anti pakistan?


I think most people will agree with me that is movie has anti Pakistan overtones. Yes in the end it is shown that Indians and Pakistanis can be friends too but it comes as a wasted compromise since everything before the ending seems to be disparaging to the Pakistani people.

First, a bit about the history of the region. Pakistani military supported the Taliban on the recommendation of USA. It wasn’t something the Pakistani public supported. But the message this movie conveys in that Taliban ARE Pakistan. Let us remind ourselves that Taliban are or were AFGHANS, not Pakistanis. A very small minority of Pakistani troops sided with the Taliban after the US invasion; most Pakistanis troops were ordered to kill them as the movie also outlines. Almost all Pakistanis refuse the extremist and crazy lifestyle of Taliban but this movie shows otherwise.

Second, this movie portrays most Afghans as homosexuals. What such bias? Of course the movie deserved to be banned from Afghanistan. If men have very conservative or backward views about women that does not mean they are sexually attracted to other men.

Third, Pakistanis are shown as corrupt and dirty people. The Pakistani government is constantly lambasted with insulting language. What was the point of the Talib urinating in front of Khyber? What was that scene meant to prove? Later Khyber protested at this action by Talib, so that tells you what that scene was meant to convey.

Fourth, that inexcusable dialogue by Talib when he says “Madhuri Dixit dey do aur Kashmir ley lo” which translates to, “Give us Madhuri Dixit and take away Kashmir”. This is a filthy and inexcusable dialogue. No one in Pakistan would accept Madhuri as a compromise to forget Kashmir or to forget the struggle of Kashmir people’s right to self determination. That shows Pakistanis are perverted sickos who would abandon their support for a movement that has lasted for more than fifty years, for an actress. That is a completely untrue representation of Pakistan.

Fifth, it is shown that Talib is a violent and uncivilised person whereas Khyber, the “Indian minded Afghan”, is a peaceful and decent person. Pakistan is much more modern and developed than Afghanistan and it is hard to believe that a Pakistani would be like this whereas a local Afghan would be so different. Pakistan feeds millions of Afghan refugees and it would not be wrong to say that Afghanistan survives on Pakistan’s support.

Six, this movie insults Islam. When Talib gets ready to pray he asks Sohail (the Indian Muslim journalist) whether he prays and tells him that his religion is probably weak because he is an Indian. Sohail’s response is that Talib should look at himself because he prays with a gun right beside him. If this movie was made by a Pakistani or any true Muslim, it would have shown that Sohail gets influenced by Talib and joins him in prayer. I laughed thinking that Khyber, an Afghan Muslim (Afghans are known for their zealous praying ethic; they don’t miss prayer in any event) just sits their supporting Sohail when he is the one who should care the most about prayer being an Afghani. This is more evidence that this movie displays untrue things and is biased. This movie should have shown all Muslims joining each other in prayer, despite their different social and political views. Instead it seems to convey that prayer is a barbaric and insensitive act because it is being performed by the extremist and uncivilised Talib, but not by the Indian or Afghan Muslim. The Taliban considered themselves at war with the USA. If Talib cannot be expected to pray with a gun beside his prayer mat, what is he expected to have beside him? An Indian flag?

There are more, less trivial criticisms of this movie but I don’t have time to state them. What is most regrettable is that this movie is directed by a Muslim who seems to have no respect for Islam, Pakistan or even Afghanistan and instead wants to show that India is a flawless and civilised nation. This is the type of behaviour that makes Pakistanis develop a grudge against India and Indian Muslims. As they say, hatred breeds hatred.



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an indian movie is by default anti-Pakistan.

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and pakistanis, by default, hate Indians.

So is it really so profound that they're going to find a way to get their panties in a twist over this movie?

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[deleted]

Pakistan is a victim of terrorism and an effective fighter of it. Americans fight terrorism the wrong way in Iraq and Afghanistan....through the use of brute force.

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[deleted]

Pakistanis problem with India is Kashmir. You learned something new today.

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[deleted]

...man,everything's gonna be allright.
If you hate India & Indians stop watching Bollywood movies!
We are all the same in this short journey,called LIFE!
Trust me...

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I replied to this post a couple years ago, but my old account is gone and so is my post. So i'll go ahead and post another reply, because seeing this thread again gave me the same irritation as last time.

First, a bit about the history of the region. Pakistani military supported the Taliban on the recommendation of USA. It wasn’t something the Pakistani public supported. But the message this movie conveys in that Taliban ARE Pakistan. Let us remind ourselves that Taliban are or were AFGHANS, not Pakistanis. A very small minority of Pakistani troops sided with the Taliban after the US invasion; most Pakistanis troops were ordered to kill them as the movie also outlines. Almost all Pakistanis refuse the extremist and crazy lifestyle of Taliban but this movie shows otherwise.
Obviously not everyone in Pakistan supports the Taliban, obviously not the entire Pakistani government supports the Taliban, but nothing changes the fact that the Taliban did have Pakistani support. You even admitted it in your post, that Pakistan supported the Taliban because the USA wanted them to.

