MovieChat Forums > Thin (2006) Discussion > You know what's sad about this?

You know what's sad about this?


Women do this crap to EACH OTHER! We're not trying to reach some impossible standard to impress men, we're trying to insulate ourselves from the ruthless bitchiness of OTHER women.

It's so sad that in a society where women are still minorities (we still make 70 cents on the dollar to what men make) we tear each other down rather than support and love one another and encourage each other to reach for our highest potential.

How many boards do you see where women start a thread about an actress being fat? Why do we do it to each other? MEN AREN'T WORTH US FIGHTING! The men that are worth giving a crap about will see beyond the superficial.

Please women, please, please, please, let's STOP this! It hasn't even been 100 years since we were secured the right to vote (and that's just the white women), there is NO equal rights amendment, and some men still think of us as PROPERTY!

I urge all the women out there to stand together to have us be seen for our brains rather than our bodies.

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Well said!

The thing that bothers me the most is how attractive women, instead of being thankful for the fact that they got to swim in the deep end of the gene pool, physically speaking anyway, they tear down women like myself who were not as lucky.

Prime example, there is a local (Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas based) radio talk show I listen to on occassion. There is a female co-host and a call screener/news reader for the show that also pops in a joins in discussions. Both of these women have donated breast implants (gifts from a plastic surgeon they plug on the show), expensive personal trainers and dieticians, etc. They are both beautiful women, but they've had and still have lots of help to get there, financially and otherwise.

One day, they were discussing a study out of England that said that women were less likely to go out with their fatter, less attractive friends than with their thinner, more attractive friends. Instead of discussing how wrong that was, and how if someone is your friend you should not give a damn what other people think when you're out with them, they spent an countless minutes discussing how it's completely logical that you wouldn't want to go out with your "fat, nasty girlfriends".

Women don't support each other at all...even big women, like myself, don't stand by one another.

Men have just as much a stake in the rise of anorexia and bulimia as women, though...Men are being told by the media (internet, print, television, even radio talk shows like Howard Stern and Tom Leykis) that to desire a woman with even one ounce of body fat is "lowering their standards". So, men are seeking women solely on a flawed idea of fitness based on thinness (which is completely backward thinking, medically speaking. Fitness is based on your level of physical activity, not on your body size. An active fat person is ALWAYS going to be fitter than a sedentary thin person...ALWAYS.) instead of going after a woman for her personality, loyalty, what she has to bring to a relationship, etc.

So, women that want a man in their lives strive to meet these ever-changing, ever more stringent rules of what is considered beautiful, and men are demanding thinner and thinner.

What women need to do is what I like to call a "Man-cott" (as opposed to a boycott. ^^). Don't swear men off forever, or anything, but write up a list of characteristics a man must live up to to deserve a relationship with you. Not necessarily all physical things, but possibly things such as (here are some of mine as examples), "Must have a sense of humor" or "Must think women smaller than Kate Winslet are unattractive", etc. Any man that doesn't meet those requirements gets kicked to the curb. Raise your standards, and don't ever kill yourself health-wise just to please a man.

Women, love one another, take care of one another, and love and respect yourselves as well. If a man can't love you thin or fat, it's not you he loves in the first place.

And, I'm through. ^^

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[deleted]

If a guy is better looking than the girl he is with he is using her as an easy pump. Or the girl has money or some hot friends the guy wants to move in on.

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this is true: so many women simply cannot even have another woman enter a room without literally staring them up and down: you can see the panic: is she fatter / skinner than I am?
i have taken to deliberately making eye contact with these types, and making sure they see me give them the up and down stare, taking in every angle and perceivable 'flaw'. everyone has insecurities, so why not try to hide your disdain for another person's fat or bones or frizzy hair and just get over it. it is really rude behavior and it is just as pathetic as

fathewsJ2 is - the fact you. fathewsJ2 obvs have nothing better to do underscores how very much a loser you are - you are completely stupid.

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[deleted]

so I "have nothing better to do" than comment on a subject of interest to me. ok.

and you are nothing more than an ignorant troll: hilarious! and you actually type a defense of how much of a loser you are. wow. your misogyny is so thorough, it is obvious you just want to suck your daddy's dick. enjoy.

