Taliban
I was confused about Irman feeling it was his duty to join the Taliban even though he did not believe in their ways. Was the Pakistan army requiring him to join?
shareI was confused about Irman feeling it was his duty to join the Taliban even though he did not believe in their ways. Was the Pakistan army requiring him to join?
shareYes.
That was rather the point of the film.
The Pakistanis set up the Taliban, sent their guys to train and command them, then disowned their own special forces guys when the USA made it politically necessary for them to do so.
That was the line the film took anyway. I don't know what the real-world evidence is for the whole of that story (the general gist of it is clearly correct) and I would imagine the Pakistani governnment will not be too happy with this movie....
Bush Logic:- Killing American embryos = murder. Killing Arab civilians = business as usual.
Pakistani soldiers never joined the Taliban. There were a lot of Afghan refugees from Pakistan who did, and also Pakistani citizens.
Its an Indian movie, not expected to be positive in any way towards Pakistan.
yeah right :)
I don't think it is a big secret what pakistan did in afghanistan. The afghan prime minister himself blames pakistan.
a government minister making a statement does not make it a fact. The Taliban began in Kandahar, they were always an Afghan group, which is the reason they survived so long, if they had been imported, they would have died out a long time ago.
Those of you who look for facts in movies or Indian tv channels are sorry folks! a Pakistani TV channel is much more credible than the hatred and nonsense spewed out by India.
oh and the btw, Pakistan did win in 1948 and 1965. We got Azad Kashmir in 48 and beat back an Indian attack in 65. 71 was our loss.
Stop spreading lies. The Taliban was primarily pakistani and formed by the CIA.
Think I'm full of it?
Well read away ignoramus:
In 1994, a new group, the Taliban (Pashtun for "students"), emerged on the scene. Its members came from madrassas set up by the Pakistani government along the border and funded by the U.S., Britain, and the Saudis, where they had received theological indoctrination and military training. Thousands of young men-refugees and orphans from the war in Afghanistan-became the foot soldiers of this movement:
These boys were from a generation who had never seen their country at peace-an Afghanistan not at war with invaders and itself. They had no memories of their tribes, their elders, their neighbors nor the complex ethnic mix of peoples that made up their villages and their homeland. These boys were what the war had thrown up like the sea's surrender on the beach of history ...
They were literally the orphans of war, the rootless and restless, the jobless and the economically deprived with little self-knowledge. They admired war because it was the only occupation they could possibly adapt to. Their simple belief in a messianic, puritan Islam which had been drummed into them by simple village mullahs was the only prop they could hold on to and which gave their lives some meaning. Untrained for anything, even the traditional occupations of their forefathers such as farming, herding or the making of handicrafts, they were what Karl Marx would have termed Afghanistan's lumpen proletariat.
With the aid of the Pakistani army, the Taliban swept across most of the exhausted country promising a restoration of order and finally capturing Kabul in September 1996. The Taliban imposed an ultra-sectarian version of Islam, closely related to Wahhabism, the ruling creed in Saudi Arabia. Women have been denied education, health care, and the right to work. They must cover themselves completely when in public. Minorities have been brutally repressed. Even singing and dancing in public are forbidden.
Just like Saddam they were created by THE USA CIA ONLY TO LATER BE USED AS AN EXCUSE FOR IMPERIALISM OF AMERICA>
Let's see a source shall we? And if you say wikipedia so help me...
I've heard it was the Saudis that came to Afghanistan and enlisted youth there.
the taliban are afghanis, not pakistanis.
pakistani military joined with them on USA's recommendation during the soviet invasion. pakistani civilians have also joined with them but only a few.
pakistani government or people have very little to do with taliban. all the political parties in pakistan oppose taliban. only in a few tribal areas of 1 pakistani province (NWFP) do people live and behave like the taliban.
so stop maligning pakistan.
