MovieChat Forums > End of the Line (2008) Discussion > The key to this movie? The muffins!!

The key to this movie? The muffins!!

posted 16 years ago by DJ-Ren
25 replies | jump to latest

*SPOILERS*

What did they refer to at least 3 times in parity with the cult? THE MUFFINS! First, after an entire scene about mind altering drugs (the old psych patient won't take them by pill, so they hit him with a needle full of drugs), Karen goes to the cult's "donation set-up" and buys 2 muffins, which she soon eats...and then starts having all the hallucinations and stuff. Then, when the 2 guys are in the locker room, the white guy says he's starving because his wife has been feeding him nothing but muffins and rye bread for 3 days. Finally, there's another scene (which of course I can't recall because it would be really helpful right now, LOL) where two cult members are discussing how they love to eat the church's muffins (or something like that).

So, at the end of the movie, when Karen's face goes from terror to serene - I think that's cuz the drugs FINALLY wore off, and she could see that there were no demons, just some dead crazy people.

BTW, when the white guy in the locker room was talking about "rye bread", it reminded me of something I'd read. If rye bread gets moldy, the mold is actually ergotamine, one of the first identified halluciogenics and was used as a precursor to the original Sandoz LSD. (Of course now they use some chemical crap to make LSD...but I don't want to sound like some old hippie that claims every drug used to be better back in the '60's...except for weed because the B.C. hydroponic growers figured out how to splice the hemp plant's genes to drastically increase the amount of THC in the weed. For instance, for anybody who's seen "Reefer Madness", and recalls the professor dude saying that they can't stop people from getting marijuana because it grows wild everywhere [hence the term "weed"] - yeah, that stuff had about 1-2% THC content. The cross-bred hydroponic coming out of British Columbia tends to have AT LEAST 25% THC!) (Oh yeah, they also use ergotamine for people who suffer from migraines, which is why if you have a migraine you should immediatly score a tab, because LSD has LOTS of ergotamine, and is known to take away migraines. One of the actual "useful" things we learnt from MKULTRA.)

But I digress. My theory is that the muffins had drugs - really, REALLY good drugs from the looks of things ("good" meaning "strong" - drugs are NEVER good unless given to you by a doctor or your parents. Just say no!). The cult members (and Karen) took the drugs (by eating the muffins), and these particular drugs were a cult leader's/US goverment's wet dream, because they were really strong, lasted a really long time, and made you REALLY susceptible to coercion.

Anybody agree? Disagree? To me it explains the whole movie.

-ak

[–] iginlafan65 16 years ago

First, DJ, you might want to edit you thread title or your post at the top to let people know there is spoiler information contained within.

Now... WOW!!!! I mentioned the muffins when we watched the movie the second time but didn't think I was onto anything substantial. VERY VERY clever of Maurice..... the muffins are so subtle... by the time the subway maintenance guy mentions them you forgot about Karen having them and same when the cult member mentions them.... I think you may be onto something.... I'm not sure about your full theory though about them not being demons and such.. But yes I will agree I think the muffins are a key to something. I think there may be another thread you might have forgot about... The cult members popping the pills.... Puts one in mind of Jim Jones and the kool aid or the Heaven's Gate cult and such....

Side Note... You sure do know a lot about drugs and how they're made hehehe ;-)

[–] DJ-Ren 15 years ago

Yes, you are right, I have edited my message in case someone wishes to avoid spoilers.

