This film does not exist.


When I sat down to watch WTB I was hoping for a real science lesson. Instead I watched some bizzare new age make believe world where trees don't even exist until we look at them.

Well, then I guess that this film no longer exists as in five seconds I'll forget about it.

The message that we can take control of our own lives is a positive message for my daughter but I will find a better vehicle to deliver that message than some self-possesed charletan.

This film belongs in the library of Kampuchea.

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Wow, that was just the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

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hmm i think somebody missed the point

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Could not agree more with you mark. What the hell is this all about. Plain stupid. Not just the movie, but the whole Ramtha perspective of life.

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That you cannot grasp these concepts does not make the movie stupid. Perhaps you need to take a look in the mirror to find the source of the stupidity you are experiencing.

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This film is a load of crap. If you have any scientific understanding you will find both of the "bleep" films to be wholly laughable.

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Think about it with a rudimentary knowledge of science and spirituality. Then it's really cool, but dogmatists tend to hate this sort of breakthrough stuff. Hint hint.

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er... this is not breakthrough stuff, as anybody with a "rudimentary knowledge of science and spirituality" should be able to see. Hint hint.

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"think of it with a rudimentary knowledge of science and spirituality. Then it's really cool"

That sums the whole movement up so perfectly.

If you know nothing about quantum physics, it seems weird and ridiculous
If you know a little bit about quantum physics, the movie seems plausible.
If you know a lot about quantum physics, the movie is full of mistakes and ridiculous.

You have to be in that special point on the continuum, knowing a little bit about quantum physics, but not too much.


I actually liked the movie, a lot. It got me thinking. Sometimes by telling me things I didn't know (like the neurochemical processes behind depression) and sometimes by giving me puzzles to solve "Hmm... how have they taken this scientists words out of context?"
But ultimately, the movie only has value if you use your own damn brain. Think about which parts are true, which parts are false and which parts are false-but-an-interesting-idea.

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how so? what are your reasons? examples? proves?

not just targeting you, but so many people today just say "blah blah blah" with no prove of evidence. exactly on which part is laughable from which perspective of "your" scientific understanding? do you have every single scientific knowledge in the world? are you sure you know ENOUGH science AND philosophy to say the films are load of crap? and just because the scientific knowledge says so, does that mean this knowledge is the absolute truth? science is always changing ... it can change in any second with a different perspective or with something undiscovered coming along.

basically, without any prove or example, your statement has no strength whatsoever.

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Science is not changing, it's limiting it-self more and more on layers of lies, more rabbit holes, wrong assumptions (http://www.naturalnews.com/041736_modern_science_false_assumptions_consciousness.html), inventing more technologies to limit our mind and by simply requiring prove of everything - it's impossible. Otherwise we wouldn't live in the world that we're living now (everything has its own purpose). However this is just sad how people are blind and can't think them-self (may it's just too much fluoride, aluminium and SLS). What you call science is just controlled by only 5 companies (http://www.sciencealert.com/these-five-companies-control-more-than-half-of-academic-publishing). This West belief system sold to other countries (same as EU now), so everything think as other wants you to think. If anybody's mind would grasp that everything is illusion, that the high-tech technologies such free unlimited energy exists, and you can heal any disease with your mind, the world will change - no more government, money, etc. (some people protecting this global-scale business for thousands of years and they're doing very good job, they don't want to give up either). Many proves are there, it's just everybody is so ignorant. Science vs Chi energy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tb8bWbA678&feature=youtu.be&t=518 - science fails! If they're still planing to measure Chi with voltmeter like here https://youtu.be/RAAB0dbc3Es?t=410 - good luck! Start investigating, if you're smart enough - this will change your life.

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Well i have not read all the posts in this thread but am compelled to respond to Whistles. It appears you are a tad angry with this film, or... you truly believe the concepts discussed are so outrageously inaccurate as to be "laughable". I would be interested to know what it is that upsets you so. I'm thinkin you'd like to know as well.

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That they believe the movie to be stupid is not an indication that they did not grasp the concepts.

The Philosphy of Hypocrisy, I see.

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That was great!

I havent seen this yet. It has been mentioned on a site I belong to. I have heard mixed feelings about it and it has been on tv recently. I might give it a shot.

