MovieChat Forums > The Messenger (2009) Discussion > Uniform Nitpicks

Uniform Nitpicks

posted 15 years ago by B_Profane
50 replies | jump to latest

I'm totally not anal about this stuff, unlike the former service guys, but a couple things caught my eye...

Woody:

--Late 40's and only a captain? Not likely.

--Highest award is an MSM?

--No Iraq or Afghanistan service ribbon?

--Jump wings but no CIB?

Everything but the jump wings seems like REMF salad. Is he supposed to be in the Reserve? Sorta old Reserve captain with scraggly 'stache on "bad news" detail, yeah, that's plausible. But an officer with jump wings and no overseas tin, even for a Reserve guy that's kinda unlikely, given the op-tempo of the last seven years.

Foster:

--CIB, "bleeder tin" (Purple Heart), Airborne tab and "sand patch" (Iraq) ribbon...but no valor device on his Bronze Star? Either his Bronze Star was one of those gimme awards prior to combat service or else it was an add-on to the P.H.

--Rank seems a grade low given his implied service record and age.

--Are you supposed to wear both the standard and Expeditionary "GWOT" ribbons?

--Gonna lose that GCM if he goes banging the widow!

By Hollywood standards the decorations are pretty authentic. If the backstory establishes that Woody is a screw-up of an officer shunted off to lousy duty, ok, his rank and decorations fit, although if he's always been an active duty officer he would likely have been RIF'd out sometime during the 90's.

[–] Geddysburg 15 years ago

You can have Jump wings without CIB. CIB is for infantry -- his branch insignia indicates he's a Signal Officer. Having Jump Wings just mean that he has been in an Airbourne Unit to get Airbourne qualified.

Both GWOT Ribbons can be worn, but he shouldn't be wearing a Expedentiary one without an Iraqi or Afghan Campaign medal.

[–] akronactor 15 years ago

Woody: Not all military personell wear ALL of their authorized ribbons.

Foster: CIB but no blue cord. No real infantryman would put on Class A's without it.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] antiotter 15 years ago

He doesn't have the blue discs under his branch insignia, either. Woody probably should have the green leadership tabs under the Distincitve Unit Insignia on his lapels.

Both of their berets are godawful, too.

[–] CurtFennell 14 years ago

He doesn't have the blue discs under his branch insignia, either. Woody probably should have the green leadership tabs under the Distincitve Unit Insignia on his lapels.

Both of their berets are godawful, too.

Blue discs only go under Infantry crossed rifles, neither of them had those on their uniform. If they did they would have been wearing the blue cord as well.

[–] jim-gormley 14 years ago

I just saw this, and I'm going to have to go back and take a look- but I think Montgomery is wearing Armor discs instead of Infantry, which I know would be all jacked up (because ypu can't get a CIB without being an 11 series or 18 series. If he's Armor, he'd have a CAB.)
I think for movies- the characters have to have at least one thing incorrect on the uniform, meaning by law they can't wear the uniform exactly as it is supposed to be worn.

[–] green5111 15 years ago

you can be 40 and a captain. maybe he enlisted, became an NCO, stayed with it for a while, then went to OCS. sorted.

[–] notiitans 15 years ago

*I have not seen this movie yet* Technically you dont HAVE to be infantry to get a CIB. You can be, for example, a cook and be attached to an infantry unit, say 2nd ID, go on missions with 2nd ID, and then if you see combat 2nd ID can award you a CIB b/c you were attached and saw combat with them. Normally whatever unit you deployed with would take care of your award and therefore as a cook you would get a CAB (combat action badge) however 2nd ID could take care of you and you could get a CIB w/out actually being infantry. Just a note that particular kind of case is extremely rare, most infantry units hold steady the mentality "if you ain't infantry you aint s*&t" so you would be hard pressed to get a CIB w/out being infantry....Whoever said no infantry guy would ever wear class A's w/out the blue ribbon is spot on too. That infantry blue ribbon is extremely important to most infantry soldiers

dont pin this on jesus, hes got enough nails in him already -house

[–] Brendan3 14 years ago

You wrote

Normally whatever unit you deployed with would take care of your award and therefore as a cook you would get a CAB (combat action badge) however 2nd ID could take care of you and you could get a CIB w/out actually being infantry. Just a note that particular kind of case is extremely rare

Where are you getting this information?
With the exception of 18Bs, No non-infantryman is getting a CIB.
The CAB was invented to award non infantry soldiers an equivalent badge.
No non infanryman is awarded the CIB.
If you met a non infantry soldier who claims he was awarded a CIB (not CAB), kick him in the balls for being a lying sack of sh*t.

