Thanks for your response. To be clear, I don't think there's anything scary about equality between men and women.
As for my interpretation, no, I didn't see it as a condemnation of sexist men. I think the title is meant to mislead a bit. On the surface, many of these men appear to be sexist, but when you listen to what they say and how they're saying it, it starts to become clear that they're not so much sexist as confused, bitter, self-hating, in denial, etc. And sure, there's probably some sexism in there too, though I can't remember each of the subjects. What fascinated me about the book was that it wasn't a mere condemnation of sexism; it was an exploration of sexism and also of views which are perceived to be and accused of being sexist when, in reality, there's so much more going on than can be covered by a blanket statement. And that's why calling this film a feminist movie scares me. It's possible that John's definition of feminism is more varied and accounts for a lot more nuanced male/female interaction than your average person's. I hope it is. Otherwise, it will actually only be a condemnation of plainly hideous men and who needs more of that? It's not intelligent and it's wouldn't be worthy of D. F. Wallace
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silntbob-3
15 years ago
Can't argue with that.
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agribbo
15 years ago
I just read this is the publicity notes and it has reassured me that Krasinski did it right (now we just need to know when it'll be released!):
It was really interesting that the guys who are completely confident actually have the most hideous things to say. And the guys who appear to be really guilt-ridden are guys struggling for meaning and understanding. Not only are these interviews cerebral and insightful, but David Foster Wallace is writing in a
way that rips away the layers of the characters until they become extremely vulnerable, until they don’t even know what they’re revealing to the audience. Some of that is ugly, and some of it is provocative. But it is all someone’s truth. In that, I think it’s the most honest representation of what these characters are because you see both what they’re trying to tell you and all the things they are unaware they are revealing— at the same time.
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sweiland75
15 years ago
Oh great! Another misandrist movie. I guess it would be politically incorrect to have a misogynist movie.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/ You can help change the world.
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agribbo
15 years ago
Really, sweiland? I mean, that's what I was afraid the movie would be, too. But that excerpt from the publicity notes seems to say that it's a sort of balanced (though subtle) view of relationships.
I'm really anxious about this movie, because the reviews seem so contradictory. Have you read the book? Do you feel the book was misandrist or do you only get the impression that that's the direction Krasinski took the movie in?
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the_girl_from_mars
15 years ago
Let's be honest sweiland75, the majority of media in our culture is already closer to being misongynist than misandrist so even if this was more misandrist (which it doesn't sound like it is anyway), I think you can let this one slide :)
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agribbo
15 years ago
Not to perpetuate things needlessly (because I am reserving judgment), but I'm not sure that's the right attitude. I know what you mean, of course, but if something is blatantly hateful of one sex, well, it's worth speaking up over no matter how skewed things are overall, don't you think?
But who knows, this could be handled interestingly.
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squints13
15 years ago
i completely agree that being hateful of one gender, regardless of which one, isn't something that should be accepted. but i also don't think the men portrayed in this book (and i can only assume this movie) could be considered representative of men as a whole. in that way, even if it was vaguely condemning of them i don't think it could be considered misandrist anyways. plus, it is possible to condemn the actions and not the person.
i think some people tend to equate feminism with misandry which is entirely false.
p.s.- agribbo, if you're following this movie closely you've probably already seen this clip, but krasinski pretty much describes it exactly as you (and i for that matter) seem to have interpreted it. so hopefully your worries are assuaged!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBkXCAKVT1E
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dave4248185
15 years ago
////// i think some people tend to equate feminism with misandry which is entirely false. /////
I couldn't agree more with you sqints. But I also think some folks label you a "mysoginist" because you're tired of seeing men portrayed as nothing more than shaved orangutans,....for about the billionth time.
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dain_bramaged_926
15 years ago
I don't think too many people really understand what feminism is, and what feminists are all about. It drives me insane when my dad says (every two seconds, by the way), "If they hate men so much, why are they trying to BE men?" That is such a shallow, one-dimensional view of feminism.
Everyone should take a course on feminism, I think. I learned so much taking my Philosophy of Feminism class last year. Before taking it, I was one of those people who think "feminism" is a dirty word.
I get the feeling you're violating somebody's basic human rights here...
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15 years ago
[deleted]
silntbob-3
15 years ago
Disagree. The perspective of feminism is that women have the raw end of the stick, as it were, and the goal is to try to level the playing field so men and women are equal. If someone told you differently, they were not feminists but misandrists.
