppet states' back in the 50's and 60's, entirely relying on the US. When they felt that Greece wasn't as useful or cooperative anymore, and it was becoming too 'leftist' they engineered a military dictatorship that lasted for 7 years, plus mechanized the scheme for the division and occupation of Northern Cyprus.

So, as long as they judge you are useful to them they will assist you, because in reality they will be assisting their own interests. If however they find that you are not further useful to them, they will seek another ally in the area, that is willing to do more. In your case these are the Albanians. Just look what happened to Serbia and Kosovo. Believe me, i much more prefer to have your country as a neighbor, rather than a Greater Albania (Albania, Kosovo, half of today's FYROM) that will be looking to extend it's territories to the Greek province of Epirus.

Your country's people are making a big mistake by relying that much on the US. An alliance with the powerful is not to be trusted.

Lastly, Greece will not be able to ever accept a name that will be 'Macedonia', or 'Macedonia (Skopje)', or 'Republic of the Democracy of Macedonia' or similar names that essentially equal to 'Macedonia'. Greece has taken the big step by agreeing to come in the middle and accept a composite name, instead of one that will not have any derivate of the word 'Macedonia'. Now it is your turn to make the step, and agree on a common name(e.g. New Macedonia as in New Zealand or New Mexico) that will specify that your country, it's history, and the people living in it, are an entirely different place than the neighboring Greek province of historical Macedonia. Otherwise i'm afraid that if no solution comes up, you'll be shooting yourselves on the foot and in 5-7-10 years time FYROM's going to be absorbed by Albania on one side, and Bulgaria on the other.

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

realy long post, its gonna take me some time to answer all the questions raised here. but, at least i am glad we are talking. as much as i have friends in athens, i have also seen numbers of hotheads who cant be talked to.

the background of the fight 45-49, is yalta agreement. stalin, churchill, roosevelt divided post war europe, in 43`. stalin was true to his word, and let allies have greece. macedonians, at least most of them in aeagian, were in the same boat with ur communists, and got hit rly hard. so, i do believe here is where truth begins to elude us. while its true that most of the bombs were provided by usa/uk, right wing greece went highly fashisoid, and same old practices from before the war went back in motion. senki does provoke the question about aegian, but, its far from movie on that topic. try to find some older macedonian movies, about the effects of that 45-49 conflict. i recommend "crno seme" from kiril cenevski
http://imdb.com/title/tt0179741/

i am sure its not popular movie in greece, but, watch it some time, if u can find it. its based on a book, and it gives a pic of what happened from our side, or rather, from the side of the ppl that were on the wrong side of the stick. you have seen croatia, bosnia, kosovo conflicts, do u think fights back then were nicer? or greeks are some kind of noble nation, diff then the balkan, or for that matter, rest of the world? it was a slaughter, and nasty one for that... no wonder u aint tought about it in schools... ppl dont leave homes where their parrent`s are burried without DIRE need.

you are talking about systematic targeting ... tell me, do you know, that macedonians that were expelled then, still cant return to their birth places? can u explain to me, how a DEMOCRATIC, LAW respecting country, as u claim greece is, aint letting ppl to visit their birth places simply because they have place of birth in aegean macedonia? we are talking about ppl with USA, canadian, australian passports. as far as i know, communist greeks expelled then were pardoned, and they can return, and some did. only macedonians cant ;)
about the DEEDS ... well, tell me, which law greece obey? those ppl cant even enter greece, with valid passports, and u are telling me, then can get their land in court? maybe they can, when we solve naming issue ... but guess what, i dont see that coming soon.

compromise? why for some strange reason, ppl in greece tend to think, that we have some other name for ourselfs, and we CHOOSE macedonia to try and rob something?
look at this, if u are so kind,pls
http://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1920.shtml
if there isnt some great manipulation in the usa documents, as far as i can tell, this is a genuine census paper in the usa from 1920. can u tell me what is that language called macedonian there? its obviously diff from greek, and bulgarian. i dont think usa had some agreement with us back then :)))

anyways, to be continued, ice cream call ;)

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Regarding 45-49 and the issues in the movie, i very much agree with what you say, however my point is that this it is highly irresponsible act to dress this up as a genocide, for the reasons mentioned in my previous messages. And as i have explicitly mentioned, i don't have any delusions about what happened at the time. However referring to this as a genocide, is a large distortion and bloating of facts.

People in Greece tend to think you have/had another name, because the former province of Yugoslavia that your country is located in today, used to be called 'Vardarska' before it was renamed as 'Macedonia' by Tito. Aside from that, there never was a country or ethnicity named 'Macedonian'(well obviously until the 90's), in the same way that there never was a country or ethnicity named Spartans or Athenians. After the ancient kingdom, the name was mostly geographical in meaning, although it continued to hold the ancient legacy of the greek kingdom. It is also worth noting that the geographical area of Macedonia is very different according to each time period. For example in antiquity, Macedonia was confined to about 50% of the present greek province of Macedonia. During Byzantine years, the term Macedonia was today's Western(Greek) and Eastern(Turkish) Thrace, along with a sizeable chunk of Bulgaria. Later on during the Ottomans, the term Macedonia signified what is today referred to as the geographical area of Macedonia(greek, bulgarian, and FYROM).

Regarding the link you provided, it has to do with foreign populations in the US. Please check http://usa.ipums.org/usa-action/faq.do#ques1 and more importantly http://usa.ipums.org/usa-action/faq.do#1 which state the nature of the data presented in there. It does state that 'Microdata are inherently flexible. One need not depend on published statistics from a census that compiled the data in a certain way, if at all', meaning that this is a collection of information that has not been processed for aggregate analysis, but rather as a collection of information provided by various individuals. So in essence what it says, was that in 1920 there were some people identifying themselves as 'Macedonians'. This isn't news to anyone, as a certain group of Bulgarians were identifying themselves as 'Macedonians' from as early as the late 19th century(after the treaty of Saint Stefano at 1870).

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

"However referring to this as a genocide, is a large distortion and bloating of facts."
Large skale killing, and expulsion of population. Systematic. Effects, changing the ethnic structure of region. How this doesnt qualify as genocide? There were also greeks affected, based on political belief? I wont go in the scale of greeks affected, simply cause i havent had contacts with them, and combined with the facts that most of them were pardoned and allowed to go back, makes this genocide specificly targeted against macedonians, even if political background allowed it to happen in the first place. Also, communist greeks are also ppl :) Their involvement doesnt make the crime lesser, it makes it bigger, more ppl got hurt.

The borders of geographic macedonia arent curved in stone, and yes, they have changed over the years. Not counting alexandars empire, our part, Pirin( the part in bulgaria) and Aegean macedonia (in greece "atm :)" ) are mostly Otoman province of macedonia, the last great empire in this part of the world, since 14th century.

Vardarska Banovina (means Vardar province), in kingdom yugoslavia, from 1918-1944 and was part of serbian propagnda effort, to erase macedonian conciesness from the ppl, where macedonian language and names were banned, and toponims changed, same as in greek and bulgarian parts of macedonia after the balkan wars in 1913. If u are true historian, as your knowlidge in this matters sugest, you will admit the changing of the toponims. And naming of the places is identifier of the ppl living there. Or stunts like publishing the "abecedar", the books for learning macedonian in aegean macedonia, after the presure of europe, in early 20 century, and not giving it to the ppl there ;)

The link (usa census from 1920) proves a point that most of greek/bulgarian propaganda tries to negate, that there is a macedonian language (and ofc, ethnicity)

MY POINTS:
1. macedonian nation is formed with the process starting in late 19 century, which seems you aint opossing. Since greek and bulgarian nations are formed in early 19century, does that mean that 50 years gives you all the right to call us imposters? Simple matter of forming of bourgeoisie as class was late here, and thats the principle material for forming a nation ...
This aint 1991, when socialist republic of macedonia, formed 1944, left yugoslavia. 1944 is the year of forming the state, and the nation is formed late 19 century, not that far behind rest of the nations around. Name is based on region that ppl lived in, not that strange, is it? Out of the scope of this reply is the naming and changing of names of the other nations in the balkans

2. history. I do acknowlidge that history is often sinonim with forgery, when interests are concerened, but i havent seen so far, that we have the sole right on this one ... our historians have forged no more then the others, as far as i have seen ;) so, i always take ownership claims with grain of salt. do u? or rest of ppl involved in history claims ;>
i have never claimed greatness that goes as far back as alexandar, only the name goes that far back. but, I do have 3/4 grandparents claiming themselves as macedonians, the 4th being montenegrian settler over here. We are talking of ppl born as late as 1911, and while they were alive, they knew what they were ... and no one forced them to declare anything after 1945. More then that, too much macedonian nationalism was considered bad, and ppl were prosecuted for things like that.

3. matter of fact is that atm, macedonia aint trying to change borders, or has any means for it. borders doesnt change cause of noble feeling, money makes the world go round. ottoman province of macedonia was conquered and divided between greece, bulgaria and serbia in the balkan wars, with money from europe great powers, trying to cut down on turkish influence in the world/europe. so, u dont have anything to fear from us, but the great powers, and that rly aint up to us.
atm, modern macedonian family has 1-2 child, so we dont have birth rate of rural albanians that made posible for them to change ethnic picture in some regions, nor the mafia money to fund wars. modern macedonian doesnt dream of killing ppl so we can call a piece of land ours. but human rights, like dignity, or ownership of ones house, are not negotiable, i think, and no sensible human being will contradict me on this one.

4. greece claims we stole their history. I will not go talk about whos right, whos not here, its besides the point. since when you can tell others what name will they choose for themselves? only place that things like that happen, is school, where the local bully is calling smaller children derogatory names. Only , I repeat only reason that this dispute is going this far is cause atm, you are more powerfull. Decades of usa/uk money, 240 000 greek soldiers towards ours 8000. Thats the only right atm that has your side going, nothing else. Brute force, and none historical mambo jumbo.
I CAN NOT MAKE THIS ANY SIMPLER: if someone is calling you name that you didnt like, will you change it, just so he will stop bugging you? I have a friend from athens ... his real name isnt known to me(pavlopoulus or similar), but he and his gf called him Paul. Thats westernised Pavle, biblical name. We have it here, and some of our friends, drunk, call him Pavle at some point. He got mad, and there was heated dispute. In the end, even if Pavle was closer to his real name, if you wanted to have him as friend, you had to call him Paul, or you would just make him mad ... when not drunk, my friend, macedonians, respected his wishes, so they can keep him as a friend.
My name is Goran. But friends call me G-le, or Kefi, depending do they know me from highschool/work or from suburb neighborhood. I like them all, and use them all. But, i like to think, that is my right to choose my name. No other reason then imminent death would make me change it. Is that the limit greece will go, so it can avoid paying reparations for crimes made in past? Try to bring ppl fearing for lives so they will do as you please? Do you think thats good base for friendship and living next to each other?

5. http://youtube.com/watch?v=6p5XfYtESr0
I would like to end this idea that macedonians in aegean are fictional. Its a simple song. A friend of mine is singing, so I can tell how about the background of the song. She likes old folk songs, and she often visits old ladies, in god forgotten villages. Old granmas are singing for her, songs from their childhood, and she records, and learning them at home. Thats how some of our old folk songs are surviving. She, and the band she is, as few other bands, are into this kind of music. MY POINT... can you tell the name of the song? “mori chupi kosturchanki” meaning, “you girls from kostur region”. I am not translator, so I am sorry about the ackwardness, but the point is, THIS IS A SONG FROM THE KOSTUR region, as the name implies. Its a lovely simple song, from the ppl living near kostur, in todays greece, one of the towns that had its name changed into kastoria. The song has NO POLITICAL background, but beyond any doubt tell us that significant macedonian population exist/existed there. The language is macedonian, the song is, simple song from the ppl living in that region.
Here is another one, in a bit of jazzy arangement, different band
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J9caua3DPvE

Second part in this clip is a song called “tvoite ochi leno mori”, meaning, “your eyes Leno(short for elena)”. Another simple love song, just, I happen to know that this is also song from the same region. Another friend, but technique used for getting the words/music is the same. Old ladies singing childhood songs ...
What is fictional about those ppl living there, singing their songs?

