Do You believe in Lucifer? Satan? - Religulous (2008) Discussion

[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Mostly just Jews, Muslims and Satanists, who don't believe in Jesus Christ as the son of the Christian god, believe in the devil. And also some few abrahamic believers who intepret the devil as an anthropomorphization of the 'bad' desires within us, and not as an actual being.

No atheist believe in the devil because to them the devil is as much an imaginary character as any other supernatural being.

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

That's exactly what Satan wants you to believe, that he doesn't exist nor God either.

"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

That's exactly what your religion wants you to believe, that satan wants you to believe that both him and your god doesn't exist.. ;)

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] CoSMiGoNoN 9 years ago

No.

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[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

Some of you are nonbelievers in Jesus Christ, So tell me, do you believe in the Devil?

No.

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[–] Rizzyay 9 years ago

I think Satan is much less believed in than God. I know a lot of Christians who don't believe in Satan, because it poses so many philosophical problems: like if God is allmighty, then why didn't he see it coming that one of his angels would betray him? Why did he even make it possible for the angels to betray him? And why hasn't he struck Satan down for good already, if he is allmighty?

And in the book of Job, why does he gamble with Satan as if they were good buddies?

Satan makes religion so much less belivable that most intelligent christians simply leave him out. Clever choice, I think, because christianity becomes more merciful and less judgemental in their hands that way.

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

I can tell why the idea of an opposing force was intriguing to create. The dichotomy of Good vs bad, to account for the good and bad things that happens in life.

But they screwed up when they made the god so infinitely powerful that the satan would essentially be as little a threat to him as an ant; and that makes the god look immoral for allowing the opposer to exist and mess with us when he could potentially have him removed or put in his place by the snap of his figurative finger.

And then there is the whole scaretactic/fearcampaign to entice people into becoming obediant christians of course.......

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Rizzyay 9 years ago

Oh yes.. It indeed seems like somebody did not think this whole Satan-thing through. I'm surprised the whole concept of Satan passed through the big Greek neo-platonization of christianity, though. Those philosophizing Greeks were usually quite picky on this sort of illogical stuff (changing the meaning of soul, for example, into a more believable and less illogical version etc...)

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

I can understand where your coming from D.N. You forget the magnitude of satan's ego and importance to his existence. In the end that will be a good part of his downfall. This I.I.I. or "I Will" power play.....is a tyrant who will be put down and forced out at the end of day's. God promise's it is to be. And It will be. Right now Satan is going to make his ultimate power play, through the media, thru games,through politics,greed, doubt, fear and anger of self. There are many way's to brainwash. Why is it so hard to just be KIND? That's the message.....Be Kind to your fellow human being. Those that will not accept kindness..don't waste time on. God doesn't want you to go out and climb the highest mountain their is...(unless you need to) It's a simple thing....Treat others the way you want to be treated. It's not a scare tactic to be kind. Simple.

"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Right now Satan is going to make his ultimate power play, through the media, thru games,through politics,greed, doubt, fear and anger of self.

I'm sorry but I don't see this anywhere in reality. All I see are humans acting exactly like humans are predicted to act. Just imposing the name 'satan' wherever stuff takes place you don't like doesn't make for a correlation or a proof of his existence and influence.

Why is it so hard to just be KIND?

That is a psychological question that I don't think will be that hard to answer.
Why people are not kind some or most of the time. I trust even you are not always kind, and the same for me.

God doesn't want you to go out and climb the highest mountain their is

But that is exactly what he wants, if he thinks I have to convert despite not having been convinced. It is physically impossible to turn on a dime without having been convinced. Or if he thinks homosexuals needs to convert to heterosexuality when it haven't been proven possible for this to happen. A mountain in many cases not possible to climb, but that he nevertheless will punish us for not climbing.

Here is an analogy:
Imagine your god putting a gun to your head and telling you that he doesn't want to shoot you, but if you can't believe in Korea winning football world cup then he will have to. Would it be justifiable for him to shoot you if you couldn't believe that?

It's not a scare tactic to be kind. Simple.

I haven't said anything of that nature.
Christians have for millenia been scaring other people into believing their religion or else. Either in life with getting tortured or killed, or in death eternally tortured by the satan.

