MovieChat Forums > The Nativity Story (2006) Discussion > WITHOUT using the Bible, can someone pro...

WITHOUT using the Bible, can someone prove God exists?


Now, I am not intending to start any fights... but I am sure they will happen anyway. So I will appologize up front =/

But yes, I am Athiest. And I have proven God wrong to me using science and logic. I do not believe in the Bible because to me it was only rewritten by prejudice white men that made fairy tale stories into fact and who also stole other ideas from other religions. Now again. These are my opinions. Most likely wont change. But, I was wondering if anyone can prove he exists without using The Bible.

Any personal exeriences?



Expect nothing, and you'll never be dissapointed

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[deleted]

The Bible was not written by "white men". White people come from Europe. The Bible was written in the Middle East, by Semetic peoples, not caucasian peoples.
You're right... my bad. Meant to say, rewritten by white men.

Expect nothing, and you'll never be dissapointed

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[deleted]

I see your point.

Belief in God is rational; disbelief is irrational.
Its rational to you, only because you believe. To Athiests, its the other way around. We believe its childish to believe in a God. Rational means we try to rationalize the situation using logic and science. There is no logic and science in any God, because there is no proof. Believing in God avoids trying to answer the real question of where we came from. Believing in God avoids logic and science... meaning, they are obviously irrational.

We Athiests believe that not one being or one creator can create the vast universe.
Since we are a believer of science and logic, obviously thats one thing we havent figured out. We dunno how the universe came to be, past the whole big bang theory. So, our answer is just "I dont know"... and we are proud of that answer. So yes... Something coming from nothing makes more sense to me, than some mystical God creating it for his own fun and pleasure. We are not a toy.

But the answer to this question from believers of some creator (aka God) is "Oh, some spiritual being created it and everything in it". Now I dont want to say its because you're too lazy to figure out the real answer. I am sure that is not the reason. But thru life, religion had probably been pushed down most people's throats. Even mine.

My whole thing of it is... its like believing in Santa Claus. When we were children, we were CERTIAN he was real. We had proof. We bet our lives on it. I know I did. I swore I saw a reindeer on my roof one year. But it was in my mind. I made it up in my mind he was real... as I did God. When we beleive so long and so much, it becomes real. But it doesnt mean it is real. The truth is out there. But religion isnt the answer. At least to me. I plan to place faith in myself and do things for myself. Have my own morals and standards. Live sin-free, lol.

Expect nothing, and you'll never be dissapointed

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Okay, so you name drop one philosopher who had a disfavorable view of atheism and use him to disparage a blogger's opinions. I won't get into a pissing contest with you over which side has the most "great thinkers."

Firstly, there is the problem of First Cause. Where, going back to the very, very, very beginning, did the matter of the universe come from? So, either Force not limited by constructs like time created it, or it just "happened." What does science, since you're the expert and all, say about something coming from nothing


So you go the ole Thomas Aquinas route of proving god's existence? What are you, twelve? And where does science say that there ever was nothing? There is no proof that the idea of regress ever terminates. And even if the regress does find an endpoint, why endow that terminator (or God if you like) with all the typical powers ascribed to God like omnipotence, omniscience, and creativity of design?

The modern atheist has more blind faith in chance than the average Christian has in God.


You say this while basing your argument on embarrassingly flawed logic. And you presume too much based on zero proof.

To use an old illustration, if a man was walking down a path and saw a rock, he might believe it was the random result of chemical and physical processes. However, if he saw a gold watch, he would see it was designed. No rational person would believe that watch was the random result of physics and chemistry. He can see design. He knows design implies a designer.


If you look at a lake, was that designed? Or was it created by physical processes? Now, look at a man-made lake. Was that designed? Or was it created by physical processes? The appearance of design does not necessarily qualify a designer.

The simplest cell, not to mention plants, animals and men, exhibits a design infinitely more complex than any watch, a fact Darwin was blissfully unaware of 1859. Some of the scientific "experts" here don't realize that science has advanced a bit in the last 150 years. Again, design implies designer.


Okay, I'm not going to waste too much more time arguing with someone who believes in creationism over evolution. Yes, science has advanced in 150 years, and the vast majority of the scientific community reject creationism and support Darwin's evolutionary theory. Prokaryotes are bags of chemical reactions capable of reproduction, propagation, and mutation. Just because we know that a watch is designed, does not imply that a cell was designed. Because then that presents the logical problem: who designed the designer?

