Why aren't prisons full of 'evil' Atheists? - Root of All Evil? (2006) Discussion

[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Is that really true- do you really any have good data on that? Also, I think that even if you did have data on that, it would be suspect because embracing religion is considered to be a sign of 'good behavior.'

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] happy_apostate 17 years ago

Just look at the christian ministries in American prisons. There are some Muslim and Jewish ministries thrown in for good measure as well. However, you don't see the prisons full of admitted Atheists.

Richard Dawkins is an Atheist and yet he has never even spent the night in a county jail so far as I can discover. Yet, the false accusation is unendingly made about how Atheists have no morals and it takes religion to make people good. If that lie were remotely true, then all the Atheists would be inside the prisons while all the religious would be on the outside. It is not that way.

So, I posed the question to theists so that they might end their cognitive dissonance. What they beleive cannot be and is not true.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. - David Hume

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Well, my guess is that Richard Dawkins would ask someone what evidence they were basing this assertion on.

You say there are fewer atheists in prison- how many fewer? How was that measured? What does the evidence tell us? What is the proportion of atheists in prison compared to the general population?

I'm not arguing about whether or not you're right about this phenomenon, I'm asking if you have evidence that shows that it exists. I'm asking where you got this information from and what the data actually says.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] ag2789 17 years ago

Well, we are forgetting that there are a lot more theists than atheists in the world. Also, that not all theists are actually religious.

www.myspace.com/metalDude82

Formely metalDude82-1

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Certainly, that's why I asked about the proportion of atheists in prisons compared to the general population. We would only want to consider it significant that there were fewer atheists in prison if there were actually a smaller proportion of atheists.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] Shaneymike 17 years ago

Hm, it appears I misjudged you, solongthanks, seeing as how you asked a fellow atheist for proof that there the vast majority of people in prison are people of religious background.

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Well thanks, it's all about evidence for me...

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] happy_apostate 17 years ago

There are no Atheist Gangs in prison whereas it is easy to identify religious ministries there. My point remains though, if the theist were correct in that Atheism is all about selfish hedonism and having no morals, then prisons would have identifiably large populations. They do not, yet theists continue to claim that Atheists have no morals.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. - David Hume

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[–] ag2789 17 years ago

Again, there are not nearly as many atheists in the population as theists. But, saying atheists are immoral is not right.

www.myspace.com/metalDude82

Formely metalDude82-1

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Now you jump from there being fewer atheists to fewer atheist gangs?

I understand that your point was to try to show that if the argument that atheists have no morals is correct, then the world would look different. And I agree with that point.

However fabricating evidence, making things up, spreading ideas as true that are based on imagination and not on evidence, are not rational ways to make a point, adn are precisely the things that people like Dawkins criticize religious dogma for. And it shatters any point you try to make when your credibility is damaged.

If you are going to make claims about what exists in our society, those claims should be based on evidence.

It would have been very different if you had argued, "I'll bet there are fewer atheists in prisons." But you didn't, you were presenting those arguments as if they were facts based on evidence, and they weren't.

This is one of my favority pieces by Dawkins and I think you would really benefit from it. Enjoy. http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] happy_apostate 17 years ago

Eh, no worries. We all know that prisons are not full of Atheists nor are the nightly news broadcasts full of Atheist atrocities because if they were full of Athesits running amok, the theists in this country would have the numbers to throw up in our faces. They do not, and they would love to attack us with them, and so I am satisfied with my presentation. Thanks anyways.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. - David Hume

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

What a shame that you are satisfied with speading fabricated rumors...it's pity you don't understand the value of evidence.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] happy_apostate 17 years ago

There is a vast difference between not knowing and not caring. I am the latter in that I don't care about proving the most obvious lack of evidence identifying a sizeable Atheist population in prison or generally causing havoc each and every day to your satisfaction.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. - David Hume

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[–] solongthanks 17 years ago

Why yes, there is a vast difference between not knowing and not caring, neither however excuse arguing that that something is true without having evidence. Saying that something 'must be so' simply because it sounds good to you is not very reasonable, imo. And completely defies the meaning of your signature!