[–] hueydoc 14 years ago

for notiitans; WRONG!!!!! According to the Institute of Heraldry (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/UniformedServices/Badges/combat_infantryman.aspx) and AR 600-8-22 (para 8-6);
"Award Eligibility
a. There are basically three requirements for award of the CIB. The Soldier must be an Infantryman satisfactorily performing Infantry duties, must be assigned to an Infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat, and must actively participate in such ground combat.

b. The specific eligibility criteria for the CIB require that:

(1) A Soldier must be an Army Infantry or Special Forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of Colonel or below, or an Army Enlisted Soldier or Warrant Officer with an Infantry or Special Forces MOS, who subsequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an Infantry, Ranger or Special Forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat. Eligibility for Special Forces personnel in Military Occupational Specialties (MOS) 18B, 18E, 18F, and 18Z (less Special Forces Medical Sergeant) accrues from 20 December 1989. Retroactive awards for Special Forces personnel are not authorized prior to 20 December 1989.

(2) A recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire while serving in an assigned Infantry or Special Forces primary duty, in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy. The unit in question can be of any size smaller than brigade.

(3) Personnel with other than an Infantry or Special Forces MOS are not eligible, regardless of the circumstances. The Infantry or Special Forces SSI or MOS does not necessarily have to be the Soldier’s primary specialty, as long as the Soldier has been properly trained in infantry or special forces tactics, possesses the appropriate skill code, and is serving in that specialty when engaged in active ground combat as described above. Commanders are not authorized to make any exceptions to this policy."
Former Infantrymen that change to another MOS may wear the CIB as a permanent award, regardless of his current MOS.

[–] Christopher_D 15 years ago

Green5111, you are right. My Captain is in his early 40's. Was an NCO for 15 years and made this switch to commissioned.

[–] sized-2 9 years ago

I have an inlaw who was a Mustang in the Navy which would explain the rank for his age.

[–] garyj-9 15 years ago

I seem to remember an informal policy of the entertainment industry to not exactly copy military uniforms, so they would intentionally introduce subtle errors in insignia or patches.

[–] empath69 15 years ago

THANK YOU.

This needs to be reminded to all the self-professed "nitpickers" who *think* they've spotted gaffes or mistakes, instead of DELIBERATE DISCREPANCIES.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Brendan3 14 years ago

You wrote:

I agree to a point. I mean, does it really matter? With respect to any military veterans and the like, I'm assuming most of the people going to see this film, will be regular civilians, who probably wouldn't know much about the uniform/ribbons.

That being said, thanks for the interesting trivia!

I generally don't nitpick inaccuracies in most pocorn entertainmet military themed movies.
But when a movie is trying to tell a serious story, inaccuracies stand out.

As to your question about who would notice...
Tens of millions of people in this country alone would notice.

Take the current numbers of active duty and reserve personnel and add to that all the veterans (peacetime and wartime) of the last 40 years, because it's been at least that long since the Class A dress uniform has been changed, and you've got quite a large number of the population that would notice.

to an active duty or veteran soldier, a glaring uniform error stands out in a film as much to us as a character using a celphone would stand out in a film set in the 1970's would to the average viewer.

The annoying thing isn't just that it takes us out of the film, but that it's such a simple mistake that could have been so easily avoided if the continuity and costume people bothered.

[–] antiotter 14 years ago

This is simply not true.

A friend of mine was an Air Force Public Affairs Officer, who later got transferred to the Hollywood liaison office. He's worked on dozens of films.

Every uniform mistake is the fault of the film's production crew. The mistakes are either because of poor research, laziness (or cheapness) because they don't want to special order a rare badge or patch. Or pay to have their wardrobe re-stocked with newer uniforms, which is why you see a lot of lower-budget films still using BDUs and DCUs, instead of the current-issue ACUs. Or it's a deliberate choice because they think something "looks cooler."

It's a myth, probably used as a cop-out by some wardrobe designer who didn't want to get fired when someone asked his boss why an actor is wearing the wrong badges for his MOS.

[–] Brendan3 14 years ago

you wrote:

I seem to remember an informal policy of the entertainment industry to not exactly copy military uniforms, so they would intentionally introduce subtle errors in insignia or patches.

that is most likely a rumor started by some film maker trying to explain an error he made.
There have been plenty of films (both independent and major studio releases) wherein actors have worn uniforms correctly with no errors.

[–] hellseekerus 14 years ago

Correct.

[–] jbowmore 13 years ago

Films, television, plays, etc. have been allowed to use perfectly correct uniforms since since 1970. See Schacht v. United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schacht_v._United_States)

So since a perfect uniform is perfectly legal, that just leaves costume error.

[–] Brussel_Sprowtz 15 years ago

Hilarious!
I will give it to you that Woody is a bit old to be a captain, but;
An MSM is a fairly senior medal, and not many captains would have one. Not every soldier has earned a combat decoration.
And not every soldier has been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. Only about 10% of the Army is in a combat MOS.
Jump wings without an a Combat Infantry Badge on an Army officer is a a very common thing because they can actually go to jump school while in ROTC.

