MovieChat Forums > Caprica (2010) Discussion > Help me understand the STO. SPOILERS we...

Help me understand the STO. SPOILERS welcome.

posted 10 years ago by Mazryonh
16 replies | jump to latest

I'll admit that I've only seen bits and pieces of this show when it was still on the air. However, there are a few things I don't understand about the STO that I'd like explained before I give the show another try.

First, the humanoid Cylons in the main nBSG show liked to spout that "God is love." Of course, given this assertion, it begs the question of why they authorized the genocidal Fall of the 12 Colonies that resulted in billions dead, but they must have gotten their monotheistic ideals from the STO in the first place. How did the STO justify suicidal terrorism in the name of their "loving God"?

Next, it's not exactly well-known, but terrorism doesn't work. Not for successfully propagating a worldview, or for initiating large-scale social/political change. You can read a brief analysis about this here:

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2013/09/27/does-terrorism-work/

Can you imagine if, instead of going door-to-door, holding "all welcome" information seminars, and accosting potential converts on the street, Scientologists/Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons/what-have-you started shooting and bombing unbelievers in an attempt to get people to capitulate to them? This would work even less than the strategies they use now. Note that terrorism isn't the same as full-blown conquest--plenty of people converted when the Muslim conquests were in full swing centuries ago. How does the STO expect to win converts through these methods?

Furthermore, what exactly was so corrupt and decadent about the polytheistic colonies that required such a drastic religious revolution from the point of the STO? From what I remember the main societal problems in Colonial society in Caprica's time are holoband and drug addiction. We don't kill internet and drug addicts in reality, we send them to treatment (whether such treatment is better-off being religiously-affiliated is another story). Were the clerics of the other gods known for being corrupt and spreading corruption/decadence, then?

And how exactly were the STO going to convince people that having avatars survive the deaths of their physical bodies was "apotheosis"? I read that most in the STO thought it was hogwash, but all it would take for the converts to realize that avatar uploading in no way let someone survive death would be for someone to meet their avatar while the real person was still alive. Then they would realize that a V-world avatar is but a poor approximation of the real person, similarly cut-off from the real world.

I'd appreciate it if anyone could clear this up for me.

[–] dtmuller 10 years ago

I can't answer, or even respond intelligently to, most of your questions, because I've seen only the pilot episode at this point. There is one suggestion I have that might help on the issue of "how do they expect to win converts through terrorism?"

Most likely, they don't. Terrorism is used to achieve some sort of a goal, be it revenge for some real or percieved wrong, destroying what you can't have, making a political statement, or something like that. I'm no expert on the psychology of terrorists, but I don't think they do it to win friends. People may use their religious beliefs, patriotism, ethnic ties, or what have you, as an excuse for their terrorist acts, but the real reason is probably something else. Because you're right--if what I really want is to get you to join my religion, I'd have to be completely out of my mind to think that blowing up innocent bystanders is an effective means of persuasion.

As for the rest of your questions, maybe I'll revisit the thread in a few months, after I've seen more.

[–] Oneohtrixxx 10 years ago

Kind of off point, but they show towards the end of season 4 of BSG that Cavil was the one more or less steering the Cylons, while the original First Cylon didn't really have the intention of wiping out humanity. That's what I took from it, at least. I haven't watched Caprica yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

[–] jakeconhale 10 years ago

The BSG Cylon god angle is a distinctly different discussion, but in short they thought humanity had strayed so far from God's grace that there was no possibility of redemption, better to just put them out of their misery so the more civilized Cylons could take their place. If the Colonials were capable of thinking the whole issue through, they'd not only agree with the Cylons but thank them for the nuclear haulocaust.

As for Caprica -

I don't think the STO was ever supposed to be about conversion, instead about striking against perceived wrongs committed against the monotheistic church. There isn't much history to debate either way, but my impression is that when Clarice first joined, the Mono Church was under some form of attack or discrimination by the polytheists, she excelled under the program and got out into the field.

