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need help from non-Christians + Christians

posted 16 years ago by trina_disneyfanatic
26 replies | jump to latest

This has nothing to do with the movie, except that it's Christian themes.
I am currently in an ethics class, and I need to add a few pages to my term paper to get the full page requirement. Part of this term paper is responding to possible objections some people might raise to our stance. Being a Christian, I definitely had things to say about the philosophers we were studying. I'll outline my positions here, and if people could respond by raising thier objections, it would help me with my paper.
Now, I do not want this to turn into a bitter argument, just a rational discussion. I'll make repies to this with one part at a time so that this initial post does not get too long.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part One:

One of the class discussion topics that really sparked my interest was the week we discussed Saint Augustine. The following situation was presented: one person, throughout a sizeable portion of his/her life, violated the Christian principles of living; but then shortly before they died, they genuinely accepted Christ. On the other hand, there is a second person who, although he/she is not a Christian and does not believe in God, has indeed lived by these same Christian principles throughout their life. The question was then raised if the first person would receive eternal life while the second would receive eternal damnation.
I believe these people have made their choices. The Bible makes it clear that we must accept Jesus as the Savior of our lives, and only then will we be allowed into heaven, receiving eternal life. If we do not, we will spend an eternity in hell, an eternal death. Jesus offers everyone the gift of eternal life, but the choice is left up to us to either reject or accept the gift. It is up to us then to determine where we will spend eternity. However, I believe it is also important for lifestyle to match this decision, living the way God wants us to. If we don’t we’re essentially telling Him that we don’t really want Him involved in our lives after all, and aren’t actually accepting His gift.
Still, our eternal destination does not rest merely upon doing good works. Reading what the text says about Saint Augustine, however, it seemed that he emphasized a good lifestyle. In itself, this is not a bad thing, but the text hardly mentions Jesus when describing Augustine’s views. Yet Christianity itself is founded upon Jesus.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part two:

Another one of our class discussions in relation to Augustine had to do with Christianity and wealth. The verse given is from the book of Matthew 19. Matthew 19:16-24 gives the account of a rich young ruler who approached Jesus and asked Him what he should do to gain eternal life. Jesus told him to obey the commandments: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself (Jesus notably leaves out the commandment to not covet). The young man replies by saying he has kept all these commandments, and asked what he still was lacking. Jesus then told him to sell all of his possessions and give to the poor, and then come follow Him. Upon hearing this, the man walked away in dismay because he had great wealth.
Jesus knew that this young ruler was a very rich man, and perceived that his wealth, as well as a lack of commitment and trust was serving as a hindrance for allowing the young ruler to accept the gift of eternal life. Therefore, in order to remove this hindrance, Jesus told him to rid himself of his wealth. However, by turning away, the man showed that his love for his wealth was greater than eternal life.
The text quotes verses 23-24: “And Jesus said to His disciples, ‘Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’” These verses don’t seem to give much hope for people who possess great wealth. However, it was not simply that this rich young ruler possessed great wealth that was hindering him from receiving eternal life, but his love for his wealth. The same applies to modern people of wealth. If we view our wealth as a gift from God, and use it wisely, then it does not become a hindrance. In addition, verses 24-25 go on to say that Jesus’s disciples were “greatly astonished” and asked Jesus if it was possible for anyone to be saved. Jesus answers them by saying that nothing is impossible with God. So even if there is someone who loves their wealth a little too much like the young ruler, with God’s help, it is possible to change our way of thinking.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part four (sorry, this is out of order; I got mixed up when looking at my paper):

When learning about Soren Kierkegaard, I liked the way he distinguished between Christianity and Christendom. I liked the way he said that Christianity involves an inward commitment, which in turn transforms one’s life. I believe that this is really what Christianity is all about. It involves recognizing Christ’s sacrifice for us, and making the decision to accept Jesus as the Savior of our lives. It doesn’t have to involve a prayer, but just deciding that God is in control of your life. Christendom, in contrast, is merely the things associated with Christianity: going to church, reading the Bible, and merely acting like a Christian should.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part three:

When reading about Friedrich Nietzsche and his master and slave moralities, I couldn’t help but disagree with Nietzsche’s assertions of Christianity. Nietzsche claims that with its promotion of love, sacrifice, and humility, the Church is rooted in the slave morality, which is oriented in resentment and fear. However, the Bible teaches that we ought to do these things out of love and respect for Jesus, as well as others and ourselves. We are to act humbly toward God, not out of fear, but out of respect. There are places in the Bible that talk about having a fear of God; but this fear is not out of cowardice and being afraid of God. In contrast, this fear of God means to have great respect for Him, and that we are in awe of His presence.