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"The modern atheist has more blind faith in chance than the average Christian has in God."

I've heard this kind of thing stated before but never quite so well.

Can God be proven conclusively? I think it's a matter of the individual heart. I see Him evident everyday. I think He's obvious, but, of course, others don't see it that way.
There must be some convincing proof out there somewhere. Some of Christianity's greatest teachers have been athiests (and those similar to them) who became convinced of the reality of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Some of these are intellectuals who will tell you that they set out specifically to prove the Bible wrong but instead came to believe that it is true. Since the question of science has been raised, some of these people have also been scientists who decided to evaluate the facts objectively and came to believe that science does actually point to God. Evidence does not necessarily change a person's heart, though. A number of scientists have also made statements to the effect of "it seems that the evidence points to God, but since I don't want to acknowledge God I choose to continue to believe otherwise."
The simple truth is that if you don't want to follow God you won't regardless of anything I may say. Lucifer believes in God but does not follow Him (in our system of beliefs, of course). It's not a matter of logic alone; it's a matter of emotion and spirit as well. Open yourself to the possibility of God and let Him prove Himself to you.

Stand by for Ludicrous Speed......

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The demand "prove to me that there is a God" often carries the underlying notion that if something can't be proven to exist, then it doesn't.

God is, to many, incomprehensible. But other things are incomprehensible, too: it is incomprehensible that the universe has always existed -- eternity is something that is beyond human experience. It is also incomprehensible that there was ever "nothingness". Nothingness, too, is beyond human experience.

The big bang theory posits that the universe began with rapid expansion from a mass of matter smaller than the head of a pin.

Well, where did that matter come from? Was it always there, or did it just appear? However you answer, you're coming up with something incomprehensible.

ANY talk about origins ends up in the realm of the incomprehensible.


I'm not going to "prove" God exists -- I've no interest in converting atheists, and they have no interest in being converted.

I will, however, point to how I became a believer.


Let me start by saying that I'm an extremely rational person. In fact, it's something of a gift. In university, a philosophy prof once marvelled at my use of logic and reason and even had me stand up in class so he could praise my logic skills.

So I'm not some easily deluded soul.

I was once a fervent atheist. God was an irrational concept. Using reason, I felt I'd proven conclusively that there was no God -- at least in my own mind.

But I didn't stop my thinking process there. Using Anselm and Descartes as starting points, I began to realize that belief in God was no more irrational than atheism.

I don't necessarily believe in anyone's definition of God; I don't think any scriptures are word-for-word truth. I also don't believe any one religion has all the answers.

I do, however, believe that all (or most) religions point to a truth. And if you take the common elements of most major religions, you'll see that they point to the same underlying beliefs.

I'm a Christian because I've chosen to be a Christian. Do I believe everything in the Bible is bang on? Nope.

I also don't believe any governing church body is bang on. Note that I say I'm a Christian -- not a Catholic, not an Anglican, not a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. I'm a Christian, and Christianity has no governing body.

I choose Christianity because it's a familiar belief system.

When you read the New Testament, and read the teachings of Christ, you're essentially reading a guidebook for how to be a good person. Take the religion out of it if you want -- there's still something good and pure about Christ's teaching. The same is true of the teachings of many religions.

Now, when relgious leaders get ahold of scripture they often create rules and establish attitudes that aren't so good and pure, but let's not confuse church governance with religion itself. Religion is inherently good. It belongs to the followers, not to the governors.

I don't care if someone is an atheist. I'm all for free thought, and many atheists have carefully reasoned their beliefs, and can make a strong case. But I think it's pointless and self-serving to challenge believers to prove the unproveable and treat them like idiots for believing something that's no more incomprehensible than atheism.



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And I have proven God wrong to me using science and logic.

How? There are also people who have proven God right to themselves using science and logic, so it's really that clear-cut.

Secondly, just because you think that the Bible was manmade - and even if it was - it would have no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God. The assumption you make here is that if the Bible is a bunch of fairy tales and borrowed religions compiled and written by men (who weren't white, btw), then the Christian god doesn't exist and hence no god whatsoever exists. Which is a logical fallacy on several levels.
But, I was wondering if anyone can prove he exists without using The Bible.

