MovieChat Forums > Stop-Loss (2008) Discussion > Vets with PTSD thinking about what happe...

Vets with PTSD thinking about what happened


Just throwing out some ideas about ways for Iraq vets to think about what happened there that would use clear reasoning. This could be helpful for them.

Reasoning clearly would mean not falling into the reasoning errors
that would make a person come to faulty conclusions. I'm thinking
now about some of the reasoning errors that would lead you to a
false conclusion.

Here are some of them:

Failure to recognize that different decision-making "rules" apply
when time is precious than in situations that allow more time to
think about your options. Later, when you have more time, you can
make the mistake of second-guessing yourself without realizing that
you didn't have that time before. It doesn't make sense to second-
guess yourself.

Weighing the merits of actions taken against options that only came
to mind later on.

Weighing the merits of actions taken against ideal or fantasy
options that did not exist. If those options didn't really exist at
the time for you, there is no way you could have taken them.

Focusing only on the "good" things that might have happened if a
different action had been taken. How do you know for sure that bad
things would not have happened if you had taken that different
action?

Tendency to overlook benefits associated with actions taken. Did
anything good come out of the action taken?

Failure to compare available options in terms of their perceived
probabilities of success before outcomes were known. How do you
know that the other action you wish you had taken would have been
successful? Are you just assuming it would have been successful?

Ignoring the totality of forces that cause tramatic events. There
are a lot of forces in play that cause events to happen the way they
do, and your actions were just one piece of it, and maybe a small
piece when you really think about it.

Equating a belief that one could have done something to prevent an
event with a belief that one caused the event. Just because a
person could have stopped something from happening doesn't mean that
they made it happen. It was other things that made it happen.

Confusion between responsibility as accountability and
responsibility as power to cause or control outcomes. Having been
given a job or "put in charge" does not mean that one has complete
control.

Tendency to conclude wrongdoing on the basis of the outcome
rather than on the basis of one's intentions (before the outcome was
known).

Failure to realize that strong emotional reactions are not under
voluntary control (not a matter of choice or willpower).

Failure to realize that when all the available options have bad
outcomes, the least bad choice is a highly moral choice.

Anyhow, these may be some things for an Iraq vet to consider thinking about, so that he/she is reasoning clearly.

Note: I am working toward becoming a state-licensed psychologist as a second career after I retire from my present career, and have an interest in treating veterans with PTSD.



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How about people make mistakes and they should take responsibility for them?
Way too many people try to find an excuse not to.

It's like burying your head in the sand, hoping that it will eventually go away.

We should face reality, feel guilt and remorse and take responsibility for our actions when we screw up.



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I agree with you that people should take responsibility. But that is not what is happening with OIF veterans with PTSD. Instead of taking responsibility, they are seeing things unrealistically, and are not thinking clearly. It is healthier to truly face reality, and see things clearly.

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quote:"I agree with you that people should take responsibility. But that is not what is happening with "IRAQ" veterans with "Post Traumatic stress syndrome". unquote.

Talk in layman's terms here,not everyone are experts on our army abbreviation's remember?

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trailinghome...
Dude, you're both a loser and a troll. I already feel like an idiot for even bothering with you. Get a life.

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You don't know me, you lucky fella. LOL
Oh, I thought this movie was one of the best war movies I've seen in years, if not the best.

Personally, I would of offed the guy with the cell phone, and anyone who threatens my comrades with no hesitation whatsoever.
And not lose any sleep!

PS
Saddam Insane never had to put up with IED's and suicide bombers.
Wonder why?
I know why!

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wow ,My uncle have PTSD he spent 15 years in Para.2 of the French foreign legion,I myself Is a 25 year old OR-5(Sgt) that is part of the ISAF force currently consisting of units deployed to OEF(Afghanistan)We will ship out in august this year.
Just so its mentioned too, my cousin was in Lebanon ,he commited suicide ater he came home(had a big ol' party ,gave away his clothes and hung himself in the morning hours).
I have several friends that are veterans of OIF/OEF,many of them have problems,but I DO NOT however think that any of those problems is caused by lack of responsibility or "burying its head in the sand".
Individuals with that mentality would never have enlisted in the military knowing they would be deployed to a combat zone willingly.
I think all you "know it all" "professors" shouldn't be so quick to pass judgment on something thats not fully understood yet,PTSD or "shell shock" as it were called in the old days are a very real condition brought on by prolonged stress and fear that inevitably follows active duty in an combat zone environment.
"Do not judge people before you have walked a mile in their shoes" an old saying says..
Respectfully.

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I'm sorry about your cousin, my sincere condolences.

Now:
Shell Shock and PTSD are NOT the same.

Anyone who joins the military should realise that they could be inserted into an area of conflict, fighting for their own life and those of others.
What it all comes down to, is strength of character, a persons control of their thinking, their own brain and emotions.

Mentally weak people are the ones who are susceptible to PTSD.
Sorry, but that's the truth.
PTSD and shell shock are the same as being wounded by a bullet or explosive etc.

