Is this a christian movie?


I would like to know if this is a spiritual
movie, or if it's just a christian one?

I love seeing movies with spiritual themes,
as long as they're not coming from a christian
(or muslim) viewpoint. People in those two
religions seem to think that their religion
is the only "right" one so they don't usually
have much respect for other religions and
spiritual paths, such as Taoism and Hinduism
and Wicca and Asatru. Instead of being willing
to learn from other religions they tend to run
around trying to "convert" everyone to theirs,
which seems rude and disrespectful to me.

(Sorry, I don't mean to be bashing anyone's
religion here; I'm just explaining why I don't
like it when they bash mine, or other people's.)

Anyway, I can't tell if this is truly a spiritual film,
or if it's just a christian film. Some of the reviews
sound one way, and some sound the other way.

Can someone just answer this simple question?
(Without preaching at us and trying to convert us
and tell us about Jesus or Allah, yada, yada, etc.)

I just want to figure out whether to go see this movie.

Thanks,
- D.

PS: I'm not Jewish, but it seems to me that many
monotheists could learn a valuable lesson from the
Jews, namely: Keep your religion to yourself,
and don't go trying to push it on everybody else.

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OK, I just checked at the official movie website,
and also at Rotten Tomatoes, and apparently this
*is* a christian movie. Oh well, so disappointing.

Also interesting that they don't bother making
that very clear unless you actually go to
their website. Maybe they're hoping to hook
people like me, who would not go and watch
a christian movie unless they didn't know
that's what it was. Evangelists just love a
captive audience, because they know most
people would rather just walk away from
what they're pushing.

Anyway, I got plenty of Jesus preached at me
when I was young, and now I'm much happier in
another religion. If I ever get an urge to get
Jesus preached at me again, I'm sure I won't
have any trouble finding people who do that.
I don't see why I would go see a movie in a
theater for that. I'll give this one a pass.

Given that the movie was about Native American
culture, in part, I was hoping that it would be
more about Native American religions and spirituality.
There were hundreds of vibrant and beautiful pagan
religions followed by the indigenous people of the
Americas, before the Europeans invaded and started
forcing them to convert to christianity or die.
(Kind of like the Islamic jihad militants who feel
justified in beheading people if they won't convert
to Islam and accept Allah as the only god.)

Why can't these people just relax, and enjoy all
the wonderful religious diversity out there? Maybe
there's a good reason there are so many different
spiritual paths on this planet: because all humans
are unique individuals, so our souls will each be
drawn to commune with the Gods in different ways.
Simple idea, yes?

For some alternative spiritual movies out now,
let me recommend "The Fountain" and/or the amazing
movie "Pan's Labyrinth" instead. "Peaceful Warrior"
was great too, but it's gone from theaters now.
"The Celestine Prophecy" was a little hokey, but
the basic message they were conveying was good.

Hopefully we'll start seeing more spiritual movies,
that reflect a broader religious perspective.









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[deleted]

I agree. Most Christian movies aren't really meant to be preachy. Take the recent thriller "Three"...made in full by Christians, but with little, if any, Christian evangelicalism.

In my opinion, the OP is being kind of hypocritical in stereotyping the industry. All stereotypes hold some truth, but it's wrong to generalize the millions of artists and people that may be a part of one religion.

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You'll have to remember that we all operate from within the framework of our own opinions or attitudes about the reality of life.

Obviously, you and many other people tend to see those street and television evangelists as pushy, close-minded and rather naive.

It is, of course, common sense that while many of these people (and many Christians and Muslims in general) may appear to shut out all other ideas and concepts about God and religion, it is also true that a sizable portion of the adherents of both groups has taken extensive time to learn about other religions and makes an active step to respect those of other faiths.

A single bad experience can sour someones perception for a lifetime. That seems to be the case with you, whatever the complications of your religious background may be. Unfortunately, it seems that you have had many more than one bad experience.

However, instead of turning evangelists into villains, it would be better to release your baggage and view things from their perspective.

To them, the religion which they have found is like the removal of a shroud over our perceptions, as a light which permeates all corners of the room. To them, it may seem to be an incomparable gift of grace to receive such freedom from their previous existence in spiritual darkness (not darkness in the evil sense, but darkness in the sense that the true path has been hidden from them).

