Lori wanted Erics attention, so she "fell" into the water with her arms outstreached like the dead girl in the water,hoping that Eric would finally save her and show her some "tender" emotion.She would then know that she could give herself to him, and when he killed her she would know that it was "true Love".
shareI think your kinda overanalyzing it. she wanted to die. she had wanted to since before she met Eric. her mother's BF was messing around with her. early in the film it shows that she had a scar on her wrist indicating she had tried to kill herself.
Part of her wanted Eric's love. but the other part wanted him to kill her. to release her from her inner pain. they were two lost souls.
~I love the rhythm it is my methoood!~
Spoilers I think that when Lori saw Eric do what he did it made her want to make him
pay. And by killing herself she got him to pay for his crimes. I think she knew
he would get blamed. She told the lieutenant she knew Eric was a killer.
And she told Eric she saw him kiss the girl. So the only reason to show her at the end was to show that she saw what he did and that she could make him go back to jail.
I follow your reasoning, and admit that it's a hard take to argue with. However, I saw and felt something different in that closing scene; I sensed Lori experiencing a disturbingly psychotic bonding with Eric at that moment, as if that was when she truly fell in love (or became obsessed) with him.
In any case, I thought this was a pretty great film, as dark and disturbing as the subject matter was, extremely well acted, and if it took some unnecessary padding of Russell Crowe's character's part (as they explain in the short "making-of" on the DVD) to get it on the big screen, it was well worth that transgression...
Right. Well, I have to-- I have to go now, Duane, because I, I'm due back on the planet Earth.
Why didn't she turn him right away to the cops then ? (EDIT: to the cops after the murder of the girl which she witnessed).She knew, and waited, the news of the missing/ dead girl was out and his mother found the clue, the red ribbon, and was in turn murdered as she was calling the cops.
Lori witnessed the murder, and in it she saw a "tenderness" that she yearned for. She drowned herself because she believed he would not touch her (sexually, harmfully or otherwise) and was just frustrated with everything in her life; drowning in the lake with him nearby was as close to experiencing what she saw when he let the dead girl float away down the river.
Yes, if she wanted to remove Eric from society she would not have warned him about the cops. The detective told nothing Lori didn't already know about Eric as she witnessed his murder. By this point, Lori had also been told by Eric that the kiss she saw was not what it seemed. In other words, it was entirely masturbatory. Lori sees evidence of this herself when she catches Eric masturbating at the hotel window. She knows Eric will not kill her. She commits suicide.
>> drowning in the lake with him nearby was as close to experiencing what she saw when he let the dead girl float away down the river.
Possibly, but I think it was more practical. Her knowledge she couldn't swim.
I think yours is the closest to an explanation as we'll actually get. No question that this loony girl was only slightly less psycho than her not-boyfriend/buddy/whatever he is/was. She definitely had a death-wish, so at least it was a happy ending in that respect.
At first she apparently hoped for an actual tender relationship with him, hoping, perhaps, to repeat the moment she had witnessed years before. That didn't happen, so after trying a number of different approaches she realized that it was hopeless, and there was only one way to recreate that moment. Since there was nothing left for her, she gave up and took the stupid way out. She was so self-absorbed in her little dream-scenario I doubt she even gave a second thought to whether or not it would leave him in a tight spot.
She didn't expect him to save her, obviously, and actively avoided being saved.
Personally, I thought this was a really dumb movie, and I'm sorry I wasted my time. The acting ... what there was of it ... wasn't much, but I blame the director and writer for not being able to put together something that would even hold my attention. I had to work too hard on this one, for a pretty paltry return.