Are we allowed to use the Koran, then?

----
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[deleted]

Well said, cattus. You're absolutely right. Atheists don't pretend to know how the universe came into being. Humans will probably never know for sure how it happened, and atheist don't mind admitting that they don't know for sure.

The other guy said that belief in God is rational and disbelief is irrational. Ummm...come again? I can't see God. I can't hear God, nor can I smell him, taste him, or touch him. I cannot detect him with any of my five senses, and I'm the irrational one for taking that lack of evidence and coming to the conclusion that he probably doesn't exist?

I love how some Christians turn the argument around and claim that atheists are the foolish ones for not believing in an invisible, undetectable man in the sky (who, by the way, has no problem whatsoever with human sacrifice -- i.e. Jesus).

Getting back to the gold watch argument; you're right, no one would see a gold watch in the middle of a forest and conclude that it was made by natural causes. Yet if you believe in intelligent design, you also believe that the entire forest and everything in it was designed intelligently, so there exists NOTHING at all which was unintelligently created to use for comparison. If you see the gold watch, your brain compares it to the forest around you and concludes that the watch must be created intelligently because it appears much more complex than the rest of the forest (like rocks and twigs), yet if the forest was created by god, it would actually be much more complex than any little watch a human could create, so therefore by comparison to God's wonderous creation, the watch should appear LESS complex to the human mind. Find me one person out there that would say a finely-tuned gold watch is less complex than a rock or twig. Find me one.

If God really exists, he's doing a lousy job of proving his own existence, especially considering how in-your-face he was in the Old Testament.

We have to get back to bootblacking! We like it VERY MUCH!

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If God really exists, he's doing a lousy job of proving his own existence, especially considering how in-your-face he was in the Old Testament.
LOL! indeed. People were gullible then and actually believed magicians. Jesus was probably nothing more than Davin Blaine or David Copperfield. An illusionist. People had not explinations for the things he did... so they said "He must be the son of God". And notice, Jesus never denied it or admitted it. Hell, even if he admitted it, that would show a sign of arrogance. That, and I hate people that boast about how they are better then others. Arrogance. Grant it, he may not of lied about who he was, but sure had no problem going along with it. Sounds like the average human personality to me.


curious analogy about the gold watch... I like it. Had to re-read it there... lol. You definately have a point. God must have just been lazy and said "Here's something for them to ponder over"... bs. My opinion, we already have enough proof to disprove God. Most people are too stubborn to listen to the science and logic.

I figure, if we already know for a FACT that one (probably 2 or more) portions of the Bible are false, then shouldnt that mean the entire thing is false? You cant say "I believe the whole Bible... except for these few verses". You cant believe in something that has already been proven false. In order to believe, you have to believe the entire thing. You cant just pick or chose what in the Bible to believe.

Expect nothing, and you'll never be dissapointed

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let me ask you atheists, can any of you find the probability of the big bang? if the universe is constantly expanding, whats on the outside of the universe? can you prove that it wasn't god? you cite science and reason in the same sentence. science is exporing the irrational.

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The "Big Bang" theory and any other theory scientists have come up with are just as irrational as the belief of God.
And why should there be proof God is real? Thats why they call it faith.
"And so the lion fell in love with the lamb....."-Edward Cullen

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"I still believe that no God exists whatsoever... epsecially the Christain God".

My brother, the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God. I know that you do not believe... so if you don't believe, why not try to call on Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you? Then He will show you His power and will direct you to the right path. Try it, you will be surprised at what you see and feel. PM me when He does reveal Himself to you. A great experience!!!


"This half saturated in darkness, that half consuming all that I stand for"

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Where does it say that Albert Einstein believed more in God the more he learned about the universe? I'm pretty sure he remained consistently agnostic to the end of his life, rejecting the idea of a personal god while embracing an arbitrary, poetic, Spinoza sense of God.

