Chevy Volt tanking in marketplace - here are numbers - Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006) Discussion

[–] apeweek 13 years ago

...Sales for February were 281, down from 321 in January...The Leaf sold a whopping 67 cars in February, down from 87 in January.

This article is idiotic, and you aren't much better for not thinking this through. Both vehicles have just been introduced, production is being ramped up, and very few have been delivered. Pre-orders for both vehicles are still through the roof.

Those numbers represent the vehicles that have been manufactured and delivered to date, not demand. I'm waiting for my Volt, and I have been told that I probably won't get mine until sometime in 2012.

By all means, go to a Chevy or Nissan dealer, and ask for one. See what they tell you. You probably won't find a single electric vehicle even on the lot.

Wasn't there some electric car evangelist here who was constantly telling us how everyone would rush out and buy electric cars if only the car companies made them? Boy did that prediction ever fall flat on its face.

I'll put cash on this wager if you're bold enough - that both vehicles will be at least as popular as the average auto model. But you'll have to wait until production is up to speed and the cars are readily available from dealerships.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

Those are 321 new orders, are they not? Sales is what they have released, not deliveries. There's a reason GM's official statement tried to gloss over these numbers.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

Those are 321 new orders, are they not?

Once again, pre-orders are being filled. They are not "new orders".

Sales is what they have released, not deliveries.

Agreed. But they can only sell and deliver what they have built. Remember the vehicles are still in 'test mode', and only being shipped to a few states.

Plus ramping up production of a new vehicle is difficult, production bugs must get ironed out.

Here's an article explaining why the early sales numbers are completely invalid for judging the success of these cars:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/rumors-of-the-chevy-volt-8217s- and-nissan-leaf-8217s-demise-have-been-ahem-exaggerated/3396

There's a reason GM's official statement tried to gloss over these numbers.

They are not valid sales numbers, as they do not reflect pre-orders, or actual demand for the car.

But by all means, since it makes you feel good, pretend that only 321 people want the car. In the entire world.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

True they can only *deliver* what they have built. But again, these numbers are not deliveries, they are new orders. In February, across the whole of North America, only two-hundred-something people said, "You know what, I want to buy one of those." That's not very impressive and kind of says something about the low demand for these cars by the public at large.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

But again, these numbers are not deliveries, they are new orders.

Why would brand new orders be allowed to bypass tens of thousands of people who have pre-ordered vehicles? You are not making much sense. Are you seriously denying that pre-orders have taken place? Are you saying that countless news articles have lied and conspired to create this impression? That my own pre-order has not occurred?

In February, across the whole of North America, only two-hundred-something people said, "You know what, I want to buy one of those."

These cars are not even available "across the whole of North America"

You absolutely sure you want to dig this hole of ignorance for yourself?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/09/report-nissan-has-56-000-pre-orde rs-for-all-electric-leaf/

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/7846150/the-general-forum/chevy-volt-p reorders-hits-50-000/index.html

That's over 100,000 pre-orders between these two cars. You need to read the link I gave you in my last post, it explains the test phase these two cars are in - only a few cars are presently being delivered to a few states.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

New orders! Do you understand what new orders means? Not *deliveries*. Orders. You understand that GM is taking orders for cars, right?

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

New orders! Do you understand what new orders means? Not *deliveries*. Orders. You understand that GM is taking orders for cars, right?

They are not "taking orders". I can't go to a GM dealer and order one. Try this, they'll have you get in line behind 50,000 people. The "New orders" are coming from the pre-orders. The pre-orders are not actual orders until cars are built - the pre-orders are just reservations. Customers were allowed to put down $1000 deposits to hold a place in line. This becomes a "new order" when their car is built, if the customer still wants it. Chevy doesn't record a sale when a pre-order (reservation) happens, they record a sale when the customer says 'yes', and the car can be purchased and delivered.

Orders in the pipeline are being filled very slowly right now while the first few cars get tested by drivers in just a few select markets.

I already gave you a link that explains all of this.

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/rumors-of-the-chevy-volt-8217s- and-nissan-leaf-8217s-demise-have-been-ahem-exaggerated/3396

Here's another:

http://www.strategicsourceror.com/2011/03/gm-and-nissan-limit-supply-o f-electric.html

And I gave you links that show over 100,000 pre-orders of these cars have been made.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/09/report-nissan-has-56-000-pre-orde rs-for-all-electric-leaf/

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/7846150/the-general-forum/chevy-volt-p reorders-hits-50-000/index.html

Read some of this stuff for heavens sake, so we can move the discussion forward.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

Let me explain something to you Dave: Pre-orders are orders taken *before* a product is released. Orders are taken *after* a product is released. The Volt has already been released and GM is trying to get as many orders as they can. These are not pre-orders. They are simply orders. In February, there were under 300 orders for this product.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

These are not pre-orders. They are simply orders. In February, there were under 300 orders for this product.

