There're countless of movies that depicts the horror of the Holocaust, from The Schindler's List to this current film. Most of them revolves about the torture of Jews by the Germans. I know that this is a taboo discussion topic but how do Germans feel about all these pictures made about their ancestors? Do you get annoyed?
shareFirst of all: It's no taboo and no, I'm not getting annoyed.
Secondly, the movies weren't made about _us_ - they were made about Germans more than half a century ago, simple as that. It's like watching History Channel.
It's part of Germanys history, but not part of me. It was wrong and a tremendous crime, but I didn't commit this crime.
I'm not in denial here or something, but I would very likely shed tears in a powerful movie about slaughtered Tutsi in Ruanda, shot-to-dead Russians in Gulags or clubbed-to-death Cambodians in the Killing Fields.
And I don't feel guilty if that's the core of your question and I was never pressured/manipulated (to feel guilty) by people and friends from all over the world when I was living abroad for a couple of years and this subject came up.
Evil is evil wherever in the world, it has a long and successful history and -unfortunately- a prosperous future.
Call me fatalistic or a pessimist, but I think that's human nature below a very thin layer of civilization. Things like this can happen anywhere and anytime. Think about the Stanford Prison Experiment or experiments about torture the psychologist Stanley Milgram (google it) conducted and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
So, it's nothing special German - it can be found in almost every race and in almost every people around the world, it is sad, it is a fact and it is human.
Nobody should cast a stone and immediately get off his/her high horse unless he/she has been in situations and times like this.
Trying to relevate the Holocaust, is a kind of denial.
That's a typically and expected reflex. It seems you didn't even tried to grasp what I was talking about. For me there are no 1st class or 2nd class victims of crimes against humanity. Murdered people are murdered people regardless of their race, faith or whatever. If that's "relevating the holocaust", up to you.
And, btw, the last 2 paragraphs in my previous post was especially written for people like you who are deliberately reading something else into a otherwise crystal clear statement and so to think before they write, but obviously to no avail...
I have news for you. I am originally German- Jewish , daughter of a holocaust survivor. My grandparents and most of my father's family perished in Auschwitz. I grew up in Germany and immigrated to Israel when I started university.
I have met all kinds of approaches of Germans, who were born after WW2 , relating to the Holocaust. The most comfortable approach was the one you present here. "It could have happened anywhere to anyone".
FACT IS: The Holocaust, the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind, happened in GERMANY and was inflicted by GERMANS, probably the generation of your grandfather,and not by some Martians who landed in the German Reich and kidnapped the poor innocent inhabitants of your country. The most recent researches show, that around 250.000 people took actively part in the atrocities.
Having said that, I do not think that any German being too young for having participated in WW2 ( "the grace of late birth" - in the words of the former German chancellor Helmut Kohl)is guilty or should be held responsible.
BUT I do think, that every young German should be aware of his country's past and show concern, respect and humility facing the bitter facts of his not so far history.
Your "news" are nothing but a claim that can't be verified. Hell, I could claim to be the daughter of a holocaust survivor and you wouldn't know.
We would meet on a different level, wouldn't we?
It's always the same: People get "attacked" afterwards for not giving the "(politically) correct" answer or what other people wish to hear from them.
icefire65 asked a simple question about how Germans feel about those movies. I answered it's like watching History Channel.
You jump on it and demand to show concern, respect and humility.
Who you think you are to tell me (and I think I fall in the category "every young German") what to think and how to feel, "comfortable approach", huh?!
Furthermore, you choose to completely ignore the fact that I said all victims of genocide or crimes against humanity are equal, but that seems not enough for you.
Do you want me to declare that the holocaust was the worst crime and therefore the Jewish have been "worse off than other"??
Again the afore-mentioned "1st/2nd class victim" card??
Why are you highlighting your FACT that much? I never denied the holocaust and by whom it was committed! Trying to put me in a corner?
You know, I was working at the state archive Berlin for a couple of years and had to sort out, register, read and summarize all kinds of documents, letters etc.
from sterilisation over disposession of jewish property all the way to deportation and death.
I've read enough to get nightmares, so again - nobody tells me what to think and what to feel.
I hope I haven't been to harsh in my reply (I'm sure I was...), but I don't like being labeled and/or lectured!
Who I think I am?