I don't know if the muffins explain EVERYTHING, but they sure seem to give us the answer to a LOT of different things. Karen is fine, but quite soon after eating the muffins she's having EXTREMELY vivid auditory and visual hallucinations, which she can't seem to seperate from reality. Now, a lot of "how much the drugged muffins affected the story" relies a lot on what you believe the properties of the drugs in the muffins are. I mean, originally I thought that "mind control/becoming open to suggestion" was a big part of the muffin-drug's effect. However, recently I've come to believe that it causes hallucinations - very, very strong hallucinations that are indistinguishable from reality - but not mind control...or at least not mind control that "takes you over". Because Karen, the girl who has sex in the subway, and the white guy with the pregnant wife are all "under the influence", but seem to be able to fight the suggestions of the church & its leader, if they so choose. Those that don't simply CHOOSE not to, either because they're already crazy (ie - the guy who keeps trying to rape people), or because they've fallen under a Jim Jones/etc. state-of-mind as you said in the last post.

Just my humble opinion.

-ak

[–] ptesinge 15 years ago

Interesting - there was another scene where they open the cut with someone (can't remember who) eating one of the muffins. And I believe the would-be rapist guy makes some comment about it.

Nothing in films is accidental - I think you're on to something.

[–] DJ-Ren 15 years ago

ptesinge said:"Nothing in films is accidental - I think you're on to something."

My 1st Film Studies prof told me the same thing. Plus, it's not like it happens ONCE - as I said in the OP, the muffin eating pops up A LOT (at least 3 or 4 times)...can't be a coincidence.

-ak

[–] allan-john88 15 years ago

I can't remember but is the first scene, where Karen finds a drawing on the subway train and then the creepy vision/hallucination happens, set after the hospital scene?

[–] DJ-Ren 15 years ago

allan-john88 said: "I can't remember but is the first scene, where Karen finds a drawing on the subway train and then the creepy vision/hallucination happens, set after the hospital scene?"

Based on my recollections (I haven't seen the movie in a month or 2), Karen is in the hospital in the first scenes, including a scene where she eats a muffin or 2, THEN, in a later scene, she sees the drawings, then looks up and sees them as reality.

"OK, let's go make some LSD!" - Fringe, Episode 1

-ak

[–] Mr_Saxon 15 years ago

The movie begins with a train going through a tunnel and then we see Karen is on the train. She picks up the picture on the seat opposite and then sees the demons. We go to a strange scene where she is floating in what appears to be blood, and then to her in a shower crying. Next comes the hospital scenes.

As much as I like your theory, this causes it to fall apart. Unless, of course, she ate a muffin before the movie began but there's nothing to indicate this is the case.

"What this country needs right now... is a Doctor."

[–] DJ-Ren 15 years ago

OK, then what's your theory? This isn't a challenge, a dis, or even me defending my theory - I'm genuinely curious. What do you think cause the events in the movie to happen, and what do you think the end scene is all about?

"OK! Let's go make some LSD!" - Fringe

-ak

[–] barracuda_magoo 15 years ago

The theory (a great one, at that) still holds up because that opening train scene is just a dream - a nightmare from when she went through all that nasty subway business. Chronologically, the story begins with her as a nurse, she eats some muffins, and then all the craziness breaks out. Presumably months or years after it's all over, she still has those scary nightmares about it (you dont need hallucinogenic muffins to have those).

[–] b-moreprincess 15 years ago

Originally, I was going to say that the very beginning, when she is in the subway, red water, and then the shower, could have been chronologically correct because it was more than likely that she ate those muffins more than once since they started selling them at the hospital. At this time, while I read these posts, I was watching the movie for the 2nd time.

Now, what I noticed in the beginning, when shes in the shower, she has a scar on her left shoulder. It made me think because scars outright like that tend to have an important back story. I thought nothing more of it until the end. During the ending when Patrick tries to rape her (like every other girl in the movie), he cuts her left shoulder.

This leads me to believe that this must have been a cult drug phenomenon and not the actual apocolypse. I think the cult drug muffin phenomenon is a perfectly suitable and highly plausable scenario. =)

P.S.- I never would have put that much thought into the muffins if it wasn't for this post. =)

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means".

[–] user-769 15 years ago

While I agree, there is likely something to this... your conclusion is that all the ruckus going on outside the subway was the cult creating havok? How do you explain the TV broadcast? The Cult took over all TV and radio stations? That seems slightly unlikely to me.

