If God exists, couldn't he prevent this from happening? - Deliver Us from Evil (2007) Discussion

[–] AshleyMH007 16 years ago

Free will is a vital part of it though. People can choose evil or choose good,as this documentary shows.

As far as Myanmar, I have no clue. I don't know why things happen the way they do. I do know that before sin entered the world, none of that happenned and because of choice, sin entered the world and it hasn't been the same since.
Good and evil can't be reconciled, your right. One has to overcome the other, hence the struggle we have today.

I think natural disasters grieve God just like it does us. If God was evil and vengeful, we'd never make it out of childhood, we'd have gotten struck down the first time we disobeyed. God I guess could have prevented alot of things, he could prevent us from saying and doing the things we do everyday, but then that would make us robots and not human.

The world we have today is not what he had intended, he says so in his word,which is why he is going to reconcile everything at some point in time.
I'm a christian and I don't know why things happen the way they do either.

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[–] bchow 16 years ago

"The world we have today is not what he had intended, he says so in his word"

Doesn't this prove that God is not omnipotent? He created something that falls short of his own expectation.

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[–] AshleyMH007 16 years ago

No he created the world to be different, but he chose to give humans free will. It was our free will that chose sin and invited darkness into the world.
Hence the need for his son,who was perfect, to save those who were not.

In my mind, I would think it would have been easier to make human choice have limits, it would have saved him and us alot of trouble. I don't pretend to understand the ideas of the Divine, which is what makes me human I guess.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] bchow 16 years ago

And God allows Satan to continue doing his evil things and cause death and destruction and suffering to millions of people's lives because...

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] george_aslf 16 years ago

LOL this is the funniest thing I heard today ))

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[–] razorwinged_dragonfly 15 years ago

Cause Satan doesn't exist, at least not strictly as we know it, it's just a terrible misinterpretation (by the church, obviously) of several much more ancient myths and symbols, such as the myth of Prometheus, in which Prometheus, seeing how mankind was too busy being naked, eating, screwing and pooping around, stole the Fire of wisdom from the gods and out of love gave it to men, so they could live up to their potentials, Zeus then got pissed and had him tied up where a crow would eat his liver every day and yadda yadda...
the myth of the garden of Eden (which is THAT, a MYTH) resembles this last one a lot, except this time it's about an A-hole snake that tempted a pretty dumb woman (nothing against women, it's just how the myth portrays them, and gives the church another reason to discriminate them) into eating a fruit whiche made both Adam and herself aware that they were naked, and had to make some clothes out of leaves ASAP (OH! and also know the difference between good and evil, which is pretty much what defferetiates us from animals)... What the church did was take an awesome metaphor about consciusness and twist it all the way around, and sell it as a fact.
If so... Satan actually seems like a pretty good guy, and God comes out as kind of a douche.
Saying there's a devil is automatically denying what makes God... well... God...
there's nothing that can exist despite of God, there's no absolute good nor absolute evil, they're just opposite poles of a same thing, and there needs to be one so the other exists...
that's something early christians actualle KNEW, but have forgotten over the years... too sad.
And why do christians always blame satan for the bad things in the world? well, it's always easier to blame something or someone else other than yourself for your screw-ups, isn't it?

-A real friend stabs you in the front-

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[–] m_e_t90 14 years ago

Maybe, but if we have no consequences such as eternal damnation, then what will stop us from doing evil things? It's a punishment that stems back to Adam and Eve. If there is no consequence then we essentially lose much of our ability to do the right thing, to the desire to do the things we want to do-even if they are wrong.

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[–] richieoconnell 10 years ago

"Maybe, but if we have no consequences such as eternal damnation, then what will stop us from doing evil things?"

So, the only reason you don't go around doing evil things is because of the threat of going to hell? Well, that kinda makes you a man or woman without morals doesn't it? Being moral means doing good things because it's right, not because of the promise of some reward, and not doing evil things because it's wrong, not because you fear punishment. I'm an atheist, and I'm not evil. There are good people and bad people among those that believe in God and those that don't, it's just human nature, nothing to do with God and the devil.

