MovieChat Forums > The Messenger (2009) Discussion > One thing that didn't make sense...

One thing that didn't make sense...

posted 14 years ago by CaliManDan35
12 replies | jump to latest

Woody Harrelson's character made it very clear from the start that the one thing you do NOT do is make any physical contact or hug the family or next of kin that you are notifying. But mid-way through the movie when they inform Olivia that her husband is dead, and Ben Foster's character starts taking a liking to her it shows Woody Harrelson joking about Ben Foster trying to have sex with her. Which means Harrelson obviously knows that Ben Foster has taken a liking to her and has been going over to her house to see her and is developing feelings for her (all completely against protocol that Harrelson himself explained). But he doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Yet later in the movie when Harrelson and Foster are in the store together and Foster sees the father of the dead soldier and notifies him. Foster puts his arm around the mother and starts helping her up off the ground and keeps his arm around her. After they walk outside Harrelson's character FLIPS OUT and starts shoving Foster and yelling at him and cussing at him telling him that he should NEVER touch the family.

Once again...why is he completely okay with Foster actually going over to Olivia's house and trying to sleep with her...but is not okay with Foster putting his arm around the mother?

Just doesn't make sense...

[–] C.S.Wood 14 years ago

The difference, as I see it, is that Foster didn't go off book while informing Morton's character. Yes, it's obvious he took an interest, but he pretty much stuck to protocol and later on Harrelson gives him the 3rd degree about going over to her house, but he denies anything illicit (plus, I'm guessing Harrelson's character didn't mind that much if he was trying to have sex with her because that's something he could relate to).

However, when it came to the older parents, Foster goes completely off book and blatantly touches them. And on top of it Foster gives Harrelson lip about it.

http://stuffblackpeopledig.wordpress.com/

[–] murph24 14 years ago

I agree. What concerned Stone (Harrelson's character) was that correct procedures be followed at the moment the next-of-kin is informed of a soldier's death. He wasn't quite as concerned with what transpired with the next-of-kin a few days, weeks, or months later (however, that didn't prevent him from telling Will that his interest in Olivia was morally questionable). But during the moment of notification, strict procedures had to be followed. And except for that moment in the store, Will followed them.

[–] Heidichuu 14 years ago

That's not it. If you watch that scene again you'll notice the way Stone is looking at Will tells us he sees something inside his partner that surprises him. The compassion that Will shows is something Stone has not been able to offer the people he is informing. He knows his job is difficult and feels he can't connect with the people he contacts because a certain professionalism has been instilled in him, so he brings that levelheadedness with him when he makes a visit. Connecting emotionally with the NOK would put him in a vulnerable position although it is what he obviously wishes he could do.

He was mad at Will for doing something he hadn't yet been able to. To be there for another human being during trying times, not just deliver a message.

[–] zwot 14 years ago

I agree with Heidichuu. In the argument that ensues the NOK-touching, Stone's anger peaks when Will makes it clear that he can achieve a level of empathy that Stone cannot match.

Stone, true to his name, is much more emotionally suppressed than Will. That's why Stone's eventual emotional breakdown, when he cries on the couch while Will is fetching drinks from the refrigerator, is so much more intense than any of Will's emotional outbreaks. For Stone, the floodgates finally burst open in that scene.

[–] murph24 14 years ago

Everything you've described comes across quite clearly - all we were doing was pointing out what triggered Stone's anger (and what made it different from the other situation described by the OP).

Remember, Stone is already volcanic before Will suggests he's the more open and emotionally balanced of the two; Stone had gotten physical with him before that. Maybe they were just "shoves," but they showed how Stone had already crossed a dangerous line - and it was because Will had deviated from procedure. The fact that he revealed a few truths in the process just stoked Stone's rage.

[–] zwot 14 years ago

all we were doing was pointing out what triggered Stone's anger (and what made it different from the other situation described by the OP).

Yes, and like Heidichuu said in reponse to the answers you and C.S.Wood gave to the OP, "That's not it." I still agree with Heidichuu.

As the OP himself stated, "Harrelson's character FLIPS OUT." So clearly there's something more at play here than just the obvious violation of protocol. If that's all it was, the normal reaction would've been merely a stern reprimand.

Remember, Stone is already volcanic before Will suggests he's the more open and emotionally balanced of the two.

Yes, and what would cause Stone to have such a volcanic reaction even before Will began arguing with him? The answer to that question is in Heidichuu's post. In my post, I merely said this volcanic reaction "peaks" during the argument, I didn't say the argument sparked the reaction.

[–] murph24 14 years ago

Yes, and like Heidichuu said in reponse to the answers you and C.S.Wood gave to the OP, "That's not it." I still agree with Heidichuu.

Sorry, but the OP asked a simple question - why did Stone have a problem the way Will handled one situation, but not the other. C.S. Wood and I correctly pointed out the difference between the two.

Stone flipped out because Will hadn't followed procedure in the market sequence. Now, the reasons why Stone was so adamant about this procedure could reside in the points brought up by you and Heidichuu. Still, it goes without saying that Stone flipped out because Will hadn't followed procedure - that's a given.