From a logistal standpoint, I'm not sure how it could happen. I suppose you could argue the number of cultists could be exceptionally high, but create the situation seen in the movie and on the news broadcasts (and to take over EVERY TV station) there would have to be a ridiculous amount of cultists.

[–] ztpt 15 years ago

Yeah,I saw this again tonight with this theory in mind,and its a very good one.
But ,it does have some holes,what about the normal guy who make it all the way up top just to whitness the apocalypse going on ,then he is falling to his knees and yelling "god"!,then the creepy lady stabs him(those cultist sure have an weird ability to sneak up to people)..+ the forementioned point of the TV Broadcasts +radio and phones?
Maybe this flick is open to interpretation and theres no set way to take it,anyway I did love this movie,Original and was worth a rewatch,had me creeped out at 4-5 in the morning..

[–] drizzleinc 15 years ago

You still can't ignore the fact that she has the scar on her shoulder, indicating that she is safe and sound in her own home after the "apocalypse". Even if it was or was not the muffins, we know by this, that the apocalypse never really happened, but the cult was real.

I think it was a riot outside (or what ever you want to call it), and that people were freaking out, I mean come on, if there were hundreds of crazy people running around with knives stabbing people, there is a good chance a fire would break out from a homemade bomb or somebody crashing a car. The same thing going on underground, was probably happening outside to.

And for the tv's and radios.. Can it be that the whole thing was supposed to happen in the subway, or atleast part of his plan? but it spread outside to, and that cult leader dude had rigged the place? There were alot of cult freaks on that train, couldent be a coincidence... just a thought...

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] DJ-Ren 11 years ago

ztpt(in the next post... at least for now...) said "Maybe this flick is open to interpretation and theres no set way to take it,anyway I did love this movie,Original and was worth a rewatch,had me creeped out at 4-5 in the morning.."

[NOTE: I also watched this some...geez!, like 54 months months ago!... also, I watched it at like 3am... so if my recollections of the film are off, I apologize.]

user-769said, in the previous post, "While I agree, there is likely something to this... your conclusion is that all the ruckus going on outside the subway was the cult creating havok? How do you explain the TV broadcast? The Cult took over all TV and radio stations? That seems slightly unlikely to me.

From a logistal standpoint, I'm not sure how it could happen. I suppose you could argue the number of cultists could be exceptionally high, but create the situation seen in the movie and on the news broadcasts (and to take over EVERY TV station) there would have to be a ridiculous amount of cultists."

OK, here's where not remembering a film from five years ago kicks me in the arse. I don't remember the exact number of cultists; what I *DO* know is that it was a Canadian movie, so there was no budget, but, hopefully, the dir. was a decent one, and he made 10 people look like 100.

Again, my brain doesn't recall where the movie was supposed to be taking place. If it was in, say, Atlanta, then the cultists would need to be in the hundreds to take the local media. If it took place in, say, Edmonton, Alberta, there really wouldn't need that many people to control the local media. Especially at night. I've worked at two local radio stations, and 2 local TV channels, and so, IMHO, it would be VERY logical.

However, I'm still going with the muffins/drugs thing.

Peace.

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-AK

[–] rideitlikeyoustoleit 15 years ago

You know the muffins do make sense. I never thought about the beginning of the movie like that which also makes sense. I think I must be losing it, because I really liked this movie. All in all a pretty good horror movie.

[–] pepperprentiss 12 years ago

I think is was food. If you remember one the first scenes is of woman picking up a brown envelope on the train.The envelope has her name on it and some other words including the word ERGOT.I noticed this because of the history of ergot making people seem crazy.

[–] SVanDuine 12 years ago

The letter said:

TO KAREN

CLAVICEP PURPUREA
ERGOT

VIVIANE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claviceps_purpurea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot#Claviceps_purpurea

The many references to rye specifically and the muffins along with this reference, and the timing of most of the hallucinations leans quite a bit to the muffins being the cause for the "demon" sightings.