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[–] ninedayfall75 15 years ago

And who created Satan, oh that's right...you're all powerful, all knowing precious "God"...lol. If a "God" did exist, he would be nothing but a failure.

God is pretend.

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[–] onepotato2 15 years ago

Babies born retarded?
No God.
Children getting cancer?
No God.
300,000 people killed in ten hours in the Pacific Tsunami?
NO GOD!

Religion is crap at explaining these.

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[–] m_e_t90 14 years ago

No it is not. Adam and Eve ate the apple, their punishment was banishment from the garden and to be left to the fate of the world. Disease, natural disasters, death, it is all because we betrayed God's trust. Stop blaming God for not fixing everything, we lost the right to that a long time ago. Now we just have to do the best we can to live by His word so that we can once again be saved.

And this is coming from a liberal, psychology major, open minded student. I believe a lot of things in the bible (which is the word of God interpreted and recorded by man) are not recorded in their correct unbiased state. However, I do believe the bible is the closest thing we have to His direct word, and we need to heed what it says, albeit not as strict or literally as some people do.

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[–] daniel1129 13 years ago

So because Adam and Eve ate the apple, the rest of us have to pay? That seems pretty unfair; "we" didn't betray God's trust. It's like punishing someone because they have a murderer for a great great great grandfather.

It's hard to ignore the huge problems with the logic of Christianity, and it will serve you well to explore these. When people want to buy a car (a fairly small decision), they gather as MUCH information about it as possible. They kick the tires, they weigh it against other options, etc. But for some reason, when it comes to choosing a religion, upon which many people base their entire existence, people seem to be much more lax with checking how much sense it all makes.

The Bible has been translated, re-translated, edited, re-edited, re-re-edited, then re-translated. As David Cross put it, "Basically The Bible is the longest-running game of telephone in history."

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] delacroix_3 12 years ago

Please forgive my slight side-topic post but I felt compelled to respond. I'm not trying to preach here. I'm just trying to give some insight from my perspective and hopefully help people understand how life works.

So because Adam and Eve ate the apple, the rest of us have to pay? That seems pretty unfair; "we" didn't betray God's trust. It's like punishing someone because they have a murderer for a great great great grandfather.

As someone else said (sorry, I don't remember who, but it's on this thread), when sin (which is simply not obeying God's law) entered the world, so too did Lucifer/Satan (or maybe it went the other way around). This world was meant to be perfect when it was created but it didn't turn out that way. Sin has consequences. For example, think of a little boy curious about a stove burner. His father tells him not to touch it because it will burn him. But he is incredibly curious so he has this strong desire to touch it the second he thinks that his father isn't looking. As he does, of course, it burns him. Should that mean that his father doesn't exist? He was warned and he didn't listen and he felt the consequence.

God lets us make our choices and as much as we hate it in the moment, problems in life help us develop stronger character and make us more wise if we use them that way. It's unfortunate when bad things happen, obviously, but it's up to us how we deal with them. We can use them to help us understand life and be grateful for the good things/people we have or we can let them make us bitter and angry. There are solutions for every major issue in the world today. it requires us to stand up for what's right when we see evil/unjust/dangerous/twisted things happen and not just complain about them. But people (in general)just seem to choose to turn a blind eye to injustice/evil in order to continue having a comfortable life. Then they, in turn, blame God for all the evil that happens or decide there is no God.

The Bible has been translated, re-translated, edited, re-edited, re-re-edited, then re-translated. As David Cross put it, "Basically The Bible is the longest-running game of telephone in history."

That's a huge topic on its own. This is why we should only give heed to the Authorized King James Version. Research it.

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[–] dolfanatic314 11 years ago

That's a huge topic on its own. This is why we should only give heed to the Authorized King James Version. Research it.

