MovieChat Forums > Tekkon kinkurîto (2006) Discussion > Are Black and White...

Are Black and White...

posted 17 years ago by sells
18 replies | jump to latest

...suffering from mental disorders and disabilities? And if so, then what kinds?

(If you want to skip my walls of text, just go to the last paragraph - the third one - to answer quickly.)

Well it's obvious that White is; both the manga and the film make it clear that he's mentally slow, but I can't make up my mind on whether he is moderately/severely mentally retarded or just autistic. He seems to share symptoms of both disorders as his actions throughout the movie deomonstrate that - (he can only count up to ten, can't dress himself, acts like a three-year old when he's actually eleven, etc.) But then these same actions often make the symptoms of the two disorders clash with each other. For example, White can't dress himself (a disability usually related to autism,) but he's perfectly capable of talking and socializing with strangers (an ability that contrasts those who have autism; they often find socializing very difficult.)

Now for Black, I always thought that he was just an emotionally distraught kid and that whole scenario with him going crazy and meeting the minotaur was there to symbolize himself battling his own inner sins, conflicts and desires which were visually represented as the minotaur - his "personal" demon. That that whole situation was just there for symbolism. But until a another member on these forums created a topic titled "the Minotaur," he/she posted a theory that Black could possibly be suffering from some sort of multiple personality disorder, with Black representing the ID or his "good" personality, and the Minotaur representing his conscious or his "bad" personality. So, I watched the movie again and have to look further into it, it's become clear to me that he's mentally unstable and definitely suffering from some sort of mental disorder, (most likely some sort of multiple personality disorder,) but I would like to know if anyone else has any other theories that Black could possibly be suffering from something else...

So... my conclusion is this - Is White suffering from mental redardation or autism? Or maybe he's suffereing from something completely different? And is Black too, suffering from a mental disorder - possibily multiple personality disorder? I know I'm taking this too seriously, but I just love questioning movies with tons of surreal imagery and symobolism!

If someone can answer my questions, then thank you very much!

[–] Xenogearj 17 years ago

I believe I have scaled a wall greater than that of China's, and for that I am proud. J/k...

I am not too familiar with autism or any kind of mental retardation, so I can't say much. At one point in the movie, White actaully said that he and Black were missing "screws", but if I am not mistaken, he was talking about their hearts as opposed to any mental relation (Note: I derive this line from the english audio from the dvd). So maybe it's just the way choose to be lol.

Now, White's case could be that of a near-complete denial of reality. What I mean by this is that White lives constantly in his own little world, though he does not shut out the people closest to him (Black, the old bum, the two cops, and Choco). It goes without saying that White means as much to Black as Black does to White.

The following assumes that Tekkokinkreet is real, and that I am crazy:

But sells, do not rule out the fact that these two characters are orphans. That is a key element to their respective characteristics. Who knows what these two kids went through before they were presented to us, the audience, in Tekkonkinkreet? One must bear in mind that Black and White were not born that day the Yakuza came to town. Now, I could go on and on about the endless abandonment scenarios (or what have you) and later repercussions on Black and White's respective personalities.

Here's another thing, heredity. Whoa.

I feel I am "cheating" with the orphan card I just finished playing, it feels too much like an "end all" kinda thing (which I really hate).

I think this entire matter should be brought to the American dude who directed this. I might just e-mail him...

Hope that helps. Anyone else wanna join the fun?!

[–] sells 17 years ago

Lol, hey! Your the same one who wrote that Minotaur topic!

Anyways - about this whole disability thing, I still think White is mentally slow. The way his dialogue is written in the manga,(some of his words are spelled out incorrectly, and are often incorrectly pronounced and slurred,)and they that way he holds his crayons when he's drawing (can't really find the words to describe it, but he holds them like a toddler does; just watch the film again to know what I'm talking about) are few more indicators which help state he's slow - well, imo, at least.

Hmmm... yea, I got the same idea's about White's "screw statment," too. I never thoought it was supposed to symobolize their supposed mental disabilities, but their hearts instead, as you've already stated.