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

How convenient, milco himself talks for one of your newspapers ...
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=113,id=45439232

I am afraid, I dont understand greek, and no english translation is available, but, i got macedonian translation of the article in our press, so I will trust it is fairly correct.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

I've read it and he more or less says what you've been discussing here. Take a look at http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.enet.gr%2Fonline%2Fonline_text%2Fc%3D113%2Cid%3D45439232+&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
which as an automated translation from Greek to English. Not very accurate, but it 's good enough in order to understand what is being said.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

In reply to your points:

Point 1 sections.
---------

"macedonian nation is formed with the process starting in late 19 century, which seems you aint opossing."
---------------------------
Exactly, the 'macedonian' NATION(aka macedonian question), started to take shape during the late 19th century, as there was no such nationality(as in ethnic) before.

A very enlighting document is placed here http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Macedonian_question , which is an article published at 1871, and makes the first ever public mentioning of a 'Macedonian' ethnicity. The article mentions that the formation of a 'Macedonian' ethnicity started about 5-10 years prior to the article's publication(thus at the 1860's), by groups of southern Bulgarians living in the geographical area of Macedonia. Make sure you read it thoroughly, as i'm sure you'll find it interesting even if you don't agree with it.

Another very informative resource is http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters , a book written by Krste Misirkov (i suppose a well known historic personality today in FYROM), where he states his thoughts for what looks like breaking away from the Bulgarians while the 'Macedonians' are in fact Bulgarians.

"Since greek and bulgarian nations are formed in early 19century, does that mean that 50 years gives you all the right to call us imposters? Simple matter of forming of bourgeoisie as class was late here, and thats the principle material for forming a nation ..."
---------------------------
The Greek and Bulgarian nations pre-existed long before 19th century. Bulgarians came during the Middle Ages, while the Greeks have a much older presence. What happened in the 19th century was that Greece and Bulgaria gained their independence as sovereign states. Today's FYROM, gained it's first semi-official recognition during the 1940's as a Yugoslav province for Yugoslavia's political reasons against Bulgaria, and it's sovereignity during the 1990's after the breakup of Yugoslavia.

"This aint 1991, when socialist republic of macedonia, formed 1944, left yugoslavia. 1944 is the year of forming the state, and the nation is formed late 19 century, not that far behind rest of the nations around."
--------------------
Again i agree if that's your point. The fact is that the only Macedonian identity up to that point was the Greek one (coming from the ancient kingdom). The late 19th century it's when effectively the Macedonian question was born, raised by the Bulgarians. Bulgarians were not the only ones of course, Serbs, Albanians and even Romanians(!) tried to claim these lands and their history but with not much success.

"Name is based on region that ppl lived in, not that strange, is it?"
---------------------------
In this context, if you call yourselves Macedonians what should the Greek people that live in Macedonia call themselves as?

Point 2 sections

"... our historians have forged no more then the others, as far as i have seen ;) so, i always take ownership claims with grain of salt. do u? or rest of ppl involved in history claims ;>"
---------------------------
Come on now, don't tease me, if there was a world record for forging history your historians will win it hands down. A simple example out of the many existing, is at this link http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/ , a university(!!) study that shows that the second language(among ancient Greek and Egyptian Hieroglyphics) in the Rosetta stone found in Egypt, is not Demotic Egyptian but 'Macedonian'(!!!). The same 'study' is also hosted at http://www.exploringmacedonia.com/?ItemID=84575BDBCB84D64485EB498B60F6CB63 which is the site of your country's national tourism organization. When universities, and the public sector(instead of some random unbalanced individual) supports this kind of amazing claims, it's a sign that the forgery issue is getting out of control.

"i have never claimed greatness that goes as far back as alexandar, only the name goes that far back."
I assume you mean that you don't consider that your people has anything to do with the ancient Macedon. That's good to know, since it shows that at least you are realistic about some things.

"but, I do have 3/4 grandparents claiming themselves as macedonians, the 4th being montenegrian settler over here. We are talking of ppl born as late as 1911, and while they were alive, they knew what they were... and no one forced them to declare anything after 1945. More then that, too much macedonian nationalism was considered bad, and ppl were prosecuted for things like that."
I respect that, but keep in mind that there are people here that used to live as far as the 1910's(they're about a 100 years old now) and they also knew, and know, and will know what they are. With regards to the 'Macedonian' question, i've provided relevant information on my previous answers in this post.

Point 3
----------
"matter of fact is that atm, macedonia aint trying to change borders, or has any means for it."
---------------------------
I'd like to believe that but i can't for the following reasons:
- a certain amount of schoolbooks, have pictures of the 'Greater Macedonia'
- the military academies, have maps of the 'Greater Macedonia'
- the prime minister of the country has no problem paying tribute on monuments that again, have maps of the 'Greater Macedonia' attached on top of them.

"borders doesnt change cause of noble feeling, money makes the world go round."
---------------------------
It's no so much a matter of FYROM muscling things up in order to change the borders. It's a matter of a future scenario, where a much stronger state(e.g. Turkey or the US), will start using the 'Macedonian' issue as a false pretense for creating troubles to Greece, and then the border changes will become very realistic.

"ottoman province of macedonia was conquered and divided between greece, bulgaria and serbia in the balkan wars, with money from europe great powers, trying to cut down on turkish influence in the world/europe."
---------------------------
The Ottoman's were falling apart on their own. The reason the Europeans assisted the 3 opposing countries, was because the Sultan allied later on with Germany on the first 1st war world.

"so, u dont have anything to fear from us, but the great powers, and that rly aint up to us."
---------------------------
I've provided a relevant reply a couple of paragraphs above. In short, it's not your country that is feared, but rather the using of your country by a great power as an excuse, if you understand what i mean.

"atm, modern macedonian family has 1-2 child, so we dont have birth rate of rural albanians that made posible for them to change ethnic picture in some regions, nor the mafia money to fund wars. modern macedonian doesnt dream of killing ppl so we can call a piece of land ours."
---------------------------
The land you occupy today is yours and nobody(apart maybe from the Albanians) are trying to claim that. We all want to have friendly neighbors and live a prosperous and peaceful life along with each other.

"but human rights, like dignity, or ownership of ones house, are not negotiable, i think, and no sensible human being will contradict me on this one."
---------------------------
I agree that these shouldn't be negotiable.

Point 4.
"greece claims we stole their history. I will not go talk about whos right, whos not here, its besides the point. since when you can tell others what name will they choose for themselves?......"
---------------------------
I'm glad you bring this up. First of all no one can tell you what you are going to call yourself as. You can call yourself Macedonian or whatever else you feel like. If all you wanted was to call yourself Macedonian i don't think that there would be any serious trouble with Greece now. The problem is that you also want to have the history and the lands of the original Macedonia as well.

"Only , I repeat only reason that this dispute is going this far is cause atm, you are more powerfull."
---------------------------
No, even if there was US, EU, Russia and China combined against Greece, Greece would never accept the surrendering of it's history.

"Decades of usa/uk money, 240 000 greek soldiers towards ours 8000. Thats the only right atm that has your side going, nothing else. Brute force, and none historical mambo jumbo."
---------------------------
Actually, you are very wrong about this. If it was just a matter of brute force, Greece would have had immediately accepted the invitation from Milosevits at 1991, to invade and occupy the northern part of FYROM(Bitola, Ohrid etc), with Serbia occupying the northern part of it. We live in Europe and in the 21st century, and although the Balkans are quite an uneasy area, all efforts should be concentrated on diplomacy.

Again speaking about force and sizes, don't forget that at the recent Bucharest summit Greece had to say 'No', not only to your country, but essentially to the US.

"I CAN NOT MAKE THIS ANY SIMPLER: if someone is calling you name that you didnt like, will you change it, just so he will stop bugging you? "
---------------------------
Ok let's have an example.

Say that my name is Goran as well. And that our common surname is Goranovski(just a random name i could think of).
- If we live in different cities or countries or even neighborhoods, this is just a mere coincidence and has no effects.

- Later on, if i decide to move in the same building you live in, then there's probably going to be some problem with the mail handling and the door bells, but other than that no serious problem.

- If however me, Goran Goranovski, start to claim that i am you, and that your identity is my identity, and that your belongings are my belongings, this does create a serious problem. You will have to sue me in order to prove that you are the real Goran. If however the court can't decide who's who for real, than a compromise should be reached. Obviously none of us will like the fact that a compromise has to be made, but in order to move on this will have to be done. So you will have to call yourself Goran 1st floor, and i'm going to be Goran 2nd floor.

That's why you can't have the name you are asking for. Analogous to this example, is the city called 'Macedonia' in Ohio, US. It's far away, and people don't claim that their identity is the one of the Greek Macedonia.

"But, i like to think, that is my right to choose my name. No other reason then imminent death would make me change it. Is that the limit greece will go, so it can avoid paying reparations for crimes made in past? Try to bring ppl fearing for lives so they will do as you please? Do you think thats good base for friendship and living next to each other?"
---------------------------
I think that it is very unfortunate, that a group of people from your country, has brainwashed the entire population to this point, and i feel bad about it. Noone is threatening you with imminent death, noone is threatening your lives, noone is threatening your homes. If you want an example of a person who's damaging your country and it's future that's your current goverment(and i hope not the future one).

Point 5

"http://youtube.com/watch?v=6p5XfYtESr0
I would like to end this idea that macedonians in aegean are fictional. Its a simple song........."
---------------------------
As i said before, i don't dispute your people's existence, and traditions and customs in any part of Macedonia. These are good to have, honour and remember. What i deny is your dispute of the Greek history and lands. Therefore it is the dispute's claims(historical, geographical and otherwise) that are fictional, not your people.

MY POINT
---------
Simple point really...If you feel so strong that your cause is fair, and you are absolutely crystal clear convinced that you are right about the name issue, then i am sure you can understand why the Greeks and the people living in the Greek province of historical Macedonian, feel the same way about it. There's no way that anybody in Greece(especially the one's living in the province of Macedonia) will give away the name, it's history and it's identity. So there are 2 options ahead:
- either the 2 countries remain hostile against each other and no progress will ever be made, with FYROM being constantly endangered by the Albanians.

- a compromise is made, that satisfies both. Almost 80% of people here are against a compromise and use of any form of the word 'Macedonia' in your country's name. Personally i feel that a fair compromise must be made since things have reached that far, and thankfully so does the government and the political parties. A compromise means that Greece will have to agree to a composite name containing the word 'Macedonia', and you will have to agree that this name represents your ethnicity, symbols, language, and history, which will be different from the already existing ones in the Greek province of Macedonia, and that you have no territorial claims against Greece.

Instead of giving earth and water to the United States, which are located thousands of miles away, and although today they fully support you maybe tomorrow they'll have a change of plans and you will not be as important to them; you should be more concerned with having good relations with your neighboring countries, and not endanger your EU participation.

[–] perboris 16 years ago

yotsi if you so good in "Greek" history please tell me why after 1989 the greek province Northen Greece and Tracia was renamed in Macedonia, and Thesalloniki airport renamed in Macedonia?????????

PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE FILM NOT ABOUT YOUR HISTO(E)RY

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Oh ok. Sorry we forgot to ask for your permission first.

Let me ask the contrary, why should Greece NOT have the option to name any airport, or any harbour, or any ship, or any museum, or any plazza as Macedonia, whenever it wants, however it wants?

This is ridiculous even to ponder. If you can't understand the above, you'll be asking the same question all and all over again in a vicious circle.

[–] fovesna 16 years ago

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317189,00.html

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Finder's keeper's fovesna, it seems like searching about sex on the Internet(on Fox News naturally) is the best answer you can come up towards my reply to your message. No more serious talk with you anymore, you've lost the privilege of mutual respect.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Enough with the nonsense. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#Usage_in_warfare, and the part where it says against who the Greek National army used it against for. If you want to convince yourself otherwise, you'll always call others as morons.

[–] mercurythree 16 years ago

propaganda shmopaganda...i'm macedonian.my grandfather was exiled back in the days
from kukus aka kilkis and belive me he's family wasnt the only one.talking about propaganda...with the fall of yugoslavia, greek gov renames streets,squares.. into macedonia and thus begining the farse conflict with the name issue to cover up the
real issue the exodus of macedonians.now with the alleged name issue greece will veto macedonia EU integration because if macedonia happens to join EU at some point the issue of the properties of aegeian exiled macedonians will raise and belive me thats equal to major crisis in greece. as the ol sayin goes "better prevent it then cure it". "PEOPLE PLEASE STOP HERE" you've done a good job so far stoping us, but for how long?

p.s. the movie sux!

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

mercurythree, i respect your grandfather's history and suffering during the exile, but your grandfather was a political refugee of the Greek civil war, and not a victim of ethnic cleansing as this movie would like to present(however much the movie may suck in terms of entertainment or not). Yes, they were persecuted, Slavs, Bulgarians, Communist Greeks and all USSR allied forces and sympathizers, but that's exactly what constitutes a political refugee.

With the fall of Yugoslavia Greece didn't rename anything. The renaming of places occurred much earlier, after the end of the Balkan Wars, and Greece renamed places that had Turkish or Slavic names, to their Greek counterparts(originating from Byzantine or Ancient Greece). And speaking of renaming things, how wise is it of you to recently rename the country's main airport to 'Alexander airport', and Skopje main square to 'Pella square'? Not very..

Greece is going to veto again and again the accession of your country to NATO
and EU, as there is absolutely no way that Greece will ever agree to giving away
the name and history of Macedonia. Since you are made to believe the same thing, it is obvious that a compromise solution must be made between the 2 parties(i.e. an effective composite name), because we cannot live for ever like this.

'you've done a good job so far stoping us, but for how long?'
For as long as it takes until you understand that it is against your
own interest to:
- provoke your neighbor on such a delicate issue(keeping in mind EU, NATO, and friendly relationships in general), by claiming not only the name of Macedonia, but it's history, culture and disputing present day areas inside Greece.

- worry more about maintaing good relations with the US rather than Greece

- continuing to copycat Greek and Bulgarian history, culture and language(Bulgarian) and claim as your own.

Bottom line, Gruevski and VMRO in general, have brainwashed you since the mid 90's, and their hardline politics are driving your country into the abyss. Wake up, see what is going on around you, think clearly, and start acting sanely.

[–] mercurythree 16 years ago

what is wrong with u people? ...tbh i have a slight idea what it is, cause i live among people too, and from my professional opinion the majority is plane stupid. what is true of stupidity of men over the globe is doubled here on the balkans. brainwashing, loads of it! here, there in greece..."by claiming not only the name of Macedonia.." are u insane m8? now u have to agree with me; i can name my son stanley kubrick and ofc u can argue that i have claimed the name of a great greek movie director and deny me all u want but that my friend is Fascism! i dont mind if tomorrow we change the name into the borg but what i mind is fascists with history book under their arm who pretend to know what they r saying...did u know theres a province in belgium called luxembourg bordering with luxembourg? u dont see them mind the fact. but ofc u do! and why r u so special? now, every sharpminded person can see that theres more to it. now people (neutral) from outside have argued (who actually dont give a damn) wonder why is there an issue over the name, like, its so banal! now people who are diretcly concerned by this (like me) can tell u exactly why but i dont wanna go trough that cause u aint gonna listen and u gonna again lecture me in history. and i dont need to remind u
that history changes and its the last exact science..say have u watched the new docu on first native americans? its revolutionary! scientists have discovered that
the first ones arrived there 40000 years ago not 13000 like it was believed til now. and they didnt came only from syberia they came from all over the world! japan even western europe! now with history out of the game u (u, not all greeks, cause i know some cool greeks) are left with ure common sense which u lack...i guess ure only weapon now is fascism. and u should be proud. lots of great men were fascists. and some bad news dont know if u have heard of it goes something like this..soon in the european council there can bee no veto. all issues will be resolved by voting u know 2/3 consensus!

cheers!

p.s. "In this context, if you call yourselves Macedonians what should the Greek people that live in Macedonia call themselves as?"
-----------------------------------------------------

the borg maybe? klingons? macedonians?

is this an argument?
tho u should concider going into prof politics. ppl will love u!

...uve been reading too much bulgarian literature it seems...some of my friends feel as bulgarians and im cool with that, but the irony man! bulgarians like it! they even give us bulgarian passports, and when we feel like macedonians u give us the finger and a veto :(

btw u r lost in ure explanations to kefi. u have to decide either we r bulgarians which ure wikipedia links suggests or we r stealing their history.i dont have to remind u that if we r bulgarians we cant steal from us.now
if u wanna be more credibile u have to stick with one; nonbulgarian bandits or bulgarians who wanna be greeks.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

"
...now u have to agree with me; i can name my son stanley kubrick and ofc u can argue that i have claimed the name of a great greek movie director and deny me all u want but that my friend is Fascism! "
I've already responded to this argument. Once again, it's not about only the name ! I could be named John Smith as millions of others are, and have no problem with either one of them. If however i happened to not only live in the door next to another John Smith, but i also claimed to be the actual John Smith dismissing the other one as a fake, then there would be all sorts of trouble(legal etc). In short, you can't have 2 areas with the same name that are located next to each other and belong to different countries, and one of these also claims the history, lands and culture of the other one. If all you wanted was to be called Macedonia and Macedonians, without claiming anything else from the neighboring Greek area of Macedonia, then there wouldn't be any problems. Is this so difficult to understand?

"did u know theres a province in belgium called luxembourg bordering with luxembourg? u dont see them mind the fact."
In fact i do. This is a good example of an existing issue between Belgium and Luxembourg. Let me mention a few others:
- France vetoed UK's entry into NATO at 60's, because UK wanted to enter as 'Great Britain' while France has a neighboring province named 'Britagne'(Britain). Only after UK agreed to enter as UK France lifted the veto.

- China vetoed Taiwan's entry into the UN, because Taiwan wanted to enter as 'Republic Of China', while China is 'People's Republic Of China'

- US named one of their southernmost states as 'New Mexico' in order to internationally distinguish it from the neighboring country of Mexico.

"...and i dont need to remind u that history changes"
History changes by the people, not on it's own.

"say have u watched the new docu on first native americans? its revolutionary! scientists have discovered that the first ones arrived there 40000 years ago not 13000 like it was believed til now."
I kind of miss the point. In the same way, we all came from Africa a few tens of thousands years ago. Yes we're both human beings, but this doesn't mean i'll share my toothbrush with you(among other things).

"now with history out of the game u (u, not all greeks, cause i know some cool greeks) are left with ure common sense which u lack...i guess ure only weapon now is fascism"
Why?

"soon in the european council there can bee no veto. all issues will be resolved by voting u know 2/3 consensus!"
You better not sleep on it. Your best chance is to have a good relationship with neighboring Greece, and not rely on allies that are far away and only have a temporary interest in your country.

"
p.s. "In this context, if you call yourselves Macedonians what should the Greek people that live in Macedonia call themselves as?"

the borg maybe? klingons? macedonians?

is this an argument? "
Why is it not? Do you find it a trivial issue, how various commercial products, agreements, people, and places are to be distinguished internationally?

"..uve been reading too much bulgarian literature it seems...some of my friends feel as bulgarians and im cool with that, but the irony man! bulgarians like it! they even give us bulgarian passports, and when we feel like macedonians u give us the finger and a veto"
Of course they like it. Because they consider you Bulgarians, and although they recognize you as 'Macedonia' they deny the existence of a 'Macedonian' language and 'Macedonian' people but instead say these are Bulgarian language and people.

"btw u r lost in ure explanations to kefi. u have to decide either we r bulgarians which ure wikipedia links suggests or we r stealing their history.i dont have to remind u that if we r bulgarians we cant steal from us.now
if u wanna be more credibile u have to stick with one; nonbulgarian bandits or bulgarians who wanna be greeks."
I think you pretend you don't understand and you're playing with words, but i'll explain it once more. You're stealing history from Bulgarians by claiming that Bulgarian history is in fact Macedonian history. All the national holidays and heroes are the same for crying out loud! Your former prime minister migrated to Bulgaria and called everybody in your country to embrace their Bulgarian identity. Even the spoken language is the same, but written differently(like Serbian).

However you deny that you are Bulgarians but instead say you are Macedonians, a group of people that historically originated in Greece and the people living in the Greek area of Macedonia today are called Macedonians and share the culture and history of the ancient and medieval Macedonia.

You're a new country, and have every right to fight for a better future, but not at the expense of others, namely Greece and Bulgaria. The soonest you realize that, the better for all.

[–] mercurythree 16 years ago

"If all you wanted was to be called Macedonia and Macedonians, without claiming anything else from the neighboring Greek area of Macedonia, then there wouldn't be any problems."

no one claims nothing. people are talking and this is where it ends, talks. yet u fear.

""say have u watched the new docu on first native americans? its revolutionary! scientists have discovered that the first ones arrived there 40000 years ago not 13000 like it was believed til now."
I kind of miss the point. In the same way, we all came from Africa a few tens of thousands years ago. Yes we're both human beings, but this doesn't mean i'll share my toothbrush with you(among other things)."

yeah u kind of do miss the point. the point was history can change dramatically ( and ofc it's changed by people(something new i learned from this discussion), and sometimes by the borg)... "It should not be necessary to engage in the childish debate about whether Alexander or ancient Macedon really was ‘Greek’ or not - every undergraduate student of nationalism knows that one cannot simply transpose modern national identities back onto ancient historical figures and lands; still less can ancient history be allowed to determine modern geopolitics." ...in short, drop with the history lessons! i know some macedonians have futile claims that we r the descendants of ancient macedonians but that is as ridiculous as modern greeks are descendants of ancient ones. as for ure toothbrush u can let me use it when u r ready to dispose it.

"p.s. "In this context, if you call yourselves Macedonians what should the Greek people that live in Macedonia call themselves as?"

the borg maybe? klingons? macedonians?

is this an argument? "
Why is it not? Do you find it a trivial issue, how various commercial products, agreements, people, and places are to be distinguished internationally?"

lets be honest! how many modern greek when asked where are they from reply "i'm spartan" or "i'm macedonian". i dont find it trivial, i find it lame.

"Of course they like it. Because they consider you Bulgarians, and although they recognize you as 'Macedonia' they deny the existence of a 'Macedonian' language and 'Macedonian' people but instead say these are Bulgarian language and people."

do u buy that?i mean seriously?sadly some macedonians i know, actually do. our ex prime-minister some historical figures...

