MovieChat Forums > Gwai wik (2006) Discussion > Western ideals do not always apply to Ea...

Western ideals do not always apply to Eastern concepts

posted 15 years ago by hyena-6
10 replies | jump to latest

Almost every thread on the board for this film focuses on one small device in the storyline of Gwai wik (Re-Cycle) . . . and I find it a bit concerning and ethnocentric.

China did not develop in the same pattern as the Western world. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Judaic concepts are not pivotal to many of the people in East Asia. Many of them do not even care. This is especially true in China, where Christianity has not heavily penetrated.

When I viewed this film, I felt one of the most powerful scenes was in the graveyard of the forgotten ancestors. I would assume that most of the Chinese movie viewers felt the same. If anything, that was the "preachiest" part of the film. Where is the honor of ancestors to these fallen souls? Instead of being allowed to be dead, they have been abandoned and fell into this realm of the forgotten.

The aborted daughter was a device in the story. It made sense to me. Why did Ting-Yin trash the original storyline? Well, when she did a press conference for her romance novel, everyone wanted to know if there was a part of her in the story and who the other characters had been. If she did that story and it became a best seller, everyone would have been investigating her personal life and questioning her on if she had an abortion, who the father was, and so on... they would have found that she was sleeping with a man who got her pregnant and married another woman (talk about dishonorable).

There are opinions of abortion in China, and the rest of East Asia, but have any of you watched the other Pang Brothers films? The original The Eye was all about honor and death... the soul could not rest until her honor was restored. (I did not see the remake, so I don't know if that theme persisted). This concept does not really fit into Christian/Judaic themes.

If you want to dismiss all of the people who disagree with the tenants of your religion, then fine. If you have a fanatical political agenda, then just admit it. But do not apply things to a film from another culture that do not fit. In fact, Oxide Pang came right out and said that he was making no moral judgement on abortion, it was just an event in the story that is included.

This alternate dimension was not "hell" or "heaven" or "purgatory." Did you skip the part where Sandy says that writing about spirits brings them to you? Is that from Islam or Christianity? (Not the last time I checked.)

The Pang Brothers come from a society that evolved for 5 thousand years with limited contact with the West. There is a strong current of Confucian values. There is an undercurrent of Taoist theology that began before Confucianism and some Buddhist tenants that came after Confucius. If you are "pro-choice" in the West and were offended by this story, ask yourself "why?" Is it because personally you find the concept of "killing an unborn child" is wrong? Is that an absolute? And, no, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with abortion. I'm not even applying my opinion on abortion to why I find it distasteful to make these assumptions about this film.

The real problem is that Westerners claim to be so "advanced." Yet, they still continue to apply their ethnocentric values on people of other cultures. What is the result? Well, China is growing in economic and military power, and what is their biggest external concern? Western hegemony. Do you think China is going to sit back and let people from other societies dictate what their social values should be? No matter how trivial the matter, given the history of tension between China and the West, I would think this should be handled delicately, with understanding. It becomes a critical issue when, important topics are raised. The West tried to talk to the PRC several years ago about issues of pollution. These attempts were fruitless, as the West were able to spew as much pollution as they wanted in order to grow. Not only that, the West dumped a lot of waste in the East... and now they want to tell the East they cannot do the same thing. Maybe if there were lines of communication that were less judgmental, there would still be a sky in Shanghai or Beijing.

Before you want to start with your fallacious tactics, let me say - ad hominem attacks will not work. I was born in the West, and educated in Western universities - I do not know of any ancestors that are of Han, Hindu, Mongol, Manchu or any other Eastern descent... so, I'm not speaking out of personal bias.

I just think it is pretty arrogant to assume everything is about YOU.

<end of rant>

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] neztra 15 years ago

I don't know if perhaps I missed a bunch of posts about this film, but, as a Westerner of Christian faith, I was still able to grasp the poignancy of this film as it relates to the culture and spiritual beliefs of Easterners. Some of us are able to avoid internalizing everything we see on TV and on the big screen.

In regards to the graveyard scene, this was, by far, one of the most touching scenes in the film. The anguish of the forgotten souls, no longer honored by their descendants truly tugged at my heart strings. From a Western, Christain perspective, we do not honor our dead as they do in other cultures. Obviously, this is based on the belief that the souls of those who have died have passed on to another plane of existance and no longer have ties to the living, but I almost wish we did have, in our culture, traditions and beliefs that create a sort of symbiotic relationship between the living and the dead. It might help us remember lessons from the past better and avoid making the same mistakes as our ancestors. Our present often times mirrors the atrocities of our past in ways that could be avoided.