"Out.For.A.Walk...Bitch."~Spike

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hei man i guess you are more smart than people of the end of movie.

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Intelligence has nothing to do with capacity to understand faith. Just because they listed many titles at the end of someone's name does not mean they are legitimate credentials. Only one of the people in the movie is a current professor, the other is a former professor (emeritus).

The whole thing pretends to be intelligent using anomalies in science and misquoting religious texts, all while people preaching at you using large unfamiliar "scientific sounding" words from people who must be intelligent because their titles say they are.

I loved the movie until I realized that it was pushing its own religion on me at the end. That was not appropriate if this is to be considered at all a "documentary."

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I know what you mean Mark, I had high hopes for the movie but they were dashed. While I do find the movie presents some interesting ideas, the method of delivery tarnishes them. I still enjoyed the movie but if you look hard enough this movie's message is everywhere, and I believe it has been delivered in far better ways already.

By the way MissIfalna and Nimisp3000, you verbaly (ok, typily) attack someone over the fact that their opinion differs from yours? Isn't that the EXACT opposite of the movie's point? To be honest, in my mind insulting someone over such a small thing lessens your own character. In fact insulting someone period.


"To be possessed of a vigorous mind is not enough; the prime requisite is to apply it."

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If conscious beings are meant to "transcend" the boundaries between one another... why do those boundaries exist? Why did evolution work for millions of years and leave you with a stomach that cannot digest food and provide the nutrition to me? Creating an organism with no cellular walls, and no differentiation between individuals would be the simplest and easiest task. Why then does evolution produce billions of individuals with more and more barriers between individuals as the level of conscious thought is increased?

It's because individuality is more important than anyone can current conceive of. Ignoring the benefits provided by a LACK of direct relationship between individuals is foolish if your pursuit is truth, and all these new age "heighten your consciousness" things preach the "oneness of being". If the height of conscious being was oneness, nothing would have ever developed beyond amoeba because there would be no drive to.

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If you didnt like the film then you didnt understand it.

If you didnt like or hated this film then it wasnt ment for you.

Remember that at one time the world was thought to be flat.

You all sound like those people.


This film was ment for all of us who understood it.

Create your own reality

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'If you didnt like the film then you didnt understand it.'
If you actually understood it then youd realise there are some excellent reasons to dislike it.

'If you didnt like or hated this film then it wasnt ment for you.'
Rather stating the obvious there. Who it was ment for is largely irrelevant.

'Remember that at one time the world was thought to be flat.'
because of groundless beliefs.

'You all sound like those people.'
when you consider that this film is also based on groundless beliefs, thats a fairly ironic thing to say.

'This film was ment for all of us who understood it.'
You havent shown an understanding of anything at all. When you want to provide some debate or evidence. Some actual information about what we are, apparently, not understanding, instead of self superior nonsense. Then you may have a point.

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Tieburn beat me to it, but I still had to share the joy I experienced reading your uniquely awful logic.

What we have here is often witnessed, unfortunately, but rarely in such clear and pure form, and in the context of such an interesting topic.

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The topic is up in the air, not only for science to grab. Unfortunately those that seek to understand this phenomenon through other technics then sciences, cannot be disapproving that it won't work, nor that what they are searching for, isn't there. They simply don't know that. Just as inversely, we don't know that of sciences> I do know one thing, science is not a means to an end, that is ultimate failure. Science as we know it, has to evolve, and that is going against the boundaries of common sense, and yet science is not ready to embrace this new challenge of embracing intuition. They think it illogical to jump from building the house ground up towards building the roof. But if you look at the history of science, it is layered with illogical jumps. Thus far, they've been able to put everything in a boat called, the physical universe, but even that, I believe to be untrue. The quantum theory is telling us that>

The question is, what is unlocking this? Untill science is proving futile, will they look for other options and call that science. That's all that the movie is trying to tell you. Nobodies an expert, especially not the mainstream peer to peer review system of science. It now faces another test, whereas in the past, there have been countless acccounts of discoveries in which peer to peer review delayed the whole process of recognition for decades.

I hope this is not one of them.

Sincerely

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Youve said a lot there. Not provided so much as an example to back it up.

'not only for science to grab'
Then what else?

'other technics then sciences'
There are non. Evidence is the only way you can discern what is and isnt true and as soon as you are in pursuit of evidence you are using science.