Thanks for stating the whole orphan thing, too. I'm suspecting that they went through absolute hell in the earlier years in of their lives. Maybe their pasts were so terrible, that it reflected their sanity later - especially Blacks? I did some research on multiple personality disorders and discovered that they are sometimes triggered by truamatic events that can truamatize the induvidual to such an extent that they have to create a seperate personality to avoid them (the Minotaur,) and/or they'll occasionally have "blackouts" where they won't remember or what they were previously doing hours ago in attempt to forget them (this is evident when Black "returns" back to earth from his conflict with the Minotaur; he's suddenly awakens at the abandoned automobile home instead of the Kiddy Kastle with the dead assassins.)

Speaking of orphans...if they ARE orphans, then why the heck aren't they in an orphanage anyway, lol!? They'd certainly be safe from the all of the aliens and Yakuza! Don't take that too seriously though, I'm just stating that out loud beacause its always bugged me, lol...if they DID stay at an orphanage, we probably wouldn't have a decent story anyway, lol.

I don't quite know what you trying to say with your heredity statement though. Could explain further on that?

And I hope I didn't come off as defensive... If I do, then so sorry!

[–] Xenogearj 16 years ago

I wish I could post while looking at our other posters' posts, but w/e...

Also, sells, lol, I looked up the definition of orphan online and it screams "Ex: Tekkonkinkreet's Black and White" (a site with "dictionary" in the middle b/w "www" and ".com"...)

White:

Now, White's is indeed mentally slow, but he is a perfectly functioning human. Now, in my Psychology of Adoption class learned alot about pre-placement issues and effects on the psycopathology and behavior of the adoptee, but that's neither here nor there (lmao). White never found permanency, aside from his "family" (old bum, Black, two cops) and home (car under bridge), neither of which are ideal for the mental and emotional growth of any child. So, White's mental and emotional growth could be expected to remain as that of a 7 year-old's or move ever so slowly; most likely, ultimately to the mind of a 13 year-old.

So, taking that into consideration, in my opinion, White may have suffered even greater than Black, to the point where he can no longer function, according to social norms, "properly" or "appropriately", as the average 11 year old (pulling alot of stuff out the wazoo btw...). His "self" was definitely molded by his environment, and most likely his life before our Tekkonkinkreet. He relates to Black because he is of a similar situation, at least when related to their current state as orphans surviving in a crap-hole of a place. It is VERY hard for children to form any kind of bond with people who have been orphaned early in life (some guys who wrote some psych book, p???).

I don't think Treasure Town is the kinda place that has or runs any kind of orphanage... Even so, Black does not seem like the kinda guy that would enter one willingly or by force, and White naturally follows suit.

Sorry about my vagueositaciousness pertaining heredity. What I meant was behavioral and pychological problems that are inherint in parents are very likely to be shared genetically by their offspring.

Black:
Pssssssssst, (Minotaur post).

And no, I did not find your response as defensive, so don't worry!

"The wazoo is a great and vast place with many wonders."
- Xenogearj

[–] Drushki 17 years ago

Kid with a bachelor's in psych who thinks he knows everything to the rescue!

If the movie were real life, I don't see anything implying that White is mentally retarded or autistic in the normal sense. Clearly he's behind the average 10-11 year old, but he grew up in the streets and never went to school, so even if the typical IQ test would rate him pretty low (I'd expect) those things pretty much assume you went to school, so wouldn't be a fair assessment.

Black I'm less sure about, but I think he no more has multiple personality disorder than anyone else; everyone acts like a different person when under extreme stress. He was relatively normal (for an orphan who can jump over buildings) before White left him, and after losing his only friend and family he had nothing left but his bloodlust, or desire to dominate. From a Freudian perspective, his violent outbursts were his id; his love and protection of White his superego (kinda like his conscience). Losing White threw it out of balance, he had nothing to protect or love, all he had left was his primal desire to fight, etc. Basically, I think "becoming" the id/minotaur was his way of setting that as his only priority to cope with the loss. An analogy would be a student deciding whether to study (superego) or relax, watch TV and drink (id). If said student gets kicked out of school, he'll be depressed, and just might decide school doesn't matter, life is about having fun. Same thing, just less dramatic.