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Hmmmmm. Me- 6 figure income job and the ability to suppport my family You- ED skanks have lives that are in shambles and are a complete disaster.

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loser, rinse, repeat.

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Your retorts are as pathetic as you are.

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Matthews, you are a living, breathing cliche'. Your "witty" cutdowns and bragging about a "6 figure income" that may or may not exist, is totally unimpressive. I'd sooner trade lives with a crack addict than with you. And I'm sure you feel the same way about us, as you have made abundantly clear. It just kills me that people get so hurt by what you say. You're a walking punchline and seem to be taking your cues from every "bad guy" in every movie, television show, etc. And seriously, who knows the bs that's coming out of your mouth? Maybe you do have this great life that you brag about, and good for you. Personally, I don't buy it. I'd guess you're a middle/high schooler trying to push the envelope of how huge of an as*hole he can be. "Hey guys, watch me piss of a bunch of anorexics....hehe. " But of course, I know your reply to this will be. "No, I have a great life...I'm a tool, I'm a tool." Let's not kid ourselves, man. You're exactly the same as us. Predictable and pathetic.

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[deleted]

clever, so clever.

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P.S. The only one whose going to be commiting suicide because of you is your employer, for hiring such a jackass. Or your wife, for marrying one. So get over yourself.

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[deleted]

MathewsJ2, you're entitled to your opinion, but I am puzzled as to why you would get so involved unless you had some issues of your own that made their comments strike such a nerve. And what drove you to the imdb page about this movie in the first place? Do you spend the day surfing the net to see who you can take down to make you feel better about yourself? I am generally interested in what makes someone like you tick. Enlighten me. I like to learn about people. I do suppose you won't be able to give me straight answers and will likely have a mouthful of rudeness for me as well, but que sera sera.

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Not my theory, but it's been said
that the fashion industry is run by gay men and rather
than perpetuating images of natural women, they prefer women
who resemble adolescent boys.
Sadly, some women are greatly affected by this.
I just feel bad for all the men and women who suffer
from dysmorphic disorders and can't find peace with themselves.

myspace.com/lexfulgore2

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thank you for bringing that to light!!
that actually makes a lot of sense! :)

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Hey I know that was a long time ago - there has been some research into the oedipus complex and gay men - they arent making women look like little boys because thats what they are attracted to, they are trying to make them like little boys so they can act like mothers - its to belitte and control people - those two words - belittle and control.

Its because that is their greatest fear personally.

Not all gay men are like this - obviously.

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Ya know, whatever the topic, whatever the agreement or disagreement, you should never bring up financial superiority. It's totally in bad taste. It doesn't make you a better person. Because of your salary you're assuming you are a better person than others on this board, and that's a ridiculous way to live.

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[deleted]

"Me- 6 figure income job"

Yes, but you forgot to mention the decimal point before the fifth and sixth figure.




Don will fix it. He knows what that nut means to Utz and what Utz means to us.

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So, men are seeking women solely on a flawed idea of fitness based on thinness
Not really. The evolution of sexual reproduction involves seeking out a mate with the healthiest genes, and, when it comes to women, with the greatest likelihood for repeated conception, successful birth, and child rearing. Structurally, this means highly symmetrical features, a body that looks like it is only begun to ovulate a couple of years ago, a pronounced hip to waist ratio, and large breasts. Social mores and medical discoveries can modify these up or down slightly, but millions of years of evolution are tough to overcome at the subconscious level.
What women need to do is what I like to call a "Man-cott" (as opposed to a boycott. ^^). Don't swear men off forever, or anything, but write up a list of characteristics a man must live up to to deserve a relationship with you.
You lose me here. Are you not advocating the adoption by women of stringent standards that filter out all men who have also adapted stringent standards that filter out women? By your own logic, all men should 'woman-cott' all man-cotting women...