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In answer to the Albert Einstein question, I did a little searching on the Internet and apparently during his research on the theory of relativity he kept coming up with the fact there must be a finite beginning to the universe. I am not a scientist so I am sure you could find much more technical stuff out there on this. He just theorized that if there was a beginning there must be a creator. I believe he believed in a creator God. Which by the way, is why I started believing in God. I could see all around me the way everything relates to everything. Trees give off oxygen which humans and animals need. Humans and animals give off carbon which trees and plants need. The intricacies of how the human body work, how the planets, sun, moon work, the atmosphere we have to live in, etc. All this to me points to the fact that it had to have been thought out.

However, ultimately it is not something that someone else can prove to you even with the Bible. It is a choice we make whether to believe in God or not. My reasons for believing probably are not good enough for you and your reasons for not believing in God are not good enough for me.

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Actually, you're wrong. There is absolutely no possible way to prove that God does or does not exist.

Saying guns kill people is like saying spoons made Michael Moore fat

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Yeah I agree. It can't be proven either way.

Hey what part of the bible were you refering to when you said it has been proven not true? (sorry I can't remember ur name lol)

I believe there is science that backs up God, i'm not too great at science though so I don't wanna get into that too much.

My science teachers believe the big bang theory and they teach it all as fact. Sure it's fine if you believe it, but you shouldn't be allowed to teach it as fact unless it really is fact. And that will never be proven as fact, neither will God; only once we're dead and gone.

Anyways, I believe in God and I believe Jesus is God's son, however recently I've been questioning 'chrisian' Not so much the religion itself but the baggage that goes along with it. So much generalization AHH! And so many things out-there christians do that I don't agree with.

Hmmm a little off topic I see lol. I'm good at that.

Miracles is something I believe God does to prove himself to people.

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The reason that atheist are now, and have always been, a distinct minority, is because most people see God as self-evident. They don't demand proof of what they as see as obvious. Can you prove you exist?


So the majority of people in the world know better than me? Heh, good one.

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Prove God exists without using the bible. Well I dont think it can be done even using the bible. But before you knock christianity just remember this, Jesus said or supposedly said "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son (Jesus). That whosoever might believe in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life." JOHN 3:16
Now the only thing Jesus is asking you to do is believe in him. Just believe he exists or exsisted. Whats so difficult about that? He didnt say do this and do that. Just believe. Thats all. Everlasting life. Sounds good dont it. Believe.

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Now the only thing Jesus is asking you to do is believe in him. Just believe he exists or exsisted. Whats so difficult about that? He didnt say do this and do that. Just believe. Thats all. Everlasting life. Sounds good dont it. Believe.


It's hard because one shouldn't have blind faith. That's Muslim extremists for you.

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Well Jesus didnt spawn the Muslim religion. That was Muhammad. And really nothing wrong with blind faith seeing as you can never have all the answers anyway. Just because i wasnt here at the begining of the universe should i not believe one ever existed. Just because you havent seen any aliens should you not believe they could exist? You have to believe something. My faith in God gives me strength. Regardless of anything i can prove.

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I hate to say it... but you have taken that verse OUT OF CONTEXT ... I think you need to read the rest of the book of John to see what that verse means! Jesus is not saying "believe" with just "intellectual" faith... The Bible teaches that it is NOT just believing Christ existed... Also you may want to read Matthew 7 to see what Jesus will say to those that claim to "know" him or say that they "believed," when these people still lived their life as though he never gave them a law to obey.

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For Riggs, first of all, who are you to say what Jesus means when he says believe. How do you know he means, not believing with intellectual faith. He says "Whosever Believes In Me". Sounds pretty straight foward. I dont think it says anywhere in the bible its not just believing christ exists. Because if you really believe he exists, than you will seek to do Gods will. As for Matthew 7 I think your referring to the part where he says "Many will say to me that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you." This is what some will say, trying to escape hell, but it is not stated that they actually did these things. Second of all, no matter how good you think you are you will always be a dirty rag when compared to the righteousness of Jesus. Nobody is sin free. If you believe in HIM, he will not forsake you!!