That is a lie if you want the truth you need to read the Aramaic version

- - - -
Every FGer has perfect Grammar excluding myself

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[–] richieoconnell 10 years ago

"His father tells him not to touch it because it will burn him."

Well you see the difference here is, the father told his son the consequences of touching the stove, Eve had no idea of what the consequences of her actions would be. If God said she would be screwing her children and her children's children, and all of humanity, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have gone near it.

And saying Eve's actions screwed humanity and it wasn't God's fault evil came into the world is bull. God is meant to be omnipotent, so he chose to allow evil into the world and to remain there forever, bringing with it pain and suffering beyond imagining, because one person ate an apple.

"It's unfortunate when bad things happen, obviously, but it's up to us how we deal with them."

What about death? A child is born only to die days later, why? Did God create that child only to sacrifice it to test the parent's faith? Thousands die in a hurricane, is that another one of God's sacrifices to teach the rest of us some kind of lesson? God is meant to be omnipotent, so that means there is no arguing that he could find a bloodless way to test our faith if he wanted to, there is also no arguing that he could have forgiven the sins of the world without having to allow his son to be brutally murdered. God just loves death and suffering I guess.

And the whole free will thing? Don't get be started. A guy rapes a young woman, he has free will, the woman being raped does not, she has no say in the matter whatsoever.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] richieoconnell 10 years ago

" it is all because we betrayed God's trust. Stop blaming God for not fixing everything, we lost the right to that a long time ago."

WE betrayed God's trust? No we didn't, according to the story, Adam and Eve did, WE had nothing to do with it, and any God who would punish an entire species until the end of time because of the actions of TWO of their kind sounds pretty tyrannical to me, and it's a God I'd want nothing to do with, even if he did exist.
Do you think a murder's son should be punished for his father's sins? Of course not. And all Adam and Eve did was eat a frickin apple!

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[–] Leopoldus 10 years ago

Don't take things so strictly. Adam and Eve were not people, Genesis is more of a metaphor than anything else. They are the whole human race at its early stage. As for the apple, we are talking about the fruit of forbidden knowledge. Satan, a proud fallen angel jealous of the perfectness of human pushed it to the far limit of God's Law and seduced it, just to make them sin, because he knew the human race would then be lost to God and all for him to play with and destroy. Anyway, you are missing the whole point (a lot of us are, so often) : God DID FORGIVE US for turning our back to Him by sending his son Jesus, God made human (which takes a lot of nerve from dear old God, admit it, to come among us and live everything except sin up to the point of a horrible death on the cross), to take us all back to Him. He did not make us pay, we did that to ourselves, and yet we fail to admit our responsibility (sooooo easy to blame God for all that's wrong).
Take it this way : if a murderer was to be exiled on a place far from grace, and there paid his debt, then had no choice but staying there after that, and start a new life, and have kids, and die happy surrounded by his own, then what about the kids ? Well, they would stay here right, it's their home : who could really blame past justice (and fair one, too) for being somewhere ? They would accept it as History. Just like most of the Australians did ! Well it's the same for us : our far far far ancestors got us there. We can't blame whoever sent them, but we can consider their actions took them there. And accept it as History. But history is not to be taken like in a cafeteria, with only the bits you like. If you seriously want to take the Adam & Eve myth for a basis of an argumentation, you have to take what follows up to the point we were all saved (and again, our choice to take that salvation). It's taking the beginning (literally !) of the book only and saying to the author "Man, what the *beep* ? We don't know how it ends from the beginning ?" Pretty silly, right ?
God is not tyrannical. He's just being highly pedagogic with us. Threat without any action following at some point never proved efficient. And boy he is PATIENT because we sure are terrible learners.

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[–] delacroix_3 12 years ago

"Babies born retarded?
No God.
Children getting cancer?
No God.
300,000 people killed in ten hours in the Pacific Tsunami?
NO GOD!

