MovieChat Forums > Der Baader Meinhof Komplex (2008) Discussion > An incredibly well made piece of crap.

An incredibly well made piece of crap.


The film is incredibly shot and the attention to detail is striking. But the film had zero interest in explaining who these people were, what they were doing, why they doing it and ultimately why I should give a damn. I would have killed for a title card at the start to explain some context. I would have loved for characters to have been properly introduced instead just thrown in our face one after another. I would have cherished some structure instead a format best summed up as "This happened and then this happened and this happened and then this happened...". And two and a half hours can go quickly, but this film makes you feel every painful, back braking minute. Shockingly terrible.

Axxon N. The longest running radio play in history.

reply

[deleted]



(MSN addy [email protected] Feel free to add me!)

Disagreed, I loved it.

reply

The characters were nobodies at the start of the film. They were nobodies until the very day they died. The only thing that made them stand out was their willingness to murder other people. People who were more remarkable than them in almost every way.
Starting the film with an overview of who these people were would have been rather useless, since there wouldn't have been much to say. What you need to know about them is shown in the film: They were killers. They were terrorists. They had their ideology. And they followed it through.
Still, as people, they were nothing.

reply



(MSN addy [email protected] Feel free to add me!)

True, but that doesn't affect the quality of the film.

reply

well said aaron-698

reply

"well said aaron-698"

On the contrary, it was simple-minded, boorish twaddle. Opinions such as his don't need to be shared, since they are the only ones permitted on television, the radio, and newspapers already. The success of the World Wide Web is largely predicated on the fact that its the only place where we can hear a different sort of opinion. Spamming the internet with mainstream opinion is both rude and useless. Persons of his ilk should limit their commentary to films such as "Beverly Hills Chihuahua."

Gamera is really neat! He is made from turtle meat! We've been eating Gamera!

reply

They're terrorists- their agenda made no sense, their goals made no sense, their methods made no sense. There is little need to "introduce" the character of a terrorist when the point of the film is not to provide biography on the likes of Ulrike Meinhof or Andreas Baader- the point was to document the events that occurred where the RAF was concerned.

But if you need character development of a terrorist, then I'll sum it up for you (with apologies to Denis Leary for plagerising his summary of "The Doors"):

I'm pissed off and I'm nobody; I'm pissed off and I'm a murderer; I'm pissed off and I'm in prison; I'm pissed off and I'm F$*KING DEAD!


Magnificent B'stard

They say you're judged by the strength of your enemies.

reply

"They're terrorists- their agenda made no sense, their goals made no sense, their methods made no sense."

How silly. Tell me, what is a "terrorist," anyway?


Gamera is really neat! He is made from turtle meat! We've been eating Gamera!

reply

"They're terrorists- their agenda made no sense, their goals made no sense, their methods made no sense."

That was the point. They really thought by making homemade bombs and using a few machine guns they could overthrow the German government. You need an army of thousands and usually heavy artillery to achieve that goal: USA vs. Britain in 1770's, Russia in 1917, Soviet Union in 1991.

The RAF were paranoid and delusional.

reply

Oh I don't know about the RAF not achieving their goals. They certainly left West Germany different then it was. In West Germany the right-wing movements have always existed and used violence to achieve their goals. It was only with the RAF that the left began to shift it's focus from using passive peace resistance to also using force. It's not like the right wing hadn't done that ever since, well, forever.

reply

...except that West Germany only existed for about 45 years, making your post sound really silly.

And, yes, political institutions of all stripes have consistently relied on violence and repression of one sort or another for the past several thousand years, regardless of which "wing" they supposedly belong to.

reply

Dude. Soviet Union got disbanded by a small meeting of just a few people in a dacha in the woods of Belarus (Yeltsin's coup against Gorbachev before Gorbachev regains power following the operette coup attempt by the Soviet hardliners in which 3 people died in the streets). What "armies of thousands" and what "artillery"?

reply

Yeltsen was in the streets with thousands of protesters, and tanks were under his control in Red Square shelling the "The White Building."

reply

No, Yelstin climbed on a tank at White House while the tanks were sent there by the military/KGB coup attempters. It was in 1991. There was little bloodshed.