An aside:
I whole heartedly support all our troops, it's the politicians and multi national energy companies who screw them.

Iraq and Afghanistan are the new Viet Nams,(this time it's oil and gas)the troops don't know who the enemy is, no uniforms!
Their enemy are terrorists, murderers, drug dealers and to put it mildly bullies.
They torture, rape and kill the most vulnerable, women and children especially.
"LETS GO SHOPPING AND GET BLOWN UP"

There is a big stink in the UK right now regarding the equipment that the military are seeking to protect their troops.
Remember the armor (Hum V's) and body armor stink in the US?
Actually, I should say the lack of it!
Where's Congress when you need them?

Guess the media has forggoton about that one too.

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There's a danger in knowing just enough to be dangerous. PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, as it's called now, has had many names over the century or so that it's symptoms have been recognized. It also has many degrees. It's not just brought on by warfare but, look at the name, by trauma. The people in New York on 9/11 are walking, talking victims of PTSD. And to some extent much of the USA is also.

"Shell Shock and PTSD are NOT the same."

"Shell shock" was one of the original names for this condition. It did NOT refer to the physical aftermath of being shelled but the psychological damages of being under constant, frightening combat. Another name once adopted was "battle fatique."

The following is the definition of PTSD from the U.S. Department of Veterans' Affairs: "After a trauma or life threatening event it is common to have upsetting memories of what happened, to have trouble sleeping, to feel jumpy, or to lose interest in things you used to enjoy. For some people these reactions do not go away on their own, or may even get worse over time. These people may have Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)."

"Mentally weak people are the ones who are susceptible to PTSD."

Please notice that no mention of mental weakness is mentioned. In fact, in my own personal experience, those who are the strongest often suffer the worst. They try to suppress the condition and eventually it overwhelms them. Unfortunately, they often have the same view that you have, that to admit to having an unmanageable illness is to be weak.


"I'd never ask you to trust me. It's the cry of a guilty soul."

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Vets with PTSD are just a bunch of wimps.
Guess you won't be doing it for "FREE"!

Yeah, go ahead and take em for all you can.
On second thought-pun intended...
How much an hour will you charge them, er the government, er us taxpayers?

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[deleted]

Charging for no services rendered eh, sure ya won't run away scared when ya see me or cower before me, ya might even poop ya pants or beg forgiveness.

Belay that, you probably wear a dress, you're not man enough to wear pants.

oops sorry,
Guess ya pretty brave after all...
through emails.

I just wonder how brave you would be in a real life threatening situation.
oops, you did have a few, maybe, and then fell apart like most US forces personnel.

What happened did the ice cream and beer trucks arrive late or did you lose satellite reception and weren't able to watch your favorite soaps?

Thank God you were never covering my back!
Softy.

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I am a vet, and it's pretty apparent from your posts that you are not.
I don't care what taxes you pay. You get the money to live your life and pay those taxes because we have stood between you and those who would take that away from you, as well as making it so that you don't have to worry about getting drafted. You may not agree with everything we've been sent to do, but that's the same way with us, genius. We don't always agree about what we're sent to do, but we do it because that's our job and if we didn't do that job our country would fall apart.
The ones who are raking in all the dough are not the soldiers/marines/sailors/airmen. It's the contractors. They make at least double what a joe makes for the same job, usually quite a bit more.
I think you should have to pay more taxes. You haven't put your ass on the line...what do you deserve?

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I wasn't talking about armed forces personnel regarding $$$.
And I was in the military, so was my dad, step dad and brothers.
My dad lost his mom and all his brothers and sisters during the Spanish Civil war fighting for the Royalists against Franco and Hitler, I also lost family during WWII.

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I really am sorry that your worthwhile thread has been hijacked by some jackass who either is or wants to appear to be a psychopath.
I understood everything you said. I want to encourage you in your efforts to help others. That's the reason real soldiers become soldiers. We want to fight for what's right and help others.
It was once pointed out to me that one of the biggest reasons that people end up with PTSD is not the traumatic situations themselves, but the realizations that they produce...the burning image that the world is an unsafe place for you and those you care about, where the good don't always win and the right thing to do is not always clear. Most people know this in their minds, but never have to experience it in their hearts.
As far as feedback for the ideas you mentioned goes, I think that you present many valid ideas, but I think that the repeated use of the word "failure" might be counter-productive. Then again, as soldiers we are taught to easily accept that we failed at something, so maybe it's a wording that might (counter-intuitively) actually sink in better. Kind of like reverse psychology..."you failed to notice that you succeeded in doing the best thing you could."
I'd like to hear other thoughts on this.

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Cuba
Viet Nam
Somalia
Iraq
Afghanistan

Oh, you did win in Granada. LOL
Guess you'll be staying out of Iran.

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I totally agree. Some people let having access and the ability to comment go to their feeble little minds. Don't let the trolls get you down.

"I'd never ask you to trust me. It's the cry of a guilty soul."

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Wow.

Singing your song from the cheap seats aren't you there.

Must be nice the live in your delusional world.

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