Eventually, it became fashionable to "tolerate" both churches, perhaps people just got tired of the stress/chaos and figured "fine, we'll let you be". Wasn't it said in the pilot that STO had been dormant for some time?

Now, I don't think the Church retired the STO, in case something came up where the STO were once more useful (better to have and not need...), but at least two cell leaders (Clarice and Barnabas) started acting out. Barnabas just wanted to see things burn, Clarice used her religious zealotry as a means to gain power.

Obal chastizes Clarice, saying she should leave recruitment and soul saving to the professionals (i.e. actual priests).

Clarice met Zoe, saw what Zoe had created, and saw her chance for advancement. She could be the leader of virtual heaven, she was the blessed one who brought divinity down from Heaven, a messiah. So she prompted Zoe to go to Geminon with both the Avatar-creation program and an actual Avatar to demonstrate. Perhaps Barnabas heard about what Clarice was doing and talked Stark into blowing the train simply to stop her.

I haven't watched all the episodes along with you, but I did see Unvanquished. I got the distinct impression the Mother was horribly afraid of Clarice, but didn't have the support needed to get rid of her, so she supported Clarice to bide time until things changed.

As for the initial issue between the monotheists and the polytheists - the monos see the polytheists as corrupt, hedonistic, violent, uncivilized. They have no sense of morality beyond self-interest. What was the V-world but an expression of what the Colonials wanted? They had a blank slate to create anything they wanted and they made orgies, shooting galleries, russian roulette, gambling, etc.

The monos (or at least some of them) see the polytheists as members of Sodom and Gamorrah, well deserving of God's cleansing fire.

Where the polytheists used the V-world for destructive purposes, the monotheists use it to help people, to create their own slice of heaven.

Those are my thoughts, anyways.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] madp 10 years ago

by jakeconhale » If the Colonials were capable of thinking the whole issue through, they'd not only agree with the Cylons but thank them for the nuclear haulocaust.

I never got that impression. To me the Cylons were nothing but a bunch of uncontrolled religious zealots, and, because of that, should've been exterminated themselves. Sure, the colonial society had problems, but it was far from the nightmare the holocaust "solution" suggests. They had a thriving society that could've accomplished wonders and eventually might even come to accept Cylons as their equals. To me, Cylons are ultimate villains, worse than the Borg!

[–] jakeconhale 10 years ago

That statement was meant to convey the Cylon's perspective, paraphrased from a scene in The Plan while the Cylons were nuking the Twelve Colonies.

The Cylons were duped and had a revolution of their own once they realized their mistake.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] madp 10 years ago

by jakeconhale » The Cylons were duped and had a revolution of their own once they realized their mistake.

OK, that makes things a little better, though it's, as they say, too little, too late for some "Oopsy daisy,,, Our Bad! sorry for the holocaust mess." Just for the record, I still hate Cylons.

As for Caprica -
(...)
Clarice met Zoe, saw what Zoe had created, and saw her chance for advancement. She could be the leader of virtual heaven, she was the blessed one who brought divinity down from Heaven, a messiah. So she prompted Zoe to go to Geminon with both the Avatar-creation program and an actual Avatar to demonstrate. Perhaps Barnabas heard about what Clarice was doing and talked Stark into blowing the train simply to stop her.

Very interesting observations, thank you. This certainly helps put things in perspective. I hadn't considered the possibility the mag-lev attack was Barnabas's work, not Clarice's. I guess we'll never know for sure.

[–] jakeconhale 10 years ago

Wasn't it explicitly stated that Stark was a member of Barnabas's cell? Either by Keon or someone, I could have sworn it was said at somepoint. (Or perhaps through Keon, weren't they friends?)

Anyways, Clarice always seemed against explosions, calling them "premature" and such, while Barnabas was all for it.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] jakeconhale 10 years ago

Apologies for the double post, but more thoughts.

I haven't been watching this along with you, relying on memory and some episode transcripts, but here's what I recall...

