MovieChat Forums > Senseless Discussion > logical error - spoiler warning

logical error - spoiler warning


this was a horrible movie since it was so unbelievably pointless, even or a horror movie. if it wasn't then i might not raise this question, but let's think about one thing for a second:

so, the torture is shown as a livestream on the internet and is being watched by so many people that even the crowd he meets as he leaves the building at the end of the movie instantly recognise him. that musst mean that like 80% of the population must have seen it or something about it.

also, this building he is trapped in seems to be in a larger town somewhere in the UK.

- so if this is streamed on the internet, right? how long would it take until government shuts it off? like 5 minutes after it is known publicly?
- there are like 5 PCs with internet connections in the control room. it would take police like half a day at maximum to trace the IPs and find out where it is located and arrest all people involved
- the building where he is trapped is right in the middle of a larger town. so nobody heard him scream in agony? really? the fake walls weren't even sound proofed in any way
- with that said it seems like the walls were actually like 5 inches big and from a cheap material. so, somebody that has just been tortured beyondbelief wouldn't find the material and strength to crack through this walls? are you kidding me?
- after the first turture session he didn't instantly tried to kill the girl or for that matter anybody that tries to enter the door? really?

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[deleted]

"This is why, as filmmaker, certain people piss me off when it comes to movies. Why can't people just ACCEPT as-is, instead of ripping things to shreds and always feeling the need to 'point out' the little things.. "

this is why, as a movie fan, certain people piss me off when it comes to movies. why can't people just accept when a piece of art completely fails.

first of all if the complete storyline of a movie does not make sense then that is not a small bit, it is a basic element. also it depends on what kind of movie you are claiming to do.

this movie was either meant as a horror film/ a drama/ a social comment/ a thriller or whatever. to be honest even that point does not become clear within the whole movie. it was a pointless mish-mash.

you don't see me moaning about friday the 13th or last action hero. why? because in their genres of light entertainment they are allright. they aren't presented as something they are not. i don't neccessarily like both named movies, but i would not say something against them as they simply WORK! if i wanted then i could bomb ya with logical errors, but what would be the point of that? that's like pointing out that carpets can't fly when it comes to disney's alladdin.

this here is different. if "torture movie" would be an acceptable genre then we might have a hit here, but if it was, then what would be next? "rape movie" as an acceptable genre?

this flick is wrong on so many level, i could write an essay about it. wanna know what's wrong with the ffilm scene in general nowadays? this movie!

"Isn't it just possible to just 'sink' into the writer's/director's world and vision without this nonsense?"

yes, it is. if it makes ANY point!!

"It it didn't do it for you, then fine, it didn;t do it for you. "

nope, it is not about me not liking this movie. it is about having watched a movie that is so completely WRONG.

"But damn dude, buy yourself a package of Oreoes, sit on your couch and just let the film do it's job!"

been there, done that, gotten angry, wrote some valid points down.
i can enjoy all kinds of movies, ranging from american pie (ultra light entertainment), over cyrano(light), oldboy (more heavy) up to funny games (heavy). that also includes "breaking the boudaries" cinema like the guinea pigs series.

BUT BUT BUT ... a bad script is a bad script, it doesn't matter how you turn it.

and to use the old excuse of "just try to enjoy" to justify the existence of this piece of crap is just pathetic. if i mess up a roofing job i can not say to my clients "why so angry? just sit back and enjoy the roof".

moviemaking is an art and a craftmenship. there are slobs and there are pros.

"If you want to pick things apart, study up on our current war in Iraq. "

oooh, trust me. i know about our current "war" in iraq and the word "war" doesn't even apply in this case.

peace out.

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"that's like pointing out that carpets can't fly when it comes to disney's alladdin."
-See, to filmisdead, that IS what you're doing. He, like I, would consider this light entertainment, and any logical errors can be overlooked in favor of entertainment. Seems you're both well versed enough in movies, so I can see both sides, but this wasn't trying to be funny games, it was more akin to SAW.

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN 'SAW' YET:

Some good gore, and grounded in reality (with some suspension of disbelief) with a morality tale, but with logic errors (the ones you mentioned in this movie, and the fact they would've seen him breathing on the ground in SAW.)

So you're both right if that makes sense. It all depends on how you look at this movie...

"Look, it's not that i'm lazy, it's that I just don't care..." - Peter Gibbons

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light entertainment???? how in the world is watching a guy getting tortured for 90 minutes without a valid plotline be light entertainment???

how is that alone entertaining? that's like saying hard candy, funny games, cache, benny's video, men behind the sun, the guinea pigs series, red room 1 & 2 .. etc are light entertainment. they simply aren't. this isn't even up for discussion. if you are entertained by torture then that is simply wrong. this factor can not be overlooked. if you go THAT far as a movie maker to shock people then there HAS to be a valid reason for it.

this is no thrillride/horror experience like nightmare on elm street, friday the 13th ...etc if you want to compare it to other horror movies. those named series are "light entertainment".sit down, get a kick outta it and that'S allright.

in this movie up close we see a guy get tortured ALL THE TIME for no valid reason. it is not the same.