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Schadenfunny
15 years ago
It seems like you're arguing semantics.
Yes, the name "feminism" doesn't literally apply to gender equality, but that has to do with its root in history. Feminism STARTED as a movement for gender equality that focused on women's issues. It's definitely broadened now.
The name may not be technically accurate, but it has common usage in a specific way.
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strykergamer
14 years ago
Most feminists have absolutely no clue of the gender inequality against men, or ignore it so that they can feel more repressed. That's what I hate about feminism in today's world. Life isn't fair. Get over it.
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MelivaME
13 years ago
I'm glad everyone didn't take your stance during the civil rights movement.
'Cause we all end up in a tiny pine box, A mighty small drop in a mighty dark plot.
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ShanaLD
13 years ago
What gender inequality against men are you talking about specifically? Are you talking about the fact women are more likely to get custody of children or get alimony in divorces? Some perceived slight because Mila Jovovich gets to be an action movie star? Title IX?
Talking about life not being fair and getting over it is ridiculous. No one should accept being treated as less than as just a fact of life. Because when you just accept it nothing changes. There was a great interview on WNYC about men taking time off from work to raise children and how rather than hurting their careers it can improve their careers because they are seen as more responsible and capable of handling greater tasks. Whereas I have personally seen women that have been demoted, fired and offered significantly lower salaries after returning to work after having kids. That to me is very sad and this mistreatment comes from both male and female employers. Right now with the great gender imbalance seen in countries like India and China and Azerbaijan, instead of women being empowered to do more they are becoming more and more of a commodity to be bought and sold like cattle. In many parts of the world, women are punished with rape for the things their male relatives have done and their "purity" is taken away from them. Many still view a woman as valuable to the community as long as this so called purity remains in tact. Once it is gone, she is just a useless shell. Should women just accept that that's the way the world is and get over it?
What feminism is really about is that a woman can make sadecision for what path her life shall go in without having to fit into some expectation of society. In other words, a woman can just as easily be a housewife as she could be a CEO (granted she have the education, experience and superior know how over other candidates). Yes, there are unfair expectations of men, but the major problem right now is that women and many other minorities face an even more unbalanced playing field where what they look like or what is between their legs is what tells people what they are capable of rather than actually seeing what they are capable of.
No normal person wants to feel opressed. The same way you would want to be judged on your actions and future potential is the same way I would want to be judged. In most parts of the world and in many aspects of American society, women do not have the same opportunities their male counterparts have.
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Gambit771
10 years ago
So women are portrayed as moronic slobs that can't do anything right and are always messing up and apologising (even when they didn't mess up) constantly being called stupid or idiot or jerk or moron.
Women are constantly being hit by men for comedic value or to shore men as being strong empowered men.
Constantly shown as being incapable at sex and relationships with no understanding of men?
Constantly shown to be useless around men but being cocky and sexist just to be put in their place by a man who is better than her?
Constantly showing women as always accepting they're wrong and men are always right? Constantly saying she's not good enough for him and agreeing when everyone tells her he can do better?
There are a stream of films and shows where women are dumped and spend the rest of it trying to improve herself to be good enough for him (with there being a scene of domestic violence that she deserves) and this applies to trying to get the guy in the first place with obligatory violence against the opposite sex scene.
Women are constantly shown as weak insecure messes and men and so intelligent and confident and excelling at everything he does.
Women are constantly agreeing with the derogatory attitudes about women from all men in these films about how bad and useless these women are? Showing women as accepting that and how women don't know men but every man is an expert on women, sex and relationships?
Women are constantly shown as arrogant only to be hit by a man and everyone laughs at her but is impressed at how manly he is?
Are you saying there are more films where men judge a lot of women who tell horrible stories about what they've done to men?
Where are these films? Where's the the male equivalent to this film?
Misandry is far more common these days because it's an acceptable form of sexism and hate that's ingrained into society so people don't notice it or call it out.
Feminist especially have managed to package misandry up as empowered so the more sexist a woman is the more we call her empowered.
I always say imagine the genders were reversed and would you call him empowered and think that's an acceptable way for women to be portrayed?
The answer is never yes
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Gambit771
10 years ago
Tackles sexism
Only men are portrayed as sexist
Nothing sexist there I guess. Definitely feminist
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