He sent the tanks to shell the White House in 1993 to put down the uprising by the parliament and his own vice-president (who were supported by the population, but the military and the security forces fully obeyed Yelstin). There was lots of bloodshed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhQpLZcnDGY

And the White House is not even in the Red Square.

reply

They really thought by making homemade bombs and using a few machine guns they could overthrow the German government. You need an army of thousands and usually heavy artillery to achieve that goal

I think you're wrong there, radiodude, although perhaps that's because of what I see as the film's only real weakness, its lack of politics. The thing about left wing groups of any sort is that there tends to be endless discussion of the finer points of theory, and although that is hinted at here, the film could have done with a Ken Loach style scene (like the meeting at the centre of "Land and Freedom") where the thought processes of the protagonists and the way they developed their ideas from those of (non-terrorist) thinkers like Marcuse and Gramsci was made clear.

Someone further down the thread makes the perceptive comparison with "Battle of Algiers" and the RAF saw themselves as a catalyst like the early FLN - their actions would make the state crack down hard on people's freedoms and expose the nature of the capitalist state for what it was. This would lead to a popular revolution. They may have been wrong, and indeed deluded, but they weren't so infantile as to suppose they themselves could directly overthrow the government.

I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

reply

No doubt you're a freedom-loving Amurikun, whose ignorance is only surpassed by his hatred and bloodlust.

reply

Opinions such as his don't need to be shared, since they are the only ones permitted on television, the radio, and newspapers already.

Agreed. Caractacus23. Besides, if the Red Army Fraction were terrorists for planting a few bombs, what does that make the USAF who dropped hundreds of thousands of much bigger bombs on Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia?

To adapt one of Ulrika Mienhof's comments from the film, kill thirty people and you're a terrorist, kill thirty thousand (or three million) and you're a statesman.

(Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize...)

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=cambodia_655

I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

reply

I may be late in replying to this post, but it needs to be said: Ulrike Meinhof was by no means a nobody. Maybe the name means nothing to YOU; but who are you? In Germany she was a highly respectable journalist, and had she not made the bad decision to align herself with these sociopaths she would have come out of this with her reputation not only intact, but as one of Germany's major voices for sense and compassion of the era.


Remember that this is a German film. I was living in Germany during the period depicted in the film. It was made primarily for a German vierwership, and no introduction was therefore needed, as the charceters involved and their stories are household names in Germany. If it had been made for the English speaking world the filmmakers would have filmed it in English using American or British actors.


Remember that America/Britain is not the hub of the world; do not expect everything to be spoon-fed you so that you can understand. As it is, though I was familiar with the story and the names Baader/Meinhof, I did not know many of the details, and I think the movie was clear enough in differentiatiing between the motives and characters of the major perpetrators. It showed that Ulrike was a well-established, middle class mother and journalist before being sucked into the gang; it showed her devlopment, her failure, her collapse; anyone reading between the lines can imagine the guilt she must have felt at the end. She sacrificed her precious children -- for a reign of terror.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

Clearly you quite jaded, aaron-698.

I gather you'll disagree but you views are quite rigid and, frankly, pathetic.

reply

It would be a good idea to read about the people who made up the RAF. I would like to see this movie but it hasn't been released in the States and one day I came across Stefan Aust's book at Barnes and Noble but I can't afford it yet so I went to the library and checked out Hitler's Children by Jillian Becker and it did explain alot and when I see this movie it will help with knowing who these people are.

reply

It makes a huge difference if you knew something about this subject beforehand.
I thought it was brilliant. Saw it with my school and we had a whole subject about terrorism and this group in particular as well. The events like the demonstration etc are all welldocumented and you can begin to understand why some did what they did.
But they were far out.
I loved this movie.

reply

I thought it was an excellent film, despite not being too clued up on the history of it. It intrigued me so much that I'm on the lookout for a book or two that covers the people and events portrayed here. Job done, as far as the film is concerned...there was a hell of a lot to condense into just over two hours and I think they did a very good job.

Thought the acting was top notch, too.

AndyG

reply

[deleted]

it's on netflix. they even have it on video stream.

reply

It's a German film, about recent German history, made for Germans who most likely lived through the events. JFK doesn't have a title card at the beginning explaining who the president was, who the major players were, etc. This film, like that one, assumes that you have a conversant knowledge of the topic by virtue of growing up in the culture in which the events transpired.