If it was a religion that just advocated peace and kindness I wouldn't have that many problems with it. But they decided to give it that 'other' side to it.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Hi D.N. You give much food for thought. Yes, i try to be kind in many ways. I have to bite my tongue sometimes, i get impatient, i have doubts, i do dumb things sometimes, yes i have faults and perhaps there are a few times that i was not kind.I'm not sure what he wants of a lot of us. I think the good in us is from our Lord, the bad? comes from satan. Might be why humans are always going to be wrestling with their peace of mind and well being. Important thing is.....we know what is right and wrong...it is our choice, the light or the dark???? We must strive to live in a way that reflects God's goodness. I imagine the things that many of us do in our lives is not such a big a deal to God. After all, we do live in an imperfect world, we just do the best we can. I Keep Positive....The answers may all come in time. The meaning of Life, Everything seems to have a positive and negative...will you be positive?

"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

I think the good in us is from our Lord, the bad? comes from satan.

I think, at this point in our scientific advancement and understanding of the human body, that we have slowly figured out by now that the way we behave isn't a result from an external invisible source - but rather from our human nature. From our genetic programming, influence on each other and our interactions with the universe. Behavior closely reflected in our animal cousins; the chimpz and bonobos.

You could call it a metaphor, the ranges in our behavior, and associate them to names such as a god or a satan. But literally speaking it is a pretty hopeless endeavor to try and convince anyone that the good and bad we do is in fact a result from having some invisible beings toying with us and puppeteering our behavior at every step of the way. And, honestly speaking, isn't that a very dehumanizing/downgrading way to look at humanity? To suggest that we are nothing more than simple animals that can't even feel anything by ourselves without it being a direct result of some magical being? And, as an extension of that though, would it not be rather evil to then decide an eternal fate for each of us based on this lack of freedom to decide when to feel bad or good?

will you be positive?

That largely depends on the environment in which we grow up, presently reside and will reside henceforth. Someone subjected to negativity throughout most/all of their lives aren't very likely to be positive, and no one, not even some god, could or should blame them for that.

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Well, it depends on if your right or not. No one really knows what is in anothers thoughts. I don't know what the grand plan is, it remains to be seen over time we may find out. How can we know all of the answers? Perhaps we may not want to go there after all. Perhaps we are in the universal "Loony Bin" and all of us are broken.

"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Well, it depends on if your right or not.

I think science has gotten a pretty good grasp on that answer. Ask any competent psychologist and they will tell you why we do good and bad things. Or, even better, ask a neurologist. Or even an animal behaviorist. The answer won't be "we don't know why people behave the way they do but we suspect someone/something unknown might be pulling our strings". At best you might get a quantum physicist to agree that there is a tiny amount of indeterminism taking place in our nervous system, but far from enough to make it account for behavior or feelings.

I don't know what the grand plan is

If there is a grand plan. I'm sorry to put it like this but all you've been doing so far has been claiming unproven and unsubstantiated assertions about reality. I don't want to sound mean or insulting, but that is what it is :(

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

🐎You mean?????nawww. No way! 🐥. My thoughts make as much sense as anyones i guess. You need to climb off that high horse.
"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Yeah, I figured you'd get upset.. Well there was nothing for it, though. The elephant needed to be addressed 😔

If you feel you've presented a case that was there are plenty of evidence for but that I have unjustifyingly dismissed then you are more than welcome to supply me with those evidence. At this point I am getting a little tired of what I have percieved to be constant unsubstantiated assertions..

There are no high horse here, only high standards for verifying claims, and I am sorry if you do not agree with or believe me on that note.

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Oh Don't worry, I guess that's what makes you and i different, we can agree to disagree. I just don't have any textbook answers, all i have is my thoughts. No case in point, perhaps it's too grand & magnificent to present it in a "case" style at all. Perhaps there is no way to box it all up and gift wrap it.🎁 But keep the ideas coming.

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Disagreeing is fine if we both have evidence for each our position. But you don't really have any evidence, do you? Gutfeelings aren't convincing material for the rest of us. falsifiable, predictable and replicable experiments based on theories however are.

See, that is the thing; If you don't have any answers for your beliefs then why do you believe in them when experts in many scientific fields would disagree with your assessment? You have evidence against your position, yet you uphold it. Why?