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Dude do u read, watch tv, browse the net or even get the hell out of ur pathetic hut. U ahole. Buy urself a freakin' history text book or a goat brain u moron. U think Indian media spews hatred,...Dude ur country doesnt even have any free media. All u have is a bunch of isi or musharraf yes men. The only candid media u have is a eunuch (Begum Nawazish Ali), who btw was pulled off the air. As for the 1948 and 1965 'wars', I believe half of our army took a dump in peshawar and peed in Lahore before donating u idiots a tiny bit of Kashmir. All done in the name of peace and brotherhood. But with d*cks like u i think u don't even deserve baluchistan, which is anyway gonna be a seperate country soon. So watch ur butt before trying to kick smone else's.
shareJust like Pakistan won all the wars against India!
share[deleted]
U bet.. just the way that Pak TV channels (read as the saddest excuse for a TV channel) say about India.. but then we all know what the real truth is.. dont we ;-)
shareaside from insults, you indians have nothing else!. I think the Indian cricket team tour of Pakistan in 2004 alone showed you Indians how much lies and hatred has been pumped into you by your govt and media.
shareHAHA LOL!!!
aamirabbas, surely you are joking..if you really are the educated pakistani you "appear" to be, then you should know that the brainwashing goes on in your country mainly. why must you block all non-Pakistani channels? are you afraid of opening your countrymen's eyes to the world outside? or are you afraid that the whole world's media is actively trying to "brainwash" pakistanis and THATS why you ban all outside TV channels?
and religion!! personally i hate all religions including my own (because they are the biggest causes of war) and i have nothing against islam specifically. my best friends are muslims, FROM PAKISTAN, but why is islam the only major religion in Pakistan? and then there's India where we allow islam and christianity and any damn religion you want to practice!
pakistan is useless to the west. no oil, no major trade links. the west get everything they need from india anyways. why then is the west accusing pakistan of terrorism? funding it, supporting it, training it, instigating it, you name it if it says "terrorism" it says Pakistan...
this may or may not be true, but unfortunately i have seen no evidence from you guys that you are doing much against terrorism..
and this may be a surprise to you, but we don't WANT kashmir!! the only reason we are there is to ensure that none of you creep over the border!! i'm sure we'd rather have the minority (hopefully a minority!) of pakistanis who HATE us and would like to slit all our throats while we sleep, are OUTSIDE our homeland...i won't soon forget what you people did to us in Calcutta - one day with no warning you butchered thousands of innocent people who were guilty in your eyes of only one thing - of being non muslim..and THAT led to the creation of pakistan..
Pakistanis cannot be brainwashed, we are too curious and critical a people. We allow as many channels as people want, we do ban Indian channels since they print nothing but insults and propaganda against Pakistan.
There are many minorities in Pakistan practising their religion with no hindrance or objection from the govt or society. They are sikhs, hindus, Muslims etc.
I am glad you dont want Kashmir. please leave it and let the Kashmiris join Pakistan,which has always been their wish. I think you also mentioned about the west getting something from india....hmm I think that is vastly exaggerated.
"Cannot be brainwashed"?? Right..so how exactly then are your terror camps run? By logical consent? Some of your religious leaders openly preach that its ok to kill non-muslims, and this is done to young people from the age of as little as 5. If this is not brainwashing what is?
Yes, you are too critical. You have nothing yet you still criticize everyone else. You also seem to think Indian channels "print" things. Don't know about Pakistan but in India we use newspapers to print things. And please don't make me laugh. I have been watching Indian channels all my life and not once have I seen any insults against Pakistan. Not even in cricket commentary, I have heard nothing but praise and admiration for Pakistani players.
The West showed no interest in Pakistan before 9/11. And yet almost immediately after Pakistan became an "ally". Explain that, please.
We will never leave Kashmir. If we do you people will start taking liberties and pushing further, and possibly also infecting India with the presence of members your hate-mongering minorities. Have you ever bothered to tally up military power in comparison? India could take Kashmir tomorrow. So could Pakistan. But neither country is doing so. If you people care so much about Kashmiris, then go ahead and launch full scale attacks, lol..India has nearly one million soldiers defending Kashmir, along with over 3000 tanks, and plainly, you'd get massacred. In all of Pakistan you have just 500000 troops. But forget that, you people refuse to disarm your nuclear weapons. Do you think we will back off, with Pakistan ready to start World War 3?