"but this wasn't trying to be funny games"

yes, EXACTLY!!!!! and that's where this movie goes wrong. if the whole movie consists of stuff like that then you NEEEEEEED a reason for it. look at "irreversible" for example. a great movie, but a torture to watch, BUT there are reasons why exactly that movie was made like that. imagine the 2 most disgusting moments of "irreversible" stretched to 90 minutes and completely cutting out the plot. that would also not be light entertainment, it would be WRONG and an embarrassement. exactly that's the problem with "senseless".

ok, now that you have brought "saw" up. NOW imagine that saw would not have ended like it has, but instead both guys cutting off their feet in an agonizing 45 minute close up and imagine that they had taken out the fascinating plotline. imagine only seing the trap scenes in full length without any major plot behind it. how good would that be?

thank you for your interesting input, but NO this movie is indeed a catastrophy.

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Like the intensity, it's good when 2 people passionate about film can speak freely, and sorry for the late reply.

You say: how in the world is watching a guy getting tortured for 90 minutes without a valid plotline be light entertainment???"

Then admit that it's not trying to be like Funny Games (one of my all time favorite flicks by the way). You kinda answered your own question there...

"NOW imagine that saw would not have ended like it has, but instead both guys cutting off their feet in an agonizing 45 minute close up and imagine that they had taken out the fascinating plotline. imagine only seing the trap scenes in full length without any major plot behind it. how good would that be?"
-All opinion here. If it was done well and had enough tension, 2 dudes cutting off their feet for 45 mins could be entertaining enough to some. For some 'gore hounds', nothing but traps would be 'their kind of movie', just cause it's not 'your kind of flick' doesn't mean it's any less of a valid movie. It's like complaining about a romantic comedy having no plot, that's not what it's about, nor what the target audience even WANTS...

And how did this not have a good enough plot line? Your gripes seem to be about what they DO with the plot, not about the plot itself, so there's no use bringing that into it now...


"Hey homeless man, move it. This is where i'm setting my D's. My big flaming D's"

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[deleted]

I just watched this movie and read this thread. I wonder what was said to get that post deleted. I mostly agree with you, but I do think it was a little like Funny Game, which I hated. What made this movie a little better than Funny Games, to me, was the fact that he survived and could still see. If he had been completely blinded or killed, then I would have hated this movie, too.

As I was watching it I was thinking if they kill him I'm gonna be p!ssed. I like my horror to have a semi happy ending. Because of this ending, I can say that I liked this movie. But I wasn't sure as I was watching it if I could say I liked it, until the end. Then I was releived.

I like the Saw movies because it doesn't feel too real. It's kind of over-the-top. Funny Games was too real. Senseless felt real, too, but the ending made the all difference to me.






"You ate her, too. So why don't you kill yourself?"
"M for Mischa!"

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no offense, but i think you did not fully understand "funny games".

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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no offense, but i think you did not fully understand "funny games".


I know this comment wasn't addressed at me, but,

a) Funny Games, crap...

and

b) That kind of comment, I think you did not fully understand the movie, is pompous crap, in and of itself.

I already pointed out a subtlety (in my first post to you) of "Senseless" that evidently went over your head.

But if I want to read about Funny Games, I'd haunt that there board. I'd just started reading IMDb on Senseless and keep seeing you ranting about that crap movie.

Oh yeah, 1 guy liked it and the 1 who didn't you insulted.

I will now go about reading more opinions on Senseless. I know it didn't get a great rating so I expect some more negativity, but I thought it was pretty damn good myself.

Certainly better than (say it with me now):

Funny Games, crap... ;-)

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therefdot.com -- I have seen your posts on other threads here and so will repeat this. You are an idiot.

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lol. as much as you are trying to make me seem biased, your post falls apart in itself. there is a difference between objectively criticising a craft and stating opinion. obviously youbare confusing one for the other. you should really try to learn differentiate.

to explain it to you in simple terms:

i did not like "home alone", but i still have to admit that it is a very well done.

do you u derstand the difference?

if yes, i will give ypu another try to answer, but please at least try to put some actual arguments in there.

let me help you with that as well.

first you need to have an actual argument that you want to bring up, then you can start by stating your thesis, which you then have to give weight by expanding on as to why that thesis is true and finish it off with a plausible conclusion.

anyway, i am glad that you liked this junk.