[–] vallenjh 11 years ago

The first few scenes where she is on the trains > envelope > shower > living room is AFTER the movie.

When we see her in the hospital, that is the real start.
The muffin theory is FANTASTIC! Totally did not click until I read this!
It seems the muffins were drugged, and the posters through out used by that leader guy appear to be a recruitment that was used throughout the country or at least the city. It appears the drug causes hallucinations of seeing/hearing monsters which if happening over a period of time they would assume they're seeing the end of days, form a cult and kill to "save" people.

The drug was eventually wearing off which is when we see her having her nightmare and in the shower (she sees a black movement and freaks out slightly but calms down) and is fine by the time she is in her living room. :D

[–] Shaza123 10 years ago

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but just wanted to say this is a marvelous theory.

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

[–] DJ-Ren 10 years ago

Never, ever, EVER apologize about giving me my props!!

Seriously, though, this movie - like a Guy Maddin or David Lynch movie - is open to interpretation (to put it mildly), and, as Lynch was quoted saying, "Everybody who sees my movies experience and interpret the movie for themselves... and all of their theories are correct." I would only add that anyone who puts forward a theory about a movie be able to a) Make sure your theory holds up against the entire movie, because b) in "these types of films"
[low budget, surreal, non-linear, etc.) everything that is in the movie is supposed to be there.

Anybody want a lesson on the auteur theory? During the "French New-Wave", films were the vision of ONE person. That is, one person wrote, directed, edited, and often starred in a single film. Also - especially if you look at things in hindsight - there was no "studio interference" of any type. Now, we look at artists who made films this way (in the late '60s and '70s) as "film mavericks".
John Cassavetes, Melvin Van Peebles, John Waters, David Lynch, William Friedkin, and I know I'm missing a couple thousand names.

There are some filmmakers who "buck the system" and still do it, auteur style. Maurice Devereaux, for instance. Nicolas Winding Refn, who conviently forgets that, before he came to the USA, was saying how people were throwing money at him to do a "Pusher" sequel, but that he'd never do it... unless he goes to Hollywood, invests all of his film company's money in "Fear X", and has to come back home, and make the "Pusher" sequels. But, history revisonist or not, Refn is a true auteur. He writes/directs/edits his own movies, funds them with his personal film company's cash, and makes what he wants to. Just don't try and find his second film, "Bleeder". The only reason that I have it is because these 3 amazing films - "Pusher";"Lost Highway"; and "La Haine" - were released in R2. Some people would say, "You got burnt!"; I look at it as a)I accidentially aquired one of the rarest films around ("Pusher" was in a "double set" w/ "Bleeder"); b)Apparently Americans are trying to get the Canadian release of "Lost Highway" because it's not *AS* terrible as the US release. My R2 copy of "LH" is BEAUTIFUL. It has 2 discs, is in the proper ratio, gorgeous sound... I don't think a Blu-Ray release would be better! (Side note: Even though Lynch was one of the original "1970's Film Mavericks", and as sad as it is that he seems to have traded Transcendental Meditation for filmmaking, everything the man touches <except Dune and Hotel Room> is brilliant.

OK, my butt hurts now. As for End Of The Line, everything can be explained away by hallucinations. The people that referred to Ergot are right - Ergot is a naturally occurring substance in nature, and yes, it is now believed that the Salem Witch Hunts were caused by (among other things, such as group hysteria) ingestion of Ergot. (As an aside, it's been found that LSD cures migraines very quickly. Since LSD has been classified by "the man" as having NO MEDICAL VALUE, it is in the top tier of whatever country you live in. Like, the USA has classified LSD as a "Schedule 1 Narcotic" along with ganja. Drugs in Schedule 2&3 include Ketamine, Cocaine, every narcotic BUT heroin, and many more, because they all have "Proven Medicinal Value".)