Christians, your help is needed for this part as well. One of my teacher's comments when he returned my rough draft was how would I specifically deal with assertions that the Bible was not divinely inspired. I know I've heard some things about the validity of the Bible, but I can't remember any specifics.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] ohsoso 16 years ago

I am just interested. I am not being provocative.

Do you believe in God because you BELIEVE or do you believe in God 'just in case'.

Hell is a big threat. How do you balance that with free will. For free will to be really free it can not have conditions. Otherwise it is a total contradiction if itself. The christian God is said to love unconditionally but God doesn't. He has many conditions. We must first believe. We must love and worship him. We must strive not to be sinful. There are comandments etc

Just wondering. I am interested.

[–] trammie7 16 years ago

I'm not Trina, but I'll give you my answer.

I believe in God because I believe.

God loves us, but because God is perfect, pure, and holy, He cannot allow imperfection - sin - in His presence or in His heavenly kingdom. If He allowed it, He would no longer be perfect. Adam was perfect until he did the single thing God had asked him not to do. He ate from the Tree of Knowledge and doing that was a sin because he disobeyed God. He brought the knowledge of good and evil into the perfection that God had created on earth. He brought sin into the world, thereby making God's perfect creation of Man imperfect. Which is why we are all born imperfect, in other words, we are born with a sinful nature - having knowledge of the difference between right and wrong.

So how can God allow us into heaven? The only way He can do that is to perfect us - to get rid of our sin, but how can He do that? God loves us so much that He sent 'perfection' to earth - He sent His own Son. Jesus was sent to be born as we are born, to live as we live, and to die as we die. Jesus did all that and never sinned - a perfect Man. On the cross, Jesus willingly accepted to take all of our sin upon Himself. God, the Father, took every single sin ever committed by anyone, at any time: past, present, and future, and gave the full punishment for all that sin to His Son. Jesus willingly sacrificed the perfection He shared in heaven by separating Himself from His Father to die for our sins, by giving His pure - perfect - blood to save us. Jesus took our place, so we could come to the Father cleansed by His Son's blood. So we could stand before the Father, sinless - perfected - and able to enter into heaven eternally.

Now ... our sins are paid for, but for Jesus to just remove the sins from our lives without asking us if we want Him to do that would violate our free will. After all, it's our sin, so it's our choice if we want to keep it or not. So He asks us, He offers it as a gift. We have to either take the gift or not take the gift - that's our choice.

Now ... if we decide we want that gift, that we want Him to take our sin, the sin that He already took the punishment for, how do we do it? We could simply ask Him to remove the sin. But in order to ask Him, we would have to believe that He actually exists, and that we believe He paid for our sins when He died, right? I mean, if you don't believe He exists, then who are you asking to do what?

God doesn't force you; He doesn't take away your free will. He leaves the decision up to you. He doesn't force you to believe in Him, doesn't force you to take the gift of your sins being paid for - the choice is completely and totally up to each and every person to decide for his or her self.

It's your choice if you want to go to Hell, your choice if you'd rather sin than not, your choice to love and worship God. Those aren't conditions; they are the consequences of your decision.

If you don't believe Jesus died to pay for your sins, or if you don't want Him to take your sins away, He won't. If you don't believe or don't take His gift, then when you die, you'll pay for your own sins, you'll receive your own punishment, even though Jesus already gave His life to pay for them. You'll be free to sin to your heart's content. He will never bother you if you don't want Him to.

If you do believe and you do want Him to take your sins, He will. He'll be able to pour His unconditional love over you because you are no longer kept apart from Him by sin. He will fill you with the Holy Spirit to guide you in your path through this life and on into the eternal life he bought for you with His blood. When He takes your sin away, you'll be able to see Him, hear Him, and feel Him and His love more clearly. You will begin to understand the enormity of who He is and what He's done for you. You won't feel comfortable when you sin because you'll realize what that sin cost Him and it will no longer seem so appealing. Following His commandments will be something you'll want to do, not only to show your thankfulness to Him, but it will make your life easier. You'll find that the more your life becomes centered on God and less centered on you, the better it becomes. It will be a privilege to love and worship Him.

God is the creator of the universe, His Son lived and died for us. He deserves our love, our awe, and our worship. He has mine more than willingly. Since I asked Him to take my sins away, my life has never been the same. He's always there for me; He's always there with me. He always will be. He loves me enough to die for me, cares for me, and has my best interests at heart. How could I not love Him and not want to worship Him? I'd rather have Him, than the 'freedom' to sin. And because of what He did for me, I'll be with Him eternally.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Well put, trammie. I couldn't agree more. Thank you to both trammie7 and ohsoso for their replies. I have finished my paper, and found things I could use. I found an article on-line that deals with the validity of the Bible. If anyone's interested, I casn provide the link. Also, if anyone wants to continue a discussion of these topics, I am willing to oblige. But if no one is interested, that's fine too.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] katrina-disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Okay, here's the link for the article.

http://www.everymaverick.com/bible.php

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] ohsoso 16 years ago

Thank you for this but in many ways I am none the wiser.

