MovieChat Forums > Der Baader Meinhof Komplex (2008) Discussion > Heroes or Villains

Heroes or Villains

posted 12 years ago by [email protected]
24 replies | jump to latest

In reading the reviews posted on this site, I've been surprised and appalled by how many express sympathy with the politics of the Baader-Meinhof group. While it is unquestionably true that protests about what was happening in Germany and elsewhere in the world were justified, even laudable, the murders, bank robberies and kidnappings committed by this gang of deluded youngsters cannot be excused or applauded on any moral or ethical basis. They knew exactly what they were doing and, if the film is as accurate as friends and foes alike concede, they gloried in it. Baader is portrayed as egotistical, flamboyant and uncontrollably angry, Ulrich as thoroughly selfish and unstable, and Ennslin as driven by an ideological fervor that borders on insanity. Treating them as idealists, which some reviewers do, is to regard terrorism as innocent when it is, in fact, deliberate murder, often of bystanders. Treating criminals, which is what they people were, as "political activists" demonstrates an inability to recognize the difference between legitimate protest and actions that are far beyond the pale. The political position taken by the German Government at the time the Baader-Meinhof people were in full cry might not have been to the liking of the German left, but Germany was no longer a dictatorship. There were plenty of channels available to the government's critics including the path followed by those like Willy Brandt who ultimately defeated the ruling party.

[–] greenbanzanas 12 years ago

Total and complete heroes!

[–] ktowny 12 years ago

Nobody is a hero for killing innocent people. Regardless of how anyone feels about their 'cause', murder isn't the way to go about it.

Love's turned to lust and blood's turned to dust in my heart.

[–] LuSiD 11 years ago

Does that mean Obama is not a hero? What about the European Union which received a Nobel Peace prize? The people who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The people who hide behind "it isn't my responsibility" and "act all innocent" which can cause a violent outburst by those affected?

I've been loving too much, caring too little -- TormentoR.

[–] liutenantsalt 11 years ago

"Does that mean Obama is not a hero? What about the European Union which received a Nobel Peace prize? The people who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasakii"

What a pathetic Tu Quoqe.

"The people who hide behind "it isn't my responsibility" and "act all innocent" which can cause a violent outburst by those affected?""

What does this *beep* even mean?

[–] LuSiD 10 years ago

It shows how sometimes the end justifies the means. It shows how the mass murder of hundreds of thousands civilians (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) can be justified because it serves a greater cause (Japan's capitulation).

Obama, last I checked he's been continuing waging wars his predecessors have started but that fact alone does not mean he is not a hero because you can't change the world's grinding wheel.

You clearly never understood the above and had to resort to an emotional response.

I've been loving too much, caring too little -- TormentoR.

[–] dgz78 10 years ago

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

Both were military and industrial targets. But more importantly, this idea that the bombs resulted in hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

Yes, both bombs destroyed their military targets and at least 200,000 civilian deaths. But in the context of ending the war they saved many more Japanese civilian deaths as well as allied casualties.

Look at a map of Japan. It is not just one or two islands. Then look at Okinawa and how far it is from the main Japanese islands. 150,000 civilians died there as well as more than 70,000 Japanese soldiers and almost 15,000 U.S. soldiers.

Estimates for the number of casualties from invading the homeland islands varied. 100,000 allied soldiers killed was at the low end and more than 1,000,000 Japanese civilians were going to be killed not to mention Japanese army casualties. The numbers are staggering and the deaths from the bombs pale in comparison.

Some claim Truman should have dropped a bomb on some isolated island to demonstrate the power of the a-bomb. But Japan did not surrender after Hiroshima and almost didn't surrender after Nagasaki. Had we invaded Japan and suffered hundreds of thousand casualties, Truman would have been impeached in minutes when it was discovered he didn't use he two bombs.

As someone whose father was getting shipped to the Pacific for the invasion after going from Normandy to Germany, I'm grateful he was spared any more combat. As 4 of my siblings and I were born after 1945 I can probably owe my existence to Truman's decision. And many more Japanese are alive today because their parents and grandparents were not killed in the invasion.