As for the film, the muffins explain it all! See, the symptoms don't really kick in until she gets on the Metro. Then things get weird, but they go off the charts when she supposedly winds up in a sub-sub level of Toronto. This allows for many things - her seeing "cult members", the radio and television broadcasts, everything. I haven't seen the film in years, but if anyone has a specific scene (or whatever) that they think can't be explained by my theory, please respond to this message and let me know. And *PUHLEEZE* include a "time code" (let's say you have a question about an incident near the beginning of the movie, your player might say 0:07:33, and if you know the scene in question ends at 0:08:09, INCLUDE THOSE NUMBERS!)

"I have never read a comic book in my LIFE!" - Tim Burton
"Well, that phuccing explains Batman I guess..." Kevin Smith

-AK

[–] Shaza123 10 years ago

Ever since I first read about your theory, I pretty much jumped on it. The muffins never even dawned on me. My first interpretation was that it was all real. Though that didn't sit right with me. The fanatics were depicted as crazy, it seemed strange that they would be deemed as "the good guys" in the conclusion.
But after reading your op, it pretty much made me admire this film more. I already figured it to be a scary and effective movie, but I was surprised at how much it made me think about it long after I watched it. Quite scary on multiple levels.

I have nothing of value to add, but again, just wanted to congratulate you on this thread. This was a fascinating read.
Cool Chopper avatar too.

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

[–] DJ-Ren 10 years ago

Great... you got me blushing and stuff.

(And y'all will probably get me doing MORE 9-hour movie blogs that nobody's gonna see.. oh well.)

Barely connected to this topic - is Schwarzenegger going to ruin EVERYTHING I hold dear? T3 was crap, don't get me started on T4 ("Oh yeah, I'm John Connor, but I forgot that you can't just shoot off a Terminator's legs, and then turn around and walk away. But I am super-tough - hell I can get in a fight with a T-1000 and walk away from it, so I'm not worried!") See, you've done it now - I could talk about Terminator for weeks.

I mean, how are they going to squish Arnie into T5? He's the "Ancient Terminator Overlord" and he'll sit around for the whole movie, petting a white cat, like some stupid Bond Villain? What else could he do? While filming T2, they were setting up a shot, and 2 grips together couldn't lift the chaingun. Arnie goes over and picks it up with one hand. Now they'd have to have a stand in for Arnie's character to pick up a water gun.

Plus, this was supposed to be my man David Ayer's (writer/director of amazing films; see my sign-off quote) big "bust into Hollywood". But not only did this movie not play AT ALL in Canadian theatres, the stupid film company decided to "save the movie" from financial ruin by turning it from a 3hr "mystery" to a 2hr "shoot-em-up" flick (and quite a gory one, from what I've heard...).

So, your avatar - it's from "Thriller" aka "They Call Her One-Eye" aka "Thriller: A Cruel Picture", yah?

Talk to you later!

"Oh Flaco, you done phucced up now, ese!" Christian Bale as a cholo in East L.A.;Harsh Times

[–] Shaza123 10 years ago

I wasn't a fan of the third Terminator either, don't believe I ever saw the fourth one. Nothing would ever be able to beat the first two, especially that second one. It's a classic for a reason.
I loved Arnie growing up, probably saw all his action films, but I think at this point, it's time to pass the torch. No doubt he's still very tough, but 20 years later, certain stunts aren't as believable anymore. In the same cringeworhty way it was for Harrison Ford to act in the fourth belated Indiana Jones movie, too much time has passed.

Yeah, it's from Thriller: A Cruel Picture. Nice one, recognising it.

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

[–] soSagtDieHex 10 years ago

just wanted to say
kudos to the OP since this muffin interpretation is brilliant

at first I had thought the muffin thing being more of a... MacGuffin if you see what I mean or else a red herring

but after all I guess your idea is neater
so congratulations.