Whether or not you agree with their beliefs, you should realize that, in their opinion, they are trying to share a gift which changed their life for the better.
Of course, they might be presenting it incorrectly.
I'm surprised that one young guy thought he would leave some sort of impression on my Jewish friends by coming up to us outside of a nightclub and speaking in a near-stutter about what happens after we die. Nice fellow, and I made sure I didn't alienate him like my friends did.

I apologize for the preachy habits of Christian media, sometimes working a message to the point of total corniness, and also for the dramatic, fire-and-brimstone evangelists, who use scare tactics rather than logic and earnest conversation.

I wish there were more people who could spread the message without the gimmicky style. I mean, bless them for their commitment, but if all that's gained is enmity from non-Christians, what is the point?

Anyway, I had been agnostic for quite some time, and studied things like Buddhism since I was young, as my father is essentially an expert in Eastern Culture.
I've spent a lot of time reading into other religions, and for a time, considered Theology as my major. I'd never found Pagan religions interesting, as the theology of them is less philosophical and symbolic and more Soap-Operatic.
Anyway, I became Greek Orthodox a short while ago, and it's interesting to find a Christianity which is essentially unfamiliar to any of the Western theology we're all so used to, in the Americas and Western Europe.

The pagans might be right in the end, or the Dharmists... but this is just my view of the right belief, the 'orthodoxy'.

Just an opinion about the whole thing.

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Very well said...........

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However, instead of turning evangelists into villains, it would be better to release your baggage and view things from their perspective.

To them, the religion which they have found is like the removal of a shroud over our perceptions, as a light which permeates all corners of the room. To them, it may seem to be an incomparable gift of grace to receive such freedom from their previous existence in spiritual darkness (not darkness in the evil sense, but darkness in the sense that the true path has been hidden from them).

Whether or not you agree with their beliefs, you should realize that, in their opinion, they are trying to share a gift which changed their life for the better.


Beautiful and accurate description of how Christians feel, chokesamfreedman. I do have a correction, though. Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship. :o)

I also agree that Delia should look at things from the perspective of Christians. She has no idea how difficult it can be for a Christian to share his or her faith, especially when the person they're sharing their faith with could react like Delia. I, myself, find it extremely difficult to share my faith with someone in a face-to-face encounter. You wouldn't know it, going by my tendency to be outspoken on IMDB, but I am actually very shy around people I don't know. That is why I prefer to share my faith either with a group of fellow believers, or through the internet.

It's a shame that Delia wants to condemn all Christians for the poor behavior of a few. It seems that she's not willing to practice the same open-mindedness and tolerance that she wants the rest of us to practice.

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I totally understand what you're saying about Christians being pushy and always trying to convert you. But try to see it their way; they honestly believe that they have the truth about life (and who says they don't?) and of course they want to tell others. If you knew for absolutely certain that there was going to be a terrorist attack on your city, you would want to let some people know about it. Just because they don't believe you and think you're annoying doesn't mean what you're saying is any less true.

Too often we're all concerened about what feels good and what we're comfortable in, but we should be focussing on what is actually the truth.

Diversity is great, and I agree that Christians should try to understand different cultures more, but in the end if it's a choice between coming across as annoying but possiby saving somebody from hell, or being nice and politically correct but damning someone for eternity, I'll go with saving people.

I'm not saying I agree with everything they do, but THEY believe it is right and we shoudld try and look at their heart, which is usually in the right place. Christians and Muslims should be admired for their courage in standing up for what they believe in. Nobody criticises pro-choice advocates, or evolutionists for teaching their views. In fact their opinions and theories are integrated into schools, TV and pretty much every aspect of society. Why shouldn't religion have a fair say too? There is no more proof for evolution than there is for intelligent design, although there are lots of contradictions and impossibilities. If anybody actually cares I can quite easily list a whole heap. Let's give Christians and Muslims the respect they deserve. They are the only ones brave enough, and dedicated enough, to try and do somehitng to fix this messed up world.

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[deleted]

>>Well, aren't you quite the hero/ine. Tell me, do you find that people go out of their way to avoid you? Because, if somebody was pushing their religion on me, I sure would! <<

Define "pushing." I find that some people consider the mere mention of your personal religious beliefs as "ramming it down their throats." If that's the case, then why do they come on message boards and ram their opinions about proselytizing down people's throats? That's because we can't force ideas on others. If you don't want to agree with me, don't. But I'm free to tell you how I feel and think about things. If you don't like it, go talk to/read from someone who think likes exactly like you.