Now let me show you some details. There have been four Indo-Pakistani wars. The first one ended by UN ceasefire with India conquering 3/5 of Kashmir, including the Kashmir Valley. The second one was started by Pakistani insurgents who started rebellions in Jammu and Kashmir. That is the origin of the situation today. The third one was in Bangladesh, when we forced you to surrender, even with your 100000 troops. In the fourth one now we have taken Kargil.
The only reason Kashmiris want to join Pakistan is because they think that as a primarily islamic country Pakistan would be better for them (Kashmir is 95% islam). They do not pay attention to the crippled economy or the massively unstable infrastructure of government. Economists all over the world have predicted that in 20 years time India will fully control Pakistan's economy because we are growing extremely fast. All over the West businesses are moving their custom to India. Who is moving to Pakistan?
You have several very capable and independent thinkers from your country. Please, read up on what they are saying before making childish insults like "indian dumbo" in forums where you only embarass yourself and your countrymen..
If you have never seen insults to Pakistan on Indian movies, government or media, then you are blind and deaf. There has only been lies, insults and distortion about Pakistanis in the indian press, what you wrote in your posts is one proof of that.
The West has had a LONG relatioship with Pakistan. Granted it has not been a very happy relationship because Pakistan is not that rich or powerful a country, the sort the West truly respects, but it has been there and it delivered benefits from time to time, as well as problems. That is what happens when you have a relationship with the West. India on the other hand, showed up on the western radar only after economic growth in the 1990's. If that had not happened nobody would give a damn about India today.
Kashmiris wish to join Pakistan because they are religiously,culturally and historically closer to Pakistanis, and because they will be safer there. That is why there has been trouble in Kashmir for SIXTY (60) years. The oppression and atrocities India has committed against the Kashmiris since the 1980's have only alienated the Kashmiris further. You know why Indian doesnt want to remove its army from Kashmir? Because its the only thing that keeps the India flag flying over Kashmir.
We Pakistanis have far more diversity in our opinions than "free and democratic Indians". Sure your indian media may be free, it is also unprofessional,incompetent and dishonest, same with your government.
I think you are an excellent example of a delusional Indian who can only throw out insults. it is good that you confessed to "conquering" Kashmir. You should end your illegal occupation of that land and give Kashmir back to its owner: the Kashmiris.
Could you please give me some examples? And also please explain to me exactly how what I wrote is proof?
Every single relationship delivers both benefits and problems. I know a lot of the problems Pakistan has presented now could you give me examples of benefits?
"Safer" in Pakistan? Really? How so? Who is posing a danger to them in India? Nobody. YOU attacked first! We therefore defend. It is not an illegal occupation by us, it is a defence of our own land. THAT is why our flag flies over Kashmir.
If you love the Kashmiri's so much, tell them to move further inside Pakistan!!
You accuse me of insulting you yet what are you doing? What am I meant to think when Pakistani authors themselves point out the very flaws I am describing? Indians are not delusional at all. And by the way thank you for admitting that Pakistani media is NOT free but is controlled by the military regime of your Government. What else can be expected from a country ruled by its Army General?
And India has been on Western Radar for a LONG time. Research trade history, it's all there! From agriculture to weapons, trade has gone on between the two countries for a long time. Only NOW is it more apparent due to the sudden economic boom.
I hope you will make some decent reply instead of simply calling me "delusional". Prove me wrong, or at least try!! Don't surrender so easily...
prove what wrong? your insults and self-praise? I am afraid I can't convince Indians to think realistically, especially nationalists like you.