Religion is crap at explaining these. "

Babies born retarded? - A lot of things that we do - food we eat/chemicals we surround ourselves with/electrical equipment and fields we live near or with - have a lot to do with babies having various development problems or being "defective". There are a lot of things we can learn from retarded kids anyway. It's not the worst thing in the world. Every life has value.

Children getting cancer? - Again - our lifestyle, including food (LOTS of GMO and preservatives, etc) and other things which are not great for us cause cancer. Most diseases we have originate with lifestyle and diet. Kids getting cancer sucks a lot but it's got nothing to do with there being a God or not.

300,000 people killed in ten hours in the Pactific Tsunami? - Well, I'm not going to say I know tons of info about this but there are a lot of theories about HAARP controlling weather and creating great storms. Just think about how many major storms there have been in the last decade or two - in proportion to the rest of time. Seems a bit weird, no? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxvxpBnV5Rc - Dr. Nick Begich: HAARP, Secret Sciences & High Tech Mind Control).

There is a lot of information out there for anyone who is willing to learn. Being mad at God doesn't help anyone. Being self-righteous about how "evil" or "mean" God is won't get you anywhere. If you don't want to believe, that's your decision. That doesn't mean these things you choose to believe about him are true. God is love and, like other people have said, Satan runs the world. Satan is an incredibly intelligent liar. He has had thousands of years to work at lying and making us believe MANY things which aren't true and also thousands of years to figure out how to kill as many of us as possible. Choose Love. Choose God.

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[–] richieoconnell 10 years ago

"300,000 people killed in ten hours in the Pactific Tsunami? - Well, I'm not going to say I know tons of info about this but there are a lot of theories about HAARP controlling weather and creating great storms"

Oh, give me a break, what about all the natural disaster throughout history? What about the Black Death, what about Pompeii?

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[–] azzer 13 years ago

How can anyone believe in God, when there is so much injustice in the world....

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[–] dashab 13 years ago

The problem, though, is that even in his fall, Lucifer still serves God. He is God's prison warden, as it were. Lucifer can't do anything God doesn't allow.

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[–] cargolot 12 years ago

blah blah hahaha

yes, SATAN and GOD do exist, they're the nicknames of the vietnamesse unlegal inmigrant prostitutes suc*ing my sphericals and stick right now.

no, seriously; how can still be mature people out there not seeing it all was men's invention? it's just the pointless self-amazed fantastic ancient literature that bringed loads of pain, hate and confusion to our world.

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[–] cookiela2001 11 years ago

<< no, seriously; how can still be mature people out there not seeing it all was men's invention? >>

It's a little mystifying when adults take the fairytale seriously.

It's mostly about the fear of dying. They want to believe there's a way around it.
.

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[–] cargolot 11 years ago

Sure ! :)

Spain

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[–] LLola 15 years ago

So Ashley - god is a "he"? not a "she"?

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[–] whatever94401 14 years ago

How did everyone get so brainwashed? Someone tells you God created everything in 7 days and Adam and Eve ate an apple, so the world has sin in it. You really believe all of that. Did you not do well in school? Is it lower IQ's? People don't understand myths, symbolism? Why take everything literally? I just don't get it. I understand reading the bible for spiritual guidance but assuming every word is fact, it seems to lack common sense, but so many people do it.

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[–] ranma_muyo 16 years ago

Goddamn the Bible sure does have a lot of plot holes.

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[–] public_enemy-d_o_a 16 years ago

remembering these, might help a bit:
in the beginning there was only good.
God created man as his best and compeletest creature who "can" be superior to angels.and he said all angels must obey this.
but
satan rebelled against god,saying he was better than man and he can prove it.
now, since man's best gift was free will and choice, god allowed satan to try his best, while showing the right way to man by his prophets.
it all ends in dooms day
and it is up to us all to make the right choice.
all these sufferings and pains are not satan's deeds.
he can only entice human beings into doing them.
EVERYTHING IS UP TO US

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[–] fingersticks133 15 years ago

why rely so much on a 2000 year old book? harry potter is more moral than this piece of crap.