"btw u r lost in ure explanations to kefi. u have to decide either we r bulgarians which ure wikipedia links suggests or we r stealing their history.i dont have to remind u that if we r bulgarians we cant steal from us.now
if u wanna be more credibile u have to stick with one; nonbulgarian bandits or bulgarians who wanna be greeks."

I think you pretend you don't understand and you're playing with words, but i'll explain it once more. You're stealing history from Bulgarians by claiming that Bulgarian history is in fact Macedonian history. All the national holidays and heroes are the same for crying out loud! Your former prime minister migrated to Bulgaria and called everybody in your country to embrace their Bulgarian identity. Even the spoken language is the same, but written differently(like Serbian).

now u made me understand. i'm bulgarian stealing bulgarian history.

now u need to understand something. people here are stupid; with identity crisis; poor.

"You better not sleep on it. Your best chance is to have a good relationship with neighboring Greece, and not rely on allies that are far away and only have a temporary interest in your country."

this will happen actually. and like ure national football representation will go home crying in the first round. yes, like some greek football fans stated just before the first match "we r here to cheer for our team and to proove that recent success wasnt a fluke". they were wrong. greatpowers alowing greece to veto macedonias NATO membership was also a fluke. this will change also.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

"no one claims nothing. people are talking and this is where it ends, talks. yet u fear."
---
The thing here is which 'people' are talking. When it comes to the prime minister and public authorities of your country, talk equals claims.

"yeah u kind of do miss the point. the point was history can change dramatically"
---
Ok yes, history can change dramatically for a number for a reasons. Does this mean we should not pay attention to history or even have one? How will we be able to define ourselves then? Isn't this what the real problem is about? FYROM needing recorded history to change dramatically in order to gain an identity and a link to the past?

"It should not be necessary to engage in the childish debate about whether Alexander or ancient Macedon really was ‘Greek’ or not - every undergraduate student of nationalism knows that one cannot simply transpose modern national identities back onto ancient historical figures and lands; still less can ancient history be allowed to determine modern geopolitics."
---
People are linked to their history, governments are linked to their peoples votes, and modern geopolitics are defined by governments. It's as simple as that. Also, could you please state the source of your quote, i'd be interested to see where this comes from.

"in short, drop with the history lessons! i know some macedonians have futile claims that we r the descendants of ancient macedonians but that is as ridiculous as modern greeks are descendants of ancient ones."
---
This is interesting. So although you personally feel you don't have anything to do with the historical Macedonia, you also feel that Greece shouldn't have anything to do with it also. Why?

"lets be honest! how many modern greek when asked where are they from reply "i'm spartan" or "i'm macedonian". i dont find it trivial, i find it lame. "
---
Many, and i am being honest about it. People have a strong connection to their places and when asked within the country they say, i'm Cretian, Pelloponisian, Macedonian, Spartan, Athenian, Thracian and so on. Whether you find it lame or not, it's your personal preference, other people don't.

"do u buy that?i mean seriously?sadly some macedonians i know, actually do. our ex prime-minister some historical figures... "
---
I don't buy it, i believe so. From the middle ages up to the early 20th century Bulgarians fought so hard against the Greeks for settling in Macedonia, that a group of them eventually started to call themselves as actual 'Macedonians', during the late 19th century. To commemorate the event, they've also set an anniversary date later on(Illiden uprising against the Ottomans, yet another Bulgarian anniversary).

"now u made me understand. i'm bulgarian stealing bulgarian history. "
---
The 'stealing' bit goes to that people in FYROM were made to deny their real identity and instead dress it up as 'Macedonian'.

"now u need to understand something. people here are stupid; with identity crisis; poor. "
---
I understand that there is an identity crisis in your country, and this is a serious issue, especially with a much greater and realistic threat(Albanians) waiting at the corner.

"this will happen actually. and like ure national football representation will go home crying in the first round."
---
Oh come on now. You choose to disregard the importance of history, but instead opt on mentioning football? As for the disqualification, yes well it's a pity, but what can you do, miracles happen only once in every few decades.

"greatpowers alowing greece to veto macedonias NATO membership was also a fluke. this will change also. "
---
Great powers allowing Greece? Remind me, wasn't it the United States(essentially NATO itself) with that complete tool Bush, that were putting huge amounts of pressure to Greece in order to let FYROM in? I'm telling you again, an alliance with the powerful is not to be trusted, today they may support you for their own interests, tomorrow they may turn against you and find another 'ally' to promote(i.e. Albanians) at the expense of your own country(they already did so with Kosovo and Serbia). Worry more about establishing good relationships with your neighbors.

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

missed me? :)

the prime minister u like to quote about changing nationality is certified mentaly ill. why we let him become prime mister doesn't speak well for us, but i wouldnt use him as example of ppls feelings and all that. and, btw, he is free to change his national feelings like anyone else in this country, we are preety tolerant bunch. I do consider him a thief though, cause he did sold oil rafinery OKTA to YOU, greece, while getting large part of it for himself, and the deal is also very unfavorable for us. too bad, its not possible to prove anything, and so far no legal repercussions for him. but, politicly, he is burried, and walking joke nowdays, although, a very rich joke ;>

stop that nonsense about languages. if u rly want to learn something about it, try googling balkan language group, or balkan sprachbund. you will learn about similarities and differencies of all balkan languages, including modern macedonian. continuing to talk about macedonian being bulgarian with different letters does make u look stupid and ignorant. there are lots of places where u can find tons of info, including the net. better keep the subject to more familiar stuff :)

stealing history? again? meh, its true that lots, and i do mean lots of our national myths are fabrications, but, trust me, no more no less the rest of the world. who was ur national hero from the begging of the century, i am to lazy to search his name, who was talking about slavicized greeks? if u can base ur legacy about antic greece on ur language heritage, how can u say that ppl talking macedonian and bulgarian in aegian macedonia are greeks that just happen to learn slavic languages ;) and that was official policy of your country. if u wish, i can find quotes from your officals on the subject, but you should know this even better then me. was it karavangelis? cant find the quote, sorry

" Worry more about establishing good relationships with your neighbors. "

:) this is bit problematic. since, our very existence seems to trouble all around us :) shell we succumb and become bulgarians or greeks so we can live peacefully? not gonna happen soon :>

but sometimes i rly need to lough about politics ... you want us to have geographical reference in our name? northern macedonia? that implies existence of southern one, and one which should merge at some point ;) do you rly want that? :)))

on a more serious note, there was lengthy disscussion about macedonia/greece in bbc's blog, mark mardell. but, lots of rubbish, and very little info, except, that western powers are getting bit on our side, since they allow to even talk about it ;)

ah, about census in aegian macedonia from 1919, or 1920 ... there are some austrian books that had some data about it, publications from 1921, wien, i think. i am afraid i dont have more info then this, but u can try to find it for yourself. they used parts of the census that were never published, from aegian macedonia, or, new conquered territories, as your government used to call them back then. i think the comparative data was, 600k macedonian in todays macedonia, and 500k in aegian. and they did used terms "mazedonian" ...

with respect, Kefi

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Hi Kefi,

look, i reckon that this discussion is not getting anywhere, as you (and the rest of the otherwise minded posters here) insist on repeating the same things, and whatever i write and however thoroughly i place and back up my arguments, you either can't understand what i'm talking about or choose not to. In any way, the effort put is obviously not enough in order to build a common understanding out of our discussion.

The fact is, that it is against the interests of your country to further escalate this issue by provoking, instead of adopting a moderate stance and coming closer to a mutually acceptable solution. When the extremely nationalistic(in the bad sense) bubble that VMRO has created and is currently feeding will eventually burst, things will get so bad that you'll be forced on your own account to see what this was all about.

I only hope it won't be too late for you to change anything, when this happens. Your country has to get into EU(and maybe NATO too) in order to have a viable economic future, and have your lands secured.
Consider the following:
1) How will you be in 10 years from now, if this doesn't happen?

2) Will there even be a country to live in, or will it be geopolitically partitioned by UCK's Albanians, and financially destroyed by the upcoming global oil and banking crisis?

3) Why are you allowing a bunch of irresponsible mavericks in the government to drag your country into destruction, and make enemies out of all it's local neighbors?
/ Greece has 'stolen our history', 'oppressing our minorities', 'grabbed our lands', and 'just likes to be mean and bad'

/ Bulgaria has 'stolen our history', 'oppressing our minorities', 'grabbed our lands', and '{quote}Macedonians{quote} are not Bulgarians, but Bulgarians are {quote}Macedonians{quote}'(lol, that's a good one)

/ Serbia, 'we didn't really have any problems with Serbia, but US wanted us to(e.g. asked us to recognize Kosovo and it's borders) so we went ahead and created some'.

/ and Albania 'grabbed our lands'(western bit of lake Prespa)

4) Are you nationally proud about your government's foreign policy, to cheerfully jump up and down each time the US administration claps their hands? Do you find it honorable and noble to act like a US protectorate?

These are the real questions, that need real answers. For the love of God man, just wake up and act responsibly for your own sake and for the sake of the region.

sincerely,
Yorgos

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

:)
well, you got right the stakes. our state is in jepardy, the very existance of it.

and, you recommend that we sell our identity? changing of the name" republic of macedonia", although humiliating, might be negotiated under presure. hell, the last offer from nimitz "republic of macedonia(skopje)" was accepted behind closed doors, before the nato summit. it was your government that flatly rejected this compromise... and it speculative that even slightly changed name can pass the public opp here...

but, there will be never any agreement which declares us anything different the macedonian, or forbid us to declare as macedonians. Our language is macedonian. cant you understand that we really don't have secondary name? there is no other identity that we can go back to ... would you accept changing your name, identity to enter nato and eu? to be a good neighbor?

partnership with usa... its rather simple... we started idealistic, and lost the conflict with albanians cause they had usa backing, we didnt. so, we did strike a deal. they are honoring it, so will we. we didnt get our country independent earlier, cause we didnt had major power backup till now. greece got its independence by the same rule, backing by major powers. check the history. any change in this region,and probably everywhere is decided by major powers, not by ppl in question. i dont like it, probably no one does, but its the reality. money makes the world go round.

when we started our discussion, i told u, the real problem is the lands of the ppl from aegian macedonia. and that question WILL show up eventually. it is starting to show its ugly head. lots of money, lots of grieved ppl. lots of land ...

let me quote a german online paper:
" ... The name ‘Republic of Macedonia,’ therefore, is not a phantom fear for us Greeks. It is linked with the deliberate plan to take over a part of Greek territory that has had a Greek identity for more than three millennia and is associated with immense pain and suffering by the Greek people. (dora bakoyannis)

The problem is not that Bakoyannis is hyping Greek fears; it is that she is conveying them frankly. The “deliberate plan” she describes is not military; it is anticipated, inexorable pressure to acknowledge the existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece.

