MovieChat Forums > Mad Men (2007) Discussion > Some questions on The Donald...

Some questions on The Donald...

posted 7 years ago by dfle3
25 replies | jump to latest

1) Don says he "took another man's name and made nothing of it".

I find that hard to believe...he became a partner in a profitable advertising agency...that seems like an achievement. How are we supposed to interpret Don's comment?

2) Do you think that Don abandoned McCann Erickson because he thought that he was just a small cog in their machine? I.e. one of the McCann suits says to him something like "So you're the guy who's gonna lift us up a notch, right?". Later on, he sees Ted asked the same question by a McCann suit...it's my impression that the penny dropped at this moment with Don, and it's because of this he decides to flee the firm.

3) At the start of the second last episode of the series, Don gets pulled over by a cop...did he dream that? Where did that moment fit in with the rest of the episode? Did it happen before he stayed at that motel where he got accused of stealing money?

Non-Don questions...

4) Who is the Holloway in Joan's firm of Holloway & Harris? The end credits have a Gail Holloway. Who is she? Doesn't ring a bell for me.

5) Helen Slater is also in end credits of the final episode. Who was she in the episode? I didn't recognise her.

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] Real_Ex_Kav 7 years ago

At the start of the second last episode of the series, Don gets pulled over by a cop...did he dream that? Where did that moment fit in with the rest of the episode? Did it happen before he stayed at that motel where he got accused of stealing money?

Dream

4) Who is the Holloway in Joan's firm of Holloway & Harris? The end credits have a Gail Holloway. Who is she? Doesn't ring a bell for me.

Her mother. Although I don't think she was an actual part of the firm, but it made it sound more professional.

Helen Slater is also in end credits of the final episode. Who was she in the episode? I didn't recognise her.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMjI3OTEwNjE3OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNTg3MjM3NTE@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg

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[–] dfle3 7 years ago

Thanks for all the replies.

It's a long time since Helen Slater played Supergirl!

I remember seeing the name Harry Hamlin in the credits too...it took me a while to figure out who he was...but gee, he's kept in shape since his L.A. Law days!

The last guy in this thread mentions Joan's ex husband...I remember seeing what I thought was a spoiler on these boards...her husband beating her up or something...I can't say that I remember anything like that when I watched the show!

Is Joan's boy fathered by Roger? I was under the impression that it was her ex'...but it seems pretty clear from the final episode that it belongs to Roger...the long time between each series and my failing memory haven't helped...I even forgot about Pete and Peggy having a child!

P.S. do you guys think it was a happy ending for Don?

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] Real_Ex_Kav 7 years ago

The last guy in this thread mentions Joan's ex husband...I remember seeing what I thought was a spoiler on these boards...her husband beating her up or something...I can't say that I remember anything like that when I watched the show!

Greg raped Joan in episode 2x12 "The Mountain King".

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[–] dfle3 7 years ago

Greg raped Joan in episode 2x12 "The Mountain King".

Wow...can't say that I remembered that...maybe it's a combination of my memory plus the fact (I think) that the time between each series of Mad Men was quite long, from memory...maybe more so in Australia...perhaps SBS TV here aired 'new' series after an even longer break than what happened in the US...perhaps just for the last few (2 or 3?) series.

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] Thomasina 7 years ago

Is Joan's boy fathered by Roger? I was under the impression that it was her ex'...but it seems pretty clear from the final episode that it belongs to Roger...

Yes, Roger is Kevin's biological father. Joan and Roger were no longer having their affair at the time of conception, but in "The Beautiful Girls" (S4E09) they were walking together and got robbed at gunpoint, and afterward were so scared and shaken that they spontaneously had sex. (Here is that scene: http://www.amc.com/shows/mad-men/video-extras/season-04/episode-09/talked-about-scene-episode-409-mad-men-roger-joan-give-it-up.)

