MovieChat Forums > Hacking Democracy (2006) Discussion > Can someone answer this for me please?

Can someone answer this for me please?


I just caught the last third or so of this on HBO (I plan to watch the whole thing whenever I see it on again).

Anyway, I had a question about the end part where the votes on the test machine came up different from the votes they cast (when they were doing their experiment).

I know the totals came up drastically different (7 yes and 1 no on the machine versus 8 no and 2 yes on paper). What I didn't catch though was whether this was because the security expert guy tampered with the memory card before hand, or if the machine iteself tallied the votes incorrectly.

I thought at first that they were simply going to do the votes on the machine and THEN give the guy the memory card to see if he could tamper with it, but in the show it clearly shows the votes coming up wrong the instant they were processed.


I didn't see the whole episode, so I am thinking I must have simply missed something earlier that clarified this.

So, did the guy alter the memory card before the test to make the votes come up wrong? Or were they going to tally the votes and see if he could alter them (after the fact), but never got that far because the machine itself counted them wrong without him even messing with the card?

Thanks.

reply

the expert put an executable file on the memory card that would alter the way the system interpreted the votes.
it was quite creative.
however, if you go to diebold's website, the expert went on record saying that the executable likely would not have been sustainable during an actual election.

Hope this helped.

This movie certainly inspired me to look deeper into the matter.
It was engaging, but one sided.
I wonder what the other side is, don't you?

reply

Definitely. Anytime I see anything like this, I ALWAYS wonder what the other side of the story is.

Everything I saw on this documentary is something I would definitely consider "cause for alarm", but it may not have been the whole story. It's pretty easy to make something look really bad (or really good) when you have total control of the camera.

I am very interested in finding out more though.


BTW, thanks for the answer to my question.

reply

"the expert put an executable file on the memory card that would alter the way the system interpreted the votes."

It was not an executable. It was a data file containing negative and positive votes, which totalled up to zero.

"it was quite creative."
And quite easy.

"however, if you go to diebold's website, the expert went on record saying that the executable likely would not have been sustainable during an actual election."

He's either a liar, or an incompetent. Either way, he's just proven his company can't be trusted to count cow pies, let alone votes. WAKE UP!!

"I wonder what the other side is, don't you?"

They showed the other side: Diebold officials lying throught their teeth!

Would you want to hear the "other side" of a crime in which a rapist is caught in the act, and continually denies it? What would be the point?

reply

"however, if you go to diebold's website, the expert went on record saying that the executable likely would not have been sustainable during an actual election."

He's either a liar, or an incompetent. Either way, he's just proven his company can't be trusted to count cow pies, let alone votes. WAKE UP!!

http://www.diebold.com/dieboldes/pdf/hbopointbypoint.pdf

So the very man who managed to prove the system has a weakness is either a liar or incompetent?
Come on. You wake up. The same guy who rigged that mini election later said that 'the preset counter will not survive the whole cycle' and ' these two diebold claims (are) accurate'.

"Would you want to hear the "other side" of a crime in which a rapist is caught in the act, and continually denies it? "

Hmmm. Interesting tactic. Diebold wasn't 'caught in the act'. And yes, an accused rapist in this country does have a right to defend himself.
Don't be ridiculous.

reply

"So the very man who managed to prove the system has a weakness is either a liar or incompetent?"

I was referring to the claim that a Diebold official made that the memory cards were not hackable.

"The same guy who rigged that mini election later said that 'the preset counter will not survive the whole cycle' and ' these two diebold claims (are) accurate'."

You took Hursti's quote out of context. He actually said:

"While I have never tested the end-to-end cycle of the memory card, I find it most likely, that the preset counters will not survive the whole cycle- and therefore proving these two Diebold claims accurate."

So he doesn't know either. But let's stop quibbling, and get to the meat of the matter. Here is what Diebold says next:

"Just as a safe deposit box is only as secure as the vault it is in, so too must the memory cards, paper ballots and the other equipment be kept secure."

So now they've been forced to admit that their tabulators cannot detect hacked memory cards. This is the whole point. They lied when they said a memory card could not be hacked. They now admit that their system has a serious weak point and claim that voting accuracy is out of their control. This goes completely against their entire rationale for using their machines in the first place. They claimed that counties should use their systems because they are more secure than paper ballots. Another lie by Diebold.

A properly designed system would have in place a method of preventing tampering of the memory cards (which are really ballot boxes), or eliminate the memory cards altogether (preferred). I mean, C'mon! A tabulator that reads negative votes as valid???

"Hmmm. Interesting tactic. Diebold wasn't 'caught in the act'."

Go ahead, deny that Diebold was continually caught lying. The vast majority of people who saw this documentary understand otherwise.

"And yes, an accused rapist in this country does have a right to defend himself.
Don't be ridiculous."

Nice try with your little straw man argumant. Of course he has the right to defend himself! Duh! But what's his credibility when he denies he's done it, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

reply

"You took Hursti's quote out of context. He actually said:

"While I have never tested the end-to-end cycle of the memory card, I find it most likely, that the preset counters will not survive the whole cycle- and therefore proving these two Diebold claims accurate."