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Not really. The evolution of sexual reproduction involves seeking out a mate with the healthiest genes, and, when it comes to women, with the greatest likelihood for repeated conception, successful birth, and child rearing. Structurally, this means highly symmetrical features, a body that looks like it is only begun to ovulate a couple of years ago, a pronounced hip to waist ratio, and large breasts. Social mores and medical discoveries can modify these up or down slightly, but millions of years of evolution are tough to overcome at the subconscious level.


While I agree with you that physical attraction to the opposite sex is based alot on healthy characteristics, what exactly do you mean when you say "a body that looks like it is only begun to ovulate a couple of years ago"? Do you mean, a woman who still has a relatively low body fat level? I only ask that because, aside from surgical augmentation, it is virtually impossible for a lean woman to have large breasts, since breasts in themselves are composed of body fat.

Last year, my bust size was only a 32B, and its because I was 120 pounds with only 17% body fat (which one of my personal health professionals measured with calipers). I'm an avid exerciser and dieter, and have been since I was 15. Look around. Most athletic women have very small breasts, since exercising builds muscle and lowers your subtucaneous body fat, including that in your breasts.

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[deleted]

No -

evolution is a theory.

for many centuries and in other cultures - esp Ethopia where humanity originated and in cave paintins from the mesolothic fat women have always been revered and are actually just as fertile - esp in terms in balance with nature - which humanity no longer is.

Girls are now starting their periods too early - thus your point about recently starting ovulating is incorrect - if you look into forced marriages in India there are documentarys of girls of age 14 dying because of child birth - both child and mother.

Look up eagatarian society. I cant spell it properly but google will find it.
You have been incorrectly conditioned against nature to believe one man and one woman engage in sex to pro create and this is what attraction is based on.

Totally in correct anthrapolically speaking. Women would actually have been and men selected at different times throughout history for different attributes most appealing and useful at the time - once this would have been hunting and strength, the abilty to fight, walk long distance, surive freezing conditions etc

for example women would have needed to be stronger, faster, even fatter to survive harsh winters in the ice age and in cold climates. Man kind needed "community" not just sex and procreation - to survive. It has been our ability to work together and to communicate that has seen us advance - not primitive drives based solely on sexual attraction - this idea is the saddest detriminant to our society for the past 50 years.

Sexual attraction is a baseline crappy draw that has been used to make the west and capitalism a consumer society and a few people very rich.

This is idea on "whats physically beautiful/attractive to men" not ONLY changes throughout history (currently its big bootys) but is culturally different so to present it as an "objective fact" is totally absurd.

You are brain washed to like what you like. Whatever you like is making someone money.

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I agree with most of what you say here, but I just don't get the "Must think women smaller than Kate Winslet are unattractive" thing. Why is it fair to judge on that criteria? From what you're saying in the rest of your post, it seems like size shouldn't really matter or be a factor in deciding the worthiness of a potential partner. This doesn't jive at all. Why should a woman be discounted just because she is thin? That's just as bad as excluding her just because she isn't.

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The second I saw this insanely long post I thought, "Yep, this is gonna be a fat girl." And what do you know? It's a fat girl.

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Good post, Shorty. You even managed to lure a cowardly woman-hating troll out. Keep up the good work and everyone remember you're beautiful.

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everyone remember you're beautiful.
Saying that everyone is beautiful is identical to saying that no one is (or that everyone is ugly, for that matter). Qualifiers acquire their meaning by virtue of distinction with alternative states - there is no hot or cold if everything is the same temperature, for instance.

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by - rei_t_ex on Sun Jun 10 2007 10:49:53

everyone remember you're beautiful.


Saying that everyone is beautiful is identical to saying that no one is (or that everyone is ugly, for that matter). Qualifiers acquire their meaning by virtue of distinction with alternative states - there is no hot or cold if everything is the same temperature, for instance.




Yeah genius, great analogy. Beauty is completely arbitrary and subjective. One could even argue that it is a construct of the viewer's mind and not intrinsic in the subject. Even "hot" and "cold" are relative and subjective too, although at least there is an actual scientific scale to measure temperature upon in numbers. Unless you are at absolute zero, which is unattainable with known technology, there will always be something hotter and colder than anything. So who is to say what is "hot" or "cold", really. Ice is hotter than liquid nitrogen, a campfire is colder than molten steel, etc.