I agree, and it reflects what I said in another thread.
shareI agree with cdjunkee. this is how I saw it as well, she clearly had a tormented life and wanted to die. she also had a sort of hero worship toward eric. to a normal person death is bad and so a killer is evil. I think Laurie saw death as release and from that frame of reference she saw eric as a hero, or at least he could be a "hero" to her by giving her release. She mentions how there was something so perfect about the "kiss" between eric and his victim that she witnessed. She tell eric "dissolve me" when he was clearly contemplating killing her at the motel. She even tells him she loves him as she believes that will further provoke his homicidal proclivities. finally at the end she is frustrated at her failed attempts to get eric to release her from life so tries to encourage a fit one last time and when it doesn't happen she takes matter, into her own hands, probably believing eric would not even try to save her.
"everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die"
Scars on the wrists can just as easily be a cry for help, though - they don't necessarily represent a wish for oblivion...
Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me
SPOILERS: As someone else replied, I too believe she saw it as a way to get Eric back out of society. She didn't value her own life highly and this was a way to provide meaning, and perhaps save countless others who might have been harmed by him. It was clear at the very end that the detective believed his story, that she drowned herself, but was going to let him be prosecuted for murder, again hoping to remove him from society.
TxMike
Make a choice, to take a chance, to make a difference.
Lori didn't turn Eric in because Eric had already served his time and she
couldn't turn him in for anything. Lori had sex in the truck/van with the guy who gave her a ride so sex didn't mean much to her. I think she followed Eric to see
what he would do, if he would kill again and to protect others as she saw men as
rapists and murderers. I think Eric had a type and it was hispanic girls and Lori wasn't his type. The maid at the motel was hispanic I think and that is why he was
masterbating while watching her. If Lori got him to kill her she could get him back in jail and if not then she killed so he would get blamed and save others. To her men were
just people who use women for sex. When she was exposing her breasrs to her boss at the store she seemed bored. Like sex ment nothing to her. If Lori fell into the lake to die wouldn't she expect Eric to save her but she was so far away from him he couldn't save her. Like she wanted him to get blamed for it.
Lori is not an avenging angel. "Nothing changes" is her mantra. Existential despair.
>>Lori didn't turn Eric in because Eric had already served his time and she
couldn't turn him in for anything
Eric was only convicted for the murder of his parents. All Lori needed to do was tell the detective she was a witness to Eric's murder of the girl and he would have been arrested immediately. That is not Lori's agenda. She has a deathwish. That is why when she witnesses Eric's murder she stays on the bridge to meet him, daring him to kill her as a potential witness. He doesn't. That just compells her fantasy. After being released by the detective, she tells Eric he owes her nothing but there is one thing that he can do for her. This is aiding and abetting her suicide. It was not the intimacy she craved as Eric was incapable of providing it. But this is the end she wanted.
Eric's subsequent conviction was the weakest aspect of the story. With his parents conviction thrown out, no prosecution could prove this was anything other than a boating accident. The defence would certainly argue Eric would be unlikely to murder Lori after they had both been logged by the police.
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>>eh? two seperate incidents. the defense present a defense, but 12 jurors aware of his prior activities would be more than likely to convict what was undoubtably a pariah in the media. The DA probably got him on a manslaughter charge easily.
I don't know much about American law but I believe defence can object during Jury selection to person's prejudiced by media coverage of previous conviction. I doubt the murder of Eric's parents would be admissable on the grounds of being prejudicial. His conviction was thrown out as unsafe on medical grounds.
Therefore you have a boating accident and no motive for foul play especially as both parties had been logged by police.
>>She certainly was suicidal but she was seeking his love and adoration
After death. That is their connection. The necrophiliac nature of their obsessions.
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>>what is percieved as a crime of passion or gross neglegence.
The prosecution would need to prove that beyond reasonable doubt and there is simply zero proof of either. "gross negligence" I believe would apply to an instructor with a duty of care in any case. Water accidents are common and I believe this aspect of the plot is weak because the author is less interested in the legal aspect of the story. The "Twinky" defence being somewhat perfunctory in the early scenes.