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In Matthew 16:24 Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." It is not just intellectual faith, but is also a way of life. Many confuse “intellectual faith” with the true “saving faith” that the Bible teaches. “Intellectual faith”--knowing and believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he died on the cross for our sins, and then rose again (proving he is God), but keep in mind that is not a saving faith because of this…

The Bible says, ‘the devil believes’ (James 2:19) and if anyone in this creation knows who Jesus Christ is, it’s Satan… and yet the Bible says what God has in store for him. "Intellectual faith”—knowing facts and statistics about Christ, and believing them to be real, is NOT enough. And in reference to the verse in Matthew 7:21... In my opinion, it is one of the most fearful verses in Bible. It states that on “judgment day” NOT everyone that claims they know Jesus Christ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY those that DO THE WILL of the Father who is in heaven.” So many people are mistaken when they say that the most important thing on the face of the earth is to know Jesus Christ—that is actually not true… The most important thing on the face of the earth is that Jesus KNOWS YOU. For example, I’m not going to get into The White House if I walk up the gate and tell everyone I know George Bush, but they will let me in if George Bush comes out and says, “I know Justin (me).” As I continued to read a few more verses (in Matt 7:23), it tells us what Jesus will actually say to these people that think that they know him. Jesus says, “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me you who practice lawlessness.’” In an accurate translation of this verse, Jesus is saying, “Depart from me, those of you who claim to believe in me, who confess me as Lord and, yet, you live as though I never gave you a law to obey.” Unfortunately this describes the great majority of Christianity today (and devastatingly, my so called “Christianity” at one time). Now I also want to make it clear that this does NOT mean "salvation by works," because in Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” You see, there is absolutely nothing we can do to try to earn God’s favor. However, the Bible also says, “that faith apart from works is dead.” (James 2:20). So what does this mean? It means that you cannot “earn” your salvation, by being a “good” person… However for a true Christian, who puts his faith in Jesus Christ, and really desires to be like Him, those “good deeds” will just come (but not in a way that we are trying to “buy” our way into heaven, but in our response of "taking up our cross and
following him" ...Because Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commands.” (John 14:15). This is just evidence that your “faith” is genuine.

So how do we know if we “truly believe” in Jesus and aren’t just misled? How do I know that God has a place for me in heaven? One of the most important things about understanding the Bible is understanding that entire Bible encompasses what it means to be a true Christian (so we cant just take key verses that sound good out of context and think we know what they mean). The message of the Bible is that genuine “saving faith” is this… It is a “relationship” with Christ. Meaning that not only do you repent of your
sins and completely turn from them, but the main focus of your life is to talk daily with God, to try to be more Christ-like, to continue to know him by meditating daily on the Bible, and to desire with everything in you to serve Him. To essentially make Him “Lord of your life.” In a way of speaking,
falling in love with God… where God is sincerely your ALL! Where you think about Him constantly… Where He consumes you… And as a result of this new relationship, one will strive to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16)—in gratitude for him choosing to save me, not as a way to “earn” salvation. This is true “saving faith.”

So, how can one be assured and know that they’re a true believer?

Many would respond, “Well, I just know that I know.” The Bible says, “there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end leads to death.” (Prov. 14:12)

Many would also respond, “Well, I know in my heart of hearts that I am saved.” The Bible says, that “the heart is deceitful above all things.” (Jer. 17:9)

Even some would respond, “Well, I know I’m saved because the priest/preacher told me I’m saved.” Since when did men have such authority? Jesus clearly states, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matt. 28:18)

And, the most dangerous response of all—“I know I’m saved because at one time in my life, I prayed a prayer and asked Jesus to come into my heart.” You’ll will not find this in any scripture... and this somewhat “superstitious” response can lead to many “false converts.”

In 2 Corinthians, Paul came to a church and spoke to the many of them who were professing Christ, but living a life of sin. Note that he doesn’t say to them, “When was the time that you first accepted Christ into your heart?” He doesn’t even refer to their conversion experience. He goes right to present tense and says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail the test” (2 Cor. 13:5)

For illustrative purposes, if I were to let’s say, for three or four years seem to have walked with God, endeavored to pray, to know the Bible, to congregate with other believers, and claimed to be a man of faith… and then I began to fall away gradually, allowing the world, and sin back into my life… I can’t expect someone to say to me “You know you’re a Christian and you needed to avoid backsliding,” They would actually be more justified to say, “You have ‘declared’ among many that you are a Christian, but now you are beginning to live just like everyone else again. It is very possible that you never knew
Him.” For up until this point, I had been deceiving myself into thinking I was actually saved... because we can easily fool ourselves into thinking that we are still saved, because we feel it's just that we got “lazy” in our faith. However, an important thing to realize is that if a “work of God” does not continue, it never was a “work of God.” The Bible says that if God begins a work in someone, He will finish it until the end. (Phil. 1:6) So if someone becomes a “true” Christian, as taught in the Bible, he will remain a “true” Christian. For Jesus says that all those who truly follow Him, “will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of [his] hand.” (John 10:28) The Bible also makes it clear that if you’re a Christian, “Neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate you from God.” (Rom. 8:38-39)