I am a reminder and a living candle of rememberance .
For you facing me stirs up emotions. And good so.
But there is no need for agressive-defensive or harsh responses.
Your leant-backed and ostentively nonchalent (in German: "flappsiges"!)
statement, that watching a Holocaust movie is for you like watching
history channel sends signals of self-inflicted detachment.
The trend to relevate the Holocaust is an easy way out
to face its relevance and unique position in modern European history.
And YES, the Jewish people have suffered most, although you seem to have
difficulties to admit it.
Some people say, that the Germans will never forgive the Jews
that Auschwitz happend.
This is a sentence that needs to be read twice.
I will accept your nightmares as a token of your emotion.
Quite explosive topic...
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
As you are so good at telling us (Germans and - not to forget - Austrians like me) how we should feel about the Holocaust ... maybe you can help me out:
My grandfather was a member of the SA and definetly a Nazi. His brother was arrested as a deserter because he didn't want to fight for Hitler. Now, should I feel guilty because my father's father supported one of the most horrible crimes that ever happened or am I allowed to be a bit proud because another member of my family was against it and brave enough to show that?
Saying that something like the Holocaust could have happended anywhere is by no means relevating it. It's just a very sad truth.
The human race is cruel by nature and this has nothing to do with colour, religion or national borders. Call me pessimistic but if we (by we I mean mankind as a whole!) keep on like this our grandchildren or even our children might see things that are even worse! So instead of feeling guilty for our country's past we should rather take care for the future so that something like the Holocaust can't happen again.
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
Good point Moruad made...Timberlady1 why didnt you react on the above?
No, it doesn't "stir up emotions". It's fun to argue with someone with a hidden agenda...
And am I not supposed to be a cold-blooded German without any responsibility in regards to my forefathers crimes?!
I also think that your constant (and again, lecturing) use and highlighting of German words to bring your point across seems to prove my point that you're not what you pretend to be. Certainly not a daughter of a holocaust victim with German roots.
I guess you're a self opinionated, theatrical and joyless girl indulged in self-importance combined with a priggish and "perfect" morally integrity that inevitable makes you...a bore.
I rest my case.
Your agressive manner of discussing with me, and your disbelief of my family's direct Holocaust history proves, how hard it is for you, to face me.
Your problem appears widening by every comment of yours.
And YES, you are better off, to rest your case, as you announced.
You sound like a goddamned terrorist. Ease off, love.
Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!
I think the Jewish were the most desirable target - that's why they happenned to suffer from direct genocide more than the others. They were relatively rich, they had property and money, while the growing, heavy-militarizing nazi economy needed more and more resources. Nationalistic ideology was just a 'suitable' justification to take everything the nazis needed. Although, I don't think the division into 1st and 2nd class victims is accurate - that's the road that leads to nowhere. Many nations suffered, including the German nation itself, - and common grief should unite us all so that nothing like this will happen again.
I agree that this could happen anywhere where there were certain historical conditions and political situation.
And I think Timberlady needs to get over herself. Maybe take a look around and see what the Zionists in Israel have been doing to the Palestinians for the past 60 years.
Some people are so damn self-righteous they can't see past the end of their own noses. Get into the 21st century and deal with what's happening now, not what happened to people before you were even born.
Breaking news: However horrible that time was, and nobody is denying the awfulness of the Jews' (and gypsies, and homosexuals, and the mentally ill) experiences, it is not THE defining moment in human history.
How do I feel about this movie?
Actually quite good. This movie is humanistic. The movie does not have an agenda.
Another thing, the Spielberg movie was not done by a German, this movie, Downfall and other Nazi era movies currently being filmed or done recently are done by GERMANS. This is Germans reflecting on this era and not some other outside influence reflecting on this.
Would you want Europeans making an American Civil War film?
doubt it.
When embarking on the journey of revenge, dig two graves. - Confucius
I agree with you.
It is specially relevant to see a movie dealing with the Nazi era, reflected by German (or Austrian) filmmakers.
Oh, I don't know. Sergio Leone with The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly has made the most touching film about the American Civil war yet to be made. I think sometimes a national could just as easily get wrapped up in an agenda or personal attachment as an outsider. As long as you bother to know what you're talking about, it can be fine. Even Spielberg's Empire of the Sun was relatively agenda-less.