You say "I believe because I do". That does not help me understand.

How do you come to believe. How do you come to that place of acceptance.

Much as I believe in 'god' I do not neccessarily accept the christian percpective of god. I can not accept that there is a 'nothing' but that the god thing is far too great for anyone to comprehend.

Christianity, Islam, Judasim, Hinduism, Budism, perhaps are all all just attempts/concepts that try and make sense of our being.

How can I embrace a God that dictates an eternal existance of condemnation for simply not believing. I am sorry but I still do not understand the free will bit.

God says 'do what I say or I will punish you forever'. This is love?

[–] trammie7 16 years ago

Trina,

Glad you could finish your paper and, yes, I'd be interested in the link. (Although I think the Bible itself can make a pretty good arguement about its authenticity.)

ohsoso,

I'm sorry, but in order to attempt to give you an answer that might help you understand, I need to better understand your questions.

For example - in your first post you asked:

Do you believe in God because you BELIEVE or 'just in case'?

I answered the question as you asked it. You never asked WHY.

I'll be more than happy to answer that, but first I need you to clarify:

Much as I believe in 'god' I do not neccessarily accept the christian percpective of god. I can not accept that there is a 'nothing' but that the god thing is far too great for anyone to comprehend.

I want to be sure what you're asking, so if you could explain it better I'll try to respond.

[–] ultra_pro 16 years ago

Your probably all going to think im a troll or what not but my perception of the whole thing is that the church and the belief in an all mighty god who had a son to take away our sin is purely about the control and compliance of the human race. everyone seems to forget that the church imposed its religion on everyone no matter what they believed before it all came about. and if any women showed signs of being smart or free thinking then they were either burned or drowned. simply because they werent willing to swap their beliefs for the churchs. but hey, thats all old history.

What I mean is, and you can smite me down from on high for saying it but hey I'm going to hell anyway right? I'm sure that there was a wonderful guy who was born and who became a prophet and was seen as a healer, and it caused quite a stir which then kicked off various religions that founded their beliefs on his accomplishments and what he beleived. but he was human, born of a man and a woman. its one of those terrible sin thingies again but they had sex believe it or not. like all members of the human race do. and he was born. And he had a mrs etc etc, like normal humans do. Thats my take on the whole thing.

I'd like to think that there is something more to life out there than being born and then dying but I will not be force fed the stuff that gets beaten into people in church. I have my own free will, I'm born, I'm a human being, then I make my own choices, why should a child be forced to believe such nonsense? that he's full of sin without ever having even done anything. Bunch of bull i'm affraid.

I went to the church of England when I was young and then was forced into the roman catholic church for various reasons. I was a child, I was innocent and had never done anything that the church would classify as sinful as far as I'm concerned but I'm already condemned to hell anyway so who cares right? Obviously the church believes that everything is a sin if you dont believe in god but thats just the way it works. So anyway they went about trying to destroy my free will by telling me that everything good that happened in my life was down to some magical bloke on a clowd and his son who magically appeared way back when. Sorry but everything good that happened to me that I was born with or born into is thanks to my parents and thats that. I was brought up to be kind, generous, honest and I treat my friends and family and people in general in a way I would wanted to be treated in turn. But it had nothing to do with the church.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended anyone, I didnt intend this to be a bashing session its just my belief, I understand why people believe in god and if thats what you want and thats what gets you through life then fine. But those who have a strong free will and dont need hand holding are not sinners.

Amen

can you imagine your life without dreamcast?...........didnt think so!

[–] shananboyd 16 years ago

Hi Ultra Pro,
If you read through your gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) you will see that Jesus enemies were the religious leaders of the time (Pharisees) who indeed would attempt to control the populace using man made doctrine.
Luke 11:46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Mark 12:38-40 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39and have the most important seats in the church and the places of honor at banquets. 40They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
You can see by these verses and many others that controlling the people by perverting the word of God is sin and it will not go unpunished.