I am not merely expressing ideas. I am expressing established science that psychologists and neurologists use to successfully predict human nature, like getting to the core of why some people are lesser kind or why some people are perhaps too kind. What do you have that your god or your satan are the ones behind it? That is all I am asking.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

I don't believe in happenstance...or chance ....Everything has a plan. My evidence? I have been taught to believe in Adam and Eve, The Creation. Not the theory of evolution. The Bible is my source, that's all i got. That's my choice...to believe it or not. I am not going to sit here and make up excuses to the Scientists who believe in Darwinian nonsense. I don't buy it, that theory has holes in it . I don't know why someone is mean or someone else is kind. I would think that circumstance and upbringing would have a part to play in it. Where do we get our traits? Our parents? Our upbringing? What difference does it make? We make the choices. if you don't want to believe that we were a creation of God, that's your choice or not. And if, I said IF....
You choose to believe that it's all a random happenstance...go ahead..... Good Evening.....😇

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

I don't believe in happenstance...or chance

Neither do I.

My evidence? I have been taught to believe in Adam and Eve, The Creation.

That's not evidence.

The Bible is my source, that's all i got.

That isn't going to hold up in court, nor during any science scrutinization. "it is happening because a book tells us it does" isn't evidence, UNLESS said book provides evidence for its claims and a way for ourselves to investigate and compare it, to find out if we find the same result. And it doesn't have any of that. In fact, if you ask a person of a different religion he will provide anything from somewhat similar to wildly different answers.

What the bible mostly has is a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and an expectation that this is good enough to convince people, and I dare you to prove otherwise. Let's put the chips on the table, shall we?

... Darwinian nonsense. I don't buy it, that theory has holes in it .

How much do you actually know about evolution? How much education has you received in it? And how much have you simply been told by others? The way you describe is as 'darwinian' is troubling to me as evolution has progressed A LOT since Darwin expanded on it (he didn't discover it).

Also, I believe I've already told you this before but evolution is actually one of the scientific theories that we have the most evidence for (and please look up what a scientific theory is because I can't for some reason post more than 1 link), and we do actually use it in practice in various fields. That much accurate has it become.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.html

You make it sound as if there is this huge conspiracy going on in the scientific community where scientists of many different disciplines and fields know it is nonsense but still pass it off as truth. You don't really believe that, do you?

I would think that circumstance and upbringing would have a part to play in it.

Yes! 😃 Then why are you saying your god and your satan plays a part in it?

Where do we get our traits? Our parents? Our upbringing?

Now we are on the same page!

IF.... You choose to believe that it's all a random happenstance...go ahead

No one except the religious people who doesn't understand evolution are claiming random happenstances. It is kind of funny that way, isn't it? Most of what religious people/creationists think is nonsense about evolution is something they've completely made up by themselves.

Doesn't that sound strange to you? Even troubling?

It is not as if the facts about evolution is kept within some well hidden box undernearth the vatican and where scientists are snickering and are all "Yes, we fooled them all". The theory of evolution can be freely investigated and learned on the internet if you find a credible source for it.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

"When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the creator" Mahatma Gandhi

"The truth is that God is the force. He is the essence of life. He is pure and undefiled consciousness. He is eternal." Mahatma Gandhi

"God answers prayer in his own way, not ours." Mahatma Gandhi

"Faith is a function of the heart. It must be enforced by reason. The two are not antagonistic as some think. The more intense one's faith is, the more it whets one's reason. When faith becomes blind it dies." Mahatma Gandhi

" A man of faith does not bargain or stipulate with God." Mahatma Gandhi

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

I feel like everything I said to you in my previous post went into one ear and straight out the other.. Nothing was addressed and all I got was some unrelated quotes that made me visualize you chanting your own tune while sticking both of your fingers in your ears. "Lalala, ghandi says this god thing is good so whatever you say doesn't matter", is essentially what I read when I saw your post.

What I said in my post you might not have liked, no one likes getting criticised (same goes for me), but I don't think you recognize how frustrating it is to talk to someone and not be listened to at all. If you don't have an answer for your beliefs, fair enough, then be honest about it and tell me. That is literally the only thing I cannot criticise you for; for having faith in something you say you cannot prove in any way. That you, for instance, have faith your god exists but that you don't any proof of it. That is honest and genuine.

By the way; Ghandi was also quoted saying this: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

And also.. Given you are a woman, this might hit close to home with you:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jan/27/mohandas-gandhi-women-india

No one is perfect. Ghandi wasn't, I sure am not either. And as I am sure you would agree; neither are you. Sometimes the best we can do is just being honest with ourselves and others.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Hi D.N. Gandhi can't actually defend himself, now that he's been dead for a long time. In his country, there was so much poverty and over abundance of population. I imagine the man did what he could for them. Who are we to judge this man now? Back to religion though. I don't feel like i have done anything wrong here presenting my belief in God.