"I can bring them all back."
German Director ROland Emmerich directed The Patriot, set in the maerican war of independence.
share@bogwart-1
When the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, Jews were living in every country of Europe. A total of roughly 9 million Jews lived in the 21 countries that would be occupied by Germany during World War II. By the end of the war, 2 out of 3 of these Jews (meaning 6 million) had perished due to Nazi atrocities, and European Jewish life would be changed forever, reaching deep into today's history.
I am very well aware of the history involved. The operative word being history. I was born before the State of Israel came into being. I repeat - nobody here, so far as I can see, was/is trying to denigrate you or your family's experience. But the time is past when you can legitimately demand special treatment from everybody, especially when there is so much genocide and ethnic cleansing and general mayhem in other areas of the world today, some of it, sadly, caused by Israel.
Sabai27 made a perfectly reasonable post, and you jumped all over him. In my opinion you have signed up to a class of Jews who are not representative of a majority of Israeli citizens. And you are certainly not representative of the Jews I know and am friendly with here in the UK. Maybe it's more a sabra thing.
Maybe you should try reading Haaretz instead of your current news source for a while, and see if any of the scales drop from your eyes.
I wish you well, and I wish you the ability to forgive. If you cannot forgive others how can you forgive yourself?
As I wrote before, I am not a Sabra (born in Israel), but immigrated from Germany to Israel.
I do not think, that I have the right to forgive the systematic genocide of my ancestors. Let us also not forget, that victims and murderers are still among the living.
I have never put the burden of guilt on anyone of the later generations.
However, I do expect a sensitive, compassionate and reflective way of communication.
Indeed, I do cultivate friendships with people from Germany, who are eager to explore ways of understanding.
As an American with a large vocabulary, I must ask if there is a definition for the word "relevate", since I am not familiar with it and did not find it when I looked it up. Frankly, I think you have a different word in mind.
Timber, I think you must read again what Sabha wrote. Whether you like it or not, her (his?) initial response to the OP is honest. She did not deny that it was her country where these atrocities took place, or that they happened. I also do not take her words to mean that what happened did not matter, or that it wasn't pure evil. You are asking for a conflict filled with defensive accusations about yourself by starting off as you did. To accuse someone of denial is not helpful, and will not teach anyone anything about what really happened or how to prevent it from ever happening again. I personally have found that to be 'sensitive, compassionate and reflective' on such topics is being too respectful to the atrocities themselves. That is how history comes to repeat itself; those who do not fully understand the past place it too high on a pedestal, are afraid to ask questions about it, and never really comprehend how close we are to the same conditions that created the events. We are STILL fully able to commit the same systematic extermination of humans as we were in the early 1940's.
I once had a disagreement with my German teacher, who was like a grandmother to me. I had a German internet pen pal who was frustrated that Germans were denied any history outside of the Hitler era. I told this to my German teacher - a Jewish Austrian who just barely escaped Europe - and she said, "No, you don't understand! I LOVED Germany and her history! I studied at Berlin University! I loved German composers, and everything that was German - AND THAT COUNTRY BROKE MY HEART." If I had been sensitive, I never would have said such a thing and never would have fully understood the essence of Germany's - of HITLER's - crime.
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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...
"As an American with a large vocabulary" <--- LOL!
In the words of Otto:
Zeppelin Rulllesss!!
In 1942, when nazis were at the gate of Moscow, Stalin in his order said "...it would be ridiculous to identify Hitler's clique with the German people and the German State. History shows that Hitlers come and go, but the German people and the German State remain". By that time nazis murdered millions of Russians, and by the end of the war the number would be more than 30 million. That pretty much says everything. I think you shouldn't be that assertive in your expectations for sensitivity, compassion and reflection, however, you can always expect fairness, and that's what most people are more than willing to give.
shareWell put.
Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!
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[deleted]
One thing is for certain, you are a complete degenerate.
My 100 favorite movies http://www.imdb.com/list/Uvw_F2_GMx8/
What are your favorites?
[deleted]
So wonderfully put. I couldn't agree more.
My 100 favorite movies http://www.imdb.com/list/Uvw_F2_GMx8/
What are your favorites?
I have news for you. I am originally German- Jewish , daughter of a holocaust survivor. My grandparents and most of my father's family perished in Auschwitz. I grew up in Germany and immigrated to Israel when I started university.
