MovieChat Forums > The Bucket List (2008) Discussion > Is Roger Ebert partly responsible for th...

Is Roger Ebert partly responsible for the moronic belief that fictions


should match the actual world?

In his review of The Bucket List he says, "The Bucket List is a movie about two old codgers who are nothing like people, both suffering from cancer that is nothing like cancer, and setting off on adventures that are nothing like possible. I urgently advise hospitals: Do not make the DVD available to your patients; there may be an outbreak of bedpans thrown at TV screens."

How can he have gotten this far without understanding the idea of fiction? Fictions are not flawed if they do not match the actual world. Not matching the actual world is essential to being fiction in the first place.

It's a pet peeve of mine that people complain about this, and it seems to be getting worse--I keep noticing a greater percentage of comments to that effect, and they seem to be getting increasingly moronic, with people even complaining about "actual world discrepancies" when it comes to films like Barnyard and Bratz: Rock Angelz. With the extent to which some people revere Roger Ebert as a film reviewer, and the length of time that he's been around, I have to wonder if some of the blame rests on his shoulders.


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I can't comment on Ebert really as i don't really know if him that much but a movie like this would lift the spirits of most suffering from the disease, or so i would imagine anyway. My dad has had cancer and he loves the film.

Not all cancer is fatal, not everyone suffers in the same way and some have hardly any symptoms until its too late. That is one tfact that seems to be escaping Ebert.

I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.

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"I can't comment on Ebert really as i don't really know if him that much but a movie like this would lift the spirits of most suffering from the disease, or so i would imagine anyway. My dad has had cancer and he loves the film.

Not all cancer is fatal, not everyone suffers in the same way and some have hardly any symptoms until its too late. That is one tfact that seems to be escaping Ebert. "

You do know that he had cancer right? I doubt the facts about what it is like to have cancer are "escaping" him.

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Did you not read that i said i don't know him very well. I am Scottish and all i know about him is what i saw from archive footage in a documentary i have.

I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.

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I've noticed this phenomenon with a lot of professional critics and even from friends when they are giving me opinions on movies they've seen. People seem to teeter back and forth between "actual world discrepancies" in movies versus actual world events a lot. They suspend their disbelief for one movie and not for another. As an example, Ebert was rather forgiving in his review of Tomb Raider, saying it's just a movie and just enjoy it for the roller coaster ride that it's supposed to be, and who cares if the stunts are outrageously impossible. Well, this mentality is a direct contradiction to his review of The Bucket List, citing it's impossible for 2 cancer patients to go globetrotting. Why does he hold The Bucket List to a different standard? The most favourable reviews always come from people who were successful in suspending their disbelief. Obviously, Ebert wasn't able to do so for TBL.

I'm certain Ebert knows the difference between fiction and reality. Maybe having battled cancer himself, Ebert's perspective on TBL may be a little more personal. I can't speak for Ebert but that's what I gather from reading between the lines of his review for TBL.

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I would agree with the OP in that perhaps since Ebert had cancer, he related only his experience to this film and that he personally would not have been able to travel like they did. I worked in a hospital for 5 yrs near many people who were dying and I can tell you that some would have been able to take a trip like this that close to the end and some would not. It is a poor generalization to say that no cancer patients would be able to go globetrotting around as these two guys did.

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Well, I think Roger does have some good points. When you have suffered cancer, you aren't going to be thinking about climbing a mountain. Also, hospitals make money on giving out private rooms so Edward could've had a private room to begin with. Only reason he doesn't is to have the Meet Cute with Carter.

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He didn't get a private room because of PR reasons.

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I don't quite get the point of this movie anyway, so I might not be qualified to talk about this, but..

..it seems the message of this movie is: "When you find out your body will finally release you from this hellish prison people call Terra, and you only have to suffer this misery for less than a year (approximately), instead of preparing, creating and celebrating, you should give yourself completely to MINDLESS HEDONISM, because somehow that'll make your life 'worthwhile'".

Eh.. skydiving? Why? What do you gain from that? So you get a memory of having done something 'extreme'. What does that do in the long run? You feel somehow better about yourself and your capabilities?

I'd rather compose a song or create beautiful art than go mindlessly just defy gravity just to fall back to the ground anyway afterwards. It's like jumping up and down once, except in larger scale. It accomplishes exactly as much, too, except it wasted time you could've spent exploring or creating.

Anyway, the original poster talks in a bit pompous and strange way - by 'fictions', I assume the OP means 'movies' or 'stories'.

'Realism' in entertainment is always an interesting concept. On one hand, the viewer needs it for immersion and for being able to relate to the characters. If everyone constantly acts, speaks and behaves completley unrealistically, it takes you out of the world of the story and makes you acutely aware you're just watching a movie or trying to experience a story.