Lacy knows about STO through Zoe and Ben.
According to a pilot transcript, Ben introduced Zoe and Lacy to the STO
She doesn't know who Zoe and Ben are working with, and is surprised to find out about Clarice.
Clarice seems to know about Ben, saying he did something premature and unauthorized. Possibly learned that through Zoe.
Lacy discovers Keon as he was "Ben's best friend" and looks shifty during a locker search by the GDD.
Zoe-A, as I recall, tells Lacy not to let Clarice know about the avatar, so she reaches out to Keon about how to get things to Geminon.
Keon doesn't know about Clarice, directs Lacy to Barnabas.

Also, in Reins of a Waterfall, Keon didn't know about Clarice, but in Gravedancing, Clarice sends Keon a text warning about the upcoming GDD raid. So, somehow Clarice was aware of Keon but he may or may not known of her. Lacy could have told her, or it could have just been S.T.O. policy to let her know as the Academy was her domain.

Still, Keon was STO without knowing of Clarice, so he and Ben must have been part of Barnabas's cell. Keon lists Ben, Pann, Hypolita - the latter two of which are definitely part of Barnabas' group, apparently recruited from Clarice's ranks based on what she said to Pann before electrocuting him.

Thus, Barnabas had contact with Ben. I wouldn't have been surprised if Barnabas was responsible for the tickets for getting to Geminon. He may have only thought it was 3 passengers, but I think Ben told Barnabas about the avatar program. Barnabas didn't seem the sort to let things pass.

I dunno, perhaps Clarice only got involved when Zoe showed her the avatar program. Think of it - Clarice spots suitable candidates, passes the information to Barnabas (or some other contact) who then recruits them. Clarice's position isn't exposed yet can look out for the operatives. Zoe just happened to run into the only other STO operator in the local area. Clarice sees the possibility, encourages Zoe to go to Geminon as it's the Holy Land (and helping Clarice prep for demonstrating Apotheosis).

Perhaps Clarice worked with Barnabas to grease the skids for the tickets to Geminon, unwittingly setting him against her leading to Ben blowing up the train.

Still, that's a pretty major action to take. It's one thing to blow up the train, but another to blow it up with someone he ostensibly cared about also on the train. He knew about the Avatar, we saw him in the V-Club. My conclusion is that Barnabas convinced him that the Avatar was unholy and needed to be destroyed, which overrode his feelings for Zoe (or perhaps even thought he was helping to save her in the process).

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] robertegblack 10 years ago

How did the STO justify suicidal terrorism in the name of their "loving God"?

it doesn't really have to make sense, but it is entirely realistic. religious zealots from many religions have turned to suicide and/or terrorism to defend their religion/lash out and their detractors

what exactly was so corrupt and decadent about the polytheistic colonies that required such a drastic religious revolution

remember what they do with their holobands--they hang out at sex clubs, they murder one another. caprican society is played like roman scoeity, so "advanced" that they have a lot of spare time to delve into their most base urges. sure, in this case, it is virtual, but morally, from the STO's perspective, that is the same as doing it for real. hell, maybe it's worse because it's hedonism without consequences

-author of the groundhog day project (groundhogdayproject.com)-

[–] President_Ackbar_Impeached 10 years ago

http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/the-boston-marathon-bombin g-why-terrorism-works

http://markmanson.net/terrorism

[–] Observer_2020 9 years ago

You can't really expect STO to operate logically. The whole point was to explore religious radicalism and the link between terrorism and religious extremism. The obvious modern-day reference is to Islamic extremist groups like Al Qaeda and ISIL/ISIS/IS. But there have been many other religious extremist groups throughout history that have resorted to violence, for whatever reasons. No, it doesn't always make sense, but it has been a part of human history for thousands of years, and it's a relevant subject in the modern world.