The question is why does Greece find this so frightening? According to Greek scholar Triandafyllidou, the answer is in the very construct of the modern Greek nation state:

Since the achievement of national independence (1829-30), the Greek state has engaged in a process of construction in which its ethnic origins have been in remote antiquity. The historical trajectory of the nation has been traced in a linear form and without ruptures or discontinuities from antiquity to modernity. Thus, any changes which have marked the past and the history of the national community have been reconstructed in such a way that the nation is represented as a homogeneous and compact unit."

end qoute
link for full story
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,557092-2,00.html

so, one of YOURS historians talks about your myths. that your myths cant survive our very existence... so tell me, whats more important? that greeks can believe that they are the one and only successor of antic/hellenic culture, or as you say, having good relations with neighbors.

the leading party atm, vmro, didnt create anything ... they do support and enjoy the nationalistic frenzy that unfortunately, greece has created. the dominant thesis till now, was, that we are mostly slavic ppl, who has some connection with old macedonians. i mean, its rather logical, since we have slavic language, but the ppl inhabiting this lands didn`t just disappeared in thin air, did they? we never claimed direct line till now. and this new "theories" are fueled by you, i am afraid. btw, the slavs did come around 5-6 century, but also, they did inhabited the regions as south as pelopones. thats aegian macedonia, as far as i know about geography. what happened with all those ppl? they probably are now real greeks as we are pure blooded old macedonians. you dont want to hear our myths, but you dont have problems with your own?

we never had problems with some greeks claiming macedonian origin. you have problems with our claims of the same. until now at least. you have opened pandora`s box, not us. since no one here(sane at least) wasn`t contemplating getting aegian macedonia annexed, only real threat to your country was the question about the fugitives,and their rights. and that should be a legal question, not political, don`t you think so? just ... do you have any idea how much lawyers for international trials cost these days?

question for you. what makes greece so special to be the only country without significant minorities? maybe you should ask few questions to your history teachers ....

regards, goran

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

again, let me point some foreign online magazine, and this one is even on topic, review of the movie ;)
link for the full article first
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/movie_review/shadows-senki.htm

and, interesting quote for the lazy ones ...

"For those inside that culture, even that slightest reference to Kalina’s extinct dialect evokes the following specifics. In 1912 Greece allied with Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro, declaring war on Turkey. While this ended the Ottoman Empire’s occupation of Macedonia, it led directly to Macedonia’s partition among its neighbors. In Aegean Macedonia, Greece embarked upon a decades-long campaign to change the population’s ethnic composition, forcibly expelling hundreds of thousands, confiscating lands, forbidding languages, renaming places, plundering and destroying villages, and re-colonizing the area with ethnic Greeks from nations to the east. During the Greek Civil War of the late 1940s this campaign accelerated anew. 60,000 were expelled in 1948. Some internments from the mid-40s continued until 1974—the year of Lazar’s mother’s anatomy class—and as late as 1985 Greek laws governing that area excluded Aegean Macedonian descendants from reclaiming confiscated land. In 1991, the modern Republic of Macedonia emerged from the upheaval of Yugoslavia’s disintegration by referendum. "

this has nothing to do with myths about alexandar, which are starting to annoy me personally. we can dispute that the region macedonia wasnt a independent state before the partition, but which was? my beliefs are still that no country can claim continuity before capitalism/socialism (modern states)...

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Regarding Stylus Magazine, i'm sure you can find much better sources than this, a Canadian magazine with a couple of Slav 'Macedonian' staff movie reviewers, and a comment by a visitor that thinks otherwise at http://www.stylusmagazine.com/featurecomment.php?ID=3420. I could post a long list of links(as i already have done so through my various posts) that claim the exact opposite and are more objective and scientific, but then our discussion would turn to bibliography instead of discussion.

"this has nothing to do with myths about alexandar"
---
It does have to do with Alexander(everybody needs a hero and a historical background), but not into such a large degree any more.

"we can dispute that the region macedonia wasnt a independent state before the partition, but which was?"
---
Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro were. And it cannot be disputed that Macedonia was or wasn't an independent state before the partition. There never was a 'Macedonia' as you define it to be partitioned. What was partitioned was the geographical area of Macedonia, which was populated by Greeks, Slavs and BUlgarians.

"my beliefs are still that no country can claim continuity before capitalism/socialism (modern states)... "
---
True, but continuity is not established by countries, but by the ethnicities/people living in countries, and most importantly their language
and customs.

Regards,
Yorgos

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

"Regarding Stylus Magazine, i'm sure you can find much better sources than this, a Canadian magazine with a couple of Slav 'Macedonian' staff movie reviewers, and a comment by a visitor that thinks otherwise at http://www.stylusmagazine.com/featurecomment.php?ID=3420. I could post a long list of links(as i already have done so through my various posts) that claim the exact opposite and are more objective and scientific, but then our discussion would turn to bibliography instead of discussion."

my intention with all this foreign magazines quotes is rather simple, to show you that in the world exist different point of view then what you/your country is saying. so, i havent checked stylus magazine stuff, but the author of the text wasn't macedonian, at least as far as i can tell by looking at the name. so, there are ppl outthere that are taking our side in the dispute. only non greeks siding with you as far as i can see are politicians with direct interest. ( sarkosi, obama).

""we can dispute that the region macedonia wasnt a independent state before the partition, but which was?"
---
Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro were. And it cannot be disputed that Macedonia was or wasn't an independent state before the partition. There never was a 'Macedonia' as you define it to be partitioned. What was partitioned was the geographical area of Macedonia, which was populated by Greeks, Slavs and BUlgarians."

are you sure?
lets compare a bit ...
-i do remember macedonian kingdom (alexandar, philip era)
-i dont remember greek kingdom ... athena, sparta etc were city states (venecija, dubrovnik are similar).

middle ages
-no macedonia, but no greece either
- if u do mention byzantium, i would like to remind you, thats eastern part of roman empire. helenic culture was dominant in eastern roman kingdom, but that makes it greek? and its territory was nothing like todays greece.
there was a independent kingdom lead by Samuil around 980. we can dispute the name of his kingdom, but we cant dispute that his mainland was around Ohrid, which is rather important city of ours. the culture was also similar to ours, so, where do see the difference here? skopje was also capital of some serbian medievil kingdoms. so, we have states with different names, but centers of power in our respective countries... cant you see the similarities? if serbs or bulgarians accept to have our dialects as literature language, and put the center of powers in skopje, ohrid or bitola, we could become serbs or bulgarians, no problem. but they would never agree to that. similar, we wont accept to be ruled from distant lands, from ppl talking different language. ppl living in geographical region of macedonia, getting independent country, are calling it macedonia, and themselves macedonians? where is the problem here?

btw, how long a country`s legacy lasts to be considered legal to inherit its name? you can use names of countries old 400-500 years, but not 2000 years?

""my beliefs are still that no country can claim continuity before capitalism/socialism (modern states)... "
---
True, but continuity is not established by countries, but by the ethnicities/people living in countries, and most importantly their language
and customs. "

do you know that assimilation is by definition? if you have laws against speaking ones language, in public, even private places, you forbid ones education, arent you influencing the continuity? and this was/is still happening in aegean macedonia. you can always check the laws, if you dont believe the stories of ppl that went to jail simply for speaking macedonian.
or are the stories of whole villages made to swear not to speak the language just fairy tales ;)
the customs? i still can hear and see the songs and dances of the ppl down there, and boy,do they look familiar ...

sorry, getting really tired, gonna reply to the other later ...
regards, goran

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

"and, you recommend that we sell our identity?"
---
First of all, in order to sell something you must own it first. This is a fundamental rule of selling and buying. So complementing your question, why is it that the Greeks should sell their identity of Macedonia then? Because the United States boogies them to do so? Feel free to find whatever your identity is, but not at the expense of others.

"hell, the last offer from nimitz "republic of macedonia(skopje)" was accepted behind closed doors"
---
Come on, think about it. Republic of Macedonia(Skopje)?? This was a joke solution, one that the US 'whispered' to Nimitz(the supposedly independent UN mediator). It is clearly evident that a name like 'Republic of Macedonia(Skopje)' would immediately become 'Republic of Macedonia' plain. A realistic solution is needed.

"but, there will be never any agreement which declares us anything different the macedonian, or forbid us to declare as macedonians"
---
No, but since you insist on being called as 'Macedonians' there should be an agreement of what 'type' of Macedonians you are. E.g. Slav Macedonians with a Slav Macedonian language and a Slav Macedonian history. Macedonians in the 'Macedonia' city of Ohio-US for example are called plain Macedonians, because noone will confuse them for the Macedonians of Greece.

"cant you understand that we really don't have secondary name?"
---
In fact i can't, since on the other side of the border there's the historical region of Macedonia with people being called Macedonians.

"would you accept changing your name, identity to enter nato and eu? to be a good neighbor?"
---
No, and that's where the problem is. Greek Macedonians will never accept having their name and history taken by a neighboring country.

"we started idealistic, and lost the conflict with albanians cause they had usa backing"
---
Albanians had US backing them in Kosovo only(why? because amazingly enough tiny Kosovo has ~80% of Europe's lignite in it's soil, and lignite is used to product electricity). Regarding FYROM i don't think you lost anything(not yet at least), but i do understand you need to have a strong ally to keep Albanians at a distance. Instead of choosing EU though, you make a bad choice by turning to the US. EU has many reasons to be worried about FYROM, as well as any other country within it's area. US's interest is only temporary, and can change like the wind.

"greece got its independence by the same rule, backing by major powers"
---
Wrong, the major European recognized Greece at 1831, this is 10 years after the revolution of 1821, when there was no other option. At 1821 the doctrine was 'no change in borders and preservation at all costs' by Austrian Metternich(one of the most influential politicians of the time) and especially after Europe had experienced the Napoleonic wars. There was significant support by Europe, but it was by large numbers of individuals, not by governments.

"i dont like it, probably no one does, but its the reality."
---
I understand you don't like it, but this is one of the points i want to make. US will use you and then ditch you helpless, plain and simple, they've done so dozens of times before all over the planet. EU and your neighboring countries on the other hand, have a direct interest so that things are going well in your country.

"when we started our discussion, i told u, the real problem is the lands of the ppl from aegian macedonia"
---
I can tell you right now that this will be doomed to fail, provided that the name dispute does not clear first. The name(and identity) dispute, essentially freezes everything else. And regarding the land claims, nothing stopped or stops people to take it to the international courts. They haven't done so for 60 years. Why is that?

"The problem is not that Bakoyannis is hyping Greek fears; it is that she is conveying them frankly. The “deliberate plan” she describes is not military; it is anticipated, inexorable pressure to acknowledge the existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece."
---
There was a time that i would dismiss what Bakoyannis said as nonsense(as she would do as well). I don't anymore, and i also frankly believe the case she makes. The existence of a Slav minority in Greece is not disputed, what is disputed is the existence of a 'Macedonian' minority as you define it.

"The question is why does Greece find this so frightening?"
---
As i've explained in previous posts, is that FYROM on itself is not frightening, what's frightening is that a 3rd much stronger country(i.e. US or Turkey) could use this overall issue as a vehicle for creating troubles to Greece while serving their own interests. What greek historian Triandafyllidou mentions, is that Greece had to choose between her medieval past(Byzantine) and her ancient past, after 400 years of occupation. This has nothing to do with the current situation, where your country is trying to get an identity out of somebody else.

" so tell me, whats more important? that greeks can believe that they are the one and only successor of antic/hellenic culture, or as you say, having good relations with neighbors. "
---
Greece does not need to prove anything about whose successor it is and it is not. If anything, it is you who have to worry about finding an identity and at the same time maintaining good relations.

"the leading party atm, vmro, didnt create anything ... they do support and enjoy the nationalistic frenzy that unfortunately, greece has created."
---
How is it that Greece created a nationalistic frenzy, when the Greek flag is deformed with a swastika in public places in your capital, and your prime minister pays tribute to maps that illustrate Greek areas as parts of FYROM?

"the dominant thesis till now, was, that we are mostly slavic ppl, who has some connection with old macedonians."
---
Some connection with old Macedonians? What connection would that be?

". i mean, its rather logical, since we have slavic language, but the ppl inhabiting this lands didn`t just disappeared in thin air, did they?"
---
No they didn't, they were either scattered around places by the passing of time, or remained in Greece and today their descendants are Greek citizens.

"we never claimed direct line till now.and this new "theories" are fueled by you, i am afraid."
---
Ah ok. It must have been my wrong impression, because if i type 'Macedonia' in Google, out of all the .mk sites that come up(government or private) talk about the 'great history of Macedonia that lasts for centuries back to Alexander the Great'.