“everyone seems to forget that the church imposed its religion on everyone no matter what they believed before it all came about. and if any women showed signs of being smart or free thinking then they were either burned or drowned. simply because they werent willing to swap their beliefs for the churchs”

I will make the assumption here you are talking about the dark ages which were called “the dark ages” because the light (word of God) was not made available to the people. The Bible was only available in latin and only the priests could interpret it for the people. Of course you can see the problems this can cause as greedy sinful men made themselves rich through various perversions of the Word and kept their grasp on power the same way.
With reference to your second paragraph, Jesus was indeed born of a virgin as the Bible clearly states in the gospels. You have to use the bible as a benchmark for everything to do with the Christian faith as it is the word of God. You can not hold the Christian faith without believing the bible to be the unerring unchanging word of God.
Again for your third paragraph, Romans 3:23 states: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” This means that no one can live a sinless life- not even a child because we are born into sin, it is part of our makeup since the fall of Adam. I would really like to encourage you to read the bible, go through the gospels get an understanding of who God is, and how much He loves you. It is not his will for any to perish, that is why He sent Jesus to be the sacrifice for our sin, so we can be reconciled to Him. I can understand the difficulty being outside looking in as far as Christianity is concerned, but once you are inside looking out you can’t doubt the reality of it. You just have to take that step of faith. You sound like a decent chap and I wish you well in your search for the truth.

[–] ultra_pro 16 years ago

lol, ok, well I believe I explained that I was on the inside looking out when I went to church for more than 10 years. And I will never buy into the stuff about children being born with sin, thats just rubbish. people arent born with sin just because some fictional man at the "dawn of time" made the wrong choice, they are born with the ability to decide what they want to do with their lives, not because someone made it that way as some sick joke so that he could sit there and say, "i've given you free will however, if you use it in a way I disagree with then you are evil and will go to hell" its basically like giving someone a trick question that has no right answer. As you said, "You can not hold the Christian faith without believing the bible to be the unerring unchanging word of God. "
And as I said, I dont. Simple as that. I'm sorry but none of it holds any kind of logic for me and theres no need for it in my life.

And the Dark ages, as you put it, were dark purely because people were killed all over because they didnt bow to the "word of god" they believed what they wanted, believed in nature, in spirits etc etc and didnt need to go to church to have faith, and it was all equal, ie: male deieties (i apologise for spelling) werent the only ones being worshipped. Then along comes the church and pow, fall in line or your dead, think outside the box and your dead.

I appreciate your very kind response and the fact that you didnt rip into me for disagreeing with you, its rare to have a conversation on these boards with someone who is able to do that. Again, I apologise if anything I've said gives the impression that I am annoyed or anything, I just have my own opinion dont need the church or the bible to make me feel like theres a point to my life.

Cheers

can you imagine your life without dreamcast?...........didnt think so!

[–] trammie7 16 years ago

My perception is a bit different - man's arrogance. That was no 'simple choice' Adam (the mythical man) made all those millennia ago. God created Adam, a perfect being, to share with Him all the things He'd made. But that wasn't good enough for Adam. He didn't want to be WITH God - he wanted to BE a god. It was that 'simple choice' that brought all the darkness, decay, and death into the world. That's what sin does - it darkens and destroys. Everyone born after Adam wasn't 'born with sin', they were given the sin NATURE they inherited from their forefather - a predilection to sin.

In spite of Adam's choice, God still loved the beings He'd created. He loved them enough to send prophets a thousand years ahead of time to write of the One who would come to take away sin from the world. (Which are found in what we call the Bible.) Then He loved us enough to send the Son of God to fulfill every single prophesy foretold, which said God in the form of man would take all that sin, and He would die for us. And He did exactly that.

But because of man's arrogance God said He'd make the wise foolish and the foolish wise. That man, in his arrogance, wouldn't see the truth because he would be blinded by his own wisdom. (That would be creation vs evolution: the choice between a supreme being or everything in this world developing out of a primordial soup.)

God said only those who sought Him would find Him.

Your concern about children? In Matthew 18 Jesus was asked, 'Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?' He called a child to Him and said: (Mt 18:3-4) ... "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever shall humble himself as this little child , the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Blessed be the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Free will? It's all a matter of free will. You can die of your own free will with God (believing in Him) or without God (not believing in Him). Since I believe He created me, I believe He died so that I might live - eternally, with Him, in heaven.

You're more than welcome to your own choice, just thought I'd explain mine.

Edited to add:
Call it a crutch, but if the Supreme Being of the universe is offering to give me a hand up (not to mention shedding his blood for me) in this life and the next - I'm taking it.

[–] katrina-disneyfanatic 16 years ago

"I appreciate your very kind response and the fact that you didnt rip into me for disagreeing with you, its rare to have a conversation on these boards with someone who is able to do that. Again, I apologise if anything I've said gives the impression that I am annoyed or anything, I just have my own opinion dont need the church or the bible to make me feel like theres a point to my life."
-ultra_pro

I started this thread for help with my homework, and from the beginning I made it clear that it was meant to be a rational discussion, and said I would continue with this post only if it remained a discussion and not a heated argument, and I make sure I myslef do not do any name-calling or intentionally insult someone. Be assured, that you do not insult me by stating your objections. If anything, your explanations intrigue me. Now I'll see if I can try to explain some of the things you have said.