My point is that if you believe you are beautiful, your life will be happier and people will be drawn to you. What someone else thinks of your appearance shouldn't matter as long as you are pleased with it. If you really believe that some people don't deserve to feel like they are beautiful, and that all beauty is a concrete, quantifiable value, concerning physical appearance only, and with a cutoff point somewhere, I feel sorry for you and your friends.

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Yeah genius, great analogy. Beauty is completely arbitrary and subjective. One could even argue that it is a construct of the viewer's mind and not intrinsic in the subject. Even "hot" and "cold" are relative and subjective too, although at least there is an actual scientific scale to measure temperature upon in numbers. Unless you are at absolute zero, which is unattainable with known technology, there will always be something hotter and colder than anything. So who is to say what is "hot" or "cold", really. Ice is hotter than liquid nitrogen, a campfire is colder than molten steel, etc.

My point is that if you believe you are beautiful, your life will be happier and people will be drawn to you. What someone else thinks of your appearance shouldn't matter as long as you are pleased with it. If you really believe that some people don't deserve to feel like they are beautiful, and that all beauty is a concrete, quantifiable value, concerning physical appearance only, and with a cutoff point somewhere, I feel sorry for you and your friends.


I feel sorry for you that you feel you need to get hostile with one of the posters just because he/she says something that you don't like.

While beauty or physical attractiveness is a little more subjective than characteristics such as, body fat percentage or intelligence, it has been reported that there are actual scientific formulas for measuring physical attractiveness. Now, whether there is an actual cutoff point of whats attractive or unattractive, I don't know. However, physical attractiveness is usually based on body and facial proportions. The farther your facial/body characteristics deviate from symetrical, the less attractive you are theoretically. However, from my real-life observations, a man is usually going to be initially attracted to the lean ill-proportioned woman, over the well-proportioned fat woman.

And all the preaching about "beauty is subjective" can't chnage the fact that what IS considered attractive is based on what the majority of the population finds attractive. We all have different preferences of body types, but most men are going to be most attracted to women devoid of excess body fat. That does not mean being skin-and-bones or being extremely muscular, but possessing a body type that doesn't have any grabbable fat (aside from breasts, thighs, and butt), and certainly no jiggle nor cellulite. And, of course, even true body fattness cannot be determined until you use one of the tried-and-true mathmatical formulas to measure one's body fat %.

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Well said, OP. You hit the nail right on the head.
I recently read that story about how women make 80 cents on the dollar of what men make right out of college and it drops to 69 cents on the dollar later on, and that pissed me right the Hell off because I'm about to graduate with my B.S. and some dude is going to make more money than me just because he's a guy. Grrrr!!
Thanks for bringing that up as well as the weight stuff. I can't believe how tough it is for women to be overweight, underweight, anything other than whatever is seen as the "ideal," which is such a load. Because you're right, women do this to each other. I think it's hard for men to be fat too, but nowhere near like it is for women. You'll see fat men with thin women a lot more than fat women with thin men.
Stand together women, we don't need to take down the men, we just need to take down the inequality.

I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me.

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I recently read that story about how women make 80 cents on the dollar of what men make right out of college and it drops to 69 cents on the dollar later on, and that pissed me right the Hell off because I'm about to graduate with my B.S. and some dude is going to make more money than me just because he's a guy.
I hope that your BS has nothing to do with mathematics, because you just raped the interpretation of the quoted statistic. It, most assuredly, does not say that the company you are interviewing with will pay you 80% of the salary it would pay a guy applying to the same position (if so, companies would only hire women). It also does not say that you have 80% of the guy's chances of getting that job, ceteris paribus.
I think it's hard for men to be fat too, but nowhere near like it is for women. You'll see fat men with thin women a lot more than fat women with thin men.
On the flipside, one will see far more poor women with rich men than poor men with rich women. To quote Oscar Wilde:

- Do you think she'd look at you if you were poor?
- Do you think I'd look at her if she were ugly? Fair's fair, exchange rates and so forth.