'science is not a means to an end'
Um yes it is. The end may be ultimately unobtainable but that doesnt change the fact that it is a means to get to the truth of the universe. The only means to get to the only meaningful truth of the universe.

'embracing intuition'
Intuition is worthless as anything but coming up with ideas before science takes over. On its own it does no good.

'layered with illogical jumps'
Name some.

'but even that, I believe to be untrue.'
Explain why.

'The quantum theory is telling us that'
No it isnt. Explain how this is true. (and if you start going in to consciousness ill scream... then go in to explaining things I already have done more times than I can remember.)

'That's all that the movie is trying to tell you.'
Noooo, the movie is trying to tell you to pay money to JZ Knight so she can teach you something that has no actual basis under the guise of a 35,000 year old atlantean warrior named Ramtha...

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No one is objecting to ideas. Not one of the skeptics has made that argument. you appear to be putting words in our mouths so, like many others, you can sound open minded.

Sounding isnt being though and you're missing the problem.

You can believe in what you want, you can claim there are pixies and fairies and thats fine by me. What you can not or at least should not do is twist current knowledge to fit your agenda. That is precisely what this film does, and you cant just dismiss that with a falacious post about it being fiction. Take a look for theories on how quantum superstates break down. You need not take a single word ive said as truth, you don't even need to have an indepth understanding of them, but you should at least look in to it.

The _only_ theory presented in the film. The _only_ theory that was implied as fact in the film. Thats the one that is entirely unverifiable, In every meaningful way it is currently a useless theory.

If this film was purely ideas that would be great. It isnt, it attempts to use science to back itself up. In essence it is an attack on science only smaller in magnitude to nonsense like ID because the group isn't as large as Christianity.

If you can honestly tell me that everyone on this forum would have the same view of this films subject matter if it had given, at least, equal time to the other quantum theories then you may have a point. Or even just told people that an observer isnt just a human being. Given the skeptics have corrected more than one person on these issues id say you'll have a hard time.

You can believe in pixies and fairies but if you start to tell everyone they are true using an obscure interpretation of a science that no one really understands then I will take issue.

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' Oh wait, because they never said or incinuated it.'
It brought out quantum physicists talking with authority on the subject to back itself. In what way is that not incinuating it?

'Hey, heres what we know about science, biology, and quantum theory, this is what we think, take away what you will with it.'
Nooo they said heres the one view of quantum theory we believe in as presented by very knowledgable people. Take away what you will... What would any person without quantum physics knowledge think after seeing that?

'you haven't disproven what the movie has said with any example or counterpoints'
becuase you CANT. You cant disprove a theory based entirely within abstract consciousness that is above anything objective. I can never ever be right (or wrong) because it is entirely within the minds of those making it up! It has _never_ been my responsibility to prove anything. You might as well ask me to disprove God.

'They've done a hell of a lot more do prove their point then you have to disprove them. '
No they havent. Thats my whole argument...

'All you've seemed to do is just 'say' they're wrong 100+ different ways without basing the movie as the control and experimenting against that control. '
No I havent. Ive said they havent provided any evidence, and as far as I am aware I am right. If you want to dispute that then provide me with the evidence they have given. That is pretty much the only reason I am here!

'Based on what you said, they are wrong because they use an obscure interpretation of science when you are nobody to judge what's obscure and what's not.'
No I havent... I have said they have no basis to say what they are saying due to a total lack of proof.

'Now does that make it wrong for me to have ideas of the nature of Pixies and Fairies? Of course not.'
and ive never said it is. What I have said is that implying that pixies and fairies exist with science where science would actually suggest entirely the opposite. (A humanoid form of that size wouldnt stand up to stresses, the wings probably wouldnt function, yadda yadda.) That much is wrong.


'Just don't be Tieburn and claim that WTB is wrong in its entirety.'
Good grief! I have never said its wrong! You are just putting words in my mouth like dozens before you it seems inconcievable to you that I can call this film rubbish while not being able to prove it wrong. I cant prove my super powered bottle tops, my incredible fridge magnets, etc, etc, wrong. Would you be defending me should I present a film with experts telling you that they do infact all exist when the truth of the matter is that they very likely do not? Is that what being open minded is to you?