"I believe each individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no wise interferes with any other man's rights." Abe Lincoln.

" In regard to this great book (Bible) I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to men. All the good savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it." Abraham Lincoln.

I end my argument in a simplistic way. No doubletalk, no nonsense....no long boring speech and analogies. This is how it is.... (with me).I don't have time or resource to present you with a long account of my own belief in God- when you would refute it, no matter what i say...(Wouldn't you?) You prepare to do battle where none is needed. I have no desire to study evolution as i get the concept of it (basically) and i fail to understand it totally.  There's no need for me to go on...when i simply talk through my own heart. Sometimes a person can over-think and over talk things of this ilk- to the point that the message is lost on the listener So on that note....you win the argument..... Still take time to see....The evidence is all around us really look and pay attention, the answers will come to you......... I am Ending with a line from one of my favorite movies..."I have my Faith" What do you have angel?" From The Prophesy. (Say's Thomas) to the Satan....

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Who are we to judge this man now?

We would be rational people, obviously. Don't let fame and accomplishments blind you. Even people such as Richard Wagner, despite his beautiful music, wasn't a perfect person and had some terrible beliefs. George Washington had slaves, he wasn't a perfect man either. History is riddled with great men and women having flawed beliefs and ideas - why should we not judge them for it?

I don't feel like i have done anything wrong here presenting my belief in God.

Well, in your entire last post you pretty much ignored everything in my entire post before it, and instead started preaching to me - that is actually pretty rude. And, overall, you still haven't presented any evidence for your beliefs that I have asked for, outside of just mentioning the bible. You don't think there is a problem with those things? Do you think this makes for a good dialogue?

"I believe each individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no wise interferes with any other man's rights." Abe Lincoln.

"In regard to this great book (Bible) I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to men. All the good savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it." Abraham Lincoln.

And now you do it again.. Providing some loose and irrelevant quote to back up a non-existent point. What does Lincolns quote have to do with evidence of god, and why should I care what he says about it? Is he an expert? Is this an argument to authority, to pretend that just because great men have believed in god that they must inherently be correct and as a consequence that you don't need to provide evidence for yours?

I don't have time or resource to present you with a long account of my own belief in God when you would refute it, no matter what i say...(Wouldn't you?)

No, you are wrong.
I am perfectly fine with being provided evidence, as long as it is actual evidence and not anecdotal fallacies.

If you were to say that your evidence was: "I had an experience in which I felt God's presence", then how would you have me respond to that? I haven't had the experience, and I can't tell whether you actual felt god's presence or just hallucinated it. Can you duplicate it? Can you do it so that I can experience it as well?

And even more important: How can you yourself tell the difference if whether it was real or fake? How can you be certain that what you feel wasn't an upset stomach, mere circumstances, or Satan/Odin/Chtulu's pretending to be God? How do you find the certainty to reject every other possibility and deny every piece of evidence to the contrary?

You prepare to do battle where none is needed.

Unneeded In your eyes, perhaps. And 'battle' is, perhaps, exaggerating it. I am trying to understand you. Is that a battle to you?

I have no desire to study evolution as i get the concept of it (basically)

I'm sorry, but you really don't get it if you think it is nonsense.

you win the argument.

I am not trying to win an argument. I am trying to understand why you think your beliefs are true despite evidence against it. You giving up on explaining it is essentially me losing the argument.

The evidence is all around us really look and pay attention

If the evidence are that widespread then how come it is so difficult for you to present them to me? It should be a breeze with that much evidence around us.

I am Ending with a line from one of my favorite movies..."I have my Faith" What do you have angel?" From The Prophesy. (Say's Thomas) to the Satan....

What is that line supposed to accomplish? See, when I look at that line (some religious line about it being a good thing to have faith) all I see is someone in denial, refusing to acknowledge the other persons position and too stubborn to reconsider their own beliefs. Despite everything stated in this discussion you end up saying: "I don't care about anything you have to say, I have faith and I think it is good enough". That is absolute closemindedness.

Is that a true assessment of you?

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

I don't believe i need to present evidence , my Dear. It's spiritual....a feeling...a belief....Why do you insist on making it a complicated process? It is a "breeze"......, a drop of rain, a beautiful forest, a blue sky, a smile, a rainbow....it is all around and obviously simple. You are missing the point in what i have tried to convey here. It is what it is.. People are people.....End of story....

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Why do you insist on making it a complicated process?