So again, Paul says, “Test yourself!” This is not just some whimsical thing. This is not just something that we should worry about for a day. We’re talking about eternity. If we were to test ourselves in the light of Scripture, will we be found whole and complete, a true Christian, born again (as described in
John 3:3), kept by the power of God? So many people need to stop relying on emotions, and stop comparing themselves to other people who call themselves Christians, because the great majority of people in America who call themselves Christians are lost! We must seriously examine ourselves—daily. And this is not something to take lightly. If you ever visit South America, in the Andes Mountains, you would find that everywhere you go, you have to cross footbridges––gorges that you almost couldn’t see to the bottom. You have to test the ropes and test the wood… You have to ask yourself, “Is this a sound bridge? You must examine it carefully. Why? Because if you get out in the middle of that thing, and it breaks, you’re dead! In the same way, the salvation that people hold onto, that they trust in, is not rooted deeply in scripture… and when they swing out into eternity, many people are going to swing out on this superficial salvation… and it will turn out to be as weak as a strand of hair, and when the fires of hell blast up, it will wither and they will fall. I learned that we need to take the Word of God, and what the Word of God says about a true Christian, and examine ourselves in light of it. And if we fall short of the test, we should continue to repent and believe. I’ve learned to throw myself upon the mercy of God. As a human, I am so weak… and I continually let God down …but I continue and will continue to cry out to Him until he has molded me into one of His “children” …I will cry out until a work is done—a true work, a finished work, a complete work… (which, of course, will never be fully completed until the end).

There are so many people today that are still being persecuted for being a Christian. I heard about a child who the Muslims shot five times through the stomach and left him on the sidewalk simple because he cried out, “I am so afraid but I cannot deny Jesus! Please, Please don’t kill me, but I cannot deny Him!” He then died, laying there in his own blood… And so many people in our country call themselves Christians simply because they go to church every week… and looking at them during the rest of the week, there is no substance to their faith… they have NO IDEA what it means to be Christian. At that time, even looking at my own life made me feel like such a hypocrite.

When I think about how sinful and depraved we are, it is incomprehensible that God sent his son to die in our place. In light of this, it is a desire of my heart to give him everything. Now again I’m not saying that a Christian has to be perfect because the Bible says that even Christians still sin. What
I’m saying is this… If a person is a genuine Christian, “born-again” (as it is referred to in John 3:3), and a child of God, he or she will walk in the way of righteousness as a style of life. To the point of being so aware of your sins that the second you commit one you say, “Lord, please forgive me for that
sin and help me to catch myself before I commit it next time.”--That is true repentance. And in doing so, if you ever step off that path of righteousness, God will come for you, discipline you, and put you right back on that path. The Bible says that in doing all of this, you can test yourself. You can
compare your present-day life to the Word of God and if you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, where he is truly the center of all you do, you can be assured that “you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom” that is heaven. (2 Peter 1:5-11)

I just realized that so much of our nation is deceived by others telling us what the Bible “really” says, without reading it for ourselves. So much of my so-called “Christianity” was based on key verses, well known passages, Christian song lyrics, and even misleading sermons, and not the Bible. I was
guilty of never really opening my Bible much and truly studying the Word of God. I basically relied on people who have studied the whole Bible to “tell me” and “interpret” to me what certain passages of scripture say. Don’t get me wrong, however, because going to church is a very important building block
for instruction, but that is why it is crucial to be in a strong church that is preaching the real gospel—the good and the uncomfortable verses. Since making a commitment to truly follow Christ, my life has never been the same. Although I still fail at times, God continually lifts me back up because he
knows the sincerity of my vow. And it is a wonderful thing to be able to examine my life daily and know that if I were to die at any moment that I will be spending eternity with God, because he “knows” me!