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[–] chris-2512 15 years ago

^LOL!

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[–] Pavluke 16 years ago

"God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, he is weak, and this does not apply to God. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful, which is equally foreign to God's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?"
-Epicurus (341 to 270 BCE)

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[–] Underzim7 16 years ago

what does a cyclone have to do with people's sins? cyclones, weather...NATURE... this has been happening long before humans were alive, and will continue to happen long after. And quoting scripture to make a point or back yourself up doesn't hold up in any sort of debate, only facts do.

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[–] ninedayfall75 15 years ago

So your "Almighty God" doesn't control nature...lol?

God is pretend.

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[–] Gina_Riley_Admirer 15 years ago

God has a way of wreaking havoc on areas renowned for major sinning. So in a sense it does come down to free will.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Gina_Riley_Admirer 15 years ago

He also sees things that we don't. Like, everything.

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[–] Hythlodaeus 16 years ago

It's very hard to describe unless you study the Bible. There's a great book called "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis.

Here's a good description from Amazon.

The Problem of Pain answers the universal question, "Why would an all-loving, all-knowing God allow people to experience pain and suffering?" Master Christian apologist C.S. Lewis asserts that pain is a problem because our finite, human minds selfishly believe that pain-free lives would prove that God loves us. In truth, by asking for this, we want God to love us less, not more than he does. "Love, in its own nature, demands the perfecting of the beloved; that the mere 'kindness' which tolerates anything except suffering in its object is, in that respect at the opposite pole from Love." In addressing "Divine Omnipotence," "Human Wickedness," "Human Pain," and "Heaven," Lewis succeeds in lifting the reader from his frame of reference by artfully capitulating these topics into a conversational tone, which makes his assertions easy to swallow and even easier to digest. Lewis is straightforward in aim as well as honest about his impediments, saying, "I am not arguing that pain is not painful. Pain hurts. I am only trying to show that the old Christian doctrine that being made perfect through suffering is not incredible. To prove it palatable is beyond my design." The mind is expanded, God is magnified, and the reader is reminded that he is not the center of the universe as Lewis carefully rolls through the dissertation that suffering is God's will in preparing the believer for heaven and for the full weight of glory that awaits him there. While many of us naively wish that God had designed a "less glorious and less arduous destiny" for his children, the fortune lies in Lewis's inclination to set us straight with his charming wit and pious mind. --Jill Heatherly

What hump?

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[–] Inkubas 16 years ago

God exists and while I don't follow the practical religious aspects set forth in The Books, I won't disagree with the following points: God exists. God is all powerful.
So yea, I do believe that if God wills it, this pain and suffering can be ended. Why it doesn’t end? Only God knows.

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[–] Hythlodaeus 16 years ago

C.S. Lewis has a great book, "The Problem of Pain" which talks about why God allows evil and pain to exist - he even asks why God allows animals to feel pain, who cannot benefit from it as far as learning moral lessons.

What hump?

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[–] ninedayfall75 15 years ago

Your "God" allows evil and pain to exist because he was made up by man.

God is pretend.

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[–] clint-177 15 years ago

Be sure to tell God that when you meet Him.

Also, next time you go back in time and stand in a universe not yet created and see that the big bang happened and that God doesn't exist, be sure to get me a souvenir, you who know all with perfect clarity.

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[–] usmc8408 15 years ago

what do you mean don't tell you free will? that's a fundamental belief in christianity. that's like saying "what's 1+1, but don't use math." you can't present an argument and then tell someone what you think should or should not be used as a rebuttal.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Rockcomputers81 15 years ago

It's because it's BS god does not exist. He or she is a man made abstract. This is the easiest way to explain all of this. Occam's razor people "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best".