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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that's like saying hard candy, funny games, cache, benny's video, men behind the sun, the guinea pigs series, red room 1 & 2 .. etc are light entertainment. they simply aren't. this isn't even up for discussion.


Funny Games, crap...
(oh wait I said that already ;-) )

"but this wasn't trying to be funny games"

yes, EXACTLY!!!!! and that's where this movie goes wrong.


Funny Games, crap...

Hint: if you want to point out a better movie, don't point out crap.

While Senseless had a simple plot, it was hardly crap.

but NO this movie is indeed a catastrophy.


And hardly a catastrophy. It was hard-hitting, shocking, and had that "stay with you" factor. Something I can't say about a lot of movies.

Pardon me while I clear my throat, ahemFunnyGames, crap...ahem. There, I feel better. ;-)



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i can enjoy all kinds of movies, ranging from american pie (ultra light entertainment), over cyrano(light), oldboy (more heavy) up to funny games (heavy). that also includes "breaking the boudaries" cinema like the guinea pigs series.


Saw American Pie, the first one was pretty good, a couple others, not so much...
Saw Oldboy, enjoyed it.
Funny Games, crap...

moviemaking is an art and a craftmenship. there are slobs and there are pros.


And movie-critiquing is like opinions, everyone has one - often very divergent ones...

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So...Is it just me or are both sides of this argument total doucherockets?

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its just you, but you knew that before you posted, didn't you? ;)

so far there hasn't been a discussion, but i invite anyone with a solid argument to bring it up.

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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so, the torture is shown as a livestream on the internet and is being watched by so many people that even the crowd he meets as he leaves the building at the end of the movie instantly recognise him. that musst mean that like 80% of the population must have seen it or something about it.


Sorry for being late to this discussion, but I just saw the movie, Senseless..

Don't you think 80% of the population (at least) know about:

9/11?
The tsunami?
The recent Japan earthquake/tsunami?
Hurricane Katrina?
The Gulf oil spill?
Saddawm Hussein's capture?
I could go on - but when an event captures the media - as this movie clearly said the torture did...

- so if this is streamed on the internet, right? how long would it take until government shuts it off? like 5 minutes after it is known publicly?
- there are like 5 PCs with internet connections in the control room. it would take police like half a day at maximum to trace the IPs and find out where it is located and arrest all people involved


AhemWikileaksahem...

- after the first turture session he didn't instantly tried to kill the girl or for that matter anybody that tries to enter the door? really?


He thought the girl was sympathetic but powerless to stop his torture.

Gast was not really a "bad person" and this shows it. I guess that was a texture of the movie that went over your head? ;-)

More on your other post(s)

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bump.

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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I agree with all your posts theref. In fact I can only imagine jabber is in the production team
-he spends a LOT of time defedning this undefendable movie
-equal time attacking those who put valid arguments against it.

Don't bother trying to convince him- his bad English and lack of analytical skills point towards him being the writer of Senseless.

I love films in confined spaces and few characters, this has to be the least interesting I've seen. About the other films you mention theref, I'm in complete agreeemnt apart from Hard Candy- the very last shot SPOILERS after he commits suicide and she screams "NOT" SPOILERS END makes me think this was made from a feminist point of view, encouraging and supportign all the acts- I think it's the antithesis of Funny Games and the message against violence and revenge that Haneke put forth.

myspace.com/bankrupteuropeans

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

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if theref is an idiot...you must be one too.

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Yeah like i said i agree with him 100%.

myspace.com/bankrupteuropeans

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

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Your logic errors are unfortunately gaps in your intelligence.

You are trying too hard.

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good boy, shill on.

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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I'm a fan of this movie and let me attempt to answer your questions:

============
- so if this is streamed on the internet, right? how long would it take until government shuts it off? like 5 minutes after it is known publicly?
- there are like 5 PCs with internet connections in the control room. it would take police like half a day at maximum to trace the IPs and find out where it is located and arrest all people involved

------
The movie is based on a novel quite faithfully. According to the book, the group has some computer geniuses who hijack random websites to publish the videos. The same way how Hackers Anonymous recently hijacked The United States Sentencing Commission website to revenge the death of Aaron Swartz.


============
- the building where he is trapped is right in the middle of a larger town. so nobody heard him scream in agony? really? the fake walls weren't even sound proofed in any way
- with that said it seems like the walls were actually like 5 inches big and from a cheap material. so, somebody that has just been tortured beyond belief wouldn't find the material and strength to crack through this walls? are you kidding me?

------
The cell walls aren't sound proof, because the book describes that Elliott can hear people chattering, phone ringing, and fax machines, etc just beyond the walls. The building however can totally be sound proof though - it looks like a rather large industrial warehouse.