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[deleted]

If what you say is true Higgs then explain to me this verse: Romans 10:9

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I like how you say this here, yet in another post you claim to be a born-again Christian...
http://imdb.com/title/tt0762121/board/thread/76808394?d=82470751#82470751

[I was being sarcastic about liking that if you can tell...]

no wonder the world hates us when we have people like you making us seem to contradict ourselves. fantastic...

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[deleted]

Why is everyone saying there is no proof... What about this verse:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. -Romans 1:19-20

If you want "scientific" examples of this proof check out this 3 DVD series (Netflix carries them)...
"The Privileged Planet" (disc 1)
"Unlocking The Mystery Of Life" (disc 2)
"Icons Of Evolution" (disc 3)

My atheist friends who saw them all agreed that they are VERY convincing, I dont know if it will convert you on the spot, but provides some EXCELLENT things to think about.

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[deleted]

This is from way back...but I am going to bring it up because I believe it is the one error atheists make.

"I can't see God. I can't hear God, nor can I smell him, taste him, or touch him. I cannot detect him with any of my five senses, and I'm the irrational one for taking that lack of evidence and coming to the conclusion that he probably doesn't exist?"

They believe all that exists leaves evidence that can be detected by 1 or more of our 5 senses. Have you ever stopped to think that because something happened/exists it always leaves evidence? Just a question that I think is worth pondering over.

There is also the argument of first cause (which as been brought up several times already).

One thing I also find interesting is that atheists say God must be proven but it is all right if atheists "don't know" (aka "have blind faith" even though it is impossible to know through the 5 senses and evidence) how the universe was created and for them to just accept it happened, breaking several scientific laws in the process, by a completely scientifically sound process.

It’s ironic that in this age of “tolerance” we are the most afraid of offending people.

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[deleted]

"the hypocrisy is astounding... you believe in God? you are going against nature and science but nature and science hasn't proven that He doesnt exist but that is alright because I can still go ahead and not believe in God... ha?"

I don't quite understand where you're going with this...clarify a bit more please.

"I like that... It is interesting how Christians and believers are intolerant and dangerous but does that do not believe are very quick in expressing their intolerance. If you call them up on it then that makes you even worst for pointing out their faults."

You immediately assumed I was a Christian just because I defended the notion there is a God and then you were intolerant towards Christianity. That line you picked on was actually just my signature which is a satire on political correctness and how it promotes tolerance through intolerance and not really meant to be religious or defending my own religion specifically...I just hate the whole notion of political correctness and its limiting powers on free speech (especially since I am in film production at school and have a tendency to "cross the line" sometimes).



It’s ironic that in this age of “tolerance” we are the most afraid of offending people.

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[deleted]

Oh sorry...I took what you said as being your opinion of Christians rather than sarcasm. One of those flaws of written argument. You pointed out exactly what I meant...the first to want tolerance are the first to show intolerance against others who they deem as not showing tolerance. I was wondering why, if you were against me, you had so many verse references listed on the bottom...now I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding!

It’s ironic that in this age of “tolerance” we are the most afraid of offending people.

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Any personal exeriences?


Yes.

Some I would like to see again and others I never want to see again.





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America put the "fun" back into "Fundamentalism".

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Hey Volatilis

I'm a christian, but I'm not a shove christanity down you throat christian. I'm comfortable with how I feel and I'm compfortable with how you feel...which in reality is how all christians should be, not shoving hell fire and brimestone at you because you don't think the way they do. Do I have any personal experience? sure. But if you truly don't have faith and are looking for the science and logic behind it you can certainly prove it wasn't an act of God. That is what faith is all about. I know where your coming from, I came from the same place. I could prove God didn't exsist, I even wrote papers on it in college...it's amazing how hitting rock bottom and opening your mind can change your perspective. I now know I was wrong, but I think its something we all have to figure out in our own time. Since your asking, I can only assume you really are looking for some answers and I would be more than happy to communicate with you so you can explore what your looking for. Please feel free to email me if you'd like for some non-judgemental banter...or you can chalk me up as a religous nut and both of us can go on our merry way. I hope to hear from you, at least it would be an interesting conversation. [email protected]. Take care. A.

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