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[–] azzer 13 years ago

Wow, well put my friend. So the question would also be, why are some peoples prayers answered and some aren't?

I used to go to Church when i was young, and i kid you not, the answers would be along the lines of "well, John wasnt praying hard enough"

So if God is all powerful, he would let a child be raped? The answers below often come up:

- well God works in mysterious ways
- Its all part of Gods plan

How could people believe in a God that would let such atrocities occur?

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[–] SiPayn 13 years ago

Its all very simple. Its a case of one lot of normally rational and reasonable people saying that their imaginary friend is cooler and better than the other person's, and if you don't believe me you will burn in a hell of some kind, or be reincarnated as a rodent.

That is basically the easiest way to sum up intra and inter religious debate.

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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[–] bite_me_loser_86 13 years ago

Wow, well put my friend. So the question would also be, why are some peoples prayers answered and some aren't?

I used to go to Church when i was young, and i kid you not, the answers would be along the lines of "well, John wasnt praying hard enough"

So if God is all powerful, he would let a child be raped? The answers below often come up:

- well God works in mysterious ways
- Its all part of Gods plan

How could people believe in a God that would let such atrocities occur?

Well said. You'd think that an omnipotent God would be able to work out a 'plan' that doesn't involve the raping and maiming of millions of children everyday, all over the world.

I have heard so many arguments for why God would allow innocent people to suffer and I don't buy any of them.
Free will? Where is the free will of the little boys and girls that were molested and terrorized by the clergy for years? Where's the free will of the people whose children were ripped out of their arms when the tsunami hit? Where is the free will of the millions of people, including children that are starving, dying of diseases and being sold to trafficking every year?

Sorry, but 'free will' doesn't explain anything. It's just a bad cop out.

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[–] hwoarang45 9 years ago

indeed.... ironically the title of this thread has answers itself....
" If God exists, couldn't he prevent this from happening?" = obviously the answer is no.. he does not... as simple as that..

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[–] xrongor 15 years ago

if god is god, he is not good.
if god is good, he is not god.

"in this world there's two kinds of people ... those with loaded guns, and those who dig."

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[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] SiPayn 15 years ago

I'll paraphrase from Watchmen :

"It's not God that kills, it's not God that butchers the children, it's not God that feeds their bones to the dogs, it's us. Only us."

We, human beings commit these acts, do not blame some mythical, non-existant being for the evils that beset man. We are responsible, individually and as a society, and to blame some external force abrogates that responsibility away from us.

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] RaginScotsman 15 years ago

Even if god exists,doesnt mean he cares

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[–] glenavyhotel 15 years ago

imagine if it was satan who invented catholisum?? (ok yeah i cant spell)
maybe he did, as it seems the higher you go in the hirachy, the more evil you become??
just a thought.....

a severd foot is an alternate stocking filler?

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[–] DemonicXero 15 years ago

so the pope is the most evil person in the world, and one of the largest forms of religion secretely follows Satan's teachings of evil?

You're thinking about the Sith.

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[–] glenavyhotel 15 years ago

secret things are kept by those that mean to do unwell...
the pope is all about cocaine and 5yo boys!!
yup evil the pope is!!! and his posse of followers!!!

a severd foot is an alternate stocking filler?

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[–] jaustin035 15 years ago

Well, that point can certainly be argued rationally and with vast amounts of evidence. No offense to the Catholic laity - all accusations go straight to the Vatican and work their way down from there.

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[–] razorwinged_dragonfly 15 years ago

Actually it's the other way around, Satan (or at least Satan as the devil) is an invention of catholicism to mess up with people.

-A real friend stabs you in the front-

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[–] cowpotpi3 15 years ago

God isn't the problem...its organized religion that is.

The Catholic Church along with quite a few other major movements are more like the mafia than they are a religious organization in their hierarchy.

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[–] jaustin035 15 years ago

Excellent, accurate and concise, my cowpie friend. Sorry for the pun but I'm sure you've seen it before.

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