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. - David Hume" Do you not understand the importance of your own signature?

It would have been a lot more simple if you had simple replied to my first post saying that you didn't have evidence to support your claim and you just thought it was true. And arguing that you think it might be true "because..." is totally valid. But instead, you posted information as if it were a known *fact.*

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick

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[–] Joshuarayjames 16 years ago

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

This details several studies showing that on average, the Atheist population in American prisons is very consistently less than 1% of the total inmate population.

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[–] neonwraith 16 years ago

I'll nail my athiest colours to the wall here first.

I'd love to be able to show that the claims of atheists were more or as moral as christians as that would be a major coup, but you need more then a few statistics, you need to undertstand some underlying factors.

Is crime simply a moral issue. Here I would say no as there are socio-ecocnomic factors too. It's ultimately a moral choice, but we must look at the socio economic and accademic backgrounds of most atheists.

Of equal issue here could be classification. How many prisoners are actuall practicing a religious faith and how many are lip service.

I think it's too simple to make that argument, without first ensuring the underlying factors are right.

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[–] Fork_Q 16 years ago

I'd normally would like to believe that the OP was right, in fact I'm sure I also have heard it elsewhere that there is a proportionally smaller percentage of atheists then theists in prisons, but neonwraith nailed that nagging feeling right on the head.

It is too simplistic, equating crime with moral issues. The fact there is A LOT more theists then atheists in American prisons (there’s probably a more equal distribution here in the UK) has more to do with that a great deal of people who go to jail are Roman Catholic Hispanics or Latinos or black people who are more likely to follow some form of religion anyways.

A better argument that Atheists are more moral then Christians is that most atheists don't believe in an afterlife and therefore eternal happiness / punishment. Christians, whether they know it or not are playing the game for purely hedonistic purposes, they aren't fooling anyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

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[–] ZAROVE 16 years ago

Actually no. Christians arnet just good to get to Heaven, and saying hat is also sterotypical. Acutlaly a lot of Christiasn do good ot others because they think tis irght, not just out of selfish reaosns.

I have seen the stats before on internet debates, always form the same website. The problem is it snot quioet what it appears.

I am studying Psycology, and have seen a mroe realistic assessment hwen studying criminal justice of the same Data. The informaiton in the link above is CHerry picked.

There are actulaly mroe atheists in prisons than in the general populace, though not by a signifigant margin. Roughly 2% of the populace is Ahtistsic int he US, and dispite what other son this baord have said, 76% of the UK populace is Christian and 15% "Non-Religious". THe "Non-Religious" doenst mean "Ahtist" either.

the prisons have abotu 7-10% inmates who are Athistic in the US ad about 20% of r the UK.

20% atheistic in the UK is 5 percent more htan the 15% of the nonreligous.

Then youhave to add the reaossn for hte crimes, and how many just jot down on a form theu are this or that religion for the sak of identity or culture, without relaly adhering to its tweachings.

IE, a Mexican American may put "Cahtolic" even if hes not attended Mass in ten years.

THe whole of this arugment is jus overblown fluff.

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[–] Thieviticles 16 years ago

Ok, everyone shut up. Here is a study from the FBI, based on peoples responses, as religion is mostly personal, it's not fabricated. the truth is, there are fewer atheists then Christians in prison. I'll also throw in some personal experience, everyone I know that went to prison, was a Christian.

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[–] Thieviticles 16 years ago

Also, atheists make up a relatively big global population, so to whoever said the contrary before, perhaps you should get some evidence.

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[–] ZAROVE 16 years ago

Vit, shoudln't you look at the overall population and contrast that?

One woudl expect there to be more Christians in US PRisons than Ahtiests, by the simple virtue that there are moe Christians than Atheists.

Dispite what you hear, Ahtiesm dons't acutlaly compise a signifigant populaitonal figure, and only about 2% of the global Populaiton are Atiests.

Int he United STtes, this follos, nd only about 2% of the acutal populaiton are Athiestic.

The Prisons shoudl thus expect, is followign populaiton trends, 2% of the popuaiton of prisons to be Atheists, and 85% to be Christian.