I accept every possibility but this film has currently not provided one of any more importance than any fanciful thought in anyones mind across the entire globe. To claim it is mroe valid by utilising science is wrong.

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No Tieburn, you seem a master at missing points.

This film is not more valid than the next, just as my perception of the world is not more valid than yours. As validity is not a subjective thing, validity indicates a state of assurance or realism to reality with evidence and experience. Newton’s equations are valid equations to the fields in which they apply because they have been tested and proved to work. However, it is often a reality that new advancements in science cover the old, Just as the fact that the charm quark (or strange i forget which) has greater than a 360 degree face, which absolutely defies the conventional rules of geometry. This fact is widely accepted due to the high amount of study that’s gone into quarks. Now, we don’t actually know whether quarks exist or not, but the scientific community assumes that they must exist due to their calculations depending upon their existence. So you see, nothing in science ever remains the same, and most deff there are things for which we do assume an existence, but do so with no tangible proof.

My point (as was on the secret thread) That we need to keep an open mind to possibilities, there is (some) validity to the ideas represented in these films purely because of the billions of people who have experienced them, as well as the research into the ideas that HAS been done and continues to be done (even if in small amounts). No Tieburn there is no solid proof that you would submit to because you don’t believe in the subjective rule over objectivity. But I will continue to urge you not to so blindly throw away an idea and condemn it before you even understand the whole of the idea itself, I urge you to study more and learn more before a judgment is written. Keep a mind open to possibility, that does not go without hard scrutiny, but involves a measure of patients and logic aside from pure evidence. Such things need a measure of personal evidence, they need subjective experience to be understood because they ARE a subjective phenomena, not an objective one. I understand these things greatly, from a spiritual standpoint much more than a scientific one.

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No you appear to be missing the point. If the film had claimed it was no more valid than the next that would have been fine. It didnt. It brought out physicists, neurobiologists and preachers to tell you its version of things. It at no point said. 'Though this point of view is no more likely than any other.'*

' there are things for which we do assume an existence, but do so with no tangible proof.'
Not in science. There is perfectly tangible evidence for quarks.

' No Tieburn there is no solid proof that you would submit to because you don’t believe in the subjective rule over objectivity.'
You can't have subjective evidence, full stop. If it is subjective it is only true to yourself. Thats pretty much its definition. Good evidence has to attempt to be universal. I.e. Objective. There would be little point in PI if it only functioned for circles I observed...

' But I will continue to urge you not to so blindly throw away an idea and condemn it before you even understand the whole of the idea itself, I urge you to study more and learn more before a judgment is written.'
How can I learn about something that has nothing to teach? You have made the claim many times that it is entirely subjective. If it is, then it is no concern of mine. Just as my subjective views are no real concern to anyone else. I dont throw away or condemn any ideas, I never have. However, you must gauge the importance of the possibilities there are in order to not live in complete chaos. The only method we have to do this is through evidence and for this there simply is none.

'logic aside from pure evidence.'
If you were to consider an idea to be as valid as proven concepts without evidence you are sorely lacking in any logic.

' Such things need a measure of personal evidence, they need subjective experience to be understood because they ARE a subjective phenomena, not an objective one.'
If they are a subjective phenomenon they should _not_ be utilising science, which is the very core of objectivity. Science is not right for some people and wrong for others, it always endevours to be universally true. That is a concept entirely opposed to 'personal truth' and subjective ideas.

*Infact it should have said 'This point of view currently has no real evidence to support it and there are several other theories all of which are more likely to be true.'

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Tieburn, there is evidence, and you know there is. Your just dancing around the fire now.

The evidence that i and others have given you have cast aside as rubbish saying that the scientist probably dident know what he was doing. Listen, ANY scientist has more credibility than YOU who...are... not an acredited published scientist?

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Show me it then.

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I have, Several times, and so has Bluestar, so have a few others I have lost track of now. Each time, you find some ecxuse as to why it is not valid, and indeed, it is no less valid than anything ive seen you show me.

Again, your dancing around the fire.

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Refresh my memory...

and bare in mind that the film was supporting the theory that to quote wikipedia is '1) unverifiable and 2) introduces unnecessary elements into physics.'

Its amazing you can consider me to be 'dancing around the fire' when you refuse to provide me with the evidence you claim you already have done many times. Especially in the light of multiple skeptics on here providing a perfect test for the members of RSE and, without exception, they all left...

