MovieChat Forums > Persepolis (2008) Discussion > is there really so much hostilty towards...

is there really so much hostilty towards foreigners in Europe?


Before she left for Vienna, the movie pretty much presented this choice of life as a turn for the better, an escape from the restrictive and opressive Iran towards civilization, culture and a better life in Austria. But judging from what she had to put up with in Vienna, I must say, the people around her are described as being very ignorant, arogant, selfish, totally lacking any spiritual quality, "new-york lower class" style, and , after all, it's the country of Mozart. The way those people treated her there, partly because she was from a diffrent culture, kind of contradicts my knowledge of western-europeans as friendly, tolerating people. After all, she didn't rely on public mercy or charity. So why treat somebody like that just because she is "diffrent" ? Myself I am eastern-european and will be going to a western-european country, and the attitude shown towards that girl in this movie made me think a little about what to expect (or not to expect, friendliness for one).

reply

Where are you from? If anything, Eastern European countries have an even worse reputation for the way they treat foreigners than Western European (with the exception of France, of course)!

reply

*Post deleted by user*

reply

Care to elaborate? Which Eastern European country are you referring to?

reply

Most obvious example would be to look at the different treatment of foreigners in the former East Gemany compared to West Germany. Otherwise check on youtube for the treatment of black British footballers when they play in any country in the Balkans.

reply

I think it's important to remember that it was a different time when she was living in Vienna. And the situation in Iran at the time informed how people may have seen her.

Also, really important, this movie is about her experience. I think you have to keep in mind that Marjan feels like an outsider. That's her experience. Other people certainly feel that as well, and some people may treat foreigners differently, but not always. Don't assume because that's her experience it's everyone's...

reply

I felt bad for her when both her relationships went bust, but I am glad she spoke up for herself when those snooty schoolgirls were putting her down, although she should not have called the nuns tramps. She could have corrected them another way.

reply

Hard to say, but ultimately I think people will be people whereever you go.

I have never seen any racial hostility shown in London where I live (i've certainly never had any directed towards me but im a white native so that goes without saying!)

I do have a friend however from eastern europe who lives down south whos family has had racist abuse thrown at them.
The perpetrators of that towards his siblings were younger, of course backing off as soon as they started to answer back (yet again demonstrating what pathetic cowards nationalist racists are!) His mum by an old woman, yet again reinforcing the racist-old-person stereotype.


To be honest I don't think it matters whether people are working, taking welfare or just visiting, racists will have a problem with them simply because, as you say, they are different.

I would like to say that England doesn't just tolerate other cultures but welcomes and encourages them as the best from both worlds always beats the best from one. The trouble is its impossible to say how welcoming your own country will be to outsiders because you can never see if from the other side.

As someone stated above Eastern Europe has a bit of a repuation for that but Im sure if someone said that to you you'd hotly disagree, having never seen it for yourself!



Now to play devils advocate, make sure you don't mistake their CULTURE for being racist or unwelcoming.
Some people may behave in an arrogant, standoffish or apparently rude manner without meaning anything by it simply because that is the way people behave in that part of the country* (i'm thinking British and Germans here).
For example, if you ever visit England don't be offended if old people working in customer service roles don't acctually offer any customer service (thats just a thing here (and probably why everyone I know shops online)).
It may just not be in their culture to be overly familiar with strangers.

*Note im not talking about the movie here (which was written with a specific intent and point), I mean what someone may encounter IRL.


Case in point, when my family travelled to Singapore they came back with stories about how if they stopped and opened a map within a few seconds someone would come up and offer to help them. I can't imagine that would happen in London but if You stopped and asked someone they would be more than happy to help, maybe walking you through the station and/or missing their train in the process to make sure you get on OK (I know i've seen and done it)

You mention specifically a lack of spirituality shown by the people in the movie, but bear in mind that spirituality is not necessarily a trait valued by all cultures. Persuing material wealth or status is not a bad priority in itself (e.g. stereotype of all Asians wanting to be doctors)
Likewise, 'being polite' to one person may be 'being conformist' to another - some people don't like being told how to behave in a free country.


Ultimately in my experience 'people' are aholes but I have only ever met One 'person' I didn't get along with.
You'll find no shortage of friendliness in any country I believe once you get to know those who live there.

reply

People are people no matter where you are. You might feel out of place or not. Xenophobia appears in the strangest, illogical manifestations, perhaps xenophobia is itself illogical. Since a lot of eastern European countries have joined the European Union and western Europe has seen an influx of immigrants from eastern Europe, it is possible that there is a community of people from your home country where you are going and so you might have an easier time.