Christians are commanded by the messiah of their religion, and by all its principal founders, to tell everyone in the world about his message. To disobey this command is morally wrong for them. If they don't really believe this then maybe they don't really believe their religion. So if you are offended by an honestly heartfelt discussion of their beliefs, what you have a problem with is their messiah and their religion. Don't patronise it by saying the messengers all suck.

Another thing: As the poster stated, if you don't like him/her, they couldn't care less. They're going to fulfill their responsibility to tell you. Whether they get avoided by others or you is beside the point for them.

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In reply to Brighidsgirl: If you like to enter into a debate, the usual way is to address the point of discussion, not attack the debators. You may not like thier view, but to attack thier character isn't going to help. If you'd like to be a cynic, please be a cynic in your own time and don't inturrupt an interesting debate.

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This isn't a debate. This is a discussion about the movie "The Last Sin Eater".

I am an atheist and I found the movie to be sweet as it wasn't just about the myths of Jesus and other "sin eaters" as it was about finding out that you're not alone with the guilt and regrets that you carry.
One little girl thought she had done the worst thing imaginable, only to find out that the whole town [cove] she lived in, had in the past, done what most of us would consider much, much worse.
Everyone has skeletons. It's all about your personal redemption from them--which ever path that is.
While it definitely has religious overtones (even the name "sin eater" carries the mythological ideation of human "sinfulness"--a derivation of the word sinister) it didn't "Jesus" me to death.

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I am an atheist and I found the movie to be sweet as it wasn't just about the myths of Jesus and other "sin eaters" as it was about finding out that you're not alone with the guilt and regrets that you carry


Jesus isn't a myth, juxtapose70. Historical documents have made it clear that He really did exist.

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Jesus isn't a myth, juxtapose70. Historical documents have made it clear that He really did exist.


No, they have not. There are NO historical documents proving Jesus existed that haven't been debunked or proven to be hearsay.

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Jesus isn't a myth, juxtapose70. Historical documents have made it clear that He really did exist.


No they haven't. All those documents have been proven unreliable or forgeries.
<p>
Even if Jesus did exist, the parts about him being divine, etc are based on a dozen earlier similar myths about messiahs, miracle workers and sons of god.
<p>
Jesus was just a man. Real Gods don't have or need sons and they certainly don't need to murder them in horrible, primitive blood sacrifices to fix their screwups.

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Who debunked the historical documents about Jesus, nurst? Dan Brown wannabe's?

Believe what you want, nurst. The fact that the lives of countless people have been changed when those people put their faith in Jesus Christ, proves to me that He is real. I'm a Christian, and my life has been changed for the better. That's enough evidence for me.

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Who debunked the historical documents about Jesus, nurst? Dan Brown wannabe's?


No, silly little people called educated historians and scholars. Real ones that is, not those who cowtow to Christian apologists and historic revisionists.

Oh and anyone's life can be changed if they put their "faith" in any figurehead. People's lives are changed daily by Brahma, Vishnu and Buddha and I'm sure millions of lives were changed by Zeus, Aphrodite, Mars and Odin. Not to mention the dozen "saviors" and "sons of god" the Jesus myth was based upon.

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I'm sorry you are turned off by the prospect of a "Christian" movie.
I do want to address one thing you said, and it has nothing to do with whether or not this story is preachy or not.

You said there was a little about native american culture in this film.
I don't know where you got that idea; I read this book before I saw the movie and there is almost NO native american culture in the entire story. If there is any culture explored, it's celtic culture and the idea of a scape-goat/sin-eater. I'm sorry you got your hopes up for a movie about native american cultures when this movie, this story had none of that.

In the meantime, I hope you were able to find a movie you enjoyed.

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If you hate Christians so much, then I suggest you stop visiting this board. It is, after all, a Christian movie. If you want to rant and rave about the "evils" of Christianity, you can always find an anti-Christian message board. There are plenty out there.

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Good grief, who's preaching?

Maybe you should just stop talking for a minute, and try listening instead... even if it's a Christian movie, it may have something to teach you... unless you already know everything there is to know, that is...