As an acquaintance of mine says; Wow. Just wow. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

What else can I say? Your statement above is simply mind-bogglingly dumb. Cars are not being built at full capacity, as cars are still being delivered only to test markets. Orders are coming from pre-orders. You evidently haven't read any of the links I sent you that explain this. You haven't responded, at all, to any of the facts in them, or to my own explanations.

A few questions for you:

-How exactly does the Volt get to 50,000 pre-orders when only 300 people per month sign up? At that rate it would take 166 months, or about 14 years, to build that backlog. Have people been signing onto the Volt pre-order list since 1997?

-If GM is bypassing the pre-orders to take new orders, why would they do this? Why not fill the thousands of orders they already have? Wouldn't filling thousands of pre-orders make their sales figures look great?

-Why won't GM fill my order? Why have I been waiting since November for mine? What would GM have to gain by lying to potential customers about a huge backlog, and making them wait months, or even over a year, to get their orders? Why would GM intentionally make their sales figures look low, when there are thousands of people waiting for cars?

Another link you won't click: This one shows the states the Volt is being tested in - just the four red states for 1st quarter 2011.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/27/chevy-volt-available-nationwide-201 1/

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

Listen Dave, those 280 orders were *all the new orders* for this car they received in February. I'll say that again in case you have complications understanding this: They are ALL of the NEW orders taken in February for this car. Is that sinking in now?

-How exactly does the Volt get to 50,000 pre-orders when only 300 people per month sign up? At that rate it would take 166 months, or about 14 years, to build that backlog. Have people been signing onto the Volt pre-order list since 1997?

Well Dave, you see, those were pre-orders! Yes, pre-orders. Orders taken before the product was released. Those occur when there is a cult following of enthusiastic people for a product and they all dive headlong into a product before they have even tested it. They put their pre-orders in, and now apparently that was just about all the people who were interested in this product, because there were only about 280 new orders in February.

-If GM is bypassing the pre-orders to take new orders, why would they do this? Why not fill the thousands of orders they already have? Wouldn't filling thousands of pre-orders make their sales figures look great?

Bypassing pre-orders? Who the hell said that? Nope, they are not bypassing pre-orders. They are still trying and failing to manufacture this product in large quantities because the technology has mass-production problems. However, and this is the thing you seem to be purposely overlooking, there were about 280 new orders for this vehicle in February, even with all the hype.

-Why won't GM fill my order? Why have I been waiting since November for mine? What would GM have to gain by lying to potential customers about a huge backlog, and making them wait months, or even over a year, to get their orders? Why would GM intentionally make their sales figures look low, when there are thousands of people waiting for cars?

As I said above, because they are having problems getting a handle on this technology, which doesn't seem quite ready for mass production. From what I can tell, you are trying to make it out that I said somewhere GM has filled all the pre-orders. They have not been able to do that. However, again, they have taken 280 new orders in February. Capiche? This should have been easy to understand the very first time I stated it. I have no idea why you are pretending not to understand this very easy concept.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

those 280 orders were *all the new orders* for this car they received in February. I'll say that again in case you have complications understanding this: They are ALL of the NEW orders taken in February for this car. Is that sinking in now?

The links I have provided to articles explain all of this. If you would care to rebut the information I provided, we can continue discussing. If you wish to simply repeat yourself, of course, I have nothing new to add.

Bypassing pre-orders? Who the hell said that?

You did, here:

you are trying to make it out that I said somewhere GM has filled all the pre-orders. They have not been able to do that. However, again, they have taken 280 new orders in February.

New orders come from the pre-orders. If not, they would be bypassing the pre-orders. You can't just order this car right now. Your name gets put on the pre-order list (and is not marked down as a sale.) Sales come from pre-orders. Therefore it is disingenuous to call them "new orders".

The car is in limited production right now. All this was planned well ahead of time. The car is in limited test markets only.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

Lol! No Dave, new orders do not come from preorders. Holy crap. Preorders are just that: preorders. They are orders taken *before* the product was released.

Orders, on the other hand, are orders taken *after* a product is released.

Deliveries are when the product is actually delivered to people that have either preordered or ordered a product.

There were about 280 new orders taken in all of February.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

Lol! No Dave, new orders do not come from preorders. Holy crap. Preorders are just that: preorders. They are orders taken *before* the product was released.

Okay, this is the part you are not getting. You said yourself that GM can't fill the preorders. So why would they take new orders and put them ahead of preorders?

Preorders are not sales. They are reservations. When cars are built, people who reserved cars are allowed to buy them. Those are the "new orders" you are talking about. tell us, how do you think these reservations get filled?

Geez, this is not a difficult concept.

But you know what? If you just don't want to 'get' this, there's really nothing I can do.

