MovieChat Forums > Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple (2006) Discussion > Conspiracy Theories

Conspiracy Theories

posted 12 years ago by LuvvieHowell
8 replies | jump to latest

After watching Witness to Jonestown, I started googling to see what was on the 'net about Jim Jones...I was in high school in 1978 and remember vividly the day the newspapers came out with the front page news of the massacre. I worked in a little general store (grew up in rural New Hampshire)...the pictures were awful and people didn't quite understand what had happened.

No one had ever heard of Guyana, and cults were still very misunderstood. There was a lot of fear about "the Moonies" (Reverend Moon's cult)...a 17 year old girl in my neighborhood had joined them, and it was a big deal in our town.

Anyhow...what I wondered was how many folks here buy the theory that this was a CIA operation...that the people of Jonestown were being fed mind-control drugs and that the U.S. govt ultimately killed all of them?

I don't normally buy into the black helicopter, psy-ops stuff..it can drive you crazy...but in this case, some things don't add up. Jim Jones once held a lucrative position in local government...he broke bread with Rosalyn Carter, and other well known people in politics. Why did NO ONE know what what going on? Also, many of the folks who survived the massacre were murdered in the States afterwards...who did the killings, if all the bad guys connected to the People's Temple died in the mass suicide?

Finally, I have a lot of questions about the shooting at the air strip. Did Jones himself order a group or armed gunmen to drive there and start killing? If so, then why does Jones seem surprised to learn that Leo Ryan was dead? Why doesn't he 'fess up about it? Did he think the gunmen were acting on their own? Was this his plan all along? If so, why not take care of the Congressman quickly and quietly, while he was actually in Jonestown, walking amongst the people? Jones had a whole pharmacy of drugs...it seems to me it woudl have been a lot cleaner and neater to have slipped Ryan something in a drink and then claim he had a heart attack, or simply succumbed to the oppressive heat...The shooting at the airstrip doesn't fit with the events.

Another point of contradition I have never understood: there were folks who lived at Jonestown and decided to leave, LONG before the mass suicide. Why didn't mind that these folks "defected?" Why did he start freaking out on that paritcular day?

And finally...does anyone think that he could have been jumped and subdued. What I mean to say is...did these folks HAVE to die? How many armed guards were there, and did they regularly walk around patroling the pavillion or hut areas?

Please, no snarky replies, please. There are some here who like to call people "Dumbass" and I think those posts should be removed by the administrator...so if you can't keep your replies civil, just walk on by.

Thanks..

[–] cowboykalira 12 years ago

I'm not going to call you a dumbass, everyone's opinion is valuable in some way.

I will address your questions though.

- "Why did NO ONE know what what going on?"

People did know there were some weird things going on in Jonestown, and even before Jonestown in the People's Temple community. In fact the whole reason Jim Jones took himself, and his community over to Jonestown, was because of a damning article that was going to be published, consisting of the eye witness accounts of people who had left the movement. Congressman Ryan went over there for the express reason of investigating the rumors about severe punishments, people being forbidden to leave Jonestown, and even mass suicide rehearsals. These mass suicide rehearsals have been witnessed by most of the Jonestown survivors, and a lot of them have testified to seeing them, or participating in them.

- "Also, many of the folks who survived the massacre were murdered in the States afterwards...who did the killings, if all the bad guys connected to the People's Temple died in the mass suicide?"

Obviously not all of the People's Temple followers were in Jonestown. The movement consisted of several thousands of people, and their organisations still existed in the United States. Although many people might have felt the mass suicide to be a horrific outcome, and the event may have turned the majority of them away from the movement, some People's Temple fanatics would gladly have joined in the mass suicide if that's what "Dad" wanted them to do. It might seem incomprehensible, but these fanatics resented those that did defect at the last minute, for defying the decision of the cult leader. In a fanatic cult situation that has already chosen the path of mass suicide, it is only one small step to take it further and kill the ones that did not follow the order.

- "Did Jones himself order a group or armed gunmen to drive there and start killing? If so, then why does Jones seem surprised to learn that Leo Ryan was dead? Why doesn't he 'fess up about it? Did he think the gunmen were acting on their own? Was this his plan all along? If so, why not take care of the Congressman quickly and quietly, while he was actually in Jonestown, walking amongst the people?"

This is where history becomes a question of interpretation, and I agree that it is not certain Jones ordered the killing of Mr. Ryan. I do believe he did, because he realised that his followers who left with the Ryan delegation would not exactly paint a good picture of the movement to the press and the authorities. They left because they didn't like what was going on in Jonestown, namely the indoctrination, the threatening atmosphere, the severe punishments. By staging a dramatic end to his movement, including both the mass suicide, and the killing of congressman Ryan, he believed he could somehow avoid having to face more scrutiny and more criticism of what was going on in Jonestown. Many testimonies by survivors stated that Jones was unraveling, and becoming more and more paranoid and deluded since his move to Guyana, and that he was on drugs. Not all of his actions were necessarily well planned plots, but were in fact whatever sprang to mind as events unfolded.