So he doesn't know either. But let's stop quibbling, and get to the meat of the matter. "

Wait a minute. Now he DOESN"T KNOW either? so when he seems to be on your side, he's an irrefutable expert, but when he goes back and says that diebolds claims are accurate, he doesn't know?

Come on. That is called double speak.

"So now they've been forced to admit that their tabulators cannot detect hacked memory cards. This is the whole point. They lied when they said a memory card could not be hacked. They now admit that their system has a serious weak point and claim that voting accuracy is out of their control. This goes completely against their entire rationale for using their machines in the first place. They claimed that counties should use their systems because they are more secure than paper ballots. Another lie by Diebold.

A properly designed system would have in place a method of preventing tampering of the memory cards (which are really ballot boxes), or eliminate the memory cards altogether (preferred). I mean, C'mon! A tabulator that reads negative votes as valid??? "

Alright...... Listen, every system - read that again - EVERY SYSTEM - has weaknesses that can be exploited.
Period.
Nothing is 100% secure.
Nothing.

"Go ahead, deny that Diebold was continually caught lying. The vast majority of people who saw this documentary understand otherwise. "

I saw one camera angle asking a question of a diebold marketing and PR guy, then another edited shot with him making a statement, followed by edited footage that 'appears' to implicate there is a lie.

But I guess the difference between you and I is that I choose to make up my own mind, and am unwilling to accept a documentaries word for it.

"Nice try with your little straw man argumant. Of course he has the right to defend himself! Duh! But what's his credibility when he denies he's done it, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? "

Again, not a straw man (clearly you don't get that concept - you might consider refraining from using it to get credibility).
You said that diebold was like a rapist caught in the act. The truth is, diebold is more like an accused rapist. There is evidence of guilt, but nothing was 'caught', just suspected.
Credibility is not won or lost because of the amount of evidence, but rather the merit which I am calling into question until I can figure out for myself whether it is valid.

reply

[deleted]

Why are you defending Diebold?

reply

"Why are you defending Diebold? "

Why are you attacking them?
But seriously- All I am saying is that you probably shouldn't be ready to form your opinion on diebold based on one movie.
I mean, the elections in the US happened last night.
It appears that the democrats swung power in the house and possibly the senate.
All told, the election seems to have gone fairly well, with only a few glitches.
Democracy worked and the election seems to be representative of what the people wanted.
So I am curious to see if people continue to point fingers at diebold.
If the machines are bad and diebold rigs elections, does that mean the official you wanted to be elected obtained their office illegitimately?
I am not defending diebold as much as I am saying there is another side to this.
Now, you can choose to ignore the other side and believe the precepts put forth in this movie without considering any other information, without finding your own information, and without questioning the source, or you can keep your mind open and realize that every story has two sides. This movie only told one. It is unfair and unethical to consider diebold guilty as charged without at least investigating the possibility that they may not be.
That being said, I am glad that I watched this movie because it opened my eyes to something that I hadn't considered before.

reply

"Why are you attacking [Diebold]?"

Hhhhm, let's see....maybe it's because they're a bunch of lying, incompetent, criminal scumbags who deserve to go to jail for a long time.

"But seriously- All I am saying is that you probably shouldn't be ready to form your opinion on diebold based on one movie."

That's why I haven't. I've been studying this stuff since the book "Votescam: The Stealing of America" came out, 14 years ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Votescam-Stealing-James-M-Collier/dp/0963416308/sr=8-1/qid=1163114120/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7827531-1431203?ie=UTF8&s=books

"All told, the election seems to have gone fairly well, with only a few glitches."

Who are you trying to kid? Go to blackboxvoting.org or any of the other sites tracking election fraud, do a bit of reading, and tell me there were only a few glitches. The only reason more Democrats got elected this time is because the crooks couldn't overcome the massive tide of angry people voting out the criminals.

"It is unfair and unethical to consider diebold guilty as charged without at least investigating the possibility that they may not be."

OK. So let's have a trial. We can present the video and written evidence proving Diebold feloniously lied on numerous occasions to a jury, and let them decide.

BTW, there have already been many hearings and trials, and Diebold has lost them all. I suppose you weren't aware of that.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

hey jeff his statement says pretty much that what he did shouldn't be possible *IF* election procedures are followed correctly. What this documentary also highlights though is that election procedures clearly aren't being followed that stringently. That leaves the elections open to tamper with and not in any way that can be checked or discovered at a later date!

reply

"And why exactly should we believe what Diebold says after all the lies they've told? Are you that naive? "

First of all, it wasn't what diebold said. They quoted an email Harri Hursti, the man in the video that beat the machine.
It is located here:
http://www.diebold.com/dieboldes/pdf/hbopointbypoint.pdf

Furthermore, it is not about belief of disbelief, it is about their right to defend themselves.
It is morally incorrect to assume guilt based on one sides story alone.
We don't know what was edited, how it was edited. All we know is what we are presented with and who presented it.
As far as I can tell, we still live in a country where we give the accused an opportunity to defend themselves.

reply