It's a fascinating period of recent history that deserves to be looked into. I would highly recommend it because of the extreme relevance it has to other ideologist, freedom fighters/terrorists throughout the world today.

reply

Exactly -- good point about JFK. That film assumes that the Americans watching will remember the key references, persons, and historical details. I watched the film (and I am not a German citizen), and I was able to follow the story and appreciate the significance of the historical events, even if I didn't always recognize names or specific incidents. It is ridiculous to argue that every detail should have been introduced with some kind of title card, because this film was not made specifically for foreign audiences.

reply

[deleted]

There is enough in the movie to explain why the people are doing what they are doing. There is the opening protest that quickly becomes a scene of violence and hysteria; the speech scene in the auditorium; the shooting of that speaker minutes later; the numerous montages of strife around the world: JKF and MLK assassination, Che's death, protests in Paris and Czechoslovakia. And so on. They were leftists with extreme ideals that put them into action in protest against American foreign policy and what they perceived as a police state in West Germany and these details are mentioned, discussed and reiterated constantly throughout the film. That should take care of your second and third sentence. I don't know what your definition of properly introduced is, so I cannot fairly tackle that postulate (although I will say that the Petra character was not fleshed out that well prior to her death). And your structure remark is one of taste and opinion, so I cannot fault you there, however, I think the straight forward, "viewable history" shows how the group's actions escalated very well. So, to conclude, you should pay better attention to the movies you watch.

reply

[deleted]

You complain it was superficial, no background/explanation, stereotypes, no depth, etc. It was already a 2.5hr effort... what did you want, 2.5 days?
What part of "Its a Movie" don't you understand?
You mention "no moral compass". May I suggest you stick with fiction and watch old reruns of "Superman"? That way you will not have to think for yourself and consider the complexities of the issues involved.
Were you making popcorn when they developed Meinhofs character? They did a wonderful job of showing her metamorphosis from left wing journalist to radical terrorist.
Back to the "moral Compass" issue... one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I was greatly impressed that they chose to play down the moral issue.
But we most certainly do agree on one point. Wouldn't it be nice to know and understand more of the background, more about the key players, more about what set up this whole chain of events (Hitler's Germany, WWII, the aftermath,the silence of the generation of Germans who were the players parents, Ex nazis in power after the war, the "promise" of socialism, etc).

So while you were in front of your computer whining I was in front of mine on my local librarie's website ordering a copy of "Baader-Meinhof : the inside story of the RAF / Stefan Aust ; translated from the German by Anthea Bell".
Might I suggest you do the same to get the some of the answers to the questions you raised?
What a concept! "Read of Book!"

reply

"one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. "

Can we please stop with this stupid, trite and overused quote? No, some terrorists aren't freedom fighters by any means-- they're just terrorists and criminals, which the RAF were.

I was actually Leftist-leaning in college (and even participated in a Marxist organization at one point), but there was universal revulsion for the Red Army Faction from all quarters. What sort of "freedom-fighting" do you think the RAF was engaged in, exactly?

They were obviously bitterly opposed to US actions in Vietnam (as many were) and saw the West German government as oppressive (but more than the Stasi or KGB?). But even if one accepts such a flimsy premise, how do they defend the Vietnamese (or stand up for the oppressed in general) by, uh, bombing a bunch of poor, working-class stiff newspapers staffers? Or shooting and killing a bunch of working-stiff cops? Or bombing some department store in Germany? Is there some red-line telephone between the German department-store manager and the US General Westmoreland in Vietnam?

It's precisely your kind of attitude-- so easily condoning obviously self-indulgent and criminal acts against innocent people who have absolutely nothing to do with the supposed conflict at hand or the cause being fought for-- which leads such causes to destruction. The RAF might've started out with justified indignation at the heavy-handed response to that student protest shown at the film's beginning-- but they were utterly incompetent at 1. choosing a more nonviolent (if still firm) path of protest that would have drawn broader support, and 2. if they were going to engage in political violence, at least trying to come up with a sensible justification for it. Not just the above examples, but also the hijacking of the Lufthansa jet (WTF do the passengers have to do with their cause in that case?), or the attack on the embassy in Sweden (again, how does killing a bunch of embassy workers back up their cause?) show how confused and blundering the RAF really were.