Oh right, about him watching himself act or having blackouts... I'm too lazy to go find proof, but I know I've read about it happening to soldiers at war and such. It can happen to anyone, and as long as it doesn't happen all the time it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[–] Xenogearj 16 years ago

Nice. Totally agree with your idea on White, and Black's situation was explained good too! (even though the same can be said about Black, who seems to pass White when it comes to any form of smarts, which then, could be explained by individual past experiences)

Addendum (yep, addendum):

I'm not sure, and too lazy like Drushki to look up, but I don't think Black has a multiple personality disorder. I think it would be impossible for the subject, Black, to acknowledge the existence of his other personality... and therefore put him, the Minotaur, shut away, so to speak. Especially considering he is getting no help whatsoever from any source (ie therapy and drugs). Seems to go more along the lines of the superego's defeat over the id (thanks Drushki). I get all my information from the wazoo, and some other credible sources.......... yep.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Xenogearj 16 years ago

Lol, sorry for the mulitple postage.

Wow. I just finished reading a review I cared to read (lol) on the TK page and vitalogst imo pinned the nail on the donkey when he mentioned White's educational and emotional growth. He should post here. And someone get the anime director over her dang it! I'd do it but I am, um, too shy...

[–] bertjesabbe882 16 years ago

it doenst mather if white is a autistic child or black has multiple personality's
its the meaning behind the two black and white yin and yang
white: inoccent, childish, being in a fantasyworld
black:realistic, violent

its all near the end when white is telling about that they both lost there screws and that white has them all, and white freaking out because of the minotaur pulling black and the world more in darkness its bacause they can't live without eachother because they balance together just like yin and yang

its strange i never seen anybody mension this

come and have a go if you think youre hard enough

[–] willden21 16 years ago

bert hit hte nail on the head. Ying and Yang people!! There is no light without dark, no good without evil, there has to be that balance. Wit and Blakc was the balance of the city. The RAT AND kIMORA WERE THE BALANCE OF THE YAKUZA, until they both gave into greed and then the alien, the snake arrived, the outsie force outside of good and evil, he came to disrupt the balance. Just like the 2 cops, they balanced each other. The point of the film is that we must balance within ourselves and within the outside world that thin and fine line between the light and the dark. You can not be to Naive or too hateful, there is a thin line that, Ying/Yang, must be balanced, very common theology in Eastern philosophy.

This film expertly and beautifuly portrays the importance of Ying/Yang in everyday life through this vibrant, beautiful, and powerful film. even it itself has a balance between classic anime entertainment and arthouse modern existential anime.

What an amazing film,and what a powerful message, one we as westerners need to apply more to our daily lives.

We need not worry about the character's mental aptitudes, the fact is that they are the living breathing perfet representation of Ying and Yang, all the psych majors trying to look into the film for westernized simplicity are trying too hard. Sorry, but the truth is this is a beautiful film, a perfect work of art and a wonderous coming together of two opposites, Michael Arias and the Japanese creators their Ying/Yang relationship helped to make this movie what it is, and those coming from a straight western or eastern mindset will find themselves both perplexed.

Find that line people, the balance of opposites, that is what we are constantly doing in life, and this film is a living breathing example of that.

[–] thenewzero-1 16 years ago

What I really liked about TK is the fact that this is an unanswered question and you're forced to draw your own conclusions. Arias has talked about how he's read the manga over and over and over and taken different and new things from each reading which leads me to believe he himself wouldn't have the answer. It reminds me of the comic book THE MAXX, about a homeless loser who thinks he's a superhero and the social worker whos the true hero saving him in the real world- Or is he/or is she? On "The Adventures of Pete and Pete" was Arty, the strongest man in the world, REALLY a super hero or a local mentally challenged dude that hung out with the neighborhood kids? Anyone ever play the RPG Changeling: The Dreaming? The whole premise was based around kids playing make believe except the make believe was real to those who accepted that reality. Tekkon Kinkreet is very much this. Arias has also said that the manga is in essence about trying to hang onto the childlike innocence both boys(esp white of course) exhibit as we grow older and the inherent futility in that pursuit, so in the nature of trying to retain my childishness i say that both boys were completely sane (or as sane as the world around them) and they really could fly and really were fighting aliens and the minotaur was literally real. Of course to us, the viewer/reader these things are metaphors for neat stuff like inner psychological conflict and the struggle to adapt to an ever changing world/reality, but Blacks interaction with the minotaur or snake or the martians was literal to someone in the story like Kimura. But hey, thats just the reality i choose to subscribe to. This is a really great thread guys.