And though there are certainly areas in which Stone is emotionally closed off, I wouldn't make any generalizations about him. Remember, once their blow-up has occurred, it's Stone who makes the first move toward reconciliation - not Will.

I'm not saying you and Heidichuu are wrong; the two of you could be absolutely right about why Stone is so addicted to this procedure. But there's no question that Stone flips out after the market sequence because Will didn't follow procedure; he didn't follow the protocol that Stone had very specifically laid down.

The reasons why Stone is so adamant about this procedure is a subject for another debate. But it wasn't the question asked by the OP.

[–] zwot 14 years ago

But there's no question that Stone flips out after the market sequence because Will didn't follow procedure; he didn't follow the protocol that Stone had very specifically laid down.

If you go back and read the OP's question, you'll see he acknowledges that Will didn't follow protocol in either situation: touching the NOK and hitting on the widow later. The OP's question isn't as simple as you claim, and neither is the answer. The mere timing of Will's protocol violations doesn't explain Stone's wildly differing reactions, which is what the OP actually asks about.

Once again...why is he completely okay with Foster actually going over to Olivia's house and trying to sleep with her...but is not okay with Foster putting his arm around the mother?

That's the OP's question. And if you think back to Stone's initial lecture on protocol to Will, you'll realize that hitting on Olivia is the greater of the two violations. Stone, in his lecture, was adamant about respect for the fallen. That's what the CNO job was all about, according to Stone. Disrespecting a fallen soldier by moving in on his widow is far worse than touching the arm of the soldier's grieving mother. So why didn't Stone react so viscerally to this egregious act of disrespect? Because Stone's a horndog without any meaningful relationships and when he sees Will engaging in what Stone assumes is similar horndog behavior, Stone doesn't get terribly upset. But when he sees Will show compassion, something Stone isn't capable of, he gets furious. Stone's reactions are all about Stone, which is appropriate in a person who struggles with compassion.

The posts by Heidichuu and myself only addressed the second half of the OP's question. Perhaps by my addressing the first half in this post, the complete answer will swing you 'round to my way of thinking. If not, that's OK, too. I really only discuss films on these boards to clarify my own understanding.

[–] murph24 14 years ago

Yes, but the most important instruction Stone gave Will (he saved it for last) was to not touch the relatives of those KIA at the moment notification is being made. He didn't have any procedures for Will to follow regarding romantic involvement with those related to the KIA; still, he had a negative opinion on the subject, which he shared with Will.

And that's the difference between the two situations raised by the OP. This is the question that was answered by both C.S. Wood and me.

It's not correct to say "That's not it" when someone states that Stone lost it with Will because Will hadn't followed procedure. Let's face it - if Will had followed procedure in the store, then Stone wouldn't have lost it; it's as simple as that. Once again, you and Heidichuu are providing relevant information, but suggesting that C.S. Wood and I are wrong in our postings is incorrect. We were simply answering the OP's question. What you and Heidichuu are talking about are the reasons why this procedure was so important to Stone. You could be absolutely right about these reasons, but they don't negate the main point here - Stone lost it the store because Will hadn't followed procedure.

C.S. Wood and I were told by Heidichuu "That's not it," when, in fact, what we'd written about the differences between the two situations was absolutely correct. Just wanted to point that out.

[–] zwot 14 years ago

This isn't a plot-driven movie. It's a character piece, and to answer the OP's question one must consider what makes the character tick. The answer given by you and C.S. Wood only looks at surface facts, without considering why the character acts the way he does. That's why "That's not it" is a valid objection to your position.

Read the OP's whole post again, notice its emphasis on Stone's contradictory behavior, and be honest with yourself: have you really answered the OP's question, or are you just annoyed at being contradicted?

[–] murph24 14 years ago

The answer given by you and C.S. Wood only looks at surface facts...

Yes, and "surface facts" answered the OP's question. "Surface facts" explained the difference between the two situations; one was directly connected to their job, while the other concerned Will's private life. Stone's instructions to Will (regarding the former) couldn't have been more explicit -

CAPTAIN TONY STONE: One more thing - you do not touch the N.O.K. Avoid physical contact with the next of kin, unless its a medical emergency, like if they're having a heart attack or something. You are representing the secretary of the Army, not Will Montgomery. So in case you feel like offering a hug or something - don't. It will only get you in trouble.

Stone would have been just as upset if another soldier had broken this rule. But the fact that Will breaks it may have upset Stone a little more, because he'd come to look on the younger soldier as his protege and feels personally betrayed by Will's actions (this is something else that factors into the intensity of Stone's anger; Will - someone he has come to trust - hasn't followed the most important procedure he's laid down).

So yes, Stone lost it because Will hadn't followed a very specific procedure. The reasons why he became so angry are manifold, but the point remains the same - Stone blew up because Will hadn't followed the protocol that was so important to him.

[–] Heidichuu 12 years ago

Wow. I don't think this warranted such a long and drawn out debate. I won't argue that to some extent, refusing to follow protocol made Stone mad. However, the fact that Will was more comfortable showing empathy is the major reason why Stone lost it. In such an obviously personal profession that requires tactfulness, respect and compassion, Stone was unable to shake his training and act compassionately. THAT was why he was mad. The fact that Will broke protocol is an excuse he can hide behind. It is not the reason why he was upset.