By the way, the Taliban are primarily Pashtun, not just Afghans. As i'm sure you know, Pashtunistan is divided in half between Afghanistan and Pakistan. One of the characteristics of their rule in Afghanistan was Pashtun-supremacism. And the Taliban are also active in Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan is fighting the Taliban, but at the same time, corrupt elements in Pakistan are supporting the Taliban still.

Should the movie have pretended that all this didn't happen? You can't rewrite history just because certain historical facts make the Pakistani government look bad. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
Second, this movie portrays most Afghans as homosexuals. What such bias? Of course the movie deserved to be banned from Afghanistan. If men have very conservative or backward views about women that does not mean they are sexually attracted to other men.
First of all, what the heck does this part have to do with Pakistan?

Secondly, I didn't see anything indicating an attitude that MOST Afghans are homosexuals. That's ridiculous. There was ONE Afghan character where that was hinted at.

In any case, there is a genuine serious problem with militants in Afghanistan sexually abusing young boys, for example. And while that subject wasn't necessary for this movie, I don't think its presence in the movie necessarily indicates an attitude that most Afghans are homosexuals. Besides, if MOST Afghans were homosexuals, then the Afghan population would be dying out. No one's stupid enough to think that.

You're being too sensitive.
Third, Pakistanis are shown as corrupt and dirty people. The Pakistani government is constantly lambasted with insulting language. What was the point of the Talib urinating in front of Khyber? What was that scene meant to prove? Later Khyber protested at this action by Talib, so that tells you what that scene was meant to convey.
This part of your post in particular pisses me off (no pun intended). Imran made Khyber follow him out of the car so that he could stop and pee for a minute without Khyber driving away and leaving him in the middle of nowhere. I thought that was pretty obvious. That's also why Imran took Suheil and Jai's passports right afterward, so he'd have some collateral and they couldn't just take off and abandon him before getting him to the border.

In any case, the Pakistani government IS corrupt and only a fool would deny it. I for one have nothing against Pakistan in general at all, i'm even rather fond of it, and I can say that. Stating facts about a country doesn't automatically indicate a bias. The Pakistani government IS corrupt. Look what happened just two months ago, where Osama bin Laden was found right in the middle of a major Pakistani army town. Don't pretend there weren't some corrupt Pakistanis involved in protecting him there.

One of the problems here in America where I live is that people would rather stick their heads in the sand and let this country rot than admit that there are some very serious problems here. The U.S is falling apart, and these people who would rather remain willfully ignorant than admit to problems, because it wouldn't be "patriotic" to acknowledge serious flaws in our system and government, are doing a huge disservice to this country. Admitting problems is the first step. If we pretend they don't exist, then they won't get solved; they'll just get worse. I say this in order to give you a piece of advice. If you want to defend Pakistan, then admit to your country's problems and take part in trying to fix them. Don't pretend that everything's all sunshine and candy there.
Fourth, that inexcusable dialogue by Talib when he says “Madhuri Dixit dey do aur Kashmir ley lo” which translates to, “Give us Madhuri Dixit and take away Kashmir”. This is a filthy and inexcusable dialogue. No one in Pakistan would accept Madhuri as a compromise to forget Kashmir or to forget the struggle of Kashmir people’s right to self determination. That shows Pakistanis are perverted sickos who would abandon their support for a movement that has lasted for more than fifty years, for an actress. That is a completely untrue representation of Pakistan.
Right, because you know exactly what's going on in the mind of every single one of Pakistan's 170,000,000 people. I'd say you're being more presumptuous than the filmmakers were. No one, especially in India, is under any illusion that the majority of Pakistanis would give up on Kashmir. I think you're reading too much into that part. He probably didn't even mean it literally; it was just a lighthearted moment, and if there was something beneath it, i'd say that it was just to show that Pakistanis and Indians might actually have some things in common and don't only have things to fight about.
Fifth, it is shown that Talib is a violent and uncivilised person whereas Khyber, the “Indian minded Afghan”, is a peaceful and decent person. Pakistan is much more modern and developed than Afghanistan and it is hard to believe that a Pakistani would be like this whereas a local Afghan would be so different. Pakistan feeds millions of Afghan refugees and it would not be wrong to say that Afghanistan survives on Pakistan’s support.
First of all, anyone who denies that the Taliban as a group are uncivilized is seriously delusional. They throw acid in schoolgirls' faces for God's sake. But contrary to what you're saying here, I think this movie did a great job of showing Imran as a civilized individual. He was only in the Taliban because it was his job he was given as a Pakistani soldier. And as the movie progressed, his human side was shown more than his Talib side. He even explicitly denounced the Taliban as "uncultured idiots" at one point.