"Bleeder tin"? "Sand Patch"? Where do you clowns hear this stuff? You sound like a minor character in an old Schwarzenegger movie.

Leave the Uniform nitpicking to those that have worn one. Halloween and in your basement when nobody else is home don't count.

[–] turbo_ninja 15 years ago

little stuff like ribbons dont bother me. It's crap like G.I joe where duke's supposed to be a captain yet wears major rank on his dress blues or home of the brave where everything about 50 cent in uniform is just wrong. Oh and my old company commander is 42 and a captain. made E6 and went ocs.

[–] acmech 15 years ago

Not meaning to throw gas on the fire but if that were the case with Woody Harrelson's character, he would have a GCM (which officers don't get)and the ribbon that I called the "I survived PLDC" award. (the green, yellow and black striped one Ben Foster wears at the bottom of his ribbons).

[–] SomervilleRed 14 years ago

Actually MSM is pretty common for captains. I was in less than 7 years and got one. Depends upon command and their awards policy. Most captains where I was stationed were considered for one when they moved to another base.

As for the Bronze Star without V device and Purple Heart -- that is no surprise. You have to show valor to get the V device, yet someone can drop a mortar round on you while you're in the latrine and get a Purple Heart. No relation.

But, I agree, that about about 48, Woody is a very old captain not to have prior enlisted service. And he would wear a Good Conduct Medal if he had at least 3 years enlisted. At least they didn't give him ribbons from Vietnam.

For the naysayer -- yea, we're being nitpicky, but a uniform tells your military history and gives some background. I can tell an awful lot from a dressed up soldier.

[–] buff-29 14 years ago

It seems simple-minded to me for you folks to say "Woody Harrelson is too old to be a captain." Hey, gang, this is a movie. Woody is actor. He is not a captain. If the way he looks on the screen makes it impossible for you to think he is an army captain, that is one thing. But "Woody is too old"? That is just dumb. You look up how old the actor is and then say he is too old? Sheesh. Get a clue, folks.

[–] Akzidenz_Grotesk 14 years ago

Curious about a "dress" uniform detail I've seen on some soldiers...Which branches of the services and how high a rank does a soldier have to have before he or she can wear gold braids draped from the shoulder?

My votes:http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=9422378

[–] antiotter 14 years ago

It's not a rank indicator. It indicates a duty position. Worn on the right shoulder, it means an aide to the President. Left shoulder, Generals, or cabinet members.

[–] Akzidenz_Grotesk 14 years ago

Thanks for that info. I detect you are Canadian or a Brit due to your usage of "cabinet minister", no? Cheers.

My votes:http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=9422378

[–] avnrulz 14 years ago

My nitpick is the actor playing the part, not the character. I liked WH when he played 'Woody' on Cheers, but his politics leave a lot to be desired (as with Sean Penn, Danny Glover, etc).

But, that's just me. And, I received an MSM when I retired.

Fight the FOCA

[–] antiotter 14 years ago

Nope. A former U.S. Army Cavalry Trooper.

[–] deenying 14 years ago

Woody is prior enlisted. There was a scene when Foster asked why he stayed.

Woody replied with something like, "well I was then offered a commission and they dared me to get out, so I stayed."

But yeah, now there is the discrepancy of him not having a GCM on his uniform.

[–] michael_russell 14 years ago

As career army, I noticed problems, but they aren't a big deal, and did not detract from my enjoyment of the film. They weren't the ones you name:

CPT Stone states he was career enlisted and was offered a commission. He could have been an E-7 and moved over. He stated it was the LTC who had got him the commission. It is also not clear if he had a break in service.

His highest award of an MSM makes perfect sense. He admitted later in the film he was never actually in Combat. Typically MSMs are only awarded to E-7 and up and Majors and up.

The CIB is not awarded unless you are in Combat. Stone admitted he wasn't in combat. He was never in a battle.

***

The actual uniform flaws were:

Stones mustache was out of regs.

Stone didn't have a right shoulder patch on his Class A's.

The rest was quite good.

[–] SomervilleRed 14 years ago

That would make perfect sense, except he doesn't wear anything on his uniform that indicates enlisted service, e.g., Good Conduct Medal or Noncommissioned Officer Professional Development Ribbon. That's the piece that doesn't ring true at all.

[–] Counter-Sniper 14 years ago

Sorry, he wore the Enlisted Basic Training Ribbon not awarded to Officers.

[–] Counter-Sniper 14 years ago

He didn't have the right shoulder patch because he wasn't in Combat....The right shoulder Patch is the Combat Patch and is the unit you were attached to during combat or the unit that had operational control.

[–] antiotter 14 years ago

He would still qualify for a "combat patch" for Desert Storm, even if he was never in an actual firefight.

[–] ctkrabbit 14 years ago

Re: Woody being old for a captain... doesn't anybody remember the line (I think it's from when he and Ben Foster's character were in the bar the second time) about his staying in the Army because "they offered me a commission..." ?