In the next episode, Joan tells Roger she is pregnant. She decides to have an abortion, but then while she is sitting in the doctor's waiting room, she changes her mind, and the next time we see her, she is on a bus--presumably going for a conjugal visit to the base where Greg is stationed for basic training so she can plausibly claim that the baby is his.

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

She decides to have an abortion, but then while she is sitting in the doctor's waiting room, she changes her mind, and the next time we see her, she is on a bus--presumably going for a conjugal visit to the base where Greg is stationed for basic training so she can plausibly claim that the baby is his.

She was on the bus going back to New York from the abortionist in New Jersey. We don't immediately learn that she changed her mind in the doctor's office after talking to a young girl's mother (who assumed that the patient was Joan's daughter, not Joan herself).

Greg had been in Vietnam for a couple of months, and she was always worried that he would do the math. Apparently, he never did, at least not out loud.

[–] Thomasina 7 years ago

Greg had been in Vietnam for a couple of months

I don't think there's any evidence provided in the show that Greg is out of basic training and in Vietnam already by that point (Episode 410, "Hands and Knees"), and there is some evidence that he isn't. Only a few episodes earlier, her doctor was encouraging her to try to get pregnant soon by saying: "Why don't you join him for basic training? It would boost the men's morale. From what I remember, San Antonio is lovely this time of year."

Then, in "Hands and Knees" (the same episode in which she goes to the abortion doctor's office), when Joan tells Roger that she is pregnant, she says that Greg has "been gone for seven weeks." During the Vietnam era, the amount of time spent in Basic Training could vary some, but it would have taken a minimum of 8 weeks for the first round, with the possibility of another 8 weeks of specialty training (as this man experienced: http://www.boroughofnorthvale.com/vfwproject/PDFs/Diblasio_Salvatore.pdf)

You also said that "She was on the bus going back to New York from the abortionist in New Jersey." But I don't see how you are so certain about that. There was very little context provided for the shot of Joan on the bus--we just see her riding on a bus at night, looking out the window. The seats seem to be the padded type on a long-distance bus, not the more utilitarian ones common to city transit buses:
http://www.lippsisters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Mad+Men+Mad+Style+Episode+10+Joan+4.jpg.

I think this leaves room for at least the possibility that she went for a quickie (in more ways than one) visit with Greg at Basic Training.

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

It's interesting that we watched the same show and came to different conclusions.

In "Hands and Knees," she tells Roger that she is pregnant:

"I'm late."

"What?"

"I'm very late."

"Congratulations."

"I thought you should know."

"Me?"

"He's been gone for seven weeks. It can't be his."

"Are you sure?"

"There hasn't been anyone else."

"Let me take care of this."

They go to see a doctor, who recommends an abortionist in Morristown, New Jersey.

Joan insists on going alone, and changes her mind while in the abortionist's office.

The next time we see her in this episode, she is riding the bus back to New York City. (The screen shot you found.)

Later, in "Tomorrowland," which takes place a couple of months later, she is talking to Greg in Vietnam.

Greg: "So, when are you gonna tell them your news?"

"They'll know soon enough."

"Are you showing at all? The picture I have of you doesn't change."

"I'll take a new one and I'll send it to you."

"You know all I want to know."

"Yes, honey, they're bigger."

"Why are you torturing me? I just woke up and it's already 90 degrees here."

If there was a chance that Greg was the father, why would she involve Roger and seek an abortion?

[–] Thomasina 7 years ago

If there was a chance that Greg was the father, why would she involve Roger and seek an abortion?

You've misunderstood what I'm saying. Roger is definitely the father; there's no chance that Greg is the father. Greg has been gone for 7 weeks.

However the way the episode and the ones before it were written, constructed, and shot leaves room for the possibility that after Joan decided not to have the abortion, she went (on a bus) to visit Greg at Basic Training and had sex with him for the express purpose of giving him a reason to believe that he is the father.