Uhm, I don't? I've asked 1 simple question: You made a claim, what is your evidence for it. That's it, really! nothing more complicated than that.

If anything you are the one who has prolonged this discussion by not giving a simple answer and instead providing quote after quote of unrelated material...

It is a "breeze"......, a drop of rain, a beautiful forest, a blue sky, a smile, a rainbow....it is all around and obviously simple.

A drop of rain is an example of a drop of rain, same for a forest, a blue sky, a smile and a rainbow. All natural processes very well described scientifically. So where is the god part in those things? Where does the science end and the godpart begin?

You are missing the point in what i have tried to convey here.

Apparently I must be because to me you don't seem to make any sense.

All you've done is say "look at the birds and the bees" as an answer to everything godlike. And that is not going to do. No one rational will accept that as a sufficient answer to the supernatural unless you specifically point to the supernatural elements within those observations.

I'm sorry, but to anyone not indoctrinated into your beliefs your god isn't a given... A hindu will look at the world and say something entirely different. Same goes for an atheist (like me). You will need to be more specific to make sense to me... When I look at the world I see natural processes, all described by the same science that power your internet and the car you drive, and I don't see your god in the internet or in the cars on the street. You need to point me to where the supernatural begins.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

The question was...."Do you believe in Satan? I said that i do. And, If you ask me, i view your replies as nothing more than a weak rebuttle, not really giving anything substantial either. If you think the burden of proof is all on me, i have to digress. I think any person who stumbles here, will probably "Get it" from my obvious replies.  I don't think i could make myself any clearer.

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

If you ask me, i view your replies as nothing more than a weak rebuttle

I am not trying to make an argument for anything 
All I have been doing is asking for evidence and clarifying what evidence is.  I haven't said your god or your satan doesn't exist, I haven't said they don't influence us or that they aren't in the birds or the bees. I have simply asked you to show me how they are all these things because I don't see it myself as I haven't been indoctrinated into your beliefs - They are not an obviousness to me.

If you think the burden of proof is all on me

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You say you believe in Satan and that he influences humans, that god is in the rain and what not - those are claims. I ask for evidence for all of this, that is the default position. I'm sorry if you don't understand this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof
Please read up on it. A lot of religious sites will say the same if you refuse to read from a non-christian site.

think any person who stumbles here, will probably "Get it" from my obvious replies.

Well if anyone not indoctrinated into your beliefs stumbles in here, let us see if they are willing to give us their take on your clarity.

_________________
Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

I would think so.

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[–] Medinensis 9 years ago

Valor03:

I don't believe i need to present evidence , my Dear. It's spiritual....a feeling...a belief....Why do you insist on making it a complicated process? It is a "breeze"......, a drop of rain, a beautiful forest, a blue sky, a smile, a rainbow....it is all around and obviously simple. You are missing the point in what i have tried to convey here. It is what it is.. People are people.....End of story....

The question was...."Do you believe in Satan? I said that i do. And, If you ask me, i view your replies as nothing more than a weak rebuttle, not really giving anything substantial either. If you think the burden of proof is all on me, i have to digress. I think any person who stumbles here, will probably "Get it" from my obvious replies. I don't think i could make myself any clearer

Devils-Night:

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You say you believe in Satan and that he influences humans, that god is in the rain and what not - those are claims. I ask for evidence for all of this, that is the default position.

Well if anyone not indoctrinated into your beliefs stumbles in here, let us see if they are willing to give us their take on your clarity.

Valor03 . . . .

I have to admit that I'm not clear on your given reasons either. You're correct that you are not obligated to give reasons for your faith, or even defend your faith, but if one does decide to do either, clarification is often the next step.

If I had to guess, I think your reasoning is something along the lines of "everything we see around us is evidence of a creator, so that should suffice as an explanation for why I believe."

The problem, of course, is that not everyone looks around and comes to the same conclusion. I mean, if knowing that any manner of god existed was as simple as acknowledging rain, forest or sky then everyone would be a believer. Since everyone is not a believer, that explanation would appear to fall short.

Perhaps you meant to suggest that everything has a cause -- therefore that cause must be a creator?

Perhaps you meant to suggest that we live in an ordered environment such that clouds can form and rain can fall and give life to living things and this would require a creator?

Maybe you might also suggest that the complexity of life would demand a creator?

What I'm getting at is that I think your explanation requires fleshing out a bit, as per Devils-Advocate's suggestion.