"btw, the slavs did come around 5-6 century, but also, they did inhabited the regions as south as pelopones. thats aegian macedonia, as far as i know about geography. what happened with all those ppl?"
---
See couple of paragraphs above.

"they probably are now real greeks as we are pure blooded old macedonians. you dont want to hear our myths, but you dont have problems with your own? "
---
Real Greeks and pure blooded Macedonians? Ethnicity is not defined by DNA, it is defined by what someone feels he is. Secondary to that, is what language he speaks, and thirdly the DNA factor has a scientific as well as sentimental interest(obviously it feels good to know for certain that your history goes way back). My great-great-great-great grandfather could be an Eskimo for all i know(if true it would make me fond of Eskimos) but nevertheless i feel and i am Greek.

"we never had problems with some greeks claiming macedonian origin. you have problems with our claims of the same."
---
Of course you never had any problems. All you wanted was to 'share' the identity
of the historic Macedonia from it's owners.

"you have opened pandora`s box, not us. since no one here(sane at least) wasn`t contemplating getting aegian macedonia annexed"
---
Does the sane criteria apply for your current prime minister? The one who pays tributes to maps that portray areas of Greek Macedonia as being parts of FYROM? Or is he not sane as well(like Lupso)? Crazy prime minister again? Boy, you really need to look into that, how do you manage to elect crazies everytime?

Don't believe me? Take pride of your prime minister here http://www.bulgarmak.org/gruevski_delchev.jpg

"only real threat to your country was the question about the fugitives,and their rights. and that should be a legal question, not political, don`t you think so? just ... do you have any idea how much lawyers for international trials cost these days? "
---
Ah i see. So the reason why they don't take it to court, is because it is too expensive. Please..

"question for you. what makes greece so special to be the only country without significant minorities? maybe you should ask few questions to your history teachers .... "
---
Greece is special in terms of it's minority populations because of:

- the 1920's population exchange between Turkey and Greece following the Minor Asia catastrophe. 1.500.000 Greeks were uprooted from Asia Minor to the areas within the Greek state, and 500.000 Muslims(mostly Turks) were send to Turkey, with the exception of Rhodope and Komotini prefectures(which currently houses the Muslim minority in Greece), and Instanbul's Greeks(50.000, 90% of them returned to Greece after the 1950's pogrom by Turkish radical mobs).

- After the end of world war 2, about 20.000 Albanians living in Southern Epirus, were relocated to Albania, for cooperating militarily with the Nazi forces during occupation of the country. They also make land claims, but they are unable to claim anything legally since their removal was according to international agreement and laws. UCK has currently tagged Southern Epirus(Greece) as an area of expansion(following Kosovo and FYROM in order of priority). That's why it is important for Greece that Albanians do not take over half of FYROM eventually.

- After the end of the Greek civial war, about 100.000 people(Communist Greeks, Slavs, Bulgarians) fled to countries of the former USSR, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, following the defeat of the Democratic(USSR allied) army to the Royal(US alligned) forces.

- About 30.000 Greeks were expelled from Egypt(mostly Alexandria) at the 1960's and moved to Greece, due to radical reforms made by then President Nassir.

All of the facts above, good or bad, made Greece a country with significantly low minorities and a large number of homogeneous population. Currently the only recognized minorities are the Muslim one residing in Thrace, and the smaller Slav one residing in parts of Macedonia. The Albanians, Africans, Iraqi's, Pakistani's and other foreign populations that live within Greece, are of course political or economical refugees, that after some decades will turn into minorities.

Regards,
Yorgos

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

this last post of yours is bit large, and I always feel tired when talking about this name issue, so forgive me for the long delay ...

first, i will start with some older discussion between us, the roseta stone, and its new reading. i was skeptic at the time, but i was obligated to give it a reasonable doubt, since i personally know one of the authors, dr.Tentov, who is rather good computer science expert, with background in maths and cryptography. but, it seems that their findings are complete rubbish, who got rebuffed even by our linguistic experts, but, the uneducated public chose to believe more to the sensationalistic side. well, at least the younger, educated intellectuals dismiss the new readings, as you can find nowdays even on web blogs.
http://grammata.blog.com.mk/node/172282
its a text from one of our prominent academics, and world known linguist, who is one of the most deserving for recognition of our, macedonian language worldwide. but even him, patriot by life work, was under attacks and life threats for telling the truth on the roseta stone(insider info here). so, i do acknowledge our tempering with history, when its due.

well, let me start the bashing now ;)
how the hell can u own history? you do recognize that the part of macedonia that we live into, was fully or partly in the kingdom of macedonia, while athens, sparta and large portion of greece wasnt. but greece OWNS macedonian legacy? how? by conquering macedonia(your part) in 1912-1913? :)))

in some older posts, you mentioned the antic statues in front of our government buildings. you are aware that those are found on OUR soil, arent you? why shouldnt we be proud of OUR heritage? especially if found in OUR backyard? not to mention that tons of our heritage is being illegally sold in greece(economic laws are strongest).

the best for last- your words now:
"Real Greeks and pure blooded Macedonians? Ethnicity is not defined by DNA, it is defined by what someone feels he is. Secondary to that, is what language he speaks, and thirdly the DNA factor has a scientific as well as sentimental interest(obviously it feels good to know for certain that your history goes way back). My great-great-great-great grandfather could be an Eskimo for all i know(if true it would make me fond of Eskimos) but nevertheless i feel and i am Greek. "

if you really understand this, and believe in this, we wouldn't have this discussion.
firstly, feeling - i feel macedonian.
language - macedonian (codified, internationally recognized, studied in lots of universities all over the world)
dna factor- strange to mention this one, since this one favors our side of the discussion immensely, as far as the data i have. hell, modern greek nation had major influx from sub-saharan ppl, as some studies showed. we have more antic blood then greeks have, and we agree that slavs were the most numerous ppl since 6th century, in peloponnese and north. ill try to find some links, pls, you do the same ...

this is i guess the biggest issue, human right to choose his own ethnicity. in our census, we had few penguins, eskimos, pigmies and alike. everyone is free to chose his ethnicity over here. but, we cant be macedonians, cause its already taken? greece thinks its part of its history ;) again, i told u, i wont say anything against your myths, but u cant seriously base ownership claims on myths ;))) u emerged from turkish empire, and chose to build nation based on antic greece legacy, we choose to build ours based on the name of the region we live in. both of us werent alive when those choices were made, so why do you think we can change them again without bloodshed and brute force?

and dont give that nonsense that you speak the same language... ofc you speak similar language to antic greeks, since it was CHOSEN to be like that, and thought to the ppl. most of the ppl before capitalism were illiterate, and local languages tend to die out in modern states. as i told you, dominant population in aegean macedonia, since 6th century were slavs. slavs, romans, antic greeks, celts, are non existant today. most of our culture comes from slavs, but again, the ppl which lived on these lands(antic macedonians) didnt disappeared, they got assimilated, and some of theirs traditions live even today. the same process that made all those slavs in aegean macedonia talk greek today. and based on the language, u assume legacy and continuity ... i have friends, whos families in aegean macedonia, barely speak macedonian today, they speak greek, and feel greek. same ppl over here dont know word of greek. but their grandfathers, all spoke macedonian only. ppl got arrested, shot and whatnot for speaking macedonian, and ofc nowdays ppl are afraid to admit macedonian roots, even those few who remember the language. but even today, there are lots of those ppl down there ...

btw, legal issues. you do know, that there are standing orders in won cases against greek government to register some culture organisation of macedonians, that can not be executed? and you are telling me, that ppl dont have problem to pay 75 euros per hour for lawyers to get their lands back? there are cases that are won in international courts, but try and enforce them without political will. and again, its not one or two cases ... there are 28k children only that were deported during civil war in 48-49. can u estimate how many cases there are for trial? how much money all that costs?

check some international board that i found out few days ago
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/the-balkans-most-popular-head-of-government/

most of the ppl talking there are not from macedonia and greece, as far as i can tell, and the board isnt for the name dispute, but the issue shows up ofc.

huh... one more lengthy post ... and, i dont think that much anyone beside us two reads here :) talking about discussion for the sake of good argument ;)

regards, Goran

p.s.
on some boards, i use nick G-le, on some Kefi... different nicks, from different parts of my life ... both are real life nicks ;)
i wont reread this time, i am in a hurry, so ignore some mistakes...

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

"this last post of yours is bit large, and I always feel tired when talking about this name issue, so forgive me for the long delay"
---
By all means, i completely understand. If anything, i respect the time you put in in order to reply.

"first, i will start with some older discussion between us, the roseta stone...."
---
Well i can comprehend that to the average(and uninformed) citizen living in FYROM(as in any other country), these would be great and sensational news. The reason i made a point out of it, was because it was promoted not by some wacky tabloid newspaper, or some strange group of individual citizens, but rather it was advertised by the university that this professor is working at, and even worst it was promoted by FYROM's national tourist organization on it's web page(along with PDF's of the study). So when a part of academia and government alike are placing forward such rubbish, it is obvious that something is going wrong. I do not dispute that there are sane people in your country(it would a fallacy to assume the opposite), but their voices are not heard. Instead all that is heard, is the chest thumbing of idiots that put forward such claims(which is logical up to a degree, since nonsense is almost always more sensational than sense).

"well, let me start the bashing now ;) "
---
Come on, show me what you got then

"how the hell can u own history? you do recognize that the part of macedonia that we live into, was fully or partly in the kingdom of macedonia"
---
Actually the land you live today, was 'barbarian land' at the times, and only a tiny part was under the Macedonian kingdom(after Phillip's expeditions).

",while athens, sparta and large portion of greece wasnt"
---
Yes, they were autonomous city-states, and in the meanwhile maintained loose confederations. Athens also wasn't part of Sparta. Does this means that Athenians were not Greeks or vice versa? Also, Cyprus is a sovereign country today(the free part of it), does this mean that Cypriots are not Greeks?

"but greece OWNS macedonian legacy? how? by conquering macedonia(your part) in 1912-1913? :))) "
---
There are 4 arguments in this sentence here, based on the assumptions you make.
- First one is that Greece did not exist before 1831,

- there is a 'Macedonian' nation(as you define it),

- 'Macedonian' land, was annexed/split between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia at 1912-1913.

- and lastly is that to be a 'Macedonian' is not to be 'Greek'.

1) Regarding the first, Greece may not have existed as a unified country before 1831, but the terms 'Greek','Hellenic' and their derivatives, are very well documented and explained, and have existed for a long time before that. A nation(not country), that as a group of people were scattered around different city states with their own home rule. However, they also shared the same language(either identical, or through idioms, or through dialects), religion, and a common history. This came to be the 'Greeks' in the collective memory.

2) With regards to the existence of a separate 'Macedonian' nation and people, you already know of my stance. In short(more details exist throughout my past pots), the 'Macedonian' people as you define them, are nothing more than southern Bulgarians, that gradually split from Bulgaria in a period from the 1860's to the early 20th century.

3) About the annexed 'Macedonian' land, there was no country called 'Macedonia', and the only people known as 'Macedonians' outside the Balkans were the Greek populations living in the geographical area of Macedonia. Inside the Balkans however, the 'Macedonian' issue had already begun(as previously briefly described in 2). The lands that today make up FYROM/Pirin Bulgaria/Macedonia prefecture in Greece, were under the Ottomans. Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and Bulgaria allied, drove off the Ottomans, and distributed the places to each other. A second balkan war followed, with Greece and Serbia against Bulgaria, that ended victorious for the first.