First, you mention Christians imposing their beliefs on others. I will not deny that this is true. I do not agree with the way they tried to "save others." Yes, it is a responsibility for Christians to share their faith, but not through force. In contrast, it should be by explaining what we believe. And yes, it's true that throughout history, the opinions of women did not matter, and were not regarded as important. And there are instaances where some women were believed to be taking a little too much free reign, and were treated unkindly (to put it mildly).

Next you relate how you came to join the Roman Catholic Church. I'm sorry that you were forced to join. From what you've said in your post, it does not sound like what they were trying to teach you is Biblically based. I do not believe that God controls everything that happens (it goes back to free will). I believe He can but He chooses not to intervene in some circumstances because we have free will, and He allows us to choose to do things for ourselves. However, I do believe He does sometimes intervene in events when we ask Him to (such as praying for someone), and that He can make good things come out of a bad situation. And sin is sin; it does not matter if a person is a believer or not. Obviously, what a child does wrong and what an adult does wrong are on different levels, but they can both still be held accountable.

In your next post, you talk about the concept of people being born into sin, and it being a direct result of Adam's wrong choice in the Garden of Eden; also about the Dark Ages, and other people having their own deities, and how the Church simply told them they were wrong, and that they had to worship the Christian God. As far as being born into sin, think about this: do you have to teach a child to what's wrong? However, it's not Adam and Eve's fault that people are still sinning today. If Adam and Eve hadn't been the first to disobey, someone else would have. However, because they did indeed disoby (like trammie said), their children and therefore all of their descendents were born with that sinful human nature.

It does not seem at all like you're ragging on Christian beliefs, but rather expressing your confusion over some of them. So I hope my explanations help you to understand better.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] trammie7 16 years ago

Trina is right, forgive me, UltraPro, if my tone sounded harsh, it was and it shouldn't have been. As she said, the discussion wasn't meant to be inflammatory. She saw your confusion, I saw only your stronger reactions to things on which I have quite a different veiw than your own. I apologize for not answering in a more helpful manner.

[–] katrina-disneyfanatic 16 years ago

"How do you come to believe. How do you come to that place of acceptance."
-ohsoso

Well, I was raised in a Christian home, so I grew up knowing the accounts contained in the Bible. I made the decision to accept Christ as my Savior when I was in about second grade. As I've grown older, I've grown in that faith. I went through a small rebellious phase when I was in about fifth to sixth grade, where I didn't pay attention in church and I never really did read my Bible very much growing up. I guess you could say I was just barely hanging on to my faith. When I really started living for Christ though was in middle school and high school. I started reading my Bible a lot more, and I started praying more often. Now I just finished my sophomore year of college, and I joined a Bible study at the beginning of the year, which has been really good. I've come to understand a lot more about Jesus, and what it looks like to live for Him.

"How can I embrace a God that dictates an eternal existance of condemnation for simply not believing. I am sorry but I still do not understand the free will bit. God says 'do what I say or I will punish you forever'. This is love?"

Heaven and hell have existed since the beginning of time. God created people because He wanted someone to love who could love Him back. He created us with free will because He wants it to be our choice. So becuase of our free will, it is possible to have a relationship with God, and listen to Him, and do what He would like us to do. However, it also possible that Satan makes it look like not doing what God would like us to do would be a better choice. Because we are in fact human, we sometimes do say no to God when He asks us to do something. The fact is, we are not perfect. But God is; He is perfect and holy, and because He is such, He cannot allow for imperfect beings to be in His presence. The only other alternative to eternal life is eternal death. But because He loves us, and does not want to spend eternity apart from us, His son came into the world as a baby. He was just like any other baby--he cried, he learned to talk and walk. But He also lived a completely perfect life. He never did a single thing wrong. And He took everyone's sin upon Himself and died on the cross in our place. But then He rose from the dead. He appeared to the apostles (at the same time), and to Mary Magdalene, and to over 300 people (also all at the same time--the 300). He then ascended into Heaven, where He still remains. So, to accept God's gift of eternal life, we must acknowledge the sacrfice Jesus made for us, and ask Him to become our personal Savior.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

[–] takeanumbertobeme-1 16 years ago

I can understand how "I believe because I do" does not help you understand. It sounds rather obtuse doesn't it?

I am a believer, but it is more than just believing. Let me explain by telling a bit of my story. I was raised in a Christian home, my father was a youth pastor until I turned eight then he became a senior pastor. I always believed that God was real and had even seen miracles done (ex. I saw a person walk out of a wheelchair they were confined to for ten years). But when I became a teenager I started to have doubts. Why would I believe in a God that wouldn't allow my friends go into heaven simply if they deny Him? Like you said, "Is that love?"