But even so, if I'm wrong, and he did not order the shooting at the airstrip, this could well explain the mass suicide being such a hurried process, as can be heard in the infamous "death tape". If he didn't order the killing this could have prompted him to think "well, if fanatics in the movement have now decided to kill a congressman, and this will be known in the USA, we don't have a hope in hell. The US army will come down and dismantle Jonestown, taking me into custody, and we may have to defend ourselves against an attack. We will never win in such a battle" and then he could have decided that mass suicide would be the only way out of the situation he was presented with.

- "Another point of contradition I have never understood: there were folks who lived at Jonestown and decided to leave, LONG before the mass suicide. Why didn't mind that these folks "defected?" Why did he start freaking out on that particular day? "

I don't think he didn't mind the defections that took place before november 18th. Again, why did congressman Ryan travel to Jonestown in the first place? He had heard the alegations by relatives of Jonestown inhabitants, and former movement members that people were being held against their will in Jonestown. He denied this when the Ryan delegation was in Jonestown, but I don't believe we should take the word of a man who staged faith healings in the early seventies, and who fled the USA because of an article critical of his movement.

Also, he didn't start freaking out on that particular day, he had been freaking out for a long time, getting progressively worse. His speeches were played in the camp 24/7, he invented cruel punishments for children, he staged fake mass suicides to test his followers' willingness to follow him no matter what he said. None of this happened over night, it grew over a period of at least two years, and probably even longer. All of this has been widely documented in audio and video footage from Jonestown, and by numerous accounts of survivors of november 18, and people who defected before that day.

- "And finally...does anyone think that he could have been jumped and subdued. What I mean to say is...did these folks HAVE to die? How many armed guards were there, and did they regularly walk around patroling the pavillion or hut areas?"

You have to keep in mind he had a fanatical following. In the "death tape" you can actually hear Christine Miller, one of his followers challenge the suicide plan, but the followers mobbed against her, even though Jim Jones argued with her in a civil manner. Most of the people in Jonestown didn't question their leader's decisions at all anymore. I don't know how many armed guards were there, but then again, I don't know how many would have been needed to control the crowd. Most of them went willingly to their death, the tape even recorded a lot of them professing their willingness to "die for communism".

Cults are a weird phenomenon. I experienced some of it when I was in my twenties and looking for some place to belong. In a retreat in Belgium I participated in a program of alternative therapy combined with ancient tribal rituals. There was a psychologist who led the program, and who officiated as a leader at the rituals. Luckily this man was a rather harmless guru type, but a lot of people would follow him blindly, and spend thousands of euros on his programs. Some of these people signed up year after year, and had become somewhat dependent on his teachings and guidance. After I repeatedly joined in his programs, this leader actually took up an argument with my father without my knowledge, and this led to me breaking away from it, but it could have gone further, and had I run into a more malicious leader it could have potentially harmed me and my family.

What I'm saying is, a conspiracy theory may provide us with an answer to what happened in Jonestown, and that answer might make us feel more at ease with the events, but in my opinion, there is no inconsistency in people following a leader without question, even when it means that they were willing to give their own lives. It happened many times before in history, like in Nazi Germany, like in North Korea. Jim Jones indoctrinated his followers, and for some crazy reason only he himself might have really understood, he decided to use his power over them to persuade them to kill themselves and their children, he could just as easily have persuaded them to kill enemies, or sacrifice their lives in some other way. This is why we must remain critical of any leader, no matter how good his or her intentions may seem. Jonestown is a horrific reminder that unconditional and unquestioning belief in any person or idea is potentially very dangerous.

Take care, and always keep an open mind.

[–] moviefiend-1 11 years ago

thanks for that reply, great little read.

[–] InjunNose 11 years ago

There are a lot of unanswered questions, yes, and the books and documentaries eagerly gloss over most of them. Without plunging too deeply into the subject, here's some food for thought: there was chloral hydrate (a drug used in the CIA's MK-ULTRA mind control experiments) at Jonestown. There was also a CIA presence in the form of Richard Dwyer. Dwyer was deputy chief of the U.S. mission to Guyana, a State Department position, but had been with the CIA since 1959. Representative Leo Ryan, openly opposed to the CIA's agenda, flew to Jonestown after the State Department couldn't, or wouldn't, provide any information about what was happening there. Finally, Jim Jones had a bizarre history in South America, having lived in Brazil during the early 1960s. Neighbors who were acquainted with Jones during this period suspected that he was a U.S. government agent.

[–] chailey 9 years ago

Great discussions and responses to the original post. I personally don't believe that the CIA had anything to do with Jonestown. Jones' mental instability, as mentioned, was of long duration and started in childhood. My own opinion, which admittedly isn't worth anything since I'm not a psychiatrist, is that Jones probably had something like Narcissistic Personality Disorder, thus his lack of empathy and need for constant adulation. Since he seemingly admired communism and the Soviet Union, I don't think that he would be a good CIA prospect. Not that the CIA didn't do some really whack things in that era...