As for the rest of your point, obviously Suheil and Jai were going to get an agreeable guide. I don't know if it's common practice anywhere for people to hire guides who are gonna treat them like sh!t, but I strongly doubt it. What would you prefer? That Khyber behave like a barbarian? Didn't you just complain earlier in your post about this movie showing Afghans in insulting ways?
Six, this movie insults Islam. When Talib gets ready to pray he asks Sohail (the Indian Muslim journalist) whether he prays and tells him that his religion is probably weak because he is an Indian. Sohail’s response is that Talib should look at himself because he prays with a gun right beside him. If this movie was made by a Pakistani or any true Muslim, it would have shown that Sohail gets influenced by Talib and joins him in prayer. I laughed thinking that Khyber, an Afghan Muslim (Afghans are known for their zealous praying ethic; they don’t miss prayer in any event) just sits their supporting Sohail when he is the one who should care the most about prayer being an Afghani. This is more evidence that this movie displays untrue things and is biased. This movie should have shown all Muslims joining each other in prayer, despite their different social and political views. Instead it seems to convey that prayer is a barbaric and insensitive act because it is being performed by the extremist and uncivilised Talib, but not by the Indian or Afghan Muslim. The Taliban considered themselves at war with the USA. If Talib cannot be expected to pray with a gun beside his prayer mat, what is he expected to have beside him? An Indian flag?
Are you for real here? Seriously? Here you are denouncing perceived generalizations throughout your post, and then you bitch because the Afghan character doesn't behave according to every stereotype people have about Afghans?

Already by that point, Imran had taken Khyber hostage, beaten him repeatedly, and tried to kill him twice. If someone did all that with you, would you pray alongside him? Even if Khyber is a deeply religious person, I would be pretty surprised to see someone as strongly anti-Taliban as him praying alongside a Talib, especially with all the aforementioned events that took place between them.

And let me make another point. In 1978, Afghanistan developed, by itself, an atheist Communist government. Can I ask, who do you think organized and executed the coup that brought the Communists to power? Who do you think was in the PDPA (People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan, the Communist Party, which was brought to power in the coup)? Who were those people, as the Soviet Army was withdrawing in 1989, who lined the streets and waved red flags and threw flowers at the Soviet troops? Afghans! It might come as a surprise to you, a person whose head is clearly filled with stereotypes even as he denounces others for being the same way, but not all Afghans are exactly like the Taliban.

As for your wider point about Muslims joining in prayer and whatnot, not all of the world's 1.57 billion Muslims are exactly the same. Some don't pray 5 times a day, some don't even pray every day. And don't forget that at the moment you're referring to, the Indian journalists hadn't yet begun to bond with Imran. At that point, he was still just the Talib who had hijacked them. And in any case, the Taliban aren't the best people to follow the example of in matters of religion.
There are more, less trivial criticisms of this movie but I don’t have time to state them. What is most regrettable is that this movie is directed by a Muslim who seems to have no respect for Islam, Pakistan or even Afghanistan and instead wants to show that India is a flawless and civilised nation. This is the type of behaviour that makes Pakistanis develop a grudge against India and Indian Muslims. As they say, hatred breeds hatred.
See, right here you acknowledge a disagreement with a fellow Muslim and denounce him, saying that he "has no respect for Islam". Doesn't that deflate what you were just saying in the previous paragraph about how all Muslims are supposed to be exactly the same? Maybe Khyber feels about Imran the way you feel about this director, and that's why he wouldn't pray with him.

In closing, I want to say that I disagree with your general point completely. This movie wasn't anti-Pakistan at all in my opinion. If it was, why did it humanize Imran so much? Why did the Indian journalists essentially befriend him the way they did? It would have been easy to make Imran a mindless sort of villain who behaves like a gorilla and shows no signs of humanity, and try to show that image as being representative of Pakistan and Pakistanis. But this movie didn't do that. I'd even argue, if I may be so bold, that this movie made an effort to be friendly toward Pakistan. The Pakistani nation and people, I mean. Obviously this movie pulls no punches as far as the government of Pakistan is concerned. It even portrays the Pakistani government as betraying its own people for the sake of American support. If that isn't a clear separation between the Pakistani government and Pakistani people, I don't know what is. Imran himself is killed in the end, after he's been humanized and has essentially become a friend of the Indian characters. If this is meant to show something, i'd say it's that (as I said earlier in this post) Indians and Pakistanis don't have to be enemies just because their governments are; that when you get down to it, they're not such different people.

In fact, that's the whole point of the movie, actually. That often we and our enemies aren't such different people; we're all human beings in the end.