This isnt to mention the numerous times that members have insisted that proof isnt even necessary.

So please. Show me this evidence, because I must be missing something here. From what I can remember every attempt to get any solid proof has failed not only for myself but for anyone asking for it.

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chill out, guys.

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The arguments flying back and forth about who is right, who is wrong, who is smarter (or dumber), and who is more logical and scientific than the other is defeating. If you are simply trying to clarify ideas and share opinions that's one thing, but the two of you (and some others) seem to dialogue for the mere sake of wanting to be perceived as more "right," "Smart," or "logical." Perhaps try seeing the world from the others' perspective and then you might each actually learn something from the other.

Perhaps you might enjoy re-reading your philosophy for yet another perspective . . .Plato believed that ideas were superior to matter and in fact it is the idea that brings the matter into being (this is a horribly short and insufficient reflection of Plato's ideas but hopefully you'll get the point I am trying to make in connection with the movie). After Plato Aristotle came along and said, "Hey wait . . .matter does MATTER" and sought to articulate then the essence of matter in connection with the idea.

The movie does a fabulous job of opening one's mind to some Platonic thought and begs the question what are we in control of or not with our mind. There is scientific validation for the mind and body connection, there is scientific validation for the biology behind how our brains function (particularly relative to trauma) . . .Does "scientific validation" imply we know it all? Of course not . . .what is beyond our consciousness is the stuff that makes life interesting . . . obviously we can't know what's there until it's revealed, but the "unknown" is constantly revealed to us in ways we can better ourselves and our world . . .this is true emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, and scientifically.

Let's move beyond our egos and embrace the learning process.


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About *beep* time.

I rather dislike posting on boards such as this, for reasons you've (indirectly) stated.

Even if this movie does preach its own "religion" (name of said religion? Anyone?) and its own process of thought, what harm is it doing?

I am not a slave to any man or God.

I am me. This is my life. I am in charge.

I felt this movie backs a very self-empowering message. I don't see any negative aspect in believing in yourself (which is ultimately what the film is trying to do).

Everything is a matter of perspective (as mentioned in this film). If you have a negative perspective on this film, you lead a negative life.

I'm trying really hard to find a reason why anyone would have a problem with such a movie, but I cannot.

I can't find one thing wrong with the message of this film. And with that, it confuses me to no end as to how anyone can actually sit here on the internet and bitch about it.

What are you so afraid of, that you'll actually go out of your way to contradict something that carries no negative consequence with it?

Nobody is going to lose anything. And everybody is going to gain something.

As long as they want to.

For everything, is a matter of perspective...

Can anyone say, please, what is so bad about this film?

What "occult" is it preaching?

What do they gain by teaching you this form of self-belief, if such an occult even exists?

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[deleted]

I totally agree with you ... everything is made to be of use to someone ... because then it wouldn't exist ... so as long as there are some people who consider this documentary great it will exist ... and who didn't get the message from this documentary ... shouldn't bother to comment here ... It's a waste of time.

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If you didnt like the film then you didnt understand it.

If you didnt like or hated this film then it wasnt ment for you.

Remember that at one time the world was thought to be flat.

You all sound like those people.

This film was ment for all of us who understood it.


What? Something is only meant for me if I like it and I only like it because I understand it ... that is your general statement, yes?

I like my PC but I don't have one idea how it works or understand it; it's a box that does magic things! And even though I don't understand it I'm sure it's meant for me.

Create your own reality


Ok, and where do you draw the line between self created reality and delusion? Or even self created reality and insanity?

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Maybe this film is flawed. but it doen't go to the detriment of a lot of the theories that they are trying to express, please don't judge some theories based on peoples misrepresentation of them, it seems like an intersting film, though flawed, it can actually help people to learn a lot of the new theories going around and then go and explore for themselves. it seems like we are, in human knowledge, coming towards something, and that's why there are so many metaphysical beleifs being thrown around(probably due to the fact of resolving quantum physics and gravity/mind with reality) i think even in solid-sciences there are a lot of assumptions based on the way we interact with numbers, solid sciences are beliefe systems in them selves afterall, and it's only true virtue is it's method.

it also seems to me quantum mecahnics agrees with a lot of what spirituality has had an incling towards since it's conception, although the way it's adorned is mightily different(and that goes for the core beliefs of spirirtuality and not the conceited rut that a lot of religions have got themselves into), i think that's to do with the nonsolid state of language and how people express themselves.

afterall there is no point in arguing about it because no one knows anything for certian.