If it's 'too realistic', then it can become depressing and lose its escapistic possibilities and qualities, and fail to deliver any meaningful message.

A movie has to strike a fine balance between 'everyday realism' that keeps you invested and immersed in the story, and 'fantastical elements' you can't experience in your actual life without watching a movie or playing a game or something like that, so you still get something inspiring and exciting out of the movie.

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I don't mind time travel, space travel, teleportation, astral projection, spaceships, magical powers, and so on and so forth - but I do mind when small everyday details are shown completely unrealistically.

I don't mind a cancer patient having sex in a private plane that's flying at a high altitude, but I do mind that a rich man would be forced by 'PR' (that he doesn't care about) to in any situation whatsoever be, and have to be, amongst the 'commoners'. That simply shatters the immersion immediately.

It doesn't break my immersion if someone sees a vision of the future that then comes true, or reads someone's mind, or telekinetically throws a computer monitor at someone's face.

But when a woman falls in love with a shy Linux nerd, that's when the immersion explodes to tiny pieces and I realize I am watching another agenda-ridden concoction of the politically correct lie-worshippers. It's no longer an enjoyable experience, it's just a movie.

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Besides, I have had cancer. I had surgery in the morning, moved 200 miles in the afternoon (DH did all the work), and went to an MBA orientation the next day. When I had to go to another city for five weeks of radiation therapy, I talked a former employer into giving me a five-week job. I would work in the morning, get the RT on my lunch hour, and work all afternoon.

A friend had ovarian cancer. When she had chemo, she would be off for a couple of days due to fatigue but then come back to work until time for the next chemo. Cancer doesn't mean you just drop everything and it does give you a new perspective about what you want out of life. I ended up dropping out of the MBA program because I wasn't enjoying it. At one time I would have stayed in anyway, but I didn't want it in my life after cancer. I have done quite a few things on my "bucket list," even though I have been cancer free for 25 years.

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I have been cancer free for 25 years.
Wonderful!

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I've never respected Roger Ebert. His film reviews are too much of the "I liked/hated it" variety - always have been. I think that reviewers should comment only on craft, not content.

I think that deep down everyone knows the difference between a script writer's or director's choice and a mistake. It's unfair to criticize choices. Mistakes should be criticized and should be the only rationale for criticism.

For example, if certain dialog or an event contradicts a protagonist's incitement, then it is sometimes reasonable to interpret that contradiction as a simple mistake or oversight and grade the film appropriately, unless of course the contradiction itself is part of the incitement (such as if the protagonist denies their plight or deludes themself about it).

Suppose the protagonist severely damages their foot and limps throughout the rest of the film except in one part in which the character is shown without a limp. That's a mistake showing lack of attention to detail (in particular, continuity).

The portrayal of cancer treatment and it's complications and whether those complications can and would restrict a victim's latitude of living is a choice. A mistake would be, for example, if Carter had decided he couldn't tolerate his catheter anymore and simply pulled it out.

Interested in collaborating on a new type of film rating system? Contact me.

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It comes down to the whole willful suspension of disbelief which doesn't mean you credulously choose to believe everything you see on screen, but rather that each film comes with its own reality and you believe what happens within that reality.

So for example we can quite happily watch Alvin and the Chipmunks because the reality it's set in is a reality where cartoon chipmunks can really exist. But if suddenly Darth Vader came on screen and demolished the planet, that would shatter that reality and we'd all be complaining about it. Although I admit it would greatly improve the film.

What I guess Robert Ebert is criticising is how the reality of the Bucket List, which is meant to match that of our own real world because it's set in our own world but doesn't.

George Clooney fansite, news & gossip updated daily: www.clooneysopenhouse.com

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[deleted]

So for example we can quite happily watch Alvin and the Chipmunks because the reality it's set in is a reality where cartoon chipmunks can really exist. But if suddenly Darth Vader came on screen and demolished the planet, that would shatter that reality and we'd all be complaining about it.
There's a very serious theoretical problem with that. If, in the middle of an Alvin and the Chipmunks film, Darth Vader suddenly appears and demolishes the planet, then that's exactly what can happen in that fictional world. There's no reason to believe that it's a fictional world where Darth Vader couldn't suddenly appear. Even if a character explicitly said, "At least it's not possible for Darth Vader to appear in our world", it could turn out that the character is mistaken--the way we'd know this for sure is that Darth Vader appears in that world. You have no reason to make an assumption that any arbitrary thing can't happen in any fictional world you're experiencing.
What I guess Robert Ebert is criticising is how the reality of the Bucket List, which is meant to match that of our own real world because it's set in our own world but doesn't.
The Bucket List can't be our own real world, because The Bucket List is a fiction. For fiction to be fiction, something about it has to not match the real world. So if he's assuming it's the real world, he doesn't understand fiction.



http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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If, in the middle of an Alvin and the Chipmunks film, Darth Vader suddenly appears and demolishes the planet, then that's exactly what can happen in that fictional world.
Not really, no. Each film creates its own reality - even though the film and its reality are fictional - and as long as it plays by its own rules of that reality, all is well. In the Chipmunks films, it's a version of our own real world except cartoon chipmunks exist. It's not part of the Star Wars reality so if one reality breaks into another reality then there are complaints.