4) This is better described in 1, however it is also very well documented that the Macedonian kingdom was a Greek kingdom, and in every aspect of it's life. If the argument is 'ok about the ancient kingdom, but later on Macedonia came to mean something else and replaced the original meaning', this also doesn't stand on it's own, as the legacy, memory and name of ancient Macedon was passed to the modern day Greek populations.

"in some older posts, you mentioned the antic statues in front of our government buildings. you are aware that those are found on OUR soil, arent you? why shouldnt we be proud of OUR heritage? especially if found in OUR backyard?"
---
This is a clever argument, but its imperfection lays in what it communicates. For example, some time ago an Egyptian obelisk(not as large as the one's in Egypt) was discovered in Crete. However the fact that it is found on Greek soil, does not mean that -culturally speaking- is an artifact of Greek culture.
As another example, Greek artifacts are being constantly discovered on the western shores of Turkey, however this does not mean that historically these are part of the Turkish culture. The same goes for the artifacts discovered in your country, but a lot more so when these are displayed in front of the parliament building, proudly presenting the 'Macedonian' history. However, you've mentioned more than once that you don't believe that ancient Macedonia is related to your country's history. How come then, you consider these statues as your heritage? By all means, you can put them in a museum for people to visit and study/look at them, but promoting them as actual cultural heritage of your country is just wrong.

"firstly, feeling - i feel macedonian."
---
Huh, agreed. I on the other hand feel Russian therefore i really am. However a 'Russian' is well established on who he is and where he comes from, and the identity of a 'Russian' is not disputed. Another example, is to say that i feel Irish. Is that 'Republic of Ireland' Irish(as in Irish Irish), or 'Northern Ireland' Irish(as in essentially English). For the record, i feel Macedonian as well, but not as you mean it.

"language - macedonian (codified, internationally recognized, studied in lots of universities all over the world)"
---
Codified(not in all standards though) yes, internationally recognized not(where did you see that), studied in lots of universities yes as a Bulgarian dialect though.

"dna factor- strange to mention this one, since this one favors our side of the discussion immensely, as far as the data i have. hell, modern greek nation had major influx from sub-saharan ppl, as some studies showed."
---
Goran please, the dna data and the sub-saharan story is incredibly ridiculous(really) and has been dismissed by all top scientists dealing with these issues(Borza being a good example). For another time, these were the scientific 'pearls' 'discovered' by a group of academic researchers in your country. This theory really does compete with 'macedonian on rosetta stone' theory. Toilet paper is more valuable than this. The problem is not that there are people making up this stuff(a lot of this is going on in Greece as well by various nuts), the problem is that a significant number of people in your country believe it, sane people, everyday people, that are being fed tons of rubbish.

"we have more antic blood then greeks have,"
---
Oh ok, do you measure it by the pint?

"and we agree that slavs were the most numerous ppl since 6th century, in peloponnese and north. ill try to find some links, pls, you do the same ... "
---
If the Slavs were the most dominant people since the 6th century how come today people speak Greek and feel Greeks within Greece? I do not dispute that Greece was overrun by Slavs at that point in time, however through the passage of time, these populations were either absorbed into the local populations, migrated elsewhere, or were fought off by the Byzantines(numerous wars against Slavs and Bulgarians, probably the fiercest in Medieval times).

"this is i guess the biggest issue, human right to choose his own ethnicity. in our census, we had few penguins, eskimos, pigmies and alike. everyone is free to chose his ethnicity over here. "
---
How about declaring to be a Bulgarian then? Are you sure that somebody is really free and safe to declare he is a Bulgarian?

"but, we cant be macedonians, cause its already taken? greece thinks its part of its history ;) again, i told u, i wont say anything against your myths, but u cant seriously base ownership claims on myths ;)))"
---
Greece is lucky enough to not only be rich in myths and legends, but also in history. And history demonstrates clearly the origin and continuation of Macedonians.

"u emerged from turkish empire,and chose to build nation based on antic greece legacy,"
---
Emerged? So we're Turks now? Not sub-saharan Africans? Not Albanians, Slavs or whatever else? Again Greece doesn't have a problem with it's identity and legacy. You do.

"we choose to build ours based on the name of the region we live in."
---
You named the place you live in as 'Macedonia'. This is not the same as living in actual Macedonia and naming the country after the place's name(Bardaska).

"both of us werent alive when those choices were made, so why do you think we can change them again without bloodshed and brute force? "
---
Because we live in the 21st century, and most importantly we live in Europe that got really tired of bloodshed(especially after WW2). Otherwise things would go really bad(image if we were set in Africa for example).

"and dont give that nonsense that you speak the same language... ofc you speak similar language to antic greeks, since it was CHOSEN to be like that"
---
Ok, like teaching a cat to bark. So what language did the Greeks speak before they became a sovereign nation? Slav? How can an entire nation be taught to speak and write in a completely different language? Man, who teaches you these things?

"slavs, romans, antic greeks, celts, are non existant today."
---
How about Serbia, Croatia, FYROM, Slovenia, Russia, and a dozen other countries(Slavs), Greeks(greeks), and Celts (Irish, Scottish)?

"most of our culture comes from slavs, but again, the ppl which lived on these lands(antic macedonians) didnt disappeared, they got assimilated, and some of theirs traditions live even today."
---
Ah ok, and this is mostly happening in your country only eh?

"but their grandfathers, all spoke macedonian only. ppl got arrested, shot and whatnot for speaking macedonian,"
---
It is certain that through the turmoil of civil war, people were actually got shot or tortured for speaking Bulgarian or Slavic dialects by radical parties of the military or mobs. But 'Macedonian' it wasn't.

" and ofc nowdays ppl are afraid to admit macedonian roots, even those few who remember the language. but even today, there are lots of those ppl down there "
---
Are they really afraid? How come the 'Macedonian'(as it calls itself) political party(Rainbow) is allowed to take part in the national elections? How come the Illiden festivities are allowed to take place every year(as they just recently did)?

Are there really lots of these ppl down here? How come in each election the 'Rainbow' party only gets 2000 to 3000 votes max out of a voting population of 7.5 million? Are these 2000 to 3000 people exceptionally brave and don't care what happens to them? How come the same people get to vote again and again every 4 years then?

", but try and enforce them without political will. and again, its not one or two cases ... that ppl dont have problem to pay 75 euros per hour for lawyers to get their lands back? there are 28k children only that were deported during civil war in 48-49.can u estimate how many cases there are for trial? how much money all that costs? "
---
You are so wrong here. Once a case is decided, then it sets a precedent for all similar cases to be decided like the first case was. Therefore only ONE case needs to be put forward. Why, if it was as few as 100 people paying a group of lawyers, you could go right away. In fact go now, what are you waiting for? Political will? Gruevski seems to have plenty, sending all these 'love letters' to the E.U., NATO, US, UN.

"huh... one more lengthy post ... and, i dont think that much anyone beside us two reads here :) talking about discussion for the sake of good argument ;) "
---
I really do enjoy our discussion. If anything else, we are building a better understanding of the common problem, and in the end of the day we see that we're all human.

Regards,
Yorgos

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

going on holiday in few hours, so bit in a hurry ...

you can declare anything you want, including bulgarian. one ex prime minister, ljubco georgievski, done just that, and after being in power based on nationalistic, macedonian feeling. some would call this treason, but in the end, he can declare himself whatever he wants, and feels, and he is not bothered for it as far as i know. hell, he isnt bothered for his criminal deeds, but, it seems he really covered his ass in legal terms.
there is strong resentment towards bulgarians, but mostly cause every chance they get, they try to convince to declare as them, which is rather rude. but there is respect for the civilized ones.

i guess, its rather similar like your using fyrom ... they use bulgarian for ethnicity ... dont you think it RUDE to call ppl names they dont like for them self? we started this already, the first principle, feeling - macedonian.
and let go on from here, if u wish. as i told you before, i dont think that modern greeks are the same with ancient greeks. do you see me calling you slav, turk, arab, albanian, or whatever tribe lived around during 2000 years or more? you feel greek, fair enough for me, you should know what you feel. you also said, you feel macedonian. i dont have issue with that, per se, but isnt bit strange to feel both macedonian, and greek at the same time? i would somehow expected one of those to be dominant. and i dont see any problem, with us speaking different language. but, again, its another topic, modern nations and languages. do you think catalonians, castelans, baskees, speak same language, being spanish and all? or north italy and south?

languages ... as i said before, macedonian language was recognized as such, long before this name conflict. i showed you official documents, usa census from 1920 ... there are greek, bulgarian, and macedonian. no dialects ... when i have time, i will compile a list of universities all over that teach macedonian as a slavic group language far before 1991 ... if it was that similar to bulgarian, we wouldnt had the problem in the first place, to try to be separate from them in the late 19th century. it is different enough to be a problem to understand each other without learning it proper. again, try to surf for balkan language group... there is a nice reading on the topic, and greek is also in the same group. you will see what all of our languages have in common and separate from rest of the world. at least, language studies are really exact science, and we can find facts easy, not like history. i never claimed that ancient macedonians shared the same language, nor i believe it is so. but, ethnicity, and language, are under that part of "feelings", in which all ppl decide for them self what they will feel and name it. you used the same principle for your self,remember? ... when we continue this chat, i will add some material on languages, especially on greek, and why and how it survived, and that doesnt mean ancient greeks survived too... do you think italians are successors of roman empire, in the same manner you are of ancient greece?

on topic, mancevski. seems while he was filming dust, he dug a ton of papers from that period, american ones mostly. this few last days, he seems to compiled a collection of those, and it will be soon published, on cd or dvd ...
for example, in todays paper, there were pics from one of those, i think was NY times, from 1903 "macedonian chief delcheff betrayed by greek spy".
as you can guess, its about the death of goce delchev, and as milco him self says, the papers arent the most reliable source, but non the less, it adds weight .... i hope to get the full dvd/cd, and have fun reading old news papers ;)))

regards, goran and off to struga and ohrid ...

[–] Cosmo_Reif 16 years ago

Nationalism and patriotism are the two most evil forces that I know of in this century or in any century and cause more wars and more death and more destruction to the soul and to human life than anything else.

- Oliver Stone

___________
Look upon me! I'll show you the life of the mind!

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

I think that nationalism(as in patriotism, NOT as in radical nationalism/racism/bigotry/dogmatism and other crap like that), is a good thing to have. The nation is just an extension of the family, people having common language, customs, habits, and collective memories, therefore it is good to honour and respect these, as it's part of yourself.

Therefore if we are to get rid of the things that tie society together like patriotism(love for one's country), religion(not blind dogmatism but simple personal faith), family(people you grew up with), what are we going to be left with? Apathy(what's the benefit in this)? Anarchy(funny how total anarchy has the same effects as these of a totalitarian goverment)? Communism(good idea but failed miserably in practice and in the long term by Stalin and Mao)? A historic example of all the above, is the 'reign of terror' era in France, right after the French revolution. See how good that was...

As in most of the things, moderation, ability to tolerate, and ability to learn and evolve, are good traits to have.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Hello again Goran, i hope you had a nice and pleasant vacation.

Regarding our chat, i think we're going on a vicious circle. I or you make a point, back it up, and there's only a loose reply if any, and the same thing goes on. I reckon it would be easier and much more beneficial if we were to concentrate on a single sub-topic, and then build on from there, one step at a time.

A good candidate i reckon, would be to start from simple stuff, like the statues and other various antiquities showcased outside your country's parliament building. You've mentioned that these were found within the country's soil, and therefore you have every right to showcase your heritage. I've counter argued that although these were found on your soil, it does not mean that they are representative of your culture/history, so that these are to be displayed outside goverment buildings as representatives of your country(i.e. like an Egyptian obelisk found in Crete does not mean that it is a product of Greek culture).