EDIT: I just want to add that this is the seventh time I have explained this. Can you address my explanation, or the explanations on the websites I've linked to, or will you just come back and repeat exactly the same thing?

I strongly suspect you are trolling me, you understand perfectly well that the car is not in full production yet, and you just like seeing me jump up and down.

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[–] bbagnall 13 years ago

Okay, this is the part you are not getting. You said yourself that GM can't fill the preorders. So why would they take new orders and put them ahead of preorders?

They don't. Who said they did? And why is the order of the deliveries even relevant? Again, we are talking about new orders that were taken in February. You know what a new order is, right? It's when a customer goes up to a company and says, "Hi, I'd like to buy a car."

Preorders are not sales. They are reservations. When cars are built, people who reserved cars are allowed to buy them. Those are the "new orders" you are talking about.

Whoa there. Don't be putting words in my mouth. When a preorder is finally filled, this is not considered a new order. This is just delivering on a previous order.

But you know what? If you just don't want to 'get' this, there's really nothing I can do.

I can't tell if you are being serious or joking, but you sure are trying your best to torture the language here.

I strongly suspect you are trolling me, you understand perfectly well that the car is not in full production yet, and you just like seeing me jump up and down.

Question: What does any of what you just said have to do with ~280 orders that were taken in February in all of North America for this car? Because that's all I said when I posted this original message and you decided you were going to oppose factual information for God-knows what strange reason.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

...When a preorder is finally filled, this is not considered a new order. This is just delivering on a previous order.

Interesting. So when is this sale recorded? Where are GM's sales figures from those 50,000 pre-orders? I can't seem to find them...

Funny how I didn't fill out any paperwork that committed me to buying a Volt when I pre-ordered mine... Doesn't a sale happen when contracts are signed, and the money changes hands?

Here's a quote from the first article I sent you:

"...some Volts aren’t even being offered for sale — they’re instead functioning as test-drive models, or “halo” vehicles intended to attract customers to Chevy dealerships. And as far as production goes, pretty much every car that rolls off the assembly lines has already been claimed by an owner."

'Already claimed by an owner' means that all the cars made so far are being sold to the people who reserved them long ago. Say, wouldn't a sale be recorded when this happens?

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[–] hitking 13 years ago

Regarding the nationally reported auto sales numbers recently reported...

I was listening to a 'Money type' talk show where the higher sales numbers were actually 'sales' of cars from the factories to the dealers and really didn't reflect real life Main Street purchases/economics.

Essentially, just another way to report how well things are going in the economy when its not doing anywhere near as well as the reported numbers would indicate.

Apparently the Dealers are economically able to 'buy' the new cars as they are actually just holding them for some ridiculously low short term lease or storage charge.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

Update: here's an interesting article about dealers that see demand for the Volt, but haven't any to sell:

http://www.registerguard.com/web/business/26169499-41/volt-guaranty-ch evrolet-nill-sell.html.csp

And here's an updated GM wait-list for the Volt:

http://gm-volt.com/wait-list-data/

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[–] truekiwijoker 12 years ago

I think you should hand some ownership papers Dave. It's hilarious you couldn't tell the difference between orders and sales.

So almost a year on, how are Chevy Volt sales coming along again? C'mon enlighten us with the update Dave.

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[–] apeweek 12 years ago

...It's hilarious you couldn't tell the difference between orders and sales.

What does this comment even mean? Of course I knew what the sales figures were. The gist of this discussion was that Volts were being made in limited numbers and sold into just a few markets for most of 2011.

So the early sales figures meant very little when there were buyers waiting in line for them. This is why early Volts were often selling for inflated figures, up to $20,000 over list price.

...So almost a year on, how are Chevy Volt sales coming along

More Volts sold in its first year on the market (about 7,500) versus Prius first year on the US market (about 5,000.) That's a pretty good start.

Brand new tech doesn't sweep the market in its first year. Cellphones weren't in everyone's pocket after just one year. Nobody expected Volt to blow the doors off sales.

EV sales will grow year over year, tightly tied into increasing gasoline prices.

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[–] apeweek 11 years ago

...So almost a year on, how are Chevy Volt sales coming along again? C'mon enlighten us with the update Dave.

Well, now it's been over two years since Volt was introduced, so here's how Volt sales are coming along.

Volt/Ampera sales for 2012, including both US and international sales, totaled 30,115 cars. Sales stats are on Volt's Wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Global_sales

For reference, it took Toyota over seven years after introduction to get Prius sales to that yearly sales figure.

And while nobody is pretending that's best-seller territory, it is nonetheless better than most (more than half) of the car models for sale today.

