Disclaimer: I am in NO WAY implying that any of the abuse against Sylvia was even remotely warranted.
The movie depicts her as a good girl, making Keener's character seem even more off her rocker for her attitude toward Sylvia. Jealousy and insanity play a large role.
My question is, was Sylvia really such a nice girl in real life? Perhaps she was a bit of an instigator.
It doesn't matter really.
shareIf it doesn't matter to you then fine, then move on and forget about it but that doesn't give you the right to say that it doesn't matter to anyone else. That's the same as someone butting into a discussion to tell the other participants that what they're talking about isn't worth a conversation. I, for one am actually interested in an answer to that question, myself. The same as most of the posters that decided to click on this thread. I mean, the title of the thread is rather clear. It's not like any of us were tricked into participating.
As far as the topic, I think I read on some forum, where a poster that actually went to the same school as the girls, described Sylvia as being quiet and always being dirty and wearing raggedy clothes.
I woke up this way...
it really doesn't.
Just because you do a few teenager things, if she did, doesn't mean you torture the girl...
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The OP is asking a genuine question, you don't all need to take the moral highground when they have already stated they are not in any way excusing Sylvia's abuse.
I think Sylvia was a pretty girl, and maybe she knew it. Maybe she looked to dress up, maybe she liked catching boys eyes. They used this trivial, teenage thing against her, as both gertrude and paula were hideous. Then obviously their jealousy was turned to hatred after the whole pregnancy situation. That's my take on it anyway.
R.I.P Quinneh and Toni. True Northern Heroes
Responding to the original post with a reply that "it really doesn't matter" isn't being snooty and "taking the moral highground." For me at least, and I'm pretty sure for the second poster, it's just continuing to stand on the plain old plain old level ground where we've pretty much always been.
If it's true that "there are no stupid questions," still, surely there are some grossly irrelevant questions. Like this one.
"I don't deduce, I observe."
See - it's fine when it's all made up and doesn't mean anything, but when it happened in real life to a real person, it's suddenly so tender and sensitive. I think it's a very real and interesting question, when looking at films and what and how they convey characters/situations, to ask how the dynamic would change if she wasn't depicted as such a sweet girl.
sharewouldn't change a thing.
shareWhile Sylvia was no instigator, she was more fierce in real life. Several of the children, including Jenny her sister, explained that she protected her sister and stood up to Gertie several times to keep Jenny from receiving any of the torture.
They also described her as a sweet girl who guided her polio stricken sister around the skating rink, helped Gertie's children with their homework, and during the abuse, never once, not once, hit back.
So in my very honest opinion. Yes, she was a nice and innocent girl. And yes, Gertie was very much off her rocker. Only worse.
In real life, from reading the case, Gertie seemed possessed. She beat Sylvia and Jenny way more than the movie portrayed and before they showed up, she slapped Paula around as well.
I agree, it seemed jealousy played a huge role. But unfortunatly, none of us will ever be able to explain why it happened.
It shouldn't have:(
But unfortunatly, none of us will ever be able to explain why it happened.
Truer words were never spoken:)
sharea psychopath who enjoyed tormenting/torturing/abusing those she deemed weaker than her. Some people are just monsters.
I agree. Even on a much smaller scale, I see it in seemingly "normal" people around me. Some people are very, very simple in that they see things in a primal, animalistic manner: they will dominate others for the sake of upholding a "hierarchy". These people are not particularly intelligent. Brute force is literally their only lifeblood.
Sound familiar?
From what I've read, Sylvia never did anything that would "instigate" any trouble, let alone justify punishment. She went to church, she went to school, she didn't swear, she did as she was told.
Many of the times that she got in trouble with Gertie were things like Gertie said that she had "eaten too much" at a church picnic. What the hell does that mean? When questioned on the stand about it, Jenny said that Sylvia had eaten "pie, other things, things she liked, she was hungry." (by the way, she was hungry because Gertie did not feed them properly) She had eaten a normal amount of food at a gathering, what the heck is wrong with that?
Another time, Sylvia got in trouble because Gertie said that she stole a gym suit. From what I've read, Sylvia was not able to afford the gym suit that was required for gym class, so she couldn't go to that class. Then she found a gym suit outside one time (apparently it had been soaked in the rain), and Gertie insisted that she had stolen it. Same thing happened with a tennis shoe (a single shoe, not a pair) that Jenny and Sylvia had found on the street one day.