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'solid sciences are beliefe systems in them selves afterall,'
Science is built around destroying belief, to suggest it is a belief system is a little like saying fire is more or less the same as a match stick.

A belief system starts with an idea then reinforces it to create faith in the concept. You can see this in the creation and proliferation of all religions, cults, etc.

Science starts with an idea, then tries to crush it. After trying everything you can think of to completely destroy it, and failing, a good scientist will then give it to the world. Not to reinforce it, but for them to try stamp it out of existence as well. After this much the idea may be considered useful until another idea supercedes it or someone finally breaks it entirely.

Now yes, that is a difference in method but its the method that defines them. A belief system is just what someone does to maintain faith in whatever they have taken too. Science is just information that has been placed through its methodology. However, they remain naturally opposed.

'it also seems to me quantum mecahnics agrees with a lot of what spirituality has had an incling towards since it's conception'
In what way? As far as I am aware, currently there is no more in quantum physics that supports spirituality than there is in the laws of gravity.

'afterall there is no point in arguing about it because no one knows anything for certian.'
I for one am not arguing about the certainty of things. Quite the opposite, I am arguing against the very one sided impression this film gave. As I have already posted previously this film presented a single view of quantum physics, backed it with people that have a lot of letters before their name and made no mention that it was merely opinion and certainly didnt mention the multiple other quantum theories all of which have far more to substantiate them...

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I just wanted to say that you, Tieburn, have to be the most unrelenting s.o.b. I have ever seen. I'm not saying that I do or do not agree with you because I haven't even seen the film yet but I just wanted to give you props on hanging in there while others come and go. Also, has anyone ever changed your mind about anything?

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Oh i'll admit im stubborn. Though I have had my mind changed on numerous occaisions. There simply hasnt been anything here, in this case, to change it.

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A) I said before Tieburn what i say here is my subjectivity, so i have no evidence for you. So stop asking. What evidence i have given is from outside sources such as scientists like Dean Radin, but you don’t like him, so i guess to you he doesn’t count.

B) Your still dancing around the fire about providing evidence to me.

C)Science is a belief system, it may be just collection of information and facts retrieved through a reasonable logical system of analysis. BUT, that assumes that our logic is not flawed in the first place. The scientific method comes from human capability in processing information, testing it, and applying it. But, how do we know that our logical ability as human beings is not flawed by its very nature, and by that nature, we cannot prove whether it is flawed or not because we are, "red in the rainbow"

Now, I’m not saying that human logic is flawed or that our scientific method is wrong, I’m not, I agree with it. But my point being, science is still subjective by its nature of origin. Science itself depends on subjective BELIEF in the system itself for it to work.

The biggest point that most people miss in this movie is that it is a very short movie, a few hours to explain some vast concepts, and like you said they didn’t even get to the good ones. So saying that there wrong and they don’t know what there talking about is stupid, that’s just like me telling you "my computer has the capability of producing sound" (pretending that computers cant in our day and age) and than saying that that’s wrong because I didn’t explain it all the way and I didn’t give my own list of evidence.

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I LIKE PEANUTS

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YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!!

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a)If this was entirely subjective you wouldnt have any evidence at all so how you then do a complete U-turn and present Dean Radin once again is beyond me.

Though I believe ive been through this before, I didnt simply discount him because of any degree of like or dislike. I discounted him because,
i) http://skepdic.com/essays/radin.html , http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:zLp_A-QlEyAJ:www.skepticreport.com/psychics/radin2002.htm+dean+radin&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3 No doubt biassed in places, however some unavoidable and fairly serious problems are quite clearly there.
ii) He freely admits that there isnt particularly solid evidence and pertains to the typical yet horribly broken idea that you have to try it yourself.
iii) Please take a look at his actual research. A large portion of his most significant work is based in meta-analysis. Which while being the only real promising source of proof for any mental capabilities are simply not good enough to be used as firm evidence.
iv) He has pretty much no qualifications in quantum physics and indeed just about all of his work has nothing to do with quantum physics. Probably the largest flaw with trying to use him given that my main point revolves around... quantum physics.