This fact can be confirmed on this list of all car models ranked by sales. Volt's position is above the halfway point.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/01/2012-usa-auto-sales-rankings-by-m odel7.html

The list can be ranked various ways by clicking on the headers. When ranked by percent sales growth year-over-year, Volt jumps to near the top of the list. It's catching on.

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[–] MuggySphere 13 years ago

And how long does it take to build a car?

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

And how long does it take to build a car?

Well, the issue isn't that it takes an especially long time to build a Volt or Leaf - it's that these automakers made a decision to release a limited number of vehicles into just a few markets to begin with. Full production on the Volt won't begin until 2012.

The reasoning, I'm sure, is to shake out any bugs that turn up. These are radically different cars, after all.

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

From UPI: "GM's Volt is a first-year sellout"

Quotes: "...GM said the production run for 2011 was set at 4,488 for the hybrid Chevrolet Volt and they've all been sold"

"GM, meanwhile, has increased its production schedule to 16,000 for 2011 and plans to make 60,000 in 2012. Eventually, GM plans to make 100,000 Volts per year."

Article here: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2011/08/01/GMs-Volt-is-a-first-year-s ellout/UPI-56771312230208/

Lots of people still on the waiting list, too:

http://gm-volt.com/wait-list-data/

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[–] ManFromSanFernando 13 years ago

ITS TOO EXPENSIVE

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[–] apeweek 13 years ago

...ITS TOO EXPENSIVE

No, not if you think about the total cost of ownership. First of all, you should not buy this car unless you can drive all your city miles inside the electric range. Switching to gasoline only for highway miles is OK, the Volt can get 40mpg on the freeway.

Sure, the monthly payments are high, but the fuel bills are very low. Your total monthly $ outlay will wind up very close to a conventional car.

It won't work for everyone. But depending on your driving pattern, and the cost of gasoline, it will be the most economical car out there for some people.

Proof can be found on this fuel efficient car calculator:

http://www.squidoo.com/a-free-calculator-for-economy-hybrid-and-electr ic-cars

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[–] akoolaidroom 11 years ago

I wonder if the OP ever comes back to see how off his comments are with sales figures moving on up recently.

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[–] apeweek 11 years ago

Here's the challenge I made in my initial response to the first post in this thread:

"...I'll put cash on this wager if you're bold enough - that both vehicles will be at least as popular as the average auto model."

The sales ranking link I provided (a few posts back) shows this has come true - Volt sells in the top half of the list of sales stats of all US auto models - IOW, a little better than the average car model.

Leaf's 2012 US sales didn't do as well (though internationally they did nearly as well as Volt last year.)

In 2013, however, Leaf's US sales are keeping pace with Volt.

The whole trip from test-market introduction to matching sales with average car models only took about two years for both cars.

Toyota Prius, by way of comparison, took about 7 years to reach the same level of sales. Prius has since risen to be one of the best selling models in the world.

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[–] hitking 9 years ago

I don't hear anything anymore about either the Volt or the Leaf.

They won't be back unless gas hit's $5 a gallon.

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[–] apeweek 9 years ago

True, low gas prices aren't good news for any high-mileage cars, though both cars are doing OK, still roughly 20 to 30 thousand cars per year. And Tesla is doing much better sales than either Volt or Leaf.

And, if you realize that gas prices will go back up one day, it's a great time to get a bargain on one of these cars.

For example, it looks like I can trade my 2011 Volt up to a 2016 Volt for about $10-12 thousand out of pocket.

That's a great deal for me - the 2016 has an electric range of 50 miles (up to 70 miles off-freeway.)

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[–] hitking 9 years ago

A friend of mine has a hybrid Honda. He's worried about his batteries every winter and having to replace them.

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[–] mr-video-1 9 years ago

I don't have direct experience with Honda hybrids, but the Toyota Prius batteries have proved to be very reliable. Some of the earliest Prius batteries lasted over 300,000 miles.

Here's an article from Consumer Reports where they tested a 200,000 mile Prius against a Prius with new batteries - there was almost no difference in performance between old and new batteries:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

Battery performance fear is overblown, based on old battery technology. New EV battery tech is far, far better.

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[–] hitking 9 years ago

I saw my first Volt the other day.

Do they even TV advertise them anymore?

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[–] mr-video-1 9 years ago

Do they even TV advertise them anymore?

GM has never seemed to put much marketing effort into the car.

Cheap gas has hurt sales of all the fuel-efficient car models, but Volt was still selling OK.

GM seems to be shooting itself in the foot again, however, by making the next generation Volt (2016 model) hard to get. Reportedly you can only buy the model in one of the handful of CARB states. The rest of us have to wait for the 2017 model.

I had been hoping to trade my original 2011 for a 2016 while my Volt still had some decent trade-in value. The next-generation model has a nicely improved (extra 20%) electric driving range.

Don't know the reason, but perhaps they think there are bugs to work out before they make it widely available.

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