I have met all kinds of approaches of Germans, who were born after WW2 , relating to the Holocaust. The most comfortable approach was the one you present here. "It could have happened anywhere to anyone".
FACT IS: The Holocaust, the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind, happened in GERMANY and was inflicted by GERMANS, probably the generation of your grandfather,and not by some Martians who landed in the German Reich and kidnapped the poor innocent inhabitants of your country. The most recent researches show, that around 250.000 people took actively part in the atrocities.
Having said that, I do not think that any German being too young for having participated in WW2 ( "the grace of late birth" - in the words of the former German chancellor Helmut Kohl)is guilty or should be held responsible.
BUT I do think, that every young German should be aware of his country's past and show concern, respect and humility facing the bitter facts of his not so far history.
i suppose you could ask the question how do americans feel about their ancestors enslaving, raping and murdering millions of africans over the course of a couple of hundred years due to the slave trade.
or the british enslaving millions of people with their empire.
history is history - the most important thing is we should all try to understand the reasons and causes of such atrocities and try to learn from the mistakes of the past.
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"I think that's human nature below a very thin layer of civilization."
No doubt about it. Definitely human nature, definitely a chance to happen again and again.
Though there will always be some differences. One could CHOOSE to be like the guard who urinated on Sulli and obviously enjoyed the pain, the humiliation he inflicted on others and those who at the very least didn't wantonly murder people.
I also think it's a REALLY thin layer of civilization we're talking about. Real thin.
Probably one of the questions people have is if the German people were the same as other people, and they just had the misfortune of having a bad leader, or if there was something peculiar about the German people that allowed their government to commit the Holocaust. I don't have an answer, and I'm not sure if that can be answered in a meaningful way. I can observe that Germany has been a stable, democratic country after the War, and the prospect of another war in western Europe is pretty much unthinkable. The same with Japan, as well.
shareAnother question people have is what is the cause of anti-semitism. I'm not sure if that has a rational answer either. Some say that war and racism are innate to human nature. If I had to guess I would say it's resentment at their success in business and the professions, and the fact that they look a bit different from non-jewish people.
sharewell how can i put it?
its the history of my country, not mine. even if it would be my personal history, why should i feel bad about those movies telling the truth?
only thing i hate is when people cant seperate the "moviegermans" and the real ones. the majority of the germans hate nazis. period. there will always be some monkeybrains who dont get it and stay that way but thats the case all around the world in every country.
another question:
would any american feel bad if they saw a movie about the klan? well, yes. if they were a klanmember. but who in his right state of mind would? see? ;)
All of you would do well to remember that Jews were not the only victims of the Nazis and it's disrespectful to talk about the six million people who died. When you count the Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, Poles, Russians, communists and others, it's more like 10-12 million. Too much historical jabber ignores that. Yes, Jews made up the largest group of victims, but they weren't the only ones.
share"All of you would do well to remember that Jews were not the only victims of the Nazis and it's disrespectful to talk about the six million people who died. When you count the Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, Poles, Russians, communists and others, it's more like 10-12 million. Too much historical jabber ignores that. Yes, Jews made up the largest group of victims, but they weren't the only ones."
It's also worth noting that the Jews were the only group who had the distinction of being targeted by the Nazis for complete annihilation. Yes, many groups were persecuted by the Nazis, but the Jews were specifically targeted, as an entire race, to be wiped off the face of the earth. No, they were not, by any stretch of the imagination, "the only ones", but that distinction should be noted.
Lets be clear about something first here shall we.
Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Germans were involved in the holocaust. Many Germans had no idea what was going on in the camps. For many Germans they were fighting for their country... they were being controlled by propoganda supplied by the state. (think of the scene in this film where Sally meets the wife and children)
Its hard not to judge a country on the actions made by the few or in this case the many.
But compare it to America now... many Americans disagree with whats happening around the world in their name. Many Americans have had no involvement in the war, many have no idea what is happening in Guantanamo bay... whilst I am not trying to compare the two there are distinct similarities.
Germans should learn their history the same way that everyone else does. I also think more countries should learn the story of world war 2 as I believe its not taught in all countries.
I am not German but I have to acknowledge that is a common place to use the terms "Germans" and "Nazis" as synonymous, and that's wrong.