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Poor MatthewsJ2 ... in his previous life as MatthewsJ1, he was so known for his ignorant and ridiculous sh*t that he has had to reinvent himself as MatthewsJ2, the evil (and even more deluded) twin brother.

Okay, everybody, all together now: 1 ... 2 ... 3! Hit "Ignore".

Thank you ...

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Actually, I referred to myself as Shorty because I'm short. My brothers have always called me shorty because they're 6'2", 6'6", and 6'5" and I'm 5'3". If you're going to try to read something into the 31, it's a random IMDb generated number.

As for the rest of your commentary, I don't care.


People die in fairy tales all the time.

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[deleted]

there is NO equal rights amendment, and some men still think of us as PROPERTY!
The ERA is misconstrued due to its exclusive focus on gender. Naturally, both the federal and the state governments should not be allowed to pass laws restricting rights on account of gender, just as the amendment says. However, neither should the federal or state governments be allowed to pass such laws on account of hair length, eye colour, or number of teeth. The Constitution is a statement of general principles. It can well be argued that its provision for equal treatment of all citizens is not as explicit as it ought to be (largely due to the discriminatory social mores in place at the time of its drafting), and that it should be amended accordingly. However, to restrict the amendment to gender differences only, is nonsense.

As to what some of us men think of you women, it is each individual's right to think whatever he or she wants, irrespective of how tragic or daft those thoughts may be. Instituting a thought police is not a good idea. Rather, what should be regulated is not what people think, but how they can act on those thoughts.
I urge all the women out there to stand together to have us be seen for our brains rather than our bodies.
Why? There are many metrics by which a person can be evaluated. Should it not be each individual's right to select whichever of the metrics he or she considers most appropriate and to decide how much weight each selected metric has in the final 'score'? Both intelligence and aesthetics seem to me to be perfectly valid metrics. If you find the former to be of far greater importance than the latter, then more power to you. But what right do you have to try to impose these standards upon those who disagree with them? If some poor sod out there happens to find bimbos (or hunky Neanderthals, for that matter) irresistible, then that is their choice. For instance, there are far fewer women who would queue up to date (male) Nobel laureates, than women who would queue up to date NFL stars. Personally, I see nothing wrong with this - it is each individual's decision. And for most people, the decision is a complex one involving a great number of factors - I suppose it is not impossible that when faced with a choice between a gorgeous genius and a scary genius someone out would flip a coin. However, I would be very surprised to observe this.

Finally, I take issue with how often beauty is contrasted with intelligence or personality. There is nothing about good looks that inherently makes people dumb or nasty, and conversely there is nothing about being smart or kind that consigns one to wear a paper bag over one's head. Yes, it could be argued that an broadly higher evaluation of good-looking people provides them with less incentive to make the effort to raise their intelligence or care about the feelings of others, but to generalise along these lines is no less unfair and no less irrational than all other generalisations.

In turn, this raises a brief aside regarding the schizophrenic, if not hypocritical attitude to beauty found in present society (keep in mind that since I do not know you I am levelling this critique at social attitudes in general, rather than you specifically - I have no reason to do the latter). If we are honest with ourselves, we will admit that few of us will rebuke advances of a particularly ravishing member of the opposite sex (or of the same sex, I suppose, for those who happen to swing that way), regardless of almost all other characteristics and traits. Beauty permeates the media because beauty sells. Posture as we might, we are biologically compelled to this. And yet, few of us would actually state as much in open discussion. Physical attraction seldom fails to be derided as superficial or shallow. Hell, even beauty pageants are today filled with two-bit tripe about 'other' talents (or should than be other 'talents'?) of baton whirling and the promotion of world peace. Perhaps this is because beauty fits so poorly with the Protestant work ethic, and the be-whoever-you-want-to-be American Dream - after all, beauty is very obvious to evaluate, clearly unequally distributed, and all but impossible to alter.

With the sentiment of "all [people] are created equal" being more and more perverted away from its original meaning of equality in terms of our freedom only, and towards an interpretation of everything having identical value (everyone is special, apparently), the issue of beauty is bound to grate against this process as a chicken bone lodged in one's throat...

