10 items of fewer
this is bad grammar
shareit sure is..
lol
http://groups.myspace.com/shawshankredemption
MovieChat Forums > 10 Items or Less (2007) Discussion > 10 items of fewer
Glad someone else spotted it! Well done! It's not just me, then!
sharewho gives a *beep*
sharethe subject line has some bad grammar, as well :-)
shareI hate to see the English language sodomised.
I cringe when I'm at the supermarket with the "12 Items or less" Aisle.
What a ridiculous nit-pick. If the movie's title wasn't referancing Express Lanes, your argument might be valid.
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It would probably also be ridiculous, and more than a little nit-picky, to point out that you misspelled a word in your post.
However, I am at a loss as to which arguments are valid and which are not, considering you seem to be the one assigning such labels, so I shall refrain from pointing out your specific error.
Good day, sir.
[deleted]
Oh Jesus. Shut up already. What a stupid thread.
shareJaneJaneJane, Kinda like the originator of this comment thread saying "10 items of fewer". I think "of" is wrong as well. Nit pick that dummies.
share'I cringe when I'm at the supermarket with the "12 Items or less" Aisle.'
I cringe when I see letters incorrectly capitalised, it's "aisle" not "Aisle".
I don't really, just thought it would be a good idea to point out that even the nitpickers get it wrong :-P
Zing!
Keep going, there's probably only a billion or so more examples left ...
The less is the number not items
i love that i'm not the only one who is crazy about that particular grammar hiccup.
that and when people confuse "lay" and "lie." but that's another post.
Hey, didn't I see all of you posters over at the "Pursuit of Happyness" board, complaining about something equally vapid?
shareSaying 'ten items or less' is perfectly grammatical. It may not be part of the ideolect of those who grew up hearing 'ten items or fewer', but for the rest of us 'ten items or less' sounds just fine. The '...or less' might be more common than many people realize, even those who are adamant about their prescriptive grammatical purity. Judge for yourselves:
'ten dollars or less' or 'ten dollars or fewer'
'ten miles or less' or 'ten miles or fewer'
'ten minutes or less' or 'ten minutes or fewer'
For me at least, the first of each pair is what sounds correct and the second sounds really odd.
I would further add that the adjective "less" in the title "10 Items or Less" modifies the entire collective noun phrase rather than just the plural noun "items." While it is true that "items" is a count noun and would merit the adjective "fewer" on its own, the modification of a collective noun may be done using a noncount adjective, as one would do in the following: "playing with less than a full deck." If the title were phrased as follows: "10 or Less Items," then this would be grammatically incorrect, as the noncount adjective "less" would be directly modifying the count noun "items." It would need to be rephrased as "10 or Fewer Items" to fit with conventions of American English. I would argue, though, that "10 Items or Less" does not need correction to fit with conventions. One might reconsider this construction by thinking of it as expressing the idea, "10 items or something less" and thus calling to mind a generally smaller lump of merchandise, a lump conceived of as a unit and thus modifiable by noncount adjectives. The proposed revision to "10 Items or Fewer" simply changes the meaning just slightly to denote that the lane is intended for customers with 10 items, 9 items, 8 items, and so on down to one item, with the item count being emphasized. One might argue that this item count is fundamental to the meaning that grocers wish to express, but then one would be guilty to some extent of intentional fallacy, and grammar corrections must seek only to confine language to conventional usage, but not to tell writers/communicators what they want to express. This material will all be covered on the final exam.
-an English professor from Rhode Island
...I actually understand everything you just said, and that unnerves me. Something that convoluted and highbrow shouldn't seem so... clear.
-Bad waves of paranoia. Madness. Fear and loathing.-
One would have the impression that English professor would know when to use paragraphs.
shareI think I was just "pwned." Indeed, my post should have been separated into 2-3 paragraphs. This is the most fun I've ever had on one of these message boards.
shareTalking of pwned..."on the final exam"...don't you mean *IN* the final exam? :-P
No, I don't care either, just thought I'd add something :-)
Interestingly enough, I think that's a difference between British and American English. Over here in the US, we tend to say "on the final exam" just as we tend to put an article in front of "university." I'm not too sure how that started.
shareWhile it is true that "items" is a count noun and would merit the adjective "fewer" on its own,The problem with this is that is makes absolutely no sense if one is at all familiar with mathematics. Numbers are "count nouns", right? Yet, in mathematics, in modern English, we've always said "2<5" as "Two is less than five", not "Two is fewer than five". So the supposed grammatical convention that "fewer" denotes discrete, countable units while "less" does not makes absolutely no sense in light of the entire discipline of mathematics, which always uses "less" for discrete, countable units. We wouldn't be able to say that "less" is only used in mathematics in contexts aside from natural languages, because all natural language occurrences in mathematics also use "less" rather than "fewer", including proofs with statements written in natural langauges.
If you do a bit of research about it, apparently the "fewer" vs. "less" convention being referred to originated in the late 18th Century via the remarks of a single individual--someone with the surname Baker. I'd venture to guess that Baker was relatively ignorant regarding mathematics, and was simply making up a rule that made sense to him given some regionalism from wherever he was raised.
http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies share
Numbers are not always nouns. In many cases, numbers work as adjectives. When we say "10 items," we are using "ten" as an adjective to modify the noun "items." My post above presupposes that "less" or "fewer" is modifying the noun "items" rather than the number in the original poster's concern. However, I would reiterate that I consider the word "less" here to modify a entire concept, a lump of merchandise, rendering the usage acceptable. It looks like you felt that I was stating that "fewer" was the only acceptable word there, but I was saying that "less" was not unconventional in one way of looking at it.
shareI was actually just using your reference to the "rule" as a launching pad for talking about why the rule makes no sense in general.
I'm not sure why that wouldn't have been clear.
http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies
The distinction between count nouns and noncount nouns is really fairly murky. Think about how people have begun to use "water" as count when referring to a bottle of water ("I'll have two waters."). I think we're probably moving toward a phase where there is no distinction between count and noncount nouns.
Sorry that I misunderstood you above. Peace.
It's how people speak, and it sounds better. As for it being "wrong", there is no universal proper grammar of English or any language. One thing is right and one thing is wrong because it was decided upon a long time ago. It could have just as easily been decided the opposite way, but it wasn't.
Chris J. Nelson
[deleted]
If you sit around nitpicking the title of a MOVIE, then you really need to step away from the computer. Maybe fill out an application. You know, next to to the "10 items or LESS" station at the supermarket?
shareWell Chris, actually spanish has a"proper" grammar; there is an Academy in Spain (Real Academia de La Lengua or Royal Language Academy) to watch over the proper use of the language and every year updates the grammar book. Every spanish speaking country has it's own Academy, and as far as I know they met once a year in order to try to keep european and american spanish not too far from one another...
By the way, sorry if I made mistakes, english is not my first language as you sure noticed.