1st of all, contrary to the popular belief, not all the germans were Nazis.
2nd. Many germans were victims of the nazis as well, and not only jew germans but also germans considered not "aryan" enough, plus "retarded" citizens, people who suffered some kind of genetic disease ("freaks", as they were called) or terminal diseases, homosexuals, and political dissidents (socialists, communists, anarchists, democrats, etc.).
3rd. Some people from other ethnicities were german collaborationists: (Croatians, Hungarians, Romanians, Spaniards --followers of Franco--, Italians, bulgarians, japaneses, finns, poles, of course austrians and many "germans" who lived outside of Germany, etc.
Don't get me wrong MOST people from those countries never supported the Nazi regime, but some of them did it. So, the germans are not the only ones to blame.
Of course, german citizens are responsible to some extent, at least those who voted for Hitler. But then is the same responsibility that many yanks have for voting for Bush... Twice!
German people are normal human beings like the rest of us (I feel odd saying that). Most of them are friendly, peace lovers and nice, but a few of them are monsters like Hitler and other Nazi leaders. You can find people like them on any country, just that you need a very particular environment and social circumstances to create the right situation where a sick man like Hitler could control an entire country at his will and to drive it right to the abyss.
Granted, the average german had anti-semitic feelings, but then which country didn't have an important portion of anti-semites among their own citizens? lots of brits, US citizens, russians, poles, frenchs, etc. were (and sadly still some of the are) antisemite people on different degree.
What happened in the WW2 was a catastrophe, a holocaust, a madness that not only affected jews but also chinese people, soviets (half of the people killed during the WW2 were soviets), gypsies, japaneses, frenchs, serbians, poles, germans!... Practically every country involved in the war.
I think makes no sense and doesn't help to keep blaming germans of today, for what "some" of their ancestors did. Better blame the awful ideology that was one of the main causes (if not the main) for what happened during the WW2. That ideology is called Nazi-Fascism. That's the really enemy. It's trying to re-emerge here and there, from USA to France, Italy, Spain, Russia, etc, We shouldn't allow it.
auf Wiedersehen.
Sabai is making reasonable posts and timber is just being hateful. I mean he didnt deny the suffering the Jews endured, he didn't give the German criminals a pass, he just said he looks at the events at a certain distance that I am sure most Germans born post war share. Its not right to attack him simply because he he isn't as empathetic as you desire him to be.
Timber claims that the Jews suffered most is a laugh, who are you to say? You've got relatives that suffered, obviously that makes you the grand vizier on the hierarchy of suffering throughout history. I'm not saying the Jews had it easy, the Holocaust was certainly the most organized and bone chilling mass genocide ever, but how can you rate that pain with slave children in the diamond mines of Congo or the ethnic cleansing of all non Christians during the inquisition.
Being imprisoned, starved, tortured, and watching your family die before you are executed yourself is the same the world over and has occurred thousands of time en masse. Like Sabai said there is no greater victim, the numbers in the case of the holocaust are just disproportionately huge. I don't think that fact alone gives you the right to denigrate Sabai's views on Victim A / Victim B, and you were much to hostile with him.
Okay, I'm not German or Jewish but I know something about "hateful." I watched my mother and father hacked to death by Muslims. And those same "tribal warlords" then gang-raped my sister repeatedly, for many days until she died. This I watched from hiding, too afraid to even cry out. So I also understand what it's like to act in a manner that might be perceived as cowardly when one is under duress. I can relate to many of the subjects of this film. Only John Wayne and John McCain can't relate to this. ;-))
But to those who would then call "Timberlady" hateful, you are the most hateful of all. You hide behind clever equivocations. Example: first "Harkness 78" says "...the Holocaust was certainly the most organized and bone chilling mass genocide ever" - but then goes on to mitigate this by asking, "but how can you rate that pain with slave children in the diamond mines of Congo." He then goes beyond mitigation to a logical fallacy, a statement which seems fine on the surface but beneath (or subconciously) says the opposite: "Like Sabai said there is no greater victim, the numbers in the case of the holocaust are just disproportionately huge."