Oh and finally, the only other point I made was about the opposition of science and belief systems. Dean Radin as far as I am aware has produced no documents in connection to this. I dont think he has so much as spoken at length about it on or offline...

If that is the sum total of your evidence then I dont think it unreasonable to consider it sorely lacking.

b)Weve been through this before in the other thread. You seemed to want me to prove that the words subjective and objective mean subjective and objective. I suggest you look in a reputable dictionary.

c)No it isnt. I don't believe in the scientific method. It simply is the best way until a better one supercedes it. An assumption is _not_ a belief. Of course our logic could be flawed that is besides the point. Even if the method is later proven entirely incorrect it still doesnt make it a belief to utilise it, because we have evidence backing its success.

The very last thing it depends on is subjective belief.
Subjective can not be utilised outside yourself because it is your own perspective and no one elses. (It is why we have double blind testing etc to cut out your personal point of view and get to the objective nature of things.)
Belief is unproven or it literally wouldn't be a belief. (It is why we run experiments so that we dont merely believe that gravity is a force we have the papers and the proof for it and as a result can make progress as Einstein did after Newton.)

With the exception of faith, belief and subjectivity are about as far away from science as you can possibly get.

'The biggest point that most people miss in this movie is that it is a very short movie, a few hours to explain some vast concepts, and like you said they didn’t even get to the good ones.'
So you are telling me they started with the bad ones first? They either purposefully represented the theory they wished you to take on board or they started with by far the least probable theory we currently have. Either way you look at it that is a silly thing to do.

'So saying that there wrong and they don’t know what there talking about is stupid'
I haven't said either of those things. It is still a valid idea regardless of how little evidence there is to support it. What is wrong is how it was presented. I.e. it was the only thoery presented, alternative were not only omitted they weren't even mentioned, it led people to believe that the 'observer' is a human which heavily confuses the whole issue, suggesting that quantum super position effects occur in the macro universe etc.

Indeed I suspect it would take someone who knows exactly what they are talking about to so effectively put out such a misleading presentation of quantum physics.

'that’s just like me telling you "my computer has the capability of producing sound" (pretending that computers cant in our day and age) and than saying that that’s wrong because I didn’t explain it all the way and I didn’t give my own list of evidence. '
Not really. Its more like you giving a presentation of how your computer could produce sound. While ignoring the research and theories for a sound card your presentation concentrates on using finely tuned, tied together, mice. You present it to an audience who is unlikely to have the first clue about the technology, and you present it in such a way as to suggest the mice are essentially the way its going to happen.

In case thats too much of an exageration. (Though I honestly dont think it is.) Even assuming you had a more reasonable theory than mice it still would not be right to present it above the most likely explanations that are available.

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Just because you and a few critics think his science is flawed doesent mean it is. I dont see Huge quantites of people saying that, in fact, hes been praised lately in the community for his recent book Entangled Minds.

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You answered to point i) and without any proof of this praise. (In the form of qualified quantum physicists not doctors of other subjects and amazon reviews.)

The fact that his work has very little in connection to what we are even talking about appears to have elluded you. Even if his science was perfectly sound, it still wouldnt change the fact that he hasnt produced any evidence to support this film.

Now if we were discussing if Psi effects existed or not this would be a different debate. We arnt. Beyond theorising about a vague link (in a subject he is entirely unqualified within) that runs along the lines of, psi effects are mysterious, quantum theory is mysterious, they must be linked! There isnt anything here.

You need not take my word for it. You can find lists of Dean Radins publications, you can find all of his qualifications, large chunks of his work you can read even without paying or going to the library. Look for yourself.

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Yeah I guess where your really missing the point is that a highly proven phenomena such as Quantum Entanglement, when looked at closely and applied with Bio Entanglement, can explain psi. Dont believe me? Go look for yourself, because apparently so, you deeply understand the work of every scientist, and thats why your one yourself...isent it?

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Hes made a comparison not a connection. As I pointed out in my last post.
He has _no_ experimental data backing it up. He isnt particularly qualified to make that experimental data. Bio-entanglement isnt even a proven phenomenon. Using this as evidence to back yourself up is grasping at straws to say the least.

I have never said I 'deeply understand the work of every scientist' I can plainly see what work a particular scientist has done though.