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How Hunter-Gatherers Maintained Their Egalitarian Ways
The important lessons from hunter-gatherers are about culture, not genes.
Post published by Peter Gray on May 16, 2011 in Freedom to Learn

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I'm taking a little break from my series on "The Human Nature of Teaching" in order to respond to questions about hunter-gatherer life in general, which were raised by my last post. As regular readers of this blog know, I have in previous posts commented on hunter-gatherers' playfulness; their playful religious practices; their playful approach toward productive work; their non-directive childrearing methods; and their children's playful ways of educating themselves. In all of those posts I emphasized the egalitarian, non-hierarchical nature of hunter-gatherer society. In today's post I present three theories as to how hunter-gatherers maintained the egalitarian ethos for which they are justly famous. I think all three of the theories are correct. They are complementary theories, not competing ones; and they are all theories about culture, not about genes.

First, before I get to the three theories, I must address this question: Is it true that hunter-gatherers were peaceful egalitarians? The answer is yes.

During the twentieth century, anthropologists discovered and studied dozens of different hunter-gatherer societies, in various remote parts of the world, who had been nearly untouched by modern influences. Wherever they were found--in Africa, Asia, South America, or elsewhere; in deserts or in jungles--these societies had many characteristics in common. The people lived in small bands, of about 20 to 50 persons (including children) per band, who moved from camp to camp within a relatively circumscribed area to follow the available game and edible vegetation. The people had friends and relatives in neighboring bands and maintained peaceful relationships with neighboring bands. Warfare was unknown to most of these societies, and where it was known it was the result of interactions with warlike groups of people who were not hunter-gatherers. In each of these societies, the dominant cultural ethos was one that emphasized individual autonomy, non-directive childrearing methods, nonviolence, sharing, cooperation, and consensual decision-making. Their core value, which underlay all of the rest, was that of the equality of individuals.

We citizens of a modern democracy claim to believe in equality, but our sense of equality is not even close that of hunter-gatherers. The hunter-gatherer version of equality meant that each person was equally entitled to food, regardless of his or her ability to find or capture it; so food was shared. It meant that nobody had more wealth than anyone else; so all material goods were shared. It meant that nobody had the right to tell others what to do; so each person made his or her own decisions. It meant that even parents didn't have the right to order their children around; hence the non-directive childrearing methods that I have discussed in previous posts. It meant that group decisions had to be made by consensus; hence no boss, "big man," or chief.

If just one anthropologist had reported all this, we might assume that he or she was a starry-eyed romantic who was seeing things that weren't really there, or was a liar. But many anthropologists, of all political stripes, regarding many different hunter-gatherer cultures, have told the same general story. There are some variations from culture to culture, of course, and not all of the cultures are quite as peaceful and fully egalitarian as others, but the generalities are the same. One anthropologist after another has been amazed by the degree of equality, individual autonomy, indulgent treatment of children, cooperation, and sharing in the hunter-gatherer culture that he or she studied. When you read about "warlike primitive tribes," or about indigenous people who held slaves, or about tribal cultures with gross inequalities between men and women, you are not reading about band hunter-gatherers.

Even today some people who should know better confuse primitive agricultural societies with hunter-gatherer societies and argue, from such confused evidence, that hunter-gatherers were violent and warlike. For example, one society often referred to in this mistaken way is that of the Yanomami, of South America's Amazon, made famous by Napoleon Chagnon in his book subtitled The fierce people. Chagnon tried to portray the Yanomami as representative of our pre-agricultural ancestors. But Chagnon knew well that the Yanomami were not hunter-gatherers and had not been for centuries. They did some hunting and gathering, but got the great majority of their calories from bananas and plantains, which they planted, cultivated, and harvested. Moreover, far from being untouched by modern cultures, these people had been repeatedly subjected to slave raids and genocide at the hands of truly vicious Spanish, Dutch, and Portuguese invaders.[1] No wonder they had become a bit "fierce" themselves.