>>A connection perhaps, but not her ultimate wish. IMO she fell back onto that as cynicism overtook after his numerous shrug-offs
I believe it is her ultimate wish. That is the direction of the story but your interpretation is not unreasonable. It is like Conrad's "Heart Of Darkness" perhaps: "He had summed up--he had judged. `The horror!" In the same way, Lori has the need to pronounce and it is no coincidence that it is to an abuser. She then gives up her life.
The prosecution *Technically* has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. But it is up to the jury to decide if that burden had been met. The other poster is correct that the jury would likely be biased against him, in light of the intense media coverage of prior events. And the defense would not be able to keep all such jurors off the pool. (And they would then inform the others during deliberations.)
So technically, a conviction would seem unlikely, but in reality, it would in fact be pretty likely.
After death. That is their connection. The necrophiliac nature of their obsessions."
A connection perhaps, but not her ultimate wish. IMO she fell back onto that as cynicism overtook after his numerous shrug-offs
I think you are right on target. She had alot of self-esteem issues and insecurities which made some of her behaviors kind of self- destructive (i.e., cutting and 'bartering" her body for for favors or material things), but I don't think suicide was her goal. Her seeming wish for death started after she caught him lusting after the motel housekeeper. I think it was a despairing cynicism- if she couldn't have him in life- then maybe she could have him in death.
The next time it came up was at the lake- which was right after she found him making out with the Latin girl on the beach. It was at that point that she gave up hope. Since she had failed before to get him to kill her- she took matters into her own hands.
The thing is- I don't think he saw that coming. When she told him she couldn't swim, etc., it was way earlier- when he was detached and disinterestedly tolerating her. I think as she was talking to him when she first met him- he was just hearing "blah, blah, blah." You could see that unfocused look on his face. As the film progressed, I watched a cautious progression of increased attention and interaction with her. But tragically, I think he realized what was going on in the boat just a little bit too late.
I absolutely disagree with the theory that she did that to frame him and send him back to prison. If that was her wish- she could have just let him get busted on the beach with the other girl. She was, however misguided, in love with him. Perhaps a small part of her wished he would make a grand gesture to save her, but I think her major goal was to drown- I think the perception that she couldn't have him took her to a level of grief that was too unbearable for her.
I've watched the ending a few times- and I have to say the actor portraying Eric ia just superb. The last time I watched the boat scene, I focused on his reaction- what I clearly saw was at the first rock of the boat it didn't register what she was doing- but then you could see a growing sense of horror on his face as
it dawned on him what she was doing.
I've watched the ending a few times- and I have to say the actor portraying Eric ia just superb. The last time I watched the boat scene, I focused on his reaction- what I clearly saw was at the first rock of the boat it didn't register what she was doing- but then you could see a growing sense of horror on his face as
it dawned on him what she was doing.
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Yes. I agree with all of this, except for the *beep* you!" being directed at Eric - I think she was shouting *beep* you!" at the world generally.
Violet
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Stupid censorship - we're discussing something said, yet the socially conservative censorship here won't allow us to quote the scene we are talking about? Why not just censor the board to under-13s and leave us adults to talk freely?
Somewhat off-topic and a rant I know, but in my opinion conservatism is backwards, anti-intellectual primitivism, and should be beaten back with all the ferocity it deserves!
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I agree. Without some sort of evidence they'd never even get an indictment. Since the body would show no bruises or other sign of violence, just that she had drowned, and since it undoubtedly could be shown that she couldn't swim, any coroner would chalk it up to accidental drowning.
One also suspects a bit of investigation would show that this kid had more than a few screws loose, probably a history of emotional or mental problems, which would also corroborate what actually happened.
I think she would possibly have bruising around her throat from his abortive attempt to strangle her in the hotel room, plus the police would bring up that he did initially go for the trap, plus they would likely have the earlier evidence included, though a good defence lawyer would try to have it blocked. He was also prominently featured in the media, so I don't know if it would be possible to form a jury from people who were unaware of his past.