Only 70% of the Prison populaiton is Christain, and 10 % atheist.

The Statistics on Prison Populaiton foudn on Skeptical website sont he net to shwo how much better Ahtists are pad the umbers, including in the general populaiton those who arne't include dint he prisons, suh as Agnostics.

Agnostics are counted as Ahtiests in the generla populaiton but not in the prison populaiton, in order to decrease the numbers.

Worse, only about 34% of all inmates activley participate in Prison religiosu services, which further erodes the claim that the Religiously deovut ar emore prone to crime.

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[–] Thieviticles 16 years ago

There are MANY more than 2% of atheists, you're not allowed to just make stuff up.

"The Statistics on Prison Populaiton foudn on Skeptical website sont he net to shwo how much better Ahtists are pad the umbers, including in the general populaiton those who arne't include dint he prisons, suh as Agnostics."- ZAROVE

what the HELL are you trying to say? even after i correct your spelling, grammatically it makes no sense, try and think out your thoughts, might prevent the inane rambling and give you time to check your numbers so you don't have to make them up.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

here's your global figures. until you can get some real numbers you are not allowed to argue your point, if you have a problem with the source then express that instead of making things up. you will also find that the countries that have more non-religious, have lower crime rates generally speaking. so far you have raised no valid arguments to justify the amount of time i have to take apart then re-assemble your cryptic posts.

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[–] Thieviticles 16 years ago

ALSO of all the polls i looked at before i placed the link, i chose this one because it was CLOSEST to your numbers, most of them showed numbers well into the 15% area, and all of the Christian numbers indicate a higher percent of the total in prison then would be proportionate to equal numbers of the population.

moreover your theory of only having a certain amount of people go to prison sponsored religious ceremonies is BS, since most of those are just shams, and hardly even exist, showing that either you don't research any of this, or you are just determined to believe your own nonsense.

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[–] ZAROVE 16 years ago

There are MANY more than 2% of atheists, you're not allowed to just make stuff up.

Not accordign tot he United States Cenus Beureu. But hey, what do they know.

"The Statistics on Prison Populaiton foudn on Skeptical website sont he net to shwo how much better Ahtists are pad the umbers, including in the general populaiton those who arne't include dint he prisons, suh as Agnostics."- ZAROVE

what the HELL are you trying to say? even after i correct your spelling, grammatically it makes no sense, try and think out your thoughts, might prevent the inane rambling and give you time to check your numbers so you don't have to make them up.

I am sayign this.

When the above stat is given, it includes Agnostics, Nonreligious, and unaffiliated with Atheusst for the general public, and only looks at those ho tick the box Atheist whilst in prison.

That means thety bad the number of Athists i the general public whilst lowering it in the prison stats.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

If you ar eon Adherants.com, perhaos you shoudl look at what they had ot say about the Prison Stats. They also debunk them as false.

here's your global figures.

Global figures do not count in a US PRison Statistic. That woudl also be a false mean of operating. We need to look only at US Statistics, not Statistics form a planetary scale.

until you can get some real numbers you are not allowed to argue your point,

The prison stat givenon numerous atheist sites is not "Real numbers". and you can't forbid me to argume my point.

That said, you didn't read up on ho valid the Prison Statistics where, and just blidnly accepted them, then atte toed to support a US PRison stat which is agaisn thte general US Population with a global adherance chart. Thats illogical.

if you have a problem with the source then express that instead of making things up.

I didnt make hings up. You can look on Adherants.Com to find the Prison Statistics debunked, and can go visit the US Census Beureu to find the percent of Atheists in the United States.

I've linked tot he Adherants.Com site.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

As you can see, the Prison Statistics are not wholly accurate or valid.

you will also find that the countries that have more non-religious, have lower crime rates generally speaking.

No they don't.

Your now quoting the GRegory S. Paul study of 2005, which itself was written by a non-scientist, who has made a career out of speakign agaisnt religions, as part of the Counsil For Secular Humanism, and whose information has been roundly debunked both by prevous studies and by later critissm. Paul also lacks any competant trainign in gathering statistis.