[–] Doctor_Fu_Manchu 16 years ago

I think both are somewhat of feral children. They were abandoned by there parents and lack the brain development you get from being loved.

"Be it a rock or a grain of sand, in water they sink as the same." Lee Woo-jin (Oldboy)

[–] pandorainjapan 16 years ago

I see this a little differently...

Japanese folklore has always attracted me with it's limitlessness! Creatures don't strictly have to be man or god, but come in a whole spectrum of manifestations. The boy can be a fox and be in a human shape and the Japanese have no qualms about the nitty gritty of the magic behind it.

Watching Tekkon Kinkreet I simply assumed the two boys were spirits in the Japanese sense. Finding arguments about the nature of their mental states took me by surprise. I'd assume they're human boys, made of flesh and growing older every year, but with a touch of the supernatural. The existence of a second pair of these creatures, Dawn and Dusk from the city next door, makes me think that these street urchin spirits are a common phenomenon in those parts. I'd place them somewhere between representing the beating heart of the city and the soot sprites of Miyazaki lore. As with the other pair, they represent a certain duality, and are halves of a principal. What some might interpret as mental illness, I see as the embodiment of the character's own element. White being happiness, love, and joy, his personality is flighty, happy go lucky and care free. While I still assume he's human, this is where his supernatural qualities come through. He represents an extreme, and anyone happy to this degree might find themselves a little out of touch with reality too. And Black must struggle to balance his own element rather than fall victim to it. Accurately, to consume is darkness' nature, I think you'll agree. One may seem like autism and the other like multiple personality disorder, but I'd argue that their very ailments are relative to their elements.

So rather than diagnose plights I see Black and White as perfectly healthy! They are simply ying and yang in human form.

Awesome, awesome movie:)

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] schooly85 9 years ago

And I am in total agreement with you :)

I think the Japanese call it 'Onmyōdō'.

[–] shaggy_kuja 15 years ago

Autistic people tend to possesses artistic abilities. Severely autistic people are unaware of their surroundings and break out into tantrums of screaming. The scene where White was drawing the minotaur and yelling "Black! White!" leads me to think he is autistic.
I believe Black's scene with his minoraur was more imagery than psychosis. If Black is supposed to have IMMEDIATELY regained his original sense of reality by thinking about White that would make this psychologically inaccurate. Of course, even Vertigo was off at times.

[–] dsgblife_u_know 15 years ago

Autism cover a wide range of different things and center. Not everyone that has autism is quiet nor or they all artistic (they usual excel at a certain field they are interested in drawing, math, memorizing cars, cities etc.). Also very severe autism is mental retardation when person cannot function at all. If white suffered from autism he would be diagnose with asperger syndrome.

Those who suffer from asperger syndrome doesn't have a problem talking they have a problem of boring the person they are talking to about things the listener doesn't care about. Like white interest in going to the beach the always talking about dying in the dark etc. White also does ritualistic activities like, "calling down to earth." Only counting to ten; he probably can count higher. Just as White probably can dress himself, but he chooses not to because it is a ritual for someone else to do it for him.

Beyond that White nature is also a symbolism of the movies only innocents.

[–] Xenogearj 13 years ago

Feels good to be back...

Yes, I agree with the Ying/Yang commentary. I too am familiar with the concept. Aside from my major on psychology, I also minored in religion :)

One can choose to interpret the scenario any way they like, but in the end a chair is a chair, the sky the sky, etc. Or is it? JK! Realistically speaking, any of the psychology applied to these characters is perfectly within reason (I actually don't think White is autistic though). On the other hand, a more metaphorical/philosphical tone could be applied i.e. Ying/Yang and be just as reasonable.

I did acknowledge that White and Black complimented eachother, but I was not in the mindset to identify it with Ying and Yang. Usually when you side with one way of thinking you tend to ignore the other, in this case western vs eastern philosophy.

So, most interpretations are valid. Just depends on who's listening to them.

[–] 13 years ago

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