Kashmiris dont want India, its flag or its army. Leave Kashmir and the problems there are solved, as are India's problems with Pakistan. Just because your flag is forcibly flying there does not make Kashmir part of India. Your army has already massacred 60,000 Kashmiris in the last 17 years alone,leave before you do more damage. Its the rubbish media in your country which makes you think Kashmir is "yours". Kashmir is for the....KASHMIRIS. They want to be in....PAKISTAN. Main reason is they will not be oppressed and massacred they way have been under the Indian army.
The level of trade and relations India has with the West was minimal before 1990's when Indian economy began to grow. Now that westerners can make money there, they are very interested in India. Its a recent trend. Pakistan's relationship with the West, especially UK and US, has been around for much longer, since 1950's. One of the achivements of US-Pakistan relationship was in killing your best sponsor, the Soviets. The benefits to Pakistan have been in gaining military and civilian technology. There is billions in trade between the UK and Pakistan and the US and Pakistan. These are some of the benefits of the relationship,alongwith problems.
Lets have some more insults and self-praise from you since you are incapable of actually making a point.
since 1950s??? really? when did Pakistan get created? can you please put links of proofs? and even geographically it does not make sense. if you think back to those days trade was made by sea, and india had far more sea ports than pakistan! your relationship with the West was put under scrutiny after the 9/11 bombings. please explain why out of all the countries in the world everyone immediately accused you. "prepare to be bombed back to the stone age" was, i believe, what was said to general musharaf, who very sadly complained about it to the media in the next couple of days, it was very comical to see him "telling" on america to the BBC..
even pakistan was part of india until india itself decided to separate. at that time, it was decided that kashmir was indian soil. yet you continue to this date to dispute that fact. and are you telling me that in all these years of conflict the Pakistani soldiers have not killed even once?? who killed all the non muslims????
and i wonder why you're so patriotic towards pakistan, don't you live in the US?? 28-year old programmer? and i bet you hate the US with all your heart because they are all non-muslim..
i'm not saying india's perfect, far from it, in-fact. "self-praise" well well well so lets go back to what you said, shall we? whose media was all clean of propaganda again?? which country is better pals with the west? no nation in the world is perfect and i understand that but i'm not sure you do. so far the only thing you've said is "pakistan-US relationship has problems"..so what is your point? that Pakistan is better than India? or that your relationship with the West is better? the US is now accusing you of sheltering al-qaeda. whats your country's reply to that?
and hey, to get back to the movie, did you even watch the part where the afghan driver and the taliban fighter were arguing as to who started the war? i can't even remember who won that stupid argument but the whole point of it was, that it is a stupid argument. if you keep going on arguing about who started the war then it might not end.
and jeeeez!! i haven't insulted you even once!! i'm sure you've had much worse from your next-door American neighbours..
India has always been a geographic entity, never a nation. it was British India which was partitioned in 1947 with the Muslim majority becoming Pakistan, a part of that Muslim majority was forcibly pushed into India, which is the reason we have the Kashmir dispute today.
So the US now accuses Pakistan of sheltering alqaida....so what? it has more to do with american frustration that after six years and thousands of tonnage of bombs dropped, the americans are no closer to their objectives. They need someone to scapegoat, sovereign states likes Pakistan and Iran make convenient scapegoats.
I dont think you have any clue about Pakistan, India or the subcontinent. You have read some news stories and watched bollywood movies, that why all you speak is nonsense. Make points, dont make insults or wild claims.
abbas sab, i am from india, a few things i find objectionable about pakistani policy
1. why is it not a secular but a muslim country. would you want your country to become secular now?
2. does it believe that religions make countries?
3. why cant a muslim state be a part of another non-muslim country.
4. on ptv i did not see many optimistic comments about india. I would have loved to see some. I agree indian media has also started to be quite bad which is very unfortunate. I wish they would have shown it much like they showed the taliban guy in the movie.