Because the producers didn't want the BSG universe and Caprica to be a one-for-one fill-in-the-blanks description of the modern world, they expanded on the topic and turned it into a monotheism vs. polytheism battle too. That conflict reminded me an awful lot of what it must have been like in the later days of the Roman Empire. Like Caprica, the Roman Empire was powerful and wealthy. They practiced polytheism, but a new monotheistic religion was taking root, and also being suppressed, similar to the way the monotheist religion was suppressed on the show.

The writers weren't making up fanciful motives and actions here. Everything that they depicted is the type of attitudes and actions that have happened numerous times in human history, on a grand scale and on a smaller scale. This is part of the reason why they included the saying, "All this has happened before, and it will happen again." Beyond just the application in the BSG universe, it says something about our own human history, that this is something that keeps happening over and over again, and we still haven't figured it out.

[–] Mazryonh 9 years ago

You can't really expect STO to operate logically. The whole point was to explore religious radicalism and the link between terrorism and religious extremism.

I'm still at a loss for what the STO's beef with Colonial society on a whole is. Other users have said that they didn't like the "moral degeneration" caused by holobands, but do you get people to wise up to that by bombing and shooting them? No, you send them into treatment.

In nBSG they made up the Cylon's plan as they went along. They couldn't have done so too much this time around, because as a prequel they have an established canon to work with already. What I'm lacking is the STO's overriding principles and plans. Did an STO member get the idea to start terrorism because they met a "messenger" ("Head Baltar" or "Head Six" from nBSG) who gave that member a dire warning, and then the member misinterpreted the message as "start terrorism activities"? Or did a member of the monotheistic church write a manifesto that guides the STO's actions or something? And how exactly do they intend to "win" against the polytheistic mainstream? Or have their ideology fit in nicely with the Cylon god's plans in nBSG?

[–] mpadpy 9 years ago

I think the STO was one persons idea of what others should be doing, ie following one god and to behave in a certain way. One of things in that quest was to show people there is an after life that in the guise of an avatar lives on after you in a virtual paradise. Those who die in the cause gets reborn while others just die. Ofcourse she knew it was not a real after life as she said no when it was her chance to die. I always wondered how some fundamentalists think they can die in the cause and they can end up torturing 13 virgins in paradise for eternity.. There are others where they they dont think such things but they are willing to die for their cause for their children. They also believe if you died protecting your home, it is an honorable death. Like the samurai culture believed that to die now honorably was preferable to die old and without honor. So none of them went to their deaths expecting rewards for themselves but for their families. There are also people who will go to their deaths because they do it for god and country.. To maintain their lifestyle and empire. I am surprised people in the west think any kind of death is poison, yet for the last 500 years we have seen how people would go to find far away lands so their country and king can live in a certain life style. We only hear of the successful ones but the dozens of others for each success who died of disease and what not was not something people looked forward to. But without them the world would not be what it is today. And the west would not have progressed as much as it has. What they did in most cases was certain suicide.

In the first people, they were hypothesizing that, if there is hope then people will go to certain death and that is how humans conquered the planet.. Because only 1 in a 100 lived to tell the tale. To reach places like Australia the chances were even more remote.. I am sure they even reached Antarctica but died off since they reached every other place.. Places like new zealand is so remote that finding it even in this day and age is almost impossible. So only a small thin line differentiates those willing to die now and those that will die later..

[–] mimosveta 9 years ago

that's funny, but all these questions could be asked about god of abraham irl.

___
Anyone who has ever read any spoilers,
knows that Winter Is Coming

[–] philoj 8 years ago

I found it very interesting to see Clarice at the end preaching to the Cylons, breeding hatred of humanity.

That is a very real personality type - breeding hatred of some target group in order to establish your own power base. I've even heard some megalomaniac ran for leader of his nation primarily on the shoulders of inciting hatred against a specific religious group.

When "hate the polytheists; love the one true God" fell through, then she moved on to "hate the humans; love the one true God that embraces you"

--
Philo's Law: To learn from your mistakes, you have to realize you're making mistakes.