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I liked the movie and no, i'm neither indian nor am i pakistani but i did feel that throughout the film, there were anti-pakistani tones. It is so evident. By the way, i'm of South Asian descent and no, i'm not Muslim.

Firstly, the Taliban WERE supported by a portion of the Pakistani govt. Operative word. WERE. Right now, it would seem that the only probable link between Pakistan and the Taliban is the ISI. And as for your comment that half of the pasthuns are straddled in Pakistan, why don't you clarify which part of Pakistan? It's the NW frontier. And unbeknownst to you, majority of Pakistanis are actually Punjabis, not Pasthuns. Historically, Punjabis and Pathans (as they are known in South Asia) are not how do we say this..natural allies. You have failed to completely understand the intricacies of the Pakistani community so..SHUT IT.

No one's denying that Pakistan is free from problems but i'd say India should not be the one pointing fingers. As far as i am concerned, India is on the same level as Pakistan. A government so totally incapable of being free of corruption and always being swayed by religious sectors.

And most bollywood films i've seen, are anti-pakistani. As was this movie.

But one thing i had to disagree with the original poster. I thought the ending was poignant, perhaps a sign that the Pakistani army is so freaking confused as to its aims, it no longer knows what's what. ISI's involvement in the Taliban is unfortunate but one has to note that the ISI is mostly noted as a rogue element of the Pakistani government.


Part of my heritage is in Pakistan and i so want it to do well. And having movies from BW with such anti-pakistani tones, will do no one any good. The only movie from BW which i thought was good, was Tere Bin Laden. Funny as hell.

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Firstly, the Taliban WERE supported by a portion of the Pakistani govt. Operative word. WERE. Right now, it would seem that the only probable link between Pakistan and the Taliban is the ISI. And as for your comment that half of the pasthuns are straddled in Pakistan, why don't you clarify which part of Pakistan? It's the NW frontier. And unbeknownst to you, majority of Pakistanis are actually Punjabis, not Pasthuns. Historically, Punjabis and Pathans (as they are known in South Asia) are not how do we say this..natural allies. You have failed to completely understand the intricacies of the Pakistani community so..SHUT IT.
You need to chill out. I don't disagree with a single thing you just said, nor am I unaware of it, and yet you talk like you're schooling me, as if anything you just said contradicts anything I said in my post. It doesn't.

As for the matter of Pashtunistan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Areas_pachtun.jpg

As you can see on that map, the Pashtun region is essentially divided in half between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe not literally half, but I wasn't being literal; I was only making a point. The geographic distribution of Pashtuns is larger in Afghanistan than in Pakistan. But according to the Wiki article about the Pashtun people, there are a few times more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan. About 13 and a half million Pashtuns in Afghanistan, about 44 and a half million in Pakistan.

And nowhere in my post did I deny that the majority of Pakistanis are Punjabi. It was not "unbeknownst" to me; I just didn't bring it up, because it wasn't germane to my point. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant, actually.
No one's denying that Pakistan is free from problems but i'd say India should not be the one pointing fingers. As far as i am concerned, India is on the same level as Pakistan. A government so totally incapable of being free of corruption and always being swayed by religious sectors.
Didn't deny that. Again you sound like you're arguing with me (if i'm wrong, I apologize), but I don't disagree with what you just said, and i'm all in favor of calling out hypocrisy. There are just as many problems with the Indian government as there are with the Pakistani government. And anyway, I don't judge nations just by their governments; I happen to think that most governments in the world are comprised largely of scum who don't represent the people they govern at all. I don't like the governments of India or Pakistan. But i'm rather fond of both countries and I hope to visit them both someday.

I personally don't have a pro-Indian bias or an anti-Pakistani bias. Quite the contrary; I frequently defend Pakistan from uninformed idiot Westerners and Indians who keep spewing out conspiracy theories and ridiculous myths about Pakistan, its people, its government, its agendas and what role it's playing in the region and world. After Osama bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad, I spent weeks arguing with morons who insisted that bin Laden and the Taliban are wholly supported all the way up to the highest echelons of the Pakistani government. They're incapable of seeing things realistically; everything has to be black or white for them. Just days ago I was arguing with a jackass who insisted that Pakistan is governed by some massive death cult that's going to use its nukes or give them to terrorist organizations at the first opportunity (after having them and doing nothing with them for how many years now?). So no, I am not biased against Pakistan, just because I criticize its government and the flaws in its system.

"When a man tells you he got rich through hard work, ask him: Whose?"
- Rousseau

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Not really. Study Pakistani history, and you'll soon find that even reality is anti-Pakistan. And stop propagating the myth that Pakistan actually cares about the people of Kashmir. They don't care about their freedom fight, and would NEVER give them independence. Watch the relevant interview with the former head of ISI: he confirms that "Kashmir's freedom struggle will be 'put on hold' the minute in joins Pakistan".

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