When I turned sixteen, I started dating a boy. Unfortunetly this boy turned into a nightmare and proceeded to abuse me in ways I never thought possible. That when the rubber met the road. I felt dirty, fit only to be used, trash, ugly and many more things. In a nutshell I felt unworthy to be anything. One morning in the summer however, at 5 am I felt an inexplicable urge to go out and sit on a hill to watch the sunrise. Since I couldn't sleep anyway, I went. When I got there, I heard words in my heart. They were not said in a human voice but I heard them nevertheless. They said, "I love you. Return to me." Instantly I knew it was Jesus. I hurled out every hurt and accusation at Him: Why did you let him do this to me? Where is your mercy? Why didn't you stop this? After a while I realized these were the consequences of my actions. God didn't stop him because of Free Will. My free will to turn my back on what I knew what was right and the boy's free will to do what he wanted to.
But at that place I realized I did what was wrong and repented. It was a new day, joy was in the morning.

Was my life perfect after this encounter? No. Did God take away the consequences of my actions? No. But He certainly suffered with me.

(Sorry this is so long)

My point is this: You come to that place of believing by choice. Only God can change a heart and He's already trying to show you that He is real. The only way to get to Him is by accepting the gift of grace that Jesus Christ has offered: his life for yours. It is not simple belief that is the difference between life and death. It is the choice you make. Jesus said "I am THE way,truth and the light. NO ONE gets to the Father except through me." There is no formula or right way to pray to encounter God. Simply do what your heart tells you: Seek Jesus through prayer (I'm not talking about just kneeling and folded handed)just take a walk outside or a beach and just have a conversation with Him. I'm sure He would be glad to talk to you.

God is not a dicator. He loves you very much. Whether you believe in Him or not is your choice. Even the demons believe in God. It's the choice whether your heart condition will be changed to follow God will make the difference.
Jesus never said "Follow these rules" He said "Follow me". If you follow His example and truly seek him with your heart, you will find Him.

[–] divinedevotion 16 years ago

Ohsoso, you may never read this, but I felt like I should respond. The world frequently tells Christians that by following God, we are missing out on being "free" and living 'the life', but I beg to differ. Living the Christian life makes people wonder what YOU'VE got, instead of the other way around, if it's taken seriously/done correctly/ lived with purpose. I urge you to find a copy of the Message Bible by Eugene Peterson. It's the complete Christian bible put into everyday modern language, which makes it really easy to read and understand.
God doesn't 'dictate' an eternal existence of condemnation. That's just how the world works. You wouldn't say, "Well, I just refuse to believe that if I jump off this building, I'll splatter on the ground," because that's the law of gravity. That's just how it works.
The free will comes into play when you see that God made us, created us to be his family, just like we create our children. We love our children, so we make rules for them to follow so that they don't become horrible people, because we want to see them grow up well and do great things. We created them, and want/need them to return our love. :) Just like a parent, God laid down rules for us, and there are consequences when the rules are broken or ignored. Some people say that there are too many rules in this world/in the bible, and that to be truly free, we have to be free of rules. I believe we have all seen the by-products of parenting styles where they just let their kids run free. Does 'spoiled brat' ring a bell? Does the United States of America (a 'free' country) let all its citizens run around and do whatever they want? No, they are given the free will to do what they want, when they want, within a set standard of rules. When we break or ignore these rules, there are consequences. It's a fact of life. When I remember that God created everything, it's remarkable to realize that even those who are unaware of His existence are living by rules of the universe that He, himself, made.
I hope this gives you a few more ideas to ponder. :) If you wanna talk more, you can reply to b3b34ut1ful-imdb@yahoo . com. Have a beautiful day! :)

[–] sguphx 16 years ago

Think of Heaven as an Operating Room. It must remain sterile or the germs will contaminate all in the room. Even the slightest bit of contamination will grow and render the entire room unsterilized and put the patient at great, even grave risk. Heaven must remain sterile of ALL unrighteousness, because sin will grow and spread and contaminate that which was once pure, or sterile, thereby killing off all that is Eternal and Godly. That is why God cannot allow even the slightest of sin. Would you want to be undergoing open heart surgery in an Operating Room that is contaminate?

[–] artBart 16 years ago

"Now, I do not want this to turn into a bitter argument, just a rational discussion."

I expect you probably were sincere in saying that, but there can't be truly rational discussion on a religious topic that has any participant accepting the mythology as fact. The bible contains some historical content, but the supernatural elements are wholly unsupported by any evidence whatsoever and are in many cases starkly contrasted against tangible evidence. For example, creation of man from dust by means of magic versus an evolution from earlier life forms as can be deduced from the fossil record, a complete flooding of the Earth by rain when the geological record reveals no such event, etc.