I have to say again, if this is all the evidence you have it is somewhat lacking.

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True but in order to understand bio-entanglement you do need quantum entanglement. Experiments have however been done successfully in the bio-entanglement field. For example, in the cold war submarines used a neurological bio entanglement effect in a Petri dish, to instantly replicate Morris code thousands of miles away on land. That may not be experiment, but it sure as hell is history.

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"Science itself depends on subjective BELIEF in the system itself for it to work."

Now, this is what we call sophistry (or a lot of ...).

Hang in there Tieburn. Everybody can believe whatever they like, but scientist will only believe when what they believe can be proven, and others, non scientists can be shown it works. Again and again and again.

At the same time I say that language (expressed thought) doesn't describe the world; it creates it (see Lakoff-Johnson: Metaphors we live by). Because everyday reality is largely subjective, the way we think influences the way we experience. That's why it's so hard for secular people to relate to people of faith. They believe, so they KNOW they are right!

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No need in arguing. Closed minds will always hate films like this. It's their loss, not ours..

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I think you, like many others in these threads, don't understand or are unwilling to understand what closed minded means. I am very much open to any theory, as I believe tieburn is, I simply need evidence to belive one theory is more plausible than any other given theory.

You are giving an unproven theory that is revolutionary in any sense of the word the benefit of the doubt, if not seeing it as gospel thruth. I am guessing this is because you are unhappy with reality as I believe, and you believed, it worked, and this new theory is making you happy because you matter in it. This is not what openminded means. This is what willfully and blissfully ignorant means.

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Well...for me anyway, I know such a theory is true because I have experienced it, and that is all.

I throw a pebble into a lake and it makes ripples, I experience the action and the result...To me the experiencing of such theories are the same, and I have experienced them in more dynamic than one, and more times than once.

This doesn’t apply to you, and it doesn’t apply to your universe because you have experienced it. Very plain, very simple. I don’t expect you to change your belief's just because I choose something different.

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Tieburn.. man you are one closed #,! aren´t you. I´v read all your post regarding WTB and it´s all just sad.. because it´s the mindsettings like yours that slows down the development of "our" consiusness. I´m not to start debate with you about WTB cause it will lead no where. Someone else already proven that.

"debate with an idiot for to long and you will become one"



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I do NOT like this film... I do NOT!!! However that being said it did present a gateway for me to find interest in quantum physics and perhaps alternate ways of viewing the physical world. I do not buy into the post-new age religeous dogma that is presented in the film however it has lead me to research "truth" on a different level, a level that text books science can not offer by law.

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"What a complete waste of EVERYTHING this movie is."

What gave you the idea that you know everything?

"Philosophy has no end in view, save truth. Faith looks for nothing but obedience and piety."

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People who deliver "finite" arguments such as yours should have their skin grated and massaged with Drano and lemon pepper.

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The fact that your opinion is that its a complete waste of everything, isn't that more up to the individual? I mean sure schindler's list is a complete waste of everything, most movies have SOME redeeming factor but schindler's list is just total dookie on film. however this film did at least get me interested in takeing up an independant study of quantum physics. I didnt like the flick, its WAY too new age preachy but it did offer me a gateway so i suggest it to people none the less.

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I would love to discuss it with you! Feel free to IM me at [email protected] i like talking with reasonable level headed people, if you just want to argue or make fun, take it elsewhere

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As mr.Dispenza says in film...how can you explain something like this to someone who is abused all his life with one laws and one point in life(materialism)?
I m not a big fan of that Ramtha stuff,but quantum physics is a first step to our understanding of life and reality.

This movie is for those who are willing to open their limited views on our beings and purpose in this universe(I am proud to be one of them) and not those who are gonna think till the rest of their life that they have to respect greybeard man in the sky because its either that or hell!?

Religion=control
Science=Knowledge & truth

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I'm glad there weren't more people like you in history or we would still believe the Earth is flat or the Sun revolves around the earth. Throughout history Paradigms have changed and what people once believed to be true turned out to be false.

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"Earth is flat or the Sun revolves around the earth".

You do realize that both of those beliefs dissolved because of science, logic and evidence.

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its like it was said in the first one," if you cont get what i said, you were not listening". Weeding out the weak for a stronger human race *thumbs up*

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