Another time Sylvia got in trouble, Gertie insisted that Sylvia had spent time with Sylvia's older brother, and that she had eaten a hamburger while with him. Number 1, this is a problem why? Number 2, this likely didn't even happen! Sylvia denied that she had seen her brother or eaten anything, and Jenny testified that she saw no evidence of it either.
All of these incidents led to "punishments" for the girls.
Sylvia was a good girl. Gertie was insane. In fact, Gertie's daughter Paula was the one who got pregnant as a teenager, at the same time that Gertie was accusing Sylvia of sleeping around (which she did not).
Obviously, nothing Sylvia did, or could have done, could ever justify the atrocities to which she was subjected. And a lot of the mistreatment was for non-issues. The incident where the girls were beaten because their parents' check was late really happened and was much more violent than the film depicts.
At the same time, we don't have to imagine Sylvia as a perfect little angel. She was an ordinary girl who made mistakes, did wrong, and even deserved to be punished on occasion. She apparently did spread vicious rumors about Paula and Stephanie, and she admitted stealing the gym suit. (Do you really believe she just "found" one? Would you accept a story like that from your own kid?)
The true story is horrible enough without any embellishments or attempts tp make Sylvia out to be a saint of some kind.
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Sorry, wasn't trying to say that she was a perfect angel, just that she was generally a good kid. I'm a "good kid", but I'm not a perfect angel, there is a middle ground. I haven't heard evidence (aside from what Gertie and her kids said) that Sylvia spread rumors or stole. And if she did steal the gym suit, I wouldn't blame her. She had gotten in trouble because she wasn't able to go to gym class, because she couldn't afford the gym suit. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I would guess, though, that Sylvia's parents (or just her dad?) thought she needed straightening out because of boy stuff. It sounds like, in that culture, having a boyfriend or going on dates with boys was kind of in the territory of "trouble", and it sounds like Sylvia had some interactions with boys (and a boyfriend), so she may have been more "social" than she was supposed to be.
Typical Hollywood simplistic dumbing down of reality to make her out to be an angel to avoid any messy human complexity and so that no one can imagine the filmmakers are suggesting that she in any way deserved to be tortured and murdered (well duh). If this were a French movie, for instance, I expect it would be much more realistic. I couldn't stand what a goodie-goodie Ellen Page's character was. Her father said she was "running wild" and she grew up in and around amusement parks. It's just about impossible to be raised in that kind of environment and remain terribly innocent. One is exposed to every perverse behavior known to man in a place like that and their parents were obviously highly negligent. They are generally filled with drunks and perverts, especially back then before all the surveillance and security, etc.
shareMy understanding of Sylvia was that she was a normal teen-aged girl who sometimes mis-behaved. But nothing she did warranted the hideous and systematic abuse that Gertrude dished out to her. And she certainly did not deserve to be punished for her parents' failure to pay their upkeep as happened.
sharePerhaps she did have a bit of a hard edge to her because of having needed to be tough in a carnival environment (her parents were carny workers, not 'amusement park' workers, as others have said) so as to protect herself and her family (like she did for Jenny). It isn't uncommon for stronger-willed personalities to be seen as in need of so-called discipline. By all reports I have ever encountered, Sylvia was by no means 'bad'; even something like stealing the gym suit, viewed from the perspective of a carny kid of that era, was 'good' behaviour in that it was done so she could go to class. It's not the same as stealing, say, a tube of lipstick so she could cut school and make out with boys. Morally, to many decent people, the gym suit 'theft' isn't even really a theft, because it was done out of need. If I had a gym suit and a classmate couldn't afford one, I would give her mine; if she took it from me before I could give it, I still wouldn't consider it 'stolen', and I can assure you my parents wouldn't have felt it 'stolen', either. If this kind of reasoning is alien to anyone, maybe look into the idea of tsedaka and make this place a better world, ok?
So probably Sylvia had learned to take care of herself just fine, and kept out of trouble with men/boys and such by having a little bit of a mouth on her. And I personally don't think it is bad behaviour to maybe even point out to Paula, Gertrude, or whomever was calling her a slut that *she* wasn't the one pregnant from a married man.
All things considered, my take away from all I have read about her is that, while no child is angelic always, Sylvia actually *was* a good girl who took care of her sister, tried to make others happy, and tried to do well for (and by) herself. My impression is that it was exactly these characteristics, so absent in Paula, Gertrude, and the rest of that lot, that so enraged Gertrude in the first place. Old Gertrude would never have taken a gym suit or book to stay in school, she would have used it as an excuse to drop out and go get knocked up. And she knew it.
Just watched the movie for some random reason today and your post was a great read and thought provoking - thanks.
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