I disagree that most people at the pavilion willingly committed suicide. If everyone was so willing, why the guards with guns? I think that if one person, or a group had been able to break away and run, a lot of folks would have followed them. Of the ones who willingly drank the poison, many had just seen their children die before their eyes, because Jones had cleverly had them killed first. And, of course, many didn't want to die, but had lost most of their free will at that point, due to the cult, and no doubt, physical and mental exhaustion. I mean, if I spent all day working outside in the tropics, ate inadequate food, and then had to listen to Jones rave all night, I'd be a mental zombie too.

I don't think that the Congressman's attempted stabbing was Jones' idea, but I'm not sure about the airstrip fiasco. Jones may have been the supreme leader, but he did have a fanatical cadre around him, and one of them easily could have ordered the hit at the airport. However Jones was devastated by the "desertion" of some of his followers, so who knows. The one person who does know is Larry Layton, the only person convicted of the airstrip massacre. Not sure what he has said on the topic, but if it was his own idea, he'd be pretty stupid to say so.

Regarding people leaving before the massacre/suicide, that may have been true in the beginning of the settlement, I don't know, but by the time that Ryan got there, it wasn't the case. Shortly before Ryan left for Guyana, Deborah Layton, Larry Layton's sister, and one of Jones' higher level people, managed to escape and make it back to the states. It was in part her testimony describing the conditions at Jonestown that prompted the Congressman's visit. It's ironic--she escaped in part to alert the world to what was going on there, and instead she indirectly caused a cascading series of events that led to that pavilion.

I read somewhere (a loooonnngg time ago) that Jones was so sick at the time of his death, that he would have been dead in a month or so anyway. So Ryan's visit was unfortunately timed, to say the least.

Agree that the State department went out of their way to not assist Ryan. He seemed like a decent man who went down there hoping to help out his constituents. I know that some people view him as naive, but people back then were just beginning to learn about cults and their dangers. I do think that the journalists, some of whom had been war correspondents in the past, were more aware of the dangers than he was.

[–] cowboykalira 9 years ago

Interesting views.

I personally do think at least a substantial part of the crowd were voluntarily going to their death for Jones. I base this specifically on the audio footage available in the infamous "deathtape" which records a significant portion of the suicide event, including the "debate" with Christine Miller. This debate is very telling, since it isn't Jim Jones himself who gets angry with her, he is very kind and patient with her, even though he still insists she is wrong. It is the crowd who turn on her for arguing against the mass suicide.

This willingness to follow the order to commit mass suicide was something Jones had been actively testing in his followers before, by staging fake mass suicide events where he served the participants a drink, and when they had drank it told them it was poison. He then observed their responses to test their loyalty to the cause and of course to himself.

That of course does raise another question. When they started, and while the debate was going on, how many people thought this was another one of Jim Jones' dress rehearsals? I reckon it would be quite a few, certainly among the members least close to Jones and the people surrounding him, who thought of it as yet another loyalty test. It could be possible that only when they saw the first dead children they realised this was for real, and at that point had very little time to make a conscious decision or come up with an escape plan.

The exhaustion and loss of free will because of it was as much a part of the indoctrination technique of Jim Jones as it was a product of the circumstances. Scarcity of food (their agricultural efforts weren't anywhere nearly succesful enough to sustain the group, which had grown explosively after Jones' flight to Guyana), as well as the deteriorating mental and physical health of their leader had created a commune that was on its way to disintegration and collapse.

The question is not so much if they wanted to die, but whether they would have resisted much or caused real problems. I don't think there was a lot of evidence found of people resisting, of trying to flee, apart from the survivors we get these witness accounts from. Of course, if you act harshly on someone trying to initiate an escape or an uprising, the chances are you deter most others from trying anything even if they wanted to. So we'll never really know if people really agreed with the decision or were just too scared or weak to resist.

But I do think you underestimate the capacity of the human brain to just completely succumb to a presumed higher authority, such as a cult leader, and when you combine that with the terrible circumstances they were faced with I still believe many people would just gladly accept the order to drink the Kool-Aid.

[–] chailey 9 years ago

But I do think you underestimate the capacity of the human brain to just completely succumb to a presumed higher authority, such as a cult leader, and when you combine that with the terrible circumstances they were faced with I still believe many people would just gladly accept the order to drink the Kool-Aid.

I agree to a certain extent. Many of them were simultaneously whipped into a bit of a frenzy and drank the poison in a sort of numbed despair. I still view the psychological manipulation involved as more murder than suicide, but it's a fine line.

[–] cdjunkee-1 9 years ago

Those that resisted were forcibly injected with poison. Christine Miller for example was injected with it. She argued against the mass suicide and was rebuffed by the mob. People were found injected in the Head, neck, and other areas. So I do believe there were those that resisted.

[–] InjunNose 9 years ago

So I do believe there were those that resisted.

Definitely. Stanley Clayton saw people being restrained and injected before his escape, and 83 of the 100 adult bodies examined by Dr. Leslie Mootoo (Guyana's chief pathologist) had fresh needle marks at the rear of the left shoulder blade.