But the most important factor of all was that he gave up. That was what Ruseell Crowe's character was doing in the bus - he got Eric to believe that prison is the best place for him, and you saw Eric actually come around to accepting this during the conversation in the bus. After this, he would likely plead guilty - either that, or he wouldn't try particularly hard to defend himself, and his trial would be a pushover.
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This is all you need to know about the ending -
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043924/
"What sweaty pervert ?"
I saw this movie, and read the book (An American Tragedy) it was based on. And thought of it during this film. But there's a key difference. In the other movie/book, the guy wanted to kill the girl -- and she ended up drowning by accident. In this one, he didn't want to kill the girl -- and she drowns on purpose.
shareWell, as soon as you saw these two "doomed" in that little rickety boat, of course you thought of Clift and Winters. I just hope it was meant as a sort of homage, and not a blatant rip-off.
It doesn't matter how she ended up in the lake. The similarities are too many to ignore APITS.
"The day I don't find romance in a loaf of bread..."
It's hard to know what the author's intent really was here. Obviously, the girl had somewhat of a death wish -- hanging out with an obvious killer, of young girls yet. (One she had witnessed doing so.) On the other hand, she clearly wanted love and tenderness from him -- and knew he appeared capable of it, from how he treated the first dead girl. She thought of that as beautiful. And maybe part of what she saw as beautiful was the way he released the girl from what she herself saw as the pain of life.
So we can see her as simply manipulating him to kill her the entire time, with no feeling for him whatsoever, or as mainly just seeking his love, or as something in between -- with the the last probably most likely. It wasn't just vengeance, or she would've allowed things to play out with Maria on the beach.
All in all, incredibly sad, and somewhat moving. I'm not sure what the point of the story was, beyond depressing people -- because things do in fact change, even if doesn't always feel that way. He couldn't have given her the kind of love she wanted, even though he cared for her. (He just didn't feel that way for her.) Her frustration was understandable, but that obviously wasn't the best way to end it. (Therapy and a healthy relationship would've been much better.)
Maybe the point was that even sick pyschopaths can feel -- although this movie seems to encourage them not to, as he paid a heavy price for letting himself care about the girl.
Obviously, he should've just put her on a train back, or let her complete her call to her mom -- she didn't seem suicidal at that point. Maybe the point is to not spend too much time with girls like that unless you can really love them 100%, lest they get too attached.
It's strange how Erics gets his comeuppance either waySource:Movie Reviews - Tendernesshttp://moviereviews.noskram.com/2009/09/movie-reviews-for-tenderness
shareI think you're spot on, OP.
Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me
This means nothing because, by all means, the scriptwriter could have deliberately changed the intention of the ending - but, in the novel, Lori's death is a total accident. She falls into the water, Eric dives in after her, Eric actually fights very hard to save her, but she panics (partly because of her desperation to live) and he's forced to let her go.
You sing about the nights, and you laugh about the scars.
My feeling is that she saw him kill the other girl and saw a sort of tenderness in it. She became obsessed with that tenderness and wanted it for herself. She had probably spent her entire life with no real tenderness at all so, in her mind, this was the ultimate love. As the movie progresses, she begins to realize that he has a type (dark-haired, Latina) and she is not his type. She begs him at one point to kill her. But, as he begins to like her more and more, the idea of killing her is less and less exciting. The idea of even kissing her isn't exciting for him, not because he's not attracted to her, but because he doesn't want to defile their relationship in that way. But she, believing that the true love was the tenderness he showed toward his victims after killing them, doesn't realize that he is falling in love with her and, instead, believes that he never will because she's a "freak". So, she gives up, believing that she will never be loved. The irony is that he actually did fall in love with her and that is why he could not kill her in the way she had fantasized.
So disturbing but, at the same time, such a beautiful and haunting film! Amazing acting all around and a fantastic script! Certainly not for the faint of heart, but this a movie that is not easily forgotten.
>>>The irony is that he actually did fall in love with her and that is why he could not kill her in the way she had fantasized.
What would have caused him to fall in love with her? Is there any evidence for this in the movie?