5. there have been madarssas where along with religious teachings sometimes inacceptability to other religions is taught. I would be very happy to know if it is no longer there.
about india I agree recently there have been movies that have unilaterlally picked upon pakistan the way they have wanted. in the end of kabul express they need not show the pakistani post people as heartless when they showed everyone else as with a heart. it was artifical and not inline with the message of the movie. that one incident killed the movie for me. and yes the two guys in the movie were nothing but bumbleheads. you are right when they showed them joking right after shoing the killing of women it showed a lot of insincerity of part of the director i was almost going to go away from the movie but middle parts saved it.
reply to your questions, to the extent I can answer them:
1)no. I am fine with my country being an islamic state as it does not exclude non-muslims.
2)No. Religion can be only be a foundation for nationhood.
3)I dont really know the answer to that. A muslim "state" would by definition be independent. If you are talking about Muslim region like Kashmir, it can certainly be a part of a non-Muslim state if the people want it.
4)Every media pushes the national interest of that country. I have come to believe that it is silly for pakistanis to look for positive coverage of them in indian media as vice versa. I believe there is no such thing as "neutral journalism" in the world.
5)some madrassas have been reformed, others shut down, others continue to operate. its v difficult to deal with them as religious folks are blindly sympathetic to madrassas and some of their students are always ready for violence.
I did not see your post before so sorry my reply is four months late but its a reply nonetheless.
dude..LOL ..LMAF..this is what exactly the movie says..there are no pakistanis in afghan....watch the movie dude....
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This is amazing. Be it any forum there is only one thing the bafoons from subcontinent are really capable of doing and that is slinging mud on each other. I have seen that happen on the BBC cricket forums to the extent that it had to be shut down and now here.
Grow up.
LOL, you realize no one is 'slinging mud'. Its all debate, sensible debate. If you dont like people arguing and supporting their sides, go sit in a corner with your imaginary friends, who Im sure would love to agree with you on everything imaginable.
sharePlease before pointing fingers at each other and making rash, irresponsible and biased statements about each others nationalities in the name of patriotism please get your facts straight.
If you are untrust worthy of the media that originates in the two opposing countries it is best to get the facts form a neutral, unbiased news source. It is our responsibilities as educated citizens not only our respective nationalities but of the world to know, understand and comprehend our long, trumatic and chaotic history and reach a rational soultion. It is far to easy to hate, criticize and belittle. It is much harded to truly ponder, rationalize and reach a logical conclusion through civility and dignity.
I hope these links help eliminate some of the mis-information and bias that each group has developed against the other. It will take time and effort for both parties to trust each other, but the seed of understanding needs to be sown somewhere. Education and communication is the key.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/south_asia/03/kashmir_future/html/default.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1735912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/south_asia/2002/india_pakistan/timeline/default.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1762146.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2739993.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3181925.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/country_profiles/1154019.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/country_profiles/1157960.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4797762.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3725357.stm
I hope this helps eliminate some of the mis-information that lurks with people from both countries. I say this from personal experience, I am an Indian child from the 80's. Every since I could think straight I was aware of the estrangement between the two countries through askewed information from history lessons and growing up in India society for the first part of my life.
But only as a student of journalism did I finally fully understand the indepth details of the conflict. Its about time we stop taking our history and liberty for granted and spout bullsh*t in the name of nationaism.
PS: If you are skeptical of one news source please do your own research!
The BBC used to be credible uptill about 3 years ago. Now they focus on the Indian market, you will find all sorts of stories from India but only negative stories and attitude towards other nations in the neighborhood, especially Pakistan.
I dont trust media anywhere, to be frank. Modern media's job is to keep a conflict going somewhere, even a mundane development in the conflict is portrayed as something huge. Add in accusations, insults and denunciations and you have what we call "journalism".
However I appreciate your attempt to look at both sides of the issue.