Even if Elliott tries to break down walls, he wouldn't have succeeded for a few reasons:

1) lack of strength - he was fed strictly vegetarian meals (thin plain rice soup, per book). At the beginning he was shown to have a belly, towards the end he was skin on bones;

2) he is constantly drugged by pain medication, and always under surveillance. At one point he tried to burn down the place and you know what happened right?

3) watch carefully, at approximately 1:14 into the movie it shows an area of wall with its paint or wall pager peeled off, where silver colored steel-looking (sheet metal?) material is revealed.

============
- after the first torture session he didn't instantly tried to kill the girl or for that matter anybody that tries to enter the door? really?

------
It's called Stockholm Syndrome or "good cop/bad cop technique". The girl pretends to be friendly & empathetic over all others. It was the only reason the victim didn't go insane after all the loneliness, boredom, despair, and extreme torture sessions. The poor guy really believed she was his only hope and working on his release. There was a moment when he was waving the sock/shower-head weapon to prevent being subdued, but stopped dead when he was about to hit the girl's face. The evil girl actually led him to believe that she was in trouble for "helping" him, so the poor guy worried about her safety in spite of his own ordeal.

Oh I think he tried many times to attack or out run the captors who walked into the doors. I think you should try that yourself, after weeks of rice soup and pain killers, with just a pair of shoes and a safety razor.









"It's the inside that matters" - WTF? That's against human nature.

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"According to the book, the group has some computer geniuses who hijack random websites to publish the videos. The same way how Hackers Anonymous recently hijacked The United States Sentencing Commission website to revenge the death of Aaron Swartz. "

not the same. they have him online 24/7 with a voting system in place. would be traced in under 5 minutes.

"The cell walls aren't sound proof, because the book describes that Elliott can hear people chattering, phone ringing, and fax machines, etc just beyond the walls. The building however can totally be sound proof though - it looks like a rather large industrial warehouse. "

the larger the complex, the harder to make it soundproof. we are shown the walls, they are not sound proof. it is basic concrete at best.

"Even if Elliott tries to break down walls, he wouldn't have succeeded for a few reasons:

1) lack of strength - he was fed strictly vegetarian meals (thin plain rice soup, per book). At the beginning he was shown to have a belly, towards the end he was skin on bones;

2) he is constantly drugged by pain medication, and always under surveillance. At one point he tried to burn down the place and you know what happened right?

3) watch carefully, at approximately 1:14 into the movie it shows an area of wall with its paint or wall pager peeled off, where silver colored steel-looking (sheet metal?) material is revealed. "

i don't know about the book, but have you seen the ones in the film? you could kick a hole in there with your bare foot.

1) the old cliche of vegetarian meals leading to lack of strength. simply ridiculous.
2) so?
3) sorry, i will not watch this crap again. a) it still leaves the door and b) kick DOWN one wall. this crap was like only 2 meters high. it also leaves the connections of the walls and the connections between walls and doors. this isn't welded and then coated. if they wanted it to be, they should have made it look like that. the walls look like styrofoam. not to speak of the fact that they are like 2 meters high and he could just climb them.

"t's called Stockholm Syndrome or "good cop/bad cop technique". The girl pretends to be friendly & empathetic over all others. It was the only reason the victim didn't go insane after all the loneliness, boredom, despair, and extreme torture sessions. The poor guy really believed she was his only hope and working on his release. There was a moment when he was waving the sock/shower-head weapon to prevent being subdued, but stopped dead when he was about to hit the girl's face. The evil girl actually led him to believe that she was in trouble for "helping" him, so the poor guy worried about her safety in spite of his own ordeal.
"

please lookup "stockholme syndrom". that's not the case here. good cop/bad cop is an interrogation technique, that's all. they did not tray to get any infos out of him. not the case here.


"Oh I think he tried many times to attack or out run the captors who walked into the doors. I think you should try that yourself, after weeks of rice soup and pain killers, with just a pair of shoes and a safety razor.
"

you can bet that i would either be dead or free after the first torture incident.

also, it has been a while since i watched this insult on celluloid. did they really give him painkillers? wow, that would have made the film/book even more idiotic. first they do everything to make the torture as horrible as possible and then they give him facking painkillers????????????? why not also give him a spa and a waterbed?

edit: he hears facking "phones and faxmachines" through the walls?????? that makes it even more ridiculous. it is hard enough to hide your identity through the internet for over 5 minutes, but phone lines????? you know fast they had the cops raiding the building? also, what would they need phones and faxes for????

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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Lots of people like this movie and you're not going to change that. Get over it and go on with your life.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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and still you took the time write this post. <3

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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Yeah.... and?

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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isn't that nice?

"laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone." - Dae-su Oh

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Indubitably.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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