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I'll have to remember to start checking Rotten Tomato and IMDB. I thought the film was ok, not bad, not great, but, the religious tone of the film was quite a bit more than what I was looking for.

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(Sorry, I don't mean to be bashing anyone's religion here; I'm just explaining why I don't like it when they bash mine, or other people's.)

the Europeans invaded and started
forcing them to convert to christianity or die.

Why can't these people just relax, and enjoy all
the wonderful religious diversity out there?

Hopefully we'll start seeing more spiritual movies,
that reflect a broader religious perspective.



You don't mean to bash anyone's religion BUT YOU just did THREE TIMES. You bashed my GOD. The God of Abraham, Moses, Job, and Our Father in Heaven.

Any movie directed by Michael Landon Jr, should be a Christian Movie. Any movie produced by Pureflix and Kendrix Brother should be Christian Movies.

When you get tired of worshipping plants and those kind of nature things that cannot protect, give blessings, or care for you: I would recommend First Baptist Church or a Southern Baptist Church. I would NEVER recommend a Catholic Church because the Pope gave orders to the Priests to tell their Churches/Parishes to stop reading their bibles! This isn't right because that is how we get our instruction from God Almighty, how to live holy lives. I'm NOT just saying this to you BUT to everyone who reads this post.









"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.......... 1 Corinthians 1:18

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THE LAST SIN EATER is boldly Christian. Where END OF THE SPEAR toned down the Christian testimony of the missionaries martyred in the Amazon jungle, THE LAST SIN EATER boldly proclaims the Biblical truths that can change a community of killers into loving saints. It is not shy about proclaiming the name of “Jesus.” At the same time, it is not preachy. The Gospel is proclaimed quickly and clearly, first is words, then in action.

There are a few slow spots and some brief special effects appear to use methods out of the 1960s, but the acting is excellent, the story compelling and the movie’s overall appearance first rate.

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I think maybe if you have a problem with the movie being christian is because you are not tolerent too.
I am a christian and I have a huge respect for other religions and atheists as well.. it's your choice. you are living in a free world. Don't mix christianity with catholicism. Everytime I hear those comments it's always from people who don't even read the Bible or met real christians. I have the right to share my beliefs as much as you share yours.. what are you afraid of? That Jesus explode onto your face? c'mon...

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THE LAST SIN EATER boldly proclaims the Biblical truths that can change a community of killers into loving saints


Of course, history clearly shows us that the opposite is closer to the truth.

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I actually watched this movie with a friend of mine who is a Sikh, he found the movie to have a great message and didn't find it to be "pushy". I actually think that my Sikh friend enjoyed this film a lot more than me. One just needs to be open minded, watching a movie that is Christian or of any other religion should be seen as a way to learn about other cultures. I personally am Catholic but I have friends of all kinds of religions and creeds we all listen and share about each other's beliefs. No one needs to be right thats one's own decision but there are many things that can be learned by listening.

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I went to see this movie because I have seen the main actress in a few TV episodes and I thought she was great. Anyway, this movie is defintely Christian, but not very "change to our religion NOW" ish. It's pretty good. In fact, ChristianityToday. com gave it only an okay review, and that site reviews the religious aspects, not necessarily the movie as a whole, so I wouls go see it. The actors are so great in it.

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
Can't wait!!
PROUD RENThead

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I'm Catholic, but this movie was just as accesible to me as the Protestant audience it was aimed at. It was excellent and not pushy. Whoever started this thread: Has it occurred to you that you can be Christian AND spiritual simultaneously? Some of the most spiritual people I know are Christians, others are Jews, even atheists. No one has a monopoly on spirituality.

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I completely agree with most of those above me, I loved the Last Sin Eater. I had no idea what it was when I walked into the theatre, my friend wanted to see it and I found out just after walking out of my front door that it was a Christian film. I am a Christian and I evangelize, but I also keep in mind people's rights and opinions. No one really likes a pushy movie of any religion. However, the storyline was compelling, and the acting was phenomenal.

Question: Where have you seen the little girl other than this film? I was VERY impressed by her acting, that was not an easy role.

"Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something." -Princess Bride (Wesley)

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I HAD to look up what "I evangelize" meant, and I found this:
http://www.gotquestions.org/evangelize-friends-family.html

it's so goddamned unnerving I don't know what to say

"The Bible tells us that some people will be offended at the Gospel (Luke 12:51-53). It is especially troubling to risk offending someone with whom you have frequent contact. However, we are commanded to share the Gospel – there are no excuses for not doing so (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15)."

that sent a shiver down my spine

YOU ARE COMMANDED!!!! NO EXCUSES!!!

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Settle down there pardner, it's not the "shiver" material you think it is, rather it is an exhortation to believers to not "hide their light under a bushel". Yes, we are "commanded" to share the Gospel, we are also commanded to love our neighbor, to be loving, to be kind, to be truthful, but we often don't follow those commands, and then there is Jesus (meaning, He took care of our lack of following commands... forever - in a good way).

The whole reason the law even exists ("the law" meaning the law God gave to Moses to give to the people) is to show that man can't follow the law (in a manner of speaking). God knows that none of us can follow the law "no, not one", which is why He sent Jesus.

When you read stuff like that on websites, take it with a grain of salt. Just like you take the stuff you read here with a grain of salt. Just because it *looks* official or important, doesn't mean it is. Here is a guide, when you see someone who proclaims him or herself to be a Christian, and they are twisting the Bible into some kind of dogmatic scare tactic... that's right, take it with a grain of salt.

And, to the person who started this and then exited stage left — your folk can be very, very condemning as well. Case in point? Ah... your own post that started this. Remember this, sometimes there are two roads to one destination, and then sometimes there is only one. As thinking adults we have to decide, is this a "two-road" or "one-road" situation. For example, there are lots of ways to get yourself in the sky, you can fly, ride a rocket, or wait for a few decades and ride a space elevator, but there is only one direction to go... up. Many ways to get there, only one direction to go.

I am of the belief that there is one road to salvation, but perhaps many roads to discovering the need for salvation. Some people simply need to have it from a young age. Me, I had to hit a wall before I discovered my need. Many roads to discovery, one road to salvation. And before you decry that other religions allow for multiple roads to "salvation" (or they say you don't need any "salvation" at all), remember this... there is only *one* "person" who's opinion matters, and that is the person that judges. There are many opinions in a court of law; the gallery, the reporters, the accused, the accuser, and so on, but only one opinion *matters*, that of the judge. Our job as humans is to find out, if there is a judge, and if there is, what are his/her requirements? If there is a judge, and he has certain requirements, then only his opinion matters, and if he says there is one road... well... the intelligent person finds that road. If you believe you've found the judge and he/she says there are many roads, fine, follow one of those roads. However, be sure, because you don't want to be wrong on this trip... there might be no u-turns.

I believe there is but one road to salvation, and to me that is the kindest, most intelligent way of all. Multiple roads to one location leads to accidents and getting lost. A good father would provide one road, and mark it clearly, and I believe that is what God has done. All we must do is find the way, and Jesus is that way. If you look at all the world religions, there is only one where man cannot earn his way into the promised land. Only one where the playing field is fair and level. Only one where your station in life doesn't have anything to do with whether you will be worthy, or be able to be saved. Only one where God isn't counting your deeds to decide if you get in or not. Only one where salvation in truly possible. I believe that way is Jesus, and it is clearly illustrated in the Bible. Pick up a copy, and read the Gospel of John, it's easy reading, and even if you don't believe at least you can say you read it and it will take you less than a lunch hour. Read it and decide if Jesus really is the one road, or if you need to keep looking.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Excellent explanation man.
I totally agree with you.

Smile, Jesus loves you.

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I will not try to push my religion on you, but I want to point out every religion on the face of the earth encourages the believers of their faith to disciple ->(bring others into the faith). Even Jewish people do this and I know because I deal with Jewish people all the time!

I have a very big question that I do not expect you to answer and that is: How did you come to believe what you believe? Come on now... Woe, I guess it was from being educated (right or wrong)?? Hmmmmm.... That is what you call pushing religion on everybody else. Say it comes from Mom and Dad? Then they are guilty of this "pushing" as well.

I feel just the opposite as you do. I welcome the opinion of people of every culture and religion. I am a Christian but I want to hear what people have to say about this thing called eternity! If you do not think much about this matter than it might be quite clear that whatever God you believe in will not think much about you either.