[–] tb-sch 10 years ago

The information about what happened in Hiroshima did not travel fast enough. The city center was destroyed and the whole infrastructure was too damaged to get reliable answers from there. The USA however wanted to try out another bomb type and therefore hurried to drop it before a capitulation was a realistic option.

The first bomb might have saved lives by avoiding an invasion with high losses for both sides as well as showing the world why a nuclear war was not an option - an effect which probably could not have been achieved by detonating it over the water. The second bomb however was simply a war crime.

[–] flokasnn 7 years ago

HEROES!!!
Innocent people???Most of them were pigs,bankers and judges so they deserve it.

[–] Puckdeestubenfliege 7 years ago

Self righteous youthful intelectual villainous singular phenomenon - hence the title.

[–] trynnn 12 years ago

Crazy people, battered by some kind of mass psycosis.

And of the more crazy aspects of the Baader Meinhof, is that since 2007, several of the surviving members have been released from prison! Even though they never have shown any kind of remorse, as to the crimes they commited...
Christian Klar, Birgitte Monhaupt, Eva haule, Rolf Clemens Wagner, Rolf Heissler, and more, have all been released...

For all one knows, these people may be recruiting and be recreating, a new generation of RAF Terrorists now...
If Germany had been caring for their citizens safety, they should never have released any of these terroristts, ever.

Would it have been possible, today, maybe, to have these terrorists extradited to the US, have them prosecuted and executed, for those crimes they commited, also onto US citicens.

[–] glorfintel 11 years ago

Yeah, let's make USA the planetary cop, judge and executioner, all in one (effective) package.
After all, americans are best suited to "get the job done" - even within foreign countries - as seen in all CIA-glorifying movies out there.
Finally, this will surely make things nice and safe on a global scale and help us sleep tight at night.

Oh I forgot, they already play that role. Good call.

[–] malachai_malachai 11 years ago

If they have served their sentences, why shouldn't they be released?

[–] PoppyTransfusion 11 years ago

Heroes or villains: Depends on who you are and where you are in the world. They were idealists and it is disappointed idealists who are most dangerous as they will die for those ideals. The film showed they elicited lots of German support for a good while, which is why they remained at large for as long as they did. Even Gudrun's mother spoke of her daughter's bombing of the department store in such a way that suggested some sympathy or understanding.

Germany was no longer a dictatorship

Not in name but oppressive governments can be dictatorships even when elected.

Away with the manners of withered virgins

[–] culainn64 11 years ago

This film is rubbish and is sympathetic to the extremist on the Left who are nothing more than terrorist with a weak political excuse. So West Germany was a police state? LMAO! That's why they built the wall to keep West Germans out. Pathetic

[–] Post666Industrial 10 years ago

They are heroes for boldly standing up to the systematic murder and terrorism that is capitalism and imperialism.

[–] banhei 10 years ago

Villains utterly. The terrorist mind is an ignoble scumfest. Martin Amis sums up the terrorist mind below:

“[Joseph] Conrad says the two salient things about a terrorist’s mind, what motivates him, are sloth and vanity. The more I think about it, really, the more telling it is. Vanity makes you want to be famous, sloth means you’re not going to be able to do it out of exertion.

“So Mohamed Atta, an immortal name, could he have got that from being a town planner in Cairo? It’s gigantic vanity, and utter sluggardliness. It costs you your life, but but but …” (The National Post, Oct. 4, 2012)

[–] maxtshea 9 years ago

I agree. I thought the movie did succeed as portraying them a sophomoric egotistical creeps. Remember the scene where they go to the training camp in Jordan, and the camp leader is showing them the men's dorm and the women's dorm, and the RAF couple are all, "We're sleeping together. Screw your rules. Can't tell US what to do, we're chic urban guerrillas." It really bugged me the third time I watched it. I found it very hard to muster any sympathy for the RAF.

[–] agentalbert (2320) 5 months ago

Yes, I agree complete villains. Mostly I think they (and a lot of the protesters causing mayhem) are just rage junkies that get off on being part of the mayhem and imagining themselves "freedom fighters/revolutionaries".

[–] MusicMate 9 years ago

Villains, and first and foremost, terrorists. And just like all the others, be it islamic, right-wing or even buddhist terrorists, they deserved only one thing - a bullet to their head.

[–] ajapam34 8 years ago

Why do they have to be one or the other?