Same with the Bucket List. It's set in our own real world and therefore has to play by our own real world rules. Yes, it's fiction but it has to follow the laws of our reality because that's the fiction it's portraying.

George Clooney fansite, news & gossip updated daily: www.clooneysopenhouse.com

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Fictions all occur in fictional worlds. They have similarities to our world, sure (largely because it's almost impossible to create a fiction that doesn't--it would take a huge amount of work and a big budget), but they're fictional worlds.

But sure, you could say that in a Chipmunk film, "it's a version of our own real world" except cartoon chipmunks exist. The part in quotation marks should really be something like "it's a fictionalization with many things similar to the real world", but we can speak loosely as you did there, that's fine.

Well, speaking loosely like that, in a Chipmunk film with Darth Vader, "it's a version of our own real world" except cartoon chipmunks and Darth Vader exist.

It's simple really.

As for this: "Same with the Bucket List. It's set in our own real world and therefore has to play by our own real world rules. Yes, it's fiction but it has to follow the laws of our reality because that's the fiction it's portraying." You're saying something incoherent. Our reality is NOT a fiction. You do not understand the difference between fiction and the real world if you say that. The Bucket List, like all fictions, is set in a fictional world, by virtue of it being a fiction.



http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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I think you're getting confused over reality and fiction. I'm saying that The bucket list is set in a fictional world and that fictional world has rules that are the same as in our reality.

George Clooney fansite, news & gossip updated daily: www.clooneysopenhouse.com

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Yet I just quoted you saying it's set in the real world.

But maybe that's not what you'd say if you were to retype that.

In any event, any film's fictional world only has the same rules as any other world, fictional or the real world, insofar as it shows things that follow those same rules. Once it deviates from that, then we know that it has different rules.

The upshot of this is that it's not possible for film to violate the rules of some other world, fictional or the real world. Not matching some other film or what you believe to be the case in the real world isn't a flaw (it would only be a flaw of one's understanding of how fictions work, one's extremely idiosyncratic approach to possible worlds ontology where there is no reason for anyone else to adopt whatever arbitrary ideas, etc.).

And it's even extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a film to violate its own rules, as its own rules obtain by virtue of the film showing us whatever it shows us.



http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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In any event, any film's fictional world only has the same rules as any other world, fictional or the real world, insofar as it shows things that follow those same rules. Once it deviates from that, then we know that it has different rules.
In your opinion, maybe, but that does fly in the face of most people's expectations, not to mention film criticism.

The Bucket List is supposed to be set in the real world so if it violates the rules of the real world, it violates its own rules too, fictional though the film may be. You don't suddenly re-write the rules of a film halfway through. Not successfully, anyway.

George Clooney fansite, news & gossip updated daily: www.clooneysopenhouse.com

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It's not about my opinion, it rather has to do with the ontology of fictional worlds, the nature of fictional worlds, what's true of them by virtue of them being fictions. One either understands such things or one does not, and unfortunately a crapload of folks do not understand such things and thus have misconceptions as you noted, and that includes a number of professional film reviewers/critics.

Now you're changing your statement about The Bucket List again, which is amusing, but The Bucket List is set in a fictional world, by virtue of it being a fiction. If you, or Roger Ebert, or anyone else criticizes it so that you see it as a flawed in so far as it doesn't match particular things you believe to be true in the actual world, it simply denotes that you do not understand fiction.

Of course, you can like or dislike anything for any reason that suits you, and you can't be wrong for liking or disliking anything for any reason. But negatively criticizing films for not matching what you believe to be the case in the actual world is like negatively criticizing an ocean for not having enough dry land. If you want dry land, don't head to the ocean.


http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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Studies, this is a fictional portrayal of a very human experience. The large majority of moviegoers experience it that way. When we go see movies like this, no, we don't think that 'anything can and could happen', like we do when we go see Lara Croft and Frozen. It makes the movie experience more real, more human, for most people. If you think 'fiction is fiction' and that's it, then you are, in fact, in the small minority; probably better to just accept it. I'm afraid your pet peeve is likely to remain that way.

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It depends on the movie. I haven't seen BARNYARD but I know it's about talking animals. Therefore, it's fantasy. THE BUCKET LIST takes place in a grounded reality, so it should be judged as one.

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The Bucket List is fiction.

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