First, yes, it is difficult to compare PAIN. But it is easy to compare PROPORTION. Yes, "millions of Russians" were killed in WW2. However, they were mostly killed in or in the context of battle, one side against the other. That's not GENOCIDE!! That's warfare! The Jews, by comparison, were more than innocent civilians and productive German citizens (not enemy combatants). They were tortured, raped and hideously murdered because of their religious inheritance!! And it was more than 2/3's of their entire population!! Read your own phrase again, the key to understanding WHY the HOLOCAUST is far worse than any of the other atrocities is because it was GREATLY DISPROPORTIONATE, not "JUST" disproportionate. The word "just" (meaning "only" or "simply") is part of the word "justify." And by using "just" in that sentence or phrase justifies the act and reduces its significance. Gosh, why do you speak English so poorly? ;-))
To compare that to "children in a diamond mine" is ludicrous and insulting even to those very children. When you misuse words like "slavery" glibly it actually debases those who were or are definitive "slaves." Just btw, most of who are called "slaves" in the world today are pitifully EMPLOYED children who would likely also die outside of the "factory" or "mine" or wherever they're abused because the conditions inflicted by their own rulers on their own populace are, indeed, hideous and abusive. The rest are women who live in many Muslim countries and are physically mutilated, tortured or abused simply because they are women.
I am both African, Christian and Female from a nation where Christians are murdered because they are Christian, where women are raped because they are women - all by our brethren Africans! But "all" Africans or Germans or Muslims are not "all" bad. Again, it's a matter of PROPORTION.
I am, as such, disturbed by branding "Timber" as "hateful" or dismissing the Holocaust by comparing it to other, yes I'll say it, equally painful but lesser atrocities.
Thanks for listening.
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I just saw The Counterfeiters yesterday & just went through this thread ( up to Mar. 27th, 2010 ).
KenyaOne, you said it best among all the posters here. Save me time to write something similar. I realized your post dated almost 1&1/2 year ago but I believe in telling somebody how considerate they are whenever I happen to run across one.
The supernatural is the natural not yet understood - Elbert Hubbard.
Thank you.
shareKenyaOne, I'm very sorry for the atrocities you and your family have gone through.
There is an error in your comment though:
"[Russians] were mostly killed in or in the context of battle, one side against the other. That's not GENOCIDE!"
NO: Many Russians died in battle, but the slavs were considered sub-humans in the Nazi ideology. So Russians (and other slavs) were slaughtered based on their race.
For instance, Russians POW were denied POW status: the first experiments of Zyclon B were conducted on Russian POWs (who were deported in Auschwitz and other camps).
The slaughtering of civilians was very systematic in the East, as the Nazi troops advanced. And in non occupied territories, civilians were systematically starved (e.g. Leningrad 1941).
So yes, the Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews as part of their genocide (roughly 2/3 of European Jews). They also exterminated several 100.000s of gypsies (harder to determine the exact number or proportion, but a genocide nonetheless), and their crimes against the slavic ppl was no less genocidal (Hitler, fortunately, didn't have time to "implement" his entire plan).
Well, many of these films are actually made by Germans, including this one (it won the Oscar for Austria, but it's actually a co-production).
share[deleted]
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If you stay for the closing credits, you'll notice that this film, like all the best ones on the subject matter, are made by German-speakers whose ancestors were involved in the atrocities they're depicting. So in answer to your question- no, we don't get annoyed as it's not a taboo or anything, nor is public debate on the matter censored or anything like that. In fact, I'm proud of the great films that have come out of Germany, e.g. Das Boot or Der Untergang.
Beijing Bloggin' - UPDATED 12 NOVEMBER
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Wow, I just finished reading this thread - I knew even when I started that this would very quickly digress from the original topic, which was "how do movies like this make Germans feel". Pretty much to the usual question: Are all Germans to blame for the HOlocaust and are today's Germans still to be held responsible!!
I can't really add much to this, as I think pretty much everything has been said before; I do think quite a few people made some good points, and I'd like to thank the non-Germans who contributed - what they said (mostly) made me feel better (I have to admit that I felt absolutely terrible after watching this movie, which I thought was definitely one of the best dealing with this topic that I've ever seen. It felt much more genuine, for example, than Schindler's List, which was very Hollywoodish (still very good and touching, don't get me wrong!!). And being German, albeit a post-WWII born one, you can't help but feel petrified, and you ask yourself over and over again: How could this happen??