Like almost everything else in Mad Men, that is up for interpretation. It is of course possible to watch that episode and come to a different conclusion. But there is nothing on screen that contradicts that interpretation and a number of things that support it--and to me it is much more plausible than just assuming that Greg never learned to count.

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

In "The Good News," Joan couldn't get an extra day off after New Year's to fit in with Greg's "inflexible" hospital schedule.

How was she going to get enough time off to take a bus to San Antonio and back?

[–] Thomasina 7 years ago

Maybe she went over a weekend? Maybe she was taking a bus to the airport? Again, there is just enough information provided for it to be a plausible possibility, but not enough for there to be an open-and-shut answer. Sounds like a typical Mad Men episode!

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

It is true that enlisted men in the Army went to boot camp for 8 weeks, followed by AIT in infantry, armor, or artillery.

Doctors, however, were treated much differently. They came in as captains and attended a very brief boot camp for a couple of weeks to teach them how to salute and wear the uniform.

[–] dfle3 7 years ago

Wow...this is topic has turned quite hardcore! My head is spinning! I won't really weigh in here because it assumes a lot of in-depth knowledge of timelines and somebody posted a pretty definitive transcript between Joan and Roger around the time that she learned that she was pregnant...I'll just note this, re you comment:

In the next episode, Joan tells Roger she is pregnant. She decides to have an abortion, but then while she is sitting in the doctor's waiting room, she changes her mind, and the next time we see her, she is on a bus--presumably going for a conjugal visit to the base where Greg is stationed for basic training so she can plausibly claim that the baby is his.

I've noticed that time can really fly between episodes and series...not sure how that effects your quote above though.

I had an amusing thought about the comment below:

Jhines01

Greg had been in Vietnam for a couple of months, and she was always worried that he would do the math. Apparently, he never did, at least not out loud.

There's a real life story about how centuries ago the Queen of England had a 'legitimate' heir to the throne...but (from memory), she would have had to have been pregnant for around 13 months for that to be true! That's because the King was at the Crusades (from memory). I think that the king bought that!

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

I've noticed that time can really fly between episodes and series.

That is true. There are usually a few weeks or months between episodes and a year or more between seasons. However, time within each episode is relatively compressed. "Three Sundays," for example, takes place over three consecutive weekends.

That is why it was always obvious to me that Joan was on the bus from Morristown back to New York. This required no explanation and meshed well with the plot. On the other hand, a trip to San Antonio (or even to the airport) would require some additional plot development. No "conjugal visit" is ever mentioned.

Greg may have done the math in his head, but he never accused Joan out loud. However, his lack of feeling for Kevin may have been motivated by the suspicion that he was not his. After Joan is pissed that he volunteered for a second tour in Vietnam, Greg just walks out, and shows no concern for his son at all.

[–] baileythedog 7 years ago

Greg may have done the math in his head, but he never accused Joan out loud. However, his lack of feeling for Kevin may have been motivated by the suspicion that he was not his. After Joan is pissed that he volunteered for a second tour in Vietnam, Greg just walks out, and shows no concern for his son at all.

I imagine they weren't actually speaking on the phone every day. I assumed Joan lied to him about the baby's birthdate anyway. But I do think Greg must have eventually guessed regardless considering he just wasn't much attached to Kevin.

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

Making trans-Pacific phone calls in the sixties was a big deal. The military may have had special arrangements in Vietnam to make it easier. At the end of their phone call, Greg says something like, "I'll call you next Saturday at 8 o'clock your time.

When I was stationed in Germany for three years in the early seventies, I never called back to the States. No one even had a phone in their quarters, because there was a three-year waiting list to get one from the Deutsche Bundespost.

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

1) Peggy: "Don, come home."

"I messed everything up. I'm not the man you think I am."

"Don, listen to me. What did you ever do that was so bad?"

"I broke all my vows. I scandalized my child. I took another man's name and made nothing of it."

"That's not true."