Believing in something that is lacking evidence is questionable already. Believing in something despite overwhelming evidence against it is irrational.

[–] divinedevotion 16 years ago

The geological record DOES reveal that the entire earth was underwater at some point. There was a recent study done in Europe in the last few years that showed this very fact to be true. They seemed incredulous, but all I could think was 'Duh, it's right there in the bible!' Oklahoma - nearly the center of America - was at one time underwater. It makes perfect sense. :)

[–] nurst 14 years ago

The geological record DOES reveal that the entire earth was underwater at some point.

Uhm, no it doesn't. Certainly not all at the same time. Of course, there have been seas covering some area of continents at one point or another over millions of years, as the continents moved and changed shape but there is no evidence that there ever was a globally encompassing flood. Not even close. Sorry!

There was a recent study done in Europe in the last few years that showed this very fact to be true.

Don't think so. Not outside of garbage-filled creationist sites like "Answers in Genesis".

They seemed incredulous, but all I could think was 'Duh, it's right there in the bible!' Oklahoma - nearly the center of America - was at one time underwater. It makes perfect sense. :)

Even if that were the case it would not prove the Bible true one bit. The flood story was plagiarized by the men who wrote The Bible. They borrowed it from the much earlier Mesopotamian flood story told in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

[–] louizae 16 years ago

I realise that a lot of people need to 'believe' in something greater than theirselves, which is why, for so many, religion has controlled lives.

I'm not going to start to behave like a troll - there are enough of them on this site already - but each religion has always been about controlling the populace. You say you were studying religion - did you study the beginnings of Christianity?

I'm not a theologist, and I'm also not going to start ranting (everyone has the right to believe whatever they like - I agree with you there!), but did you know that both Islam and Judiasm began with the same roots? Then along came Christianity, born out of Judaism, yet everyone seems to always forget that.

England used to be a Celtic country, like most of Europe. We had our own crosses used at burial sites, long before Christianity came up with the idea of their Jesus Christ dying on a cross. We also had our own holy trinity - maiden, mother, crone. We also celebrated the seasons, and nature and like many others at the time, got the dates wrong (the shortest day in December, for example, was never the 25th, but no one is perfect!). Have you ever looked into the early beginnings of Christianity? How, to make it accepted in each culture, it took things from that culture (our crosses, our dates), and turned them into their own? How Easter became the re-birth of said Jesus Christ, when it originally used to be about re-birth of the land? Coincedence? Nope. It was just easier to use things from the other religions. Take a look at the other religions of the world - you will see many examples of this. Our maiden, mother, crone became son, holy spirit, god. Our re-birth of the God through the Goddess became the re-birth of a Jesus Christ. No, I can not accept Christianity, and do not accept the early Celtic religion either. Both told stories of how we came about, and both are wrong. We were not created by some all supreme being. But Christianity was not the only one to take things from each religin to become accepted - Judaism and Islam did the same.

The bible is a lovely story, but it is unbending, and for the 21st century, even more irrelvant. The bible was perfect for a time when miracles were needed, but now this is done by medical advances. Medicine was a dangerous business once upon a time, and many of our old cures were lost. Why? Because the priests etc. interpreted them as witchcraft. How many wisemen/women were lost because the bible, when interpreted in a certain why, said it was wrong? It was only wrong because Christianity helped, mostly in mainland Europe and America, to breed ignorance. They kept us from remembering the old ways. At one point, they even barred sex within marriage. Religion also breeds taboos, many of which are still in place today due to fear and ignorance (for example, how many people can still not understand why others are gay? Even atheists have a problem with this, but because of what the church taught long before they were born. And that women are the weaker sex, all because of Gensis. Women were once far more powerful than men, because they had the ability to give birth, but many cultures will not treat women with equality. And before anyone corrects me, no, not all of them are Christian. But they are still ruled by a religion, and I am bringing them all into account). No, until Christianity/Judaism/Islam etc. stand up and accept that they must change to reflect the change in humanity, then religion has no place in my heart. I once went to church, because our brownie meetings were held in a church hall. Didn't sway me one bit. My headteacher at my primary school tried to preach to us, still nothing. With everything I went through at school, I needed a god. One didn't make itself present. Plus, I didn't grow up in a Christian household, and my parents never discussed their 'beliefs', if they had any. So my freewill wasn't to find god, but to realise the importance of religion for others, and why they need it. I'm not happy, but finding religion won't make me happy and secure. Just knowing that I have good friends in this world is enough.

Right, enough of this essay. I hope I haven't come across as rude, although I'm sure someone reading this will mis-interpret it (just as many have done with the bible - how can you prove you're even reading the correct version?). I think this kind of discussion might be too early for the imdb, but I'm glad to see that the trolls have stayed away. I hope you got a good mark for your paper, trina, and that you're doing well in college. But please, question your religion every once in a while. Its the only way to make sure you're not just blindly following your heart. I am happy to answer any questions you have of this atheist.