The hunter-gatherer way of life, unlike the agricultural way of life that followed it, apparently depended on intense cooperation and sharing, backed up by a strong egalitarian ethos; so, hunter-gatherers everywhere found ways to maintain a strong egalitarian ethos. Now, back to the main question of this post. How did hunter-gatherers maintain their egalitarian ways? Here are the three theories, which I think are complementary to one another and all correct.

Theory 1: Hunter-gatherers practiced a system of "reverse dominance" that prevented anyone from assuming power over others.

The writings of anthropologists make it clear that hunter-gatherers were not passively egalitarian; they were actively so. Indeed, in the words of anthropologist Richard Lee, they were fiercely egalitarian.[2] They would not tolerate anyone's boasting, or putting on airs, or trying to lord it over others. Their first line of defense was ridicule. If anyone--especially if some young man--attempted to act better than others or failed to show proper humility in daily life, the rest of the group, especially the elders, would make fun of that person until proper humility was shown.

One regular practice of the group that Lee studied was that of "insulting the meat." Whenever a hunter brought back a fat antelope or other prized game item to be shared with the band, the hunter had to express proper humility by talking about how skinny and worthless it was. If he failed to do that (which happened rarely), others would do it for him and make fun of him in the process. When Lee asked one of the elders of the group about this practice, the response he received was the following: "When a young man kills much meat, he comes to think of himself as a big man, and he thinks of the rest of us as his inferiors. We can't accept this. We refuse one who boasts, for someday his pride will make him kill somebody. So we always speak of his meat as worthless. In this way we cool his heart and make him gentle."

On the basis of such observations, Christopher Boehm proposed the theory that hunter-gatherers maintained equality through a practice that he labeled reverse dominance. In a standard dominance hierarchy--as can be seen in all of our ape relatives (yes, even in bonobos)--a few individuals dominate the many. In a system of reverse dominance, however, the many act in unison to deflate the ego of anyone who tries, even in an incipient way, to dominate them.

According to Boehm, hunter-gatherers are continuously vigilant to transgressions against the egalitarian ethos. Someone who boasts, or fails to share, or in any way seems to think that he (or she, but usually it's a he) is better than others is put in his place through teasing, which stops once the person stops the offensive behavior. If teasing doesn't work, the next step is shunning. The band acts as if the offending person doesn't exist. That almost always works. Imagine what it is like to be completely ignored by the very people on whom your life depends. No human being can live for long alone. The person either comes around, or he moves away and joins another band, where he'd better shape up or the same thing will happen again. In his 1999 book, Hierarchy in the Forest, Boehm presents very compelling evidence for his reverse dominance theory.

Theory 2: Hunter-gathers maintained equality by nurturing the playful side of their human nature, and play promotes equality.

This is my own theory, which I introduced two years ago in an article in the American Journal of Play.[3] I will not go into detail about it here, because I have presented bits of the theory in other posts (see, for example, my post of June 11, 2009). Briefly, however, the theory is this. Hunter-gatherers maintained their egalitarian ethos by cultivating the playful side of their human nature.

Social play--that is, play involving more than one player--is necessarily egalitarian. It always requires a suspension of aggression and dominance along with a heightened sensitivity to the needs and desires of the other players. Players may recognize that one playmate is better at the played activity than are others, but that recognition must not lead the one who is better to lord it over the others.

This is true for play among animals as well as for that among humans. For example, when two young monkeys of different size and strength engage in a play fight, the stronger one deliberately self-handicaps, avoids actions that would frighten or hurt the playmate, and sends repeated play signals that are understood as signs of non-aggression. That is what makes the activity a play fight instead of a real fight. If the stronger animal failed to behave in these ways, the weaker one would feel threatened and flee, and the play would end. The drive to play, therefore, requires suppression of the drive to dominate.

My theory, then, is that hunter-gatherers suppressed the tendency to dominate and promoted egalitarian sharing and cooperation by deliberately fostering a playful attitude in essentially all of their social activities. Our capacity for play, which we inherited from our mammalian ancestors, is the natural, evolved capacity that best counters our capacity to dominate, which we also inherited from our mammalian ancestors.