I personally fail completely to understand what it is that should make non-Jews hate Jews so much - as far as I'm concerned, Judaism seems to be one of the more peaceful religions under which a lot fewer people died and suffered than, for example, CAtholicism or Islam. And a good proportion of pre-WAr Germany was Jewish, we probably had one of the largest contingent anywhere. Usually popular, successful, respected citizens - Germans first of all, then Jews.
But obviously all of these points have been made a thousand times, and nobody ever came up with an answer, so I doubt that I will :-)
Luckily, all of this has been over for quite some time now, even though the Brits still seem totally obsessed with WWII (I've been living in Britain for 8 months now and cannot believe what a big topic this still is here - on the telly, in the tabloids etc....), and there is absolutely no danger that it'll ever be forgotten or downplayed - certainly not in Germany, where this makes up a good part of the history agenda taught in schools.
If anything, it makes me proud to watch movies like this - honest movies which do not try to euphemise or whitewash the most horrible part of our history. If only other countries would do that, too.........
Shame for posters like that German lady who emigrated to Israel (soandsolady?) - I don't think she is helping her cause any!
Peaceful greetings from a German in the UK
PS: The one thing that I kept my thoughts turning and turning is the question of how to compare and who's to judge what is worse or less bad. Anyone who has been tortured or killed (or their relatives) will probably think that that was the worst. I don't see how torturing, enslaving and killing a Jew differs very much from doing the same to a Roma or a homosexual or victims in other parts of the world, that came across a bit presumptuous from that lady from Israel.....
Timberlady1,
Just because you're jewish, that doesn't excuse your people's crimes.
"Having said that, I do not think that any German being too young for having participated in WW2 ( "the grace of late birth" - in the words of the former German chancellor Helmut Kohl)is guilty or should be held responsible.
BUT I do think, that every young German should be aware of his country's past and show concern, respect and humility facing the bitter facts of his not so far history. "
Like Israel is now showing concern, respect and humility to the families of Palestinians being forced out of their lands?
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Your post couldn't be more factually incorrect or nonsensical. If today's Germans can be absolved and just 'aware' of their history, why are 'her people's crimes' attached to Timberlady?
Second, the Palestinian issue is not remotely close to the Holocaust. One is a territorial dispute that mostly involves inconveniences like roadblocks, and skirmishes. The Holocaust was about the application of the machinery of state to the annihilation of a people and culture (which for the most part had assimilated and participated in German life). There has not been a similar action since. Slavery in America is not the same, the Rwandan genocide is not the same, Darfur is not the same; although all of these are heinous. They don't need to be made equivalent.
Finally, read some Tacitus. He wrote some interesting things about the German people.
I don't think that Germans born post-WW2 should have to put up with guilt and stigma of being associated with the country's Nazi party.
Evil is evil anywhere. I disagree with the notion that people are to blame for the "sins of their fathers".
Yes the holocaust was atrocious and "racial cleansing" on a mass scale is one of the worst things human beings have ever done to one another. Yet there are many atrocities committed throughout history and even now in modern times.
The past is the past and cannot be changed, however I believe Germany has evolved and has turned their misfortunes post-WW2 into a very positive direction, especially since the fall of the Berlin wall.
Now Germany is a very evolved country and has made quite a lot of contributions to the world at large, especially in areas like car manufacturing, music, and technology.
Should we forget what happened? No, but we shouldn't feel more attached to it personally than we do about any other historical atrocities.
Vlad the Impaler was pure evil too, but since it was pre-industrial he "only" slaughtered 80,000.
But if you want more apples to apples comparison look at the Inquisition and Stalin's reign. Yes a lot of evil has happened in the world throughout history.
I think if history angers you and you don't want to repeat the past you should focus energies on the BS that is going on RIGHT NOW in the world.
Such as genocide, war, gender inequality, racism, and homophobia. In many Islamic countries women are still considered second-class citizens. Shouldn't one's anger about historical atrocities try to push forward some sort of positive agenda to minimize modern atrocities and prevent future ones?
The holocaust happened and it is a very sad mark on human history. But post-ww2 Germans have no more responsibility for it than anyone else on the planet does.
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Jesus wasn't a homophobe.
Evil is everywhere, there are people being slaughtered around the world even today.
If you don't believe in Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
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