"I only called because I realized I never said good-bye to you."

"I don't think you should be alone right now."

2) As he is sitting in the boring meeting, Don looks out the window and sees an airplane. This inspires him to leave town and go west.

3) That was a dream while he was sleeping in a motel. It was after he left the town in Oklahoma.

4) Holloway is Joan's maiden name.

5. She played someone named Sheila, who sat next to Don at the group therapy session.

[–] Thomasina 7 years ago

4) Who is the Holloway in Joan's firm of Holloway & Harris?

From the trivia section here at imdb.com:

Joan finally chooses the name "Holloway, Harris" for her new, independent company. Many viewers were left confused about where these names came from. When Joan proposed a partnership to Peggy, she said that their company would be named "Harris, Olson," because "you need two names to make it sound real." Joan also told Peggy that she didn't want a professional partnership with anyone else but Peggy. So after Peggy turned down Joan's offer, Joan gave the company both of her names: Holloway (her original last name from before she was married) and Harris (the name she acquired when she married Dr. Greg Harris and kept even after she divorced him). This verifies the implication from earlier in the episode that Joan has gone into business by herself, with no other partner.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804503/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv#spoilers

[–] Moonlighty 7 years ago

I thought that was obvious but I guess if many viewers were confused, maybe it wasn't. Like you pointed out, she wanted two names and Peggy didn't want to join her, so she used her two names. It's not like most clients of Sterling Cooper met both Sterling and Cooper.

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Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

[–] There_Is_No_Sayid 7 years ago

1) Don is having a crisis of faith. He sees his work as meaningless and so his success in the advertising industry isn't anything to brag about.

2) Don probably did dislike being a smaller fish in a big pond.

4) Joan's maiden name is Holloway. Gail is IIRC her mom's name. The name "Holloway and Harris" is kind of a fiction meant to make them seem like a bigger firm, rather than just Joan acting on her own.

5) Slater lead one of the sessions at the retreat Don went to.

[–] dfle3 7 years ago

1) Don is having a crisis of faith. He sees his work as meaningless and so his success in the advertising industry isn't anything to brag about.

2) Don probably did dislike being a smaller fish in a big pond.

Do you think it was a happy ending for Don? I remember reading what I thought was a potential spoiler for the episode, something along the lines that that episode marked his downfall (I supposed he might have died or something...which the previous episode might have set up, in any case). However, looking at the final episode, Don looks positively serene and in a good place! I'd only worry about him burning through his money...how much would he left? He gave his ex $1m...but he sold his flat for something like $100k, I imagine.

Do you think Don ends up becoming a guru? Or maybe he returns to work recharged, or sets up a new agency?

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] maggimae83 7 years ago

I hate the thought of him going back and working for Jim Hobart. I'd be happier if he set up a new agency (maybe with Peggy and Joan and Freddy) and stealing the coca cola account from McCann. Of course there are those who will point out that the commercial was produced by McCan IRL. So maybe he will stay with McCann but eventually force Hobart out.

maggimae83

[–] dfle3 7 years ago

I had to look up Jim Hobart...he's the guy who dudded Joan out of 50% of the value of her shares in SC&P? I was actually hoping that Joan would take him on, but Roger talked her out of it.

Don would have had a 'no compete' clause with McCann, I presume, not allowing him to set up a new company...at least for a number of years. Can't really see Don forcing Hobart out...he wouldn't be a partner in McCann, so he wouldn't have any clout there.

Talk very fast. Hope something good happens. Take the credit.



[–] maggimae83 7 years ago

Well, this is where Joan comes in. He could give the idea to her and she could make the commercial. But I would really like Peggy to be involved.

maggimae83

[–] Jhines01 7 years ago

Hobart goes back to Season 1. He tried to hire Don away from Sterling Cooper by hiring Betty to act in Coca-Cola commercials. Once Don refused to join McCann, Hobart fired Betty.