[–] divinedevotion 16 years ago

First of all, I just want to say, humans are human, and we all make mistakes. The bible is wrongly interpreted a lot, and that's where you come to sex being barred even from marriage. A lot of people take bits and pieces of the bible and ignore other parts. Like Song of Solomon, for example, is an explicit love song between a man and his wife on their wedding night, but written in such a way that a child could read it, and never realize what is going on. It glorifies the sex that God created, and the context he created it for (marriage).
The bible is not irrelevant. Many of its truths are used by billion dollar companies as the basis for their integrity practices, society uses the ten commandments as general rules and laws, everyone could learn a lot from the bible by applying its priciples. The world would be a much better place if you treated your friends (and enemies) as you would want to be treated instead of lashing back when something bad happens to you. Where does that get either of you? Nowhere.
Christianity also does not say that women are the weaker sex. The bible says that God created Eve out of Adam's rib, out of his SIDE. Not from his toe, which would put her beneath him, or from his head, which would put her above him, but from his SIDE, to be his companion, to complete him. Some places in the bible where it says the woman should not speak in church, and such, were meant as a warning when many of the newly-converted women would resort to making loud noises during the service, which was them reverting back to their old paganistic ways. It was just a reminder that them doing that was a pagan ritual and not a part of who they were anymore. As a part of us being human and taking it out of context, the way things were back then, we misconstrue the truth to be something else. Back when the bible was written, women were considered low in society, but Jesus treated them always as equals. He helped them when others wouldn't, just like he did with all the social classes and social statuses. You have to take the bible, and, while putting it in a social/historical context, truly try to see how and why things were written as they were.

[–] movieguy592 14 years ago

I'll give my input even though this is two years old. I would take an educated guess that most christians would consider me to be a non-christian. Which is fine, I'm not asking anyone to change what they believe, but based on events that have happen in my life, I have a different take on Christianity and the bible (a sensitive subject that sparks arguments) Believe me arguments is not my intention. Just a different perspective.

I grew up Catholic, and was confirmed. I am no longer "catholic" in the sense that I do not regularly attend mass. However, while a lot of christians say that I am not "christian" in its traditional sense or majority belief, I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with them.

I mean, my reason I do not go to church are a number of reasons. The main one being was I found myself confused, and just "going through the motions" so to speak. This occured after I had been confirmed. And believe me, during confirmation, which happened in High School during my time, I really thought I was doing what God wanted me to do. But you know when a light bulb suddenly flickers on, and you have a recollection? I guess some call it an epiphany. Well, at church I realized that I wasn't here for me, I was here because all my life I had been told to go.

But a lot of the people I talk to that are "christian" have some skewed vision in their head that just because someone is not "christian" in the traiditional sense that they are an evil person. Now, I know not all christians are like this, and I've met many that understand where I'm coming from.

Now I don't go running out murdering people, or stealing or robbing, or cheating or any of that stuff. I choose to believe in God in my own way and through events that have happened that want God wants or if you prefer my term "Higher Power." I'm more spiritual than anything, but I'm still confused and sometimes appalled that there's a misconception of what "christianity" is.

My big ticking point is when someone was says "I'm Christian" and its like they're better than those that are not. I've met people who say "Do you go to church? Are you a Christian?" And when I say "I'm spritiual" They give me daunting looks, like I've just killed one of their relatives.

It's not Christianity, to me it's religion in general. My belief is that God wants FAITH and Belief in him, not Belief in a specific religion that tells you what is right.

But religion can also be great. It's helped people, and that's fantastic, but I feel its been skewed a bit by society.

I'll touch on the bible really quickly, and try to be as sensitive as possible. My whole thought is that you can't take any book as complete truth. In every book there are misprints and I feel the bible is no different. I'm not saying its untrue, I'm just saying that taking it word for word, at least for me, its a bit like that game you play as a kid "telephone" You know the one where you start out in a circle or line and you are given a phrase or word to say and you pass to the person on your right. By the time it gets back to the original person or the last person, its usually exaggerated or misinterpreted. I mean those who wrote the bible were transcribing old text and notes: misinterpretations are to be expected.

So when someone asks me if I'm a Christian, I say "I'm spiritual" and either leave it at that or if they wish explain why. But I think being a "Christian" by its standard acceptance is again skewed. Believe me I still believe quite a bit of the Catholicism that I was raised with, but since I've stopped going to church, I have become a better person, and a burden has been lifted along with being closer to God or a Higher Power.

I don't expect nor want everyone to agree or disagree, just a different perspective. However I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have.