This film worked well because it showed that however sincere the RAF started out, they lapsed into self-indulgence and the self-justifying criminality of losers no matter what their ideology. And losers they were-- practically all the RAF members were killed or imprisoned, and the movement was destroyed, mainly because its members couldn't decide exactly what they were fighting for and against. The term "freedom fighter" could maybe have applied to the Irish Republican Army-- their methods were also reprehensible, and they caused far, far more damage than the Baader-Meinhof Gang ever came remotely close to (and thus should be condemned by right-thinking people). But the IRA at least had something of a cause in the N. Ireland occupation by England and Britain, which is why the IRA survived as a movement despite the atrocities they committed. Same for the Afghans who defeated the British and slaughtered the occupiers in the 1800's-- they killed quite a few camp followers (i.e. civilians, including Indians) in the process, and their methods were often very brutal, but at least there was something of a cause there (fighting a foreign occupier). The RAF had no such cause to speak of, and they wound up killing and wounding mostly the very people (working stiffs of all stripes, and contributors to society who in many ways might have sympathized with their indignation about Vietnam) who could have otherwise been their supporters. The RAF members were freedom fighters only in their personal fantasies. And the result is that rather than being seen as people willing to sacrifice for a cause (like e.g. John Brown, Michael Collins or Toussaint L'Ouverture), history rightfully casts the RAF as losers and criminals who did nothing more than rob banks and hurt a lot of innocent people who had no connection whatsoever to their confused ideology or the US war in Vietnam. They're pathetic and their movement collapsed because of it, a richly deserved outcome.

reply

Do you enjoy living in your closed, little box?

You're the problem. You're the terrorist and you don't even know it.

reply

I thought what he said was really well stated. But I'd really like to, with an open mind, hear your POV in response to it.

Just to be clear, I'm very aware of the hypocrisy and terrorism conducted by the US gov in the name of the American people. But the Baader-Meinhof gang seemed to me to be no more than a bunch of pretentious thugs that were really no better. That's the problem with trying to achieve revolution by violent means, the revolutionaries end up becoming tyrants just like the tyranny they're trying to overthrow. And the callousness in which they killed the innocent to achieve their ends was viscerally repulsive. But yes, I'm aware that western governments are in many ways no better. But I don't see how that excuses the actions of this group and I found it hard to sympathize with them. I just didn't identify with their "cause" probably because I just didn't see them as oppressed like I would with other oppressed groups, like your interlocutor was saying, to free themselves from the exploitation of an imperial occupying power. What made you sympathize with them?

reply

No, some terrorists aren't freedom fighters by any means-- they're just terrorists and criminals

How about the French Resistance? The Vichy government and the Nazis certainly called them terrorists.

Nelson Mandela also springs to mind...


I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

reply

GGRRR!!!Lefist nerd rage!

reply

GGRRR!!!Lefist nerd rage!


GGRRR!!! Rightist inability to perceive the world in anything but "good ol God fearing boy vs. doobie smoking tree hugging liberal" rage!

reply

Nah, fail. I like leftists ok, I was just making fun of leftist nerd rage. The right wing hype, that's what I use the ignore button for.

reply

"Lack of moral compass?"

What?

Are you scared to make up your own mind?


I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

reply

"the film had zero interest in explaining who these people were, what they were doing, why they doing it and ultimately why I should give a damn. I would have killed for a title card at the start to explain some context. I would have loved for characters to have been properly introduced instead just thrown in our face one after another."

The makers of the film probably assumed that persons who lack a rudimentary understanding of the history of Western Europe in the second half of the 20th century would simply have little interest in seeing this movie.


Gamera is really neat! He is made from turtle meat! We've been eating Gamera!

reply

Yes, Caractacus23, you are 100000000% correct.

I'd say world history not just Western Europe history. I, for one, found it to be a fascinating broad-brush history lesson of just what the *beep* is going on nowadays and how this terrorist world got its start. LOTS of things built to a head and blew up into WWII. And the repercussions from that are still with us and causing the current world to blow up all over the place. And how many people in today's world (especially in the US) have even a little clue???

I did not know about these events being this tied together when they happened long ago. US newspapers are absolutely horrible about giving any type of analysis at WHY something big is going on. They just report "a plane got hijacked" and have a photo or two or some of the more gore junk involved. Nothing intelligent to say. This movie really tied things together better. And made me wonder if Patricia Hearst was inspired by any of these people. WOOOOOOPS...wasn't she acquitted? I don't even remember because the papers muddled that whole affair up so damned much at the time.

Wait...now for those of you under 60, there was this little girl named Patricia...and then she grew up...and....oh you know the rest. Just watch the film and you'll get the idea. She was bad and had guns and sh*t.

At any rate, don't watch the film if you don't like history and don't have some knowledge of these events first. I'm sure there are resources to look this stuff up on the web.

I really liked this film...great realism and actual clips and tense. I did not think it crap. And I missed the opening scene which someone said had naked kids in it. Thank God otherwise I'd be very uncomfortable.



reply

[deleted]

Totally with you on this, brother - all style, no substance. Garbage

reply

Well, approppriate to describe terrorists who are crap anyway.

Play it again Frank, I don't give a damn.

reply