What intrigues me the most though, is that you've mentioned you do not believe you have anything to do with ancient Macedonians. However, on the other hand you maintain that these statues are part of your heritage/culture/history(as explained above). How does the one stick with the other?

I hope you agree with the choice of sub-topic, otherwise feel free to suggest otherwise.

We'll be in touch,
Yorgos

[–] kefi-1 16 years ago

tnx, i had great time ...

the idea about simple topics is great, we should have easier time to find common ground i guess... i was to lazy to try it before, but i had the same idea ;> or, simply, i didnt thought its worth it ;>

heritage ... well, my personal opinion is that we should have at least some knowledge how our civilization evolved. thats why we dig prehistoric ppl and tools, thats why we study ancient ruins ... true, i do believe that we have LITTLE incommon with ancient macedonians. they had kingdom, they believed in many gods, they had diff etics ... while i dont believe they were greeks in the sense you(modern greeks) use it, i certainly find them belonging in helenic culture, i guess similar like modern macedonians are belonging in slavic culture, with serbs, bulgarians, croats etc. i am mostly guessing here, since i dont have years in studying their habits and language, but so far, thats the info i got from my history books from school, my friends historians, and common logic.

every culture, every man living on this lands, have somehow enriched the world around him. some more, some less, but i find hard to believe that some ppl vanished in thin air. i cant determine what have survived from what era with 100% certainty,but there are traditions they go long way back, before christianity, and some are slavic tribal, some are definitely looking like taken from ancient hellens(macedonians). there are some influences from byzantium, from otoman empire and so on. nothing on this world exists separated from all other.

since now days, our biggest medium issues are about nato/eu integration, which in turn has put the spotlight on the name issue with greece, and the identity issue with bulgaria(sort of similar problem). its kind of easy to understand then, why some parts of history that are showing us in the prefered light are gaining mass popularity, why texts are read in certain ways, or even outright fabricated ...

the statues are just a simbol, a claim of heritage, i guess ... i have never made any significant notion of them, since, there were always some artifacts like that near the center of skopje, outside the museums. grave stones, tombs, statues etc, just lying around, from better times... they are just part of our history, nothing else ... latin, greek, were the world languages at the time, as english is today in our culture. they were often the official language of the state and the church ... there wasnt a sharp cut in the history when they suddenly disappeared ... for example, near my house, there is a small church, which isnt used rly, as newer and bigger churches are build near by ... its small, like 3-4-5 metars wide and long, and its old, from 13 century or so ... but, funny thing is, that as my friend, historian told me, sacred places were often conserved ... meaning, the some of the stones used in that little church, are unmistakenably ancient roman or helenic by origin, even if the later date church is slavic,13 century. i can see the sun of vergina some of the original stones, for example. often, when some sacred object was destroyed in earthquake or flame, it was rebuild with the same stones. religions changed, but places and ppl were often same or similar.

so, all those ppl that lived here, before me, on the same place, are my heritage, from which i have evolved as a person. i rly dont understand how someone can claim that he can OWN some of that... i certainly dont own any of it, i just SHARE it with ppl living nearby

does this answer your question? there are no sharp cuts in life, like there are in politics. even written history is subject to daily politics, as you can see it for yourself. do you think ancient historians were free from similar influences? but, if you use it for gaining knowledge, and not trying to claim rights based on history, i see no problem with it.

sry for the delay, bit busy picking up from holidays :)
hope to read from you soon,
G-le

[–] balkan_bloke7 16 years ago

I am a Serb.

What the *beep* is up with the Greeks coming onto this forum to try and prove that "Macedonia" is Greece? Seriously guys.....everyone already knows that ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonias were part of the Greece. Why do you constantly need to sink to the level of "Fyromians" and compete in the Great Internet Forum battle of Macedonia. There are less then 1.5 million people out of a world population of 6 billion who believe what the Fyromians think (The 1.5 million being themselves). Everyone knows that Greece has the greatest ancient history of any nation on this planet, you dont need to prove yourselves to anyone. Todays"Fyromians" are a mixture of ethnic groups such as Serbs/Bulgars/Vlachs (Aromanians)and other Slav tribes..........they are no way related to the ancient Macos of Aleksandars time.

However....Aleksander was alive 3000 years ago, and since then the area of Macedonia has seen a great deal of change. No one can stake claim over all of Macedonia because Macedonia stretches from Greece/Bulgaria in the East to areas of present day Albania and Serbia in the west. Therefore no one can stake claim to the name of "Makedonia" either.......

Greeks need to recognise that they lost areas of "Macedonia" to the Slavs, and that their own "Macedonia" was once a multi cultural area of Greeks,Bulgars and Jews. No one is denying that Aleksander and the ancients of Macedon were Greek, but the land of Macedonia is not anymore.

As for the naming issue..........both parties are being stupid not searching for a compromise. "Fyromians" have no right to call it "Makedonia" (Since its only 40 % of actual Macedonia) whilst the Greeks have no right to claim "Makedonia" as just theirs. The best names i can think of are :

*Republic of Norhtern Macedonia
*Republic of Slav Macedonia
*Republic of Vadarska Makedonia.

PS. I only watched the movie for the hot Slav chicks :)

[–] balkan_bloke7 16 years ago

btw.....Alot of "Fyromians" dont actually beleive theyre decendants of Aleksandars Macedonians. Ive met plenty (Mostly those who lived through Titos Yugoslavia). Its funny, because the majority of "Fyromians" who lived in Titos Macedonia whilst he was alive were some of the biggest "Yugoslavs" in Yugoslavia and among the greatest supporters of a united Yugoslav state. It seems that the only ones who tried to steal Greeces history were the ones who lived in the diaspora like Australia, Canada etc.... However when the wars began, the people needed to find a new identity for themselves, and nationalistm rose its ugly head.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Hi there friend, just a couple of notes regarding both of your posts.

First, on the issue of Alexander and how Greek or not Macedonia(modern or ancient) is. I understand what you mean, it only makes it worst if Greeks are set to prove that they're not elephants, as it only gives value to the arguments that try to prove the opposite. However my purpose here was to get in touch with the Slavomacedonian side of people, and try to get them to understand why Greeks object the way they do, plus it was a good opportunity for me to see what their reasons/thinking are for objecting.

Secondly, and since you've mentioned the wars, Serbia has been tested very hard, and at the end of the day got a *beep* bargain, so i feel you(as possibly as i can) when you speak about identities and ugly nationalistic heads(which is what currently happens in FYROM). Among many things, if war(past or future) is something, it is lack of communication.

Oh and personally, the best name for me would be Slavomacedonia, but it's not as easy as that, as the Albanians in FYROM refuse to live in a country being called Slavomacedonia or Slavoanything, so things are complex.

[–] maxpogues 14 years ago

Ok.. ti nemaš veze sa Srbinom.
A svi zajedno brbljate gluposti.
Kada bi samo shvatili da ste svi jedni te isti bilo bi lakše, ali to teško ide..
Cak i da možete da se podelite na "Slavene" i "Grke", opet ništa od toga pošto i slaveni i grci pripadaju Indoevropskim narodima i sa istog mesta dolaze i kao što vidimo još uvek na istoj gomili žive..

[–] mercurythree 16 years ago

hey there!
be a good bloke and climb a tree.

[–] lazyvlad 15 years ago

Hey balkan_bloke7, I liked your post, it's very informative, I just don't get the need to refer to a group of people by a name that clearly isn't their name, just because of the simple fact that they don't want to be called that way, I mean who the heck are you coming here and calling Macedonians "Fyromians" what the *beep* does that mean anyway??? So if the state in which one people lives is called some way then the people are called that way too? You dont see many USAmians walking around do you? You don't see many GreatBritanians walking around too, or you see ? maybe you see dead people aswell, i guess you've got more senses then the average person has? or is it a case of LESS senses, cause you clearly strike me as a nobrainer person which to be honest isn't that much surprising considering your heritage and your nationality. As fas as I know Serbs are the regular guilty blokes on the Balkan, hell you've been accused of every war that was led on this piece of Earth, you have even been accused of eating babies, the media said that, then it must be true. I guess in your Serbian mind the version of the truth is a bit different then what it's globally known, if so maybe the Greek-Macedonian conflict is a bit different aswell. I'm not saying it is different, just as I'm not saying that Serbs are actually nice human beeings that dont eat babies, cause we both know the truth.They eat em, and use ketchup to spice the redness of their blood.

[–] yotsi 16 years ago

Hey Goran, how's it going? Look, i know it's been a while since i got in touch with you, however i've been very engaged during the last few weeks(for good reasons, you know, women, parties, journeys that kind of thing).

Anyway i reckon i owed you a reply to your last message, since i believe we've reached a good level of mutual respect during our conversations, and i should at least have the courtesy to take the time and reply.

One last thing, i hope everything will eventually turn for the best, whatever is best for our 2 countries, people living next to each other shouldn't be enemies but friends if possible. It's a hard issue to resolve, but we can hope that through mutual understanding and respect, we can reach a mutual compromise, with us not feeling offended, and you being satisfied and have the chance to live a better life by entering EU. Anyway, i like to think of us as an example, as a sign of hope for the things to come.

Take care of yourself Goran, and who knows, we may be in touch some time again. See you when i see you.

Yorgos from Thessaloniki

[–] mercurythree 16 years ago

Hey there Yorgos its me again!
"Been away" for the summer and now i'm back for some fresh apples.
Lets pretend that u wake up one day and know nothing.Then the doorbell rings.U open and u see me, and ask "who are u?"; i reply "i'm Petar, coming from Macedonia...and u r?"; "i'm Yorgos, i'm...(thinks for a second then yells)mum where are we?"; ure mum replies "Greece!"; u say "ah right,i'm greek" ure mum yelling from the kitchen "who is it?"; "i guy named Petar from Macedonia, should i let him in?"; u're mum joins the scene "ah, Macedonia... that's not right...u mean Skopje*..do u have a visa?" asks me. "why would he need a visa?" u ask."dunno..it's the policy.."; u ask "whats not right with him being Macedonian?"; u're mum looks u in the eye "don't u watch TV?...what do they teach u in school?"; then u go read ure books, watch some TV(while i wait at the door)come back and say "yeah, that's definitely not right u cant be Macedonian cause i've just read some stuff and saw it on the news..there are people in Greece who feel Macedonian...u know,that cant be right..ive read the books...sorry cant let u in..."; ure mum "that's my son"- gently patting u.
Now lets stop pretending. It doesn't work that way. It takes years of watching TV and listening to ure parents, ure teachers, talking to ure friends with a cup of coffee and a cigarette, building it up! Otherwise if u grew up in better circumstances u would have become a lovely human being,i'm sure. Say if u were born in Denmark. It takes talent, and luck i guess, not to turn into a nazi-hippie such as ure self, on these grounds,under this sky. Stop hiding behind "let's be good neighbours bla bla.." bs. Its not working dude! Who are u kidding?! Goran? I know people like u, there are plenty here. U disgust me! I can understand one's goverment to have "bad" politics simply because its politics. But u people...dogs! (u know the ones trained to bark and foam to "protect", not the sweet ones)

NO RESPECT
Petar

* this is actually a true story for whoever cares. some years ago i had to stay in a friends hostel in Solun. I was announced. When i checked in "hi, i'm Petar" the man "ne,ne,ne,ne!" (which in greek is "yes" but in macedonian is a "no") i froze tryin to figure out what i did wrong...before i realized he asked "from Skopje,right?" i replied "no, i'm from Strumica".. being confused atm i didnt realized he was refferring to my homeland, not my city.