I somewhat related to Marjane's experiences feeling out-of-place in Austria. I lived in a town in the U.S. for almost my entire life but was never accepted into that community because I was too foreign. I lived in an apartment complex made up of other immigrants and made friends with them instead.

I do not understand the assertion that eastern Europeans are intolerant of foreigners. It varies from country to country. Because of the Iron Curtain eastern Europeans are less used to seeing immigrants than western Europeans (they are more used to being immigrants themselves), but in the one eastern European country I have experience with, Poland, the people I encountered there were friendly and willing to help foreigners. But maybe others have different experiences.


reply

"Because of the Iron Curtain eastern Europeans are less used to seeing immigrants than western Europeans"
That's true. But note that Austria was on the western side of the curtain.

reply

The friendliness and tolerance in Western Countries varies, especially depending on how long did it took for them to open themselves to those who are very different. Countries with colonial past like France and England opened faster than others and acceptance come in consequence, but in an isolated country like Austria, with no colonial past, little immigration, with people with a suppoosedly "colder" temperament and a conservative culture, the life of an immigrant with a non-European background could have easily felt like that three decades ago. (Remember, this is more about the perception of a foreigner girl who had just lost her home and was the stranger par excellence, than about objective truth).
Myself I am an Eastern European but even in my country Germany and Austria had back in the day a reputation that is similar to what Marjane seems to have felt (and depicts in the film). That section of the film felt surprisingly familiar.
Also, the film seems a bit inspired by the way Germans and Austrians have seen themselves in the past. I can retrace some of that feeling of alienation and cold dark atmosphere in the works of expressionist painters such as Georg Grozs and Otto Dix, check them out.

And yes, there are *beep* and ignorants everywhere, even in the most elevated places where you wouldn't expect it; I know this from my own experience as an immigrant in the West. Noting this, Western European countries have opened up a lot in the last decades, especially the Northern ones. It's a great place to be.

reply

[deleted]

Yes. There always has been for a thousand different reasons, some valid (are you a spy who will bring back plans to besiege my walled city? are you checking out our crops and water and livestock?)
Some invalid.
"You look different.
Act different.
Worship differently.
Have different values."

Some of it is based on fear (created by those who benefit from division) and some of it is based on fear of change.

reply

Except France is infinitely colder to immigrants and foreigners than Austria.

Austria doesn't have to routinely cancel sporting events because race riots break out with French citizens shouting slurs and attempting to violently attack players on their own team.

reply

Of course Europe is not racist. Only during my lifetime millions and millions of newcomers arrived here, which would not be possible if the people here were racist. It did cause a lot of problems too, that the people here try to solve as good as we can, like housing or adapting the schools to the many children that don't speak our languages so they can keep up and don't fall behind.

There are also people though that express anger about labor migration, the rise of criminality or the refusal of some cultures to speak our language and the habit to import discriminating traditions that we thought we got rid of.
In my opinion it's legitimate to discuss these things, though others like to call it racist. Freedom of speech allows us to speak out against discrimination or anything else, but some like to call us xenophobes if we do so.
I often see foreigners on television calling us racist in their own non-European language because they refuse to learn and speak the language of the country that they live in. In my experience such people that call us racist are usually racists or intolerant themselves. I have always liked meeting people from other cultures, but sometimes this is just not mutual.

I assume sometimes foreigners are treated bad, on the other hand, many Europeans are treated bad by foreigners as well.

reply

"Europe is not racist."

Not a fan of reality, huh?

reply

Racism is a strong word - and seems to me that when people hear it they instantly think in physical violence. Hurting others with objects, wearing swastikas tattooed or behaving like KKK members. Yeah, thinking in that way there is no racism in europe.

Seeing other ethnicities or cultural expressions however still can activate some insecurity triggers in some people. If they are forced to interact with those persons, they may react with mean comments and some idiocy when talking.

In fact if you are the average white person (I guess everybody saying 'there is no racism in europe' is) just google this example: "japan microaggression", lot of westerners ranting japanese don't feel westerners can integrate ever. If you go back to my first paragraph yeah, japanese are not racists. So you could argue if these westerners are just a bunch of whiners, or maybe the world is not a huge green prairie with flowers and you have just been in the 'right' side all your life, where everything is right. These westerners tryint to integrate there just feel like any exotic person would feel in occidental countries, with constant remarks remembering them they are out of place.

reply

[deleted]