My play theory of hunter-gather equality is based largely on evidence, gleaned from analysis of the anthropological literature, that play permeated the social lives of hunter-gatherers--more so than is the case for any known, long-lasting post-hunter-gatherer cultures. Their hunting and gathering were playful; their religious beliefs and practices were playful; their practices of dividing meat and of sharing goods outside of the band as well as inside of the band were playful; and even their most common methods of punishing offenders within their group (through humor and ridicule) had a playful element.[3] By infusing essentially all of their activities with play, hunter-gatherers kept themselves in the kind of mood that most strongly, by evolutionary design, counters the drive to dominate others.

Theory 3: Hunter-gatherers maintained their ethos of equality through their childrearing practices, which engendered feelings of trust and acceptance in each new generation.

As I have explained in a previous post, hunter-gatherers employed a style of parenting that others have referred to as "permissive" or "indulgent," but which I prefer to call "trusting." They trusted infants' and children's instincts, and so they allowed infants to decide, for example, when to nurse or not nurse and allowed children to educate themselves through their own self-directed play and exploration. They did not physically punish children and rarely criticized them. One researcher who suggested that the moral character of hunter-gatherers comes from their kindly child-raising methods is Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, who was among the first to study the Ju/'hoansi of Africa's Kalahari Desert. Here is what she had to say about the parenting she observed:

"Ju/'hoan children very rarely cried, probably because they had little to cry about. No child was ever yelled at or slapped or physically punished, and few were even scolded. Most never heard a discouraging word until they were approaching adolescence, and even then the reprimand, if it really was a reprimand, was delivered in a soft voice. ... We are sometimes told that children who are treated so kindly become spoiled, but this is because those who hold that opinion have no idea how successful such measures can be. Free from frustration or anxiety, sunny and cooperative, the children were every parent's dream. No culture can ever have raised better, more intelligent, more likable, more confident children."[4]

One esteemed contemporary researcher who has implicitly if not explicitly supported the parenting theory of hunter-gatherer moral development is fellow PT blogger Darcia Narvaez, author of the blog Moral Landscapes. It is difficult to prove with empirical evidence that the kindly, trustful parenting of hunter-gatherers promotes development of people who treat one another kindly and who eschew aggression, but the theory makes intuitive sense. It makes sense that infants and children who are themselves trusted and treated well from the beginning would grow up to trust others and treat them well and would feel little or no need to dominate others in order to get their needs met.

The childrearing theory overlaps with my play theory, because hunter-gatherers allowed their children, including teenagers, to play essentially from dawn to dusk. The children grew up believing that life is play and then went on to conduct esssentially all of their adult tasks in a playful mood--the mood that counters the drive to dominate.
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In sum, my argument here is that the lessons we have to learn from hunter-gatherers are not about our genes but about our culture. Our species clearly has the genetic potential to be peaceful and egalitarian, on the one hand, or to be warlike and despotic, on the other, or anything in between. If the three theories I've described here are correct, and if we truly believe in the values of equality and peace and want them to reign once again as the norm for human beings, then we need to (a) find ways to deflate the egos, rather than support the egos, of the despots, bullies, and braggarts among us; (b) make our ways of life more playful; and (c) raise our children in kindly, trusting ways.

And now, I hope to hear from you in the comments and questions space below. I read all comments with the intent of learning from them, and I try to respond to all serious questions. I prefer if you put your comments and questions here rather than in a private email to me. By putting them here, you share with other readers, not just me. -- Peace be with you.

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See new book, Free to Learn (link is external)

Reference Notes

[1] Salamone, F. A. (1997). The Yanomami and their interpreters: Fierce people or fierce interpreters? Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America.

[2] Lee, R. B. (1988). Reflections on primitive communism. In T. Ingold, D. Riches, & J. Woodburn (Eds), Hunters and gatherers 1, 252-268 Oxford: Berg.

[3] Gray, P. (2009). Play as a foundation for hunter-gatherer social existence. American Journal of Play, 1, 476-522.

[4] Thomas, E. M. (2006). The old way. New York: Farrar, Straus & Giroux. p 198-199.

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shut up woman!
go an cook me some dinner :)

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