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be consistent, u say uk-pakistan is buddies, now u say BBC is untrustworthy
so accoring to you EVERYONE in the ENTIRE planet is scum only pakistanis are good nice and fair people?
this is talk i have heard many times over, only pakis do religion properly so on so forth,
come on...... as they said in the movie, has religion's weight has been granted to pakis only???????? any other religion is incorrect?
also this bull propoganda bout india being biased is CRAP!
we welcome pakistani artists and bisuness open handed, i have myself met and interviewed memebers of STrings, who are really really popular in mumbai, even the band Jal is hugely popular along with singer atif aslam.
show me ONE indian group who goes to perform in pakistan ????
indians are pretty much open minded, and we dont bow down to simple terror mongering (7-11 mumbai train blasts- 91 mumbai bomb blasts)
ever heard of india going around the world blowing up people?
india hasnt invaded any country in the last 5000 years.
pakistan has formed barely 60 years ago and they already are saying things like we r greater than india????? and waged war on us 4 times over...
keep saying whatever u want, but the world knows the truth.
This is YOUR LIFE and it is ending one minute at a time!
You guys have too much time on your hands!!
Stop hurling insults back and forth, no good has ever come out of it in the past, nor would it acheive anything in the future.
It was a stupid movie that got panned at the box office as well, BUT, it is just a movie. Take it for what it is.
btw, just to clear the facts, Who said non-pakistani channels are not allowed?
There are channels from Australia till Zimbabwe & every place in between(that includes India), available Nationwide.
A mad man can scream from the roofs all he wants. He still remains mad :).
self-praise mixed with false facts and goofy logic=The typical Indian attitude.
For your info, Pakistan was formed 60 years ago, so was INDIA. The "India" before 1947 was always a geographic entity.
There is no shortage of terrorists and insurgents in India. They are the who detonate the bombs, for which you always blame Pakistan.
Pakistan artists also go to UAE and USA and UK to perform. If they come to India, what is your point?
Oh and the BBC's content is not controlled by the UK government.
dude refer to my post titled "anti pakistan"? where you will find the answer to your "religion" point.
indian artists themselves choose not to perform in pakistan. pakistani pop industry is superior to indian pop industry; that is why there is little demand of indian pop songs in pakistan. indians themselves say that pakistani pop is a superior product. it is a simple demand and supply analysis my friend.
conversely india has a superior movie industry and that is why indians want their movies to be shown in pakistan. but pakistan should not allow their movies unless they stop making films about pakistan and islam because no matter what happens they will always show a supremacy of india and supremacy of religious dilution, which pakistan and islam are against.
india had a secret plan to bomb pakistan after the missile tests conducted by pakistan in response to indian tests. owing to american pressure india could not go ahead with that plan. this is very secret only a handful of people know about this. so this is your answer to the question of "india going around the world blowing up people."
what do you mean india hasnt invaded a country in the last 5000 years? pakistan has also not invaded any country in the past million years? dude both countries are 60 odd years old, in fact pakistan is a day older :)
the talk is not of being greater or lesser than india. that is kids' talk; we are just discussing our points of view, providing justifications where we feel necessary.
C'mon, in the grand scheme of things both India and Pakistan fu*kd each other over. And WHY did they fu*k each other over and continue to do so?
Because Britain came in and created a bigger rift then there was already. Then they ditched it 'n let the Muslims and Hindus kill each other off. I mean, GHANDI wanted to keep the country together, he didn't want a partition. Thousands of people didn't.
How can't we get along? We had to seperate because there was ignorance on both sides, we were both killing each other. But as usual, we were young, and we're still young now, except we have the benefit of hindsight. We're both *beep* in our own sense.
THE USA CIA ONLY TO LATER BE USED AS AN EXCUSE FOR IMPERIALISM OF AMERICA
an aweful movie with absolute baseless so called facts and a typical indian attitude in the movie .... everybody knows by now even if the prime ministers car gets punctured its supposed to be done by some religious funamentalist trained in pakistan by ISI...the sad bit is Pakistan helped afghanistan and provided them shelter until the 9/11 (which i personally believe wasnt even done by afgans or taliban or whatever) and still they are not thankful for all the support like it was their birth right.
i dont hate afghans they are brothers for Pakistan... but Pakistan also has to mind its own existance and external pressure is a factor that no country can just ignore.
well i can just go on forever but the bottom line is it was a aweful movie made by a typical pathetic indian formula and biased mindset....what a wastage of precious time and bandwidth.
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