Ok, so I did not say the "J" word or the "C" word, so I did not push my religion on you, but one last thing I would like to say is that there is a "STOP" button on your DVD / VHS player that you can use at ANY time when you are offended by messages about religion or any other subjece that bothers you!

Sean Richard McCarthy

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I would just like to say that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith many times. Just like you, I had Christianity rammed down my throat-you see, I lost my virginity at 15, my parents divorced, and I had really bad depression. In my freshman year of college, I want to a private Christian school. I was hoping that I would find love and understanding. But I didn't-I myself, even though I was a Christian, found only condemnation and judgement, not to mention no sympathy or even empathy.

I was so broken. They told me God was mad at me and I wanted out. I hated the dumb religion. I hated what it stood for and what it had done. I mean, many people have done things in the "name of Christianity" that was very, very wrong. Saying phrases like, "God hates fags" bombing abortion clinics, being mean and persecuting another for not being a Christian, etc. It saddened me to the core. I explored many other faiths-agnostiscm, buddhism, and new age, paganism/spiritualism.

But when I looked at the Bible and I spent some time alone-a time where I almost killed myself from pain. I found that this Jesus found me. I don't know how to explain it-but it was as though something magical touched my heart and I was healed of shame, guilt, and depression. Through prayer and meditation on the Bible, I saw that I have meaning, I have purpose and that this Jesus, loves me unconditionally, today, now, just as I am. Whether I am doing something wrong or not.

So I am not forcing my beliefs down your throat. I respect your beliefs and I respect your desire to find your own way. By all means question your faith at every moment and finds what suits you. All I know is that my relationship with Jesus (not religion, because that's tradition and man-made, go-through-the motion stuff-like going to church every Sunday, but not really changing like most so-called Christians) is very real to me. I fight for it because it made me better, it healed me and I have been blessed. I was in so much pain before-I felt so alone and I was very hurt and bitter by those who had hurt me.

But this faith, this love, this relationship, this being real with God and letting Him see the real me, is amazing and I am so much more creative and full of life now that I know God personally.

He says to me that He loves you too and that He desires for you to know His arms of love-He's sorry for what others said and did to you that was hurtful in His name-but His arms are open to you. You are His precious beloved and there is no one else like you. There is so much He has for you-so much good, so many wonderful blessings. Just seek His word and seek His heart and that empty place, will be feeled.

God bless you with all my heart!
Naomi

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angels on your body!

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that's really cool, but you really should go to church, as they say "fishermen go to sea, so christians go to church" there is alot people dont know about god but every week you learn to know him more, i am a christian and my parent are missionarys in panama city, i am very young but i know and love god for what he has done for me, going to church is something christians should do,
god bless
Jack

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I agree. There are many benefits that come from going to church, if you go for the right reasons: To worship God; to learn more about Him; to discover what He wants from you and for you; and to bond with fellow believers. If you go to church for those reasons, you will be immensely blessed. I speak from experience. I've been attending the local Fellowship Church for nearly four years, and I still feel blessed to this day. I've grown so much during the past four years, and it's because I found a God-centered church that is based on the Word of God and is led by a preacher who shares the truth with us ... even when that truth is inconvenient.

Do I believe that you can be a Christian without attending church? Yes. However, being a part of the fellowship is vital, especially when it comes to accountability. Cinderella_daisy, remember that your fellow Christians are also your spiritual brothers and sisters. Don't shun us. Embrace us and learn from us.

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Thank you, Naomi, for sharing your testimony. That takes guts. :o)

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So... what if it is "a christian movie"?
Do you have a problem with watching movies that
don't reflect your own opinions and beliefs
right back at you?

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I enjoyed this film. Yes, I am a Christian, and I think its sad that most of the people here, have a strong preconcieved notion about Christians. What you've got to try and remember is that because a couple bad expierences doesn't make them all bad. I under stand where you're coming from though. There have been a few Christians that i have felt embarraced for. But not all are like that.

I love learning new things, about different cultures and religions. But there are some who reject the unfamiliar, and can come off as pushy.

Its sad, that this is the way we are seen as a whole :((

Anyway, I liked the movie for the all around meaning...not to mention I am from scottish and welsh backgrounds, and though not all of thier accents were spot on, i still enjoyed listening to them...

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