Hopefully I've provided a bridge to fill the gap so that you both can take a step further in your discussion. If not, then maybe someone else can step up to the plate.

Cheers!

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[–] Devils-Night 9 years ago

Yes, I have heard a lot of the watchmaker argument and the general arguments from design fallacies from tons of people, including valor03, that have been debunked as flawed logical arguments so many times by so many people. I did think that it could be the direction she was going for.
I've also told her the 'people see things differently' counterargument, mentioning how for instance atheists and hindus will and do see something differently because we haven't been indoctrinated into her beliefs.

But you never know if that is what the religious people really mean with the 'look at the birds' remarks. Even if she was hinting at some argument from design then she didn't explain it so with a clarity and with an evidence based explanation that the both of us would 'get', as I told her we wouldn't.

I have been on friendly terms with her for some time and I have been trying to avoid explaining things to her in a way that would seem insulting or demeaning or would put us on less than friendly terms. We are different persons. But she really seem unwilling or incapable of seeing things from other people's perspective, and that does get frustrating in the long run.

EDIT: Oh yeah, also: If she doesn't wish to explain herself she is obviously allowed to just say so, and I won't go any deeper. But as long as religious people address these topics so freely I am going to question it.

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Come, lovely child! Oh come thou with me!
For many a game I will play with thee!

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Basically i believe that we don't die, spiritually we go to another vibrational reality that we cannot see or discern while living here on this plane of existence. I believe that the Earth is a School...we learn from our actions and choices while here, But I want to go and be re- united with Jesus when i pass over. It's based on faith...
and that's okay with me....There are a lot of near death experiencers over the last several years, noted by the medical profession. The researchers of these near death stories are beginning to realize that there is more to this....Elizabeth Kubler- Ross MD, Raymond Moody MD are just a drop in the bucket to this kind of NDR research. all of these different people- have described Floating above the hospital room and watching everything being done and said....they tell of a tunnel and a light and going up to that light and actually meeting with a being who was there to greet them. They describe much the same sight- as in a wonderful heaven- like place with loved ones to greet them.... Heavenly music that is totally beautiful..Crystal buildings....a utopia!This is documented and recounted by professionals in the medical field. Read Embraced by the Light by Bettie Eadie....It was one of the first of it's kind, There are others...God is real...Todd Burpo.....We don't die....etc. Open up check it out... They say it is more real than being in this life's existence. To me. the worst thing ever is to separate yourself from the Creator.

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Thanks for all of the discussion and ideas. I believe in life after death....and as for myself...i want to be with Jesus.

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[–] Valor03 9 years ago

Because it's all a part of the test. God will deal with satan at the end of day's.
It really all centers on Mankind. Which way are we gonna go? Satan has no power over us if we deny him. Satan was God's right hand being, Satan thought he wanted God's Kingdom and all in it. He rebelled against God. He forgot who's design he was. He never wanted to follow after mankind. He was given a mind, a choice and he actually was jealous of everything God Loved. What would you do with a willful stubborn and wayward or wicked child of your own? Would you strike him or her down? God is foremost merciful and God is The father. His reasons are not our reasons.
"God is Good all the time Man" Russell Wilson. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS Going to Super Bowl 2015!

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[–] chamohlamb 9 years ago

Believing in Satan is so rediculous I can barely comprehend it.

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[–] Arto 8 years ago

There is some loonies for sure in this thread.... It's funny, if a grown person believes in God, Jesus, Adam and Eve or Satan, it's mostly considered normal. If a grown person believes in Santaclaus, his considered mentally challenged. But what's the difference?

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[–] sexbunnyalex 9 years ago

No, I don't believe in god or the devil. I don't believe in the bible. Using the bible to convince me of anything would be like me using Harry Potter to convince you that magic exists.

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[–] Gabe1972 9 years ago

No.

If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. - George W. Bush

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[–] SeaSerpent 8 years ago

If Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful why does Satan exist? because in order for him to exist "god" theirs at least not the actual one who has nothing to do with religion. Yahweh is an idiot, he doesn't create angels with free will but somehow they have it and rebelled against him and he didn't see that coming being all powerful, really. Of course you think the devils telling me to type this because it actually makes sense to you because you are logical rational people worshipping Santa Claus for adults, that Lucifer you're fearing is Krampus. it's all make believe imaginary maybe you'll end up burning in the fires of Tartarus for not believing in the old Roman gods. because it's just as likely that Jesus is real that Thor is too.

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