Pauls study.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Debunking Pauls study.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=25

I'm afriad that the claim that Religious societies are worse off than nonreligiosu ones was a sham.

so far you have raised no valid arguments to justify the amount of time i have to take apart then re-assemble your cryptic posts.

I am dysleic, and I alreayd raised mroe interestign poitns than you did.

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[–] cluniac 12 years ago

After reading the original post and several replies, I decided to go ahead and chip in. The idea that a person needs religion to be good, is clearly utter rubbish. I'd be astonished if anyone actually asked me to qualify this statement. Of course, though, it would also be stupid to assert that a religious person is more likely to end up in prison than a non-religious person. Having said this, however, as Richard Dawkins has pointed out very adequately in this documentary, religious conviction does enable people to justify heinous crimes. Without such a 'lofty' justification as 'I'm doing it for God', perhaps some / all of these individuals would not be able to commit the crimes they commit.

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[–] englisher101 13 years ago

Yet, the false accusation is unendingly made about how Atheists have no morals and it takes religion to make people good.

You made a grave error in judgement by equating the number of criminals in prison to evidence that atheists don't commit as many crimes. We all know that atheists are generally better educated than, say, church-goers along with being smarter, more open-minded, etc. Of course they'll know how to avoid getting caught better.

For instance, when a Christian robs a store, he leaves his driver's license on the counter and waves hi to the camera.

When an atheist robs the store, he conceals himself with a mask and doesn't even leave behind a single fingerprint.

Also it's an unfair comparison. Atheists, being smarter and better educated people, generally don't have to resort to crime as much as someone who is dumb enough to believe that an ancient book contains more truth about the way the world works than modern scientific data. That doesn't mean the religion is responsible, it just means dumb people resort to crime more.

I bet we could compare stupid people and smart people of a completely different group and find the same results. For instance, take one group of subjects who don't know how to read and another who knows how to read. Guess which one will commit more crime?

All we can surmise is that religious people are generally stupid which is undoubtedly true for the most part (it would require heavy indoctrination for a smart person to become religious) but it doesn't mean that religious people are evil. It's not wise to jump to conclusions.

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[–] njwilson-1 13 years ago

I think that the salient point to be taken from the stats isn't that atheists are necessarily more moral, but rather that following a religion also does not make one necessarily more moral - contrary to the frequent claims of religionists on self-asserted moral high grounds.

Elsewhere you mentioned a more convincing reflection of atheist/religionist morality perhaps being found in the prison statistics of less-religious countries. The UK Home Office did release its own figures a few years ago, and illustrated a similarly high correlation between religiosity and criminality in the UK prison population and a hugely inverse correlation between atheism and same.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

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[–] englisher101 15 years ago

Prisons are tricky since a lot of people are converted in prison and therefore become religious.

For more convincing evidence that atheism doesn't lead to immorality, it's quite interesting to compare the crime rates of countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Japan to far more religious countries like the U.S., Ireland, Italy, Taiwan, China, etc.

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[–] Guardia 15 years ago

Bill Maher mentions something along these lines in 'Religoulous' as well.

Do not write here

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Midwesternman 14 years ago

I think many people convert while they are in prison to get past the parole board.

every day may not be good, but there is good in every day

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[–] Roy72 13 years ago

There are higher rates of murder, suicide and prison population in most of the southern "Red" states of the US.

These are also the same areas where a much higher %age of people express that they have "a strong faith".

The correlation is very close, it could be a coincidence but I am sure that mass delusion of this kind does not make the streets safer.

Roy 72.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Mex5150 13 years ago

Hi

I am on my laptop visiting a relative, so don't have access to my normal bookmarks at home (If I remember when I return home next week I will post links though).

There are lots of statistics that show there is a SUBSTANTIALLY lower percentage of Atheists in prison (I only have data for US, UK, and Thailand, but I see no reason the data would be much different elsewhere), than there is per capita. This is data recorded on ENTRY, so claims of conversion inside to boost chances of early release do not stand.

-Mex

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[–] Forever_Hardcore 12 years ago

Working in a max it has been my experience that many people convert or start seriously following God after they come it. Doesn't mean they were atheist or theist before entering though.

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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