On another note, abortion is a very sensitive subject for a lot of people, particularly in the West, thus the knee-jerk reactions. I do not think this film tries to make a statement along pro-choice lines. It seems, instead, that the story speaks of forgiveness and remembrance.

Lastly, you cannot expect people not to, in some way, apply the statements in this film to their own life, to use it to find parallels to their own philosophy, and by contrast, try to find ways to understand concepts that are alien to their thought process. It is only human nature, in much the same way, Esasterners look at our culture and make judgements and assumptions about Westerners. It is simply human nature. It would be great for people to try not to come at a concept from their cultural point of view, but at the end of the day, it simply isn't realistic.

You obviuously have much respect for the culture and religious beliefs of the East. That is great. So do I. But in order to be objective, as you say Westerners should be, we need to be just as objective about our own cultural and religious beliefs. Most people in this world do not have your ability to step outside themselves and address alien ideals with an objective and impartial eye any more than they have the ability to separate themselves from the ideals that ultimately drive them. Additionally, it seems you expect the average Westerner to understand the nuances of Eastern philosophy, which most do not. So perhaps instead of hopping on a soap box to lament the shortcomings of your Western brethren, you might, instead, consider trying to educate those around you in a more compassionate way, instead of treating people as if their ignorance is beneath you.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Either way, thanks for your thoughts and I hope you do not take offense to mine.

[–] hyena-6 15 years ago

Neztra, first of all, no offense taken at all.

I think there was a slight lack of understanding that I did not explain, that was in response to the barrage of comments on this film from Western perspectives (not just on IMDB.) There were many comments that just dismissed this film as "pro-life propaganda" or "religiously political motivated" and many said that it made the rest of the film unbearable. I did kind of get up on my soapbox, mostly because of the American trend of xenophobia that has been increasing in my perception. It seems to be less of an issue of "lack of information" and more an issue of "lack of concern for information."

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say "much respect for the culture and religious beliefs of the East." I do think I have a modicum of respect that has allowed me to look objectively. A great example is the "religion" in Eastern culture does not equally apply... not better or worse, just "different." This is a land that had a cultural evolution almost 5 thousand years removed from the Western cultural evolution. I have, in fact, spent far too many hours examining and studying the differences (and writing banal findings from my findings), so maybe I am expecting too much.

Still, I think it was a bit self-righteous for Westerners to claim these directors were following some "pro-choice" agenda in a film in East Asia. Contrary to what many people think, not every American, or European, domestic issue is a major concern in the rest of the world.

So yeah, I mostly agree with your comments - I cannot expect people to not apply the film to their own lives and concepts - but I do not think it is too much for them not to apply their personal politics to the personal politics of the director/producer in another culture. This film represents a great case in point. You ask yourself, "did the director have a pro-choice" or "pro-life" agenda? Well, two minutes on Google will show you the director is a team of brothers, neither of whom are of any Abrahamic faith.

http://www.sighedeffects.com/serious.jpg

[–] neztra 15 years ago

Thanks for your intelligent response. It seems you and I are on the same page in a lot of ways.

I totally agree with your statement about the Pang Brothers, but I have to pose this question to you, just for the sake of continuing this discourse: Does the fact that they are not of Abrahamic faith omit the possibility that they have a pro-choice agenda?

Bam said the lady.

[–] Kings_Gruel 12 years ago

Well said.

[–] chilone 11 years ago

As a side note, I believe the imorality of murder transcends all human dividing lines including culture and religion.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

[–] Strazdas (2328) 4 years ago

The Aztecs murdered people by the millions calling it sacrifice. It most definitelly not.

[–] KD637 (488) 4 years ago

I'd even go as far as saying it's the conditional morality of murder that transcends all human dividing lines - every culture justifies killing its enemies and animals.

[–] TimMC (9143) 4 years ago

You posted Judaic and Christianity , at least you got that right. They are COMPLETELY separate entities and should remain so.

Does Judaic-Tiger sound right? Cool, yes but correct. Bad example. I like that one.

[–] KD637 (488) 4 years ago

Yes, so completely separate that they share half of their holy scripture.