Resorting to insulting people with whom you disagree (eg, calling them "ignorant" and accusing them of "thesaurus-enhanced whining") is usually a sign that you're threatened by their opinion and expression; that you're responding to some perceived personal aggression or threat.
You're the person who's been coming back to this thread for two years and you think I feel threatened?
I don't need to persuade anybody; it was just about expressing my opinion, which you're free to take, leave, or discuss. Going by your aggression, you're the one who seems to have a problem with disagreement.
Again, why come back to this thread over a period of two years? I guess you may not be persuasive, but you sure are obsessive. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the film, but as I'm sure you know, it's really hard to discuss anything when there is nothing to discuss. You have provided nothing but, yes,
whinings.
And where are your "examples" and "arguments" which you say you need so much? My comments were specifically about the film, which you haven't mentioned. You've referred to "Japanese traditional art forms", "the collected works of Japanese film historians", made general comments about Japanese films and Yamazaki, and crudely critiqued my writing style. (You must have read plenty of magazine articles and book chapters; why be so offended by my humble vocabulary?)
What about the film?
Again, as I'm sure you know, an argument is really only an argument (in this case) when one side states an opinion backed by concrete examples from the film. Since you started this two years ago to express your disgust with the film with little to no explanation other than it's manipulative and soulless, it really can't continue unless you stop immature ramblings like "you're all threatened by my opinions" and actually provide a real reason why you dislike the film and engage your opposition.
Since you seem incapable of actually saying anything else other than we're all threatened by your opinion, I'll go ahead and explain my views of the film further. My general comments on Japanese films, traditional art forms, and director Yamazaki are perfectly acceptable in that they place the film firmly in a historical and cultural context. In so doing, the film takes on a greater meaning as it is not
just a movie but also a cultural artifact that uses the past to reflect on the present. Since the director and many members of the cast and crew were either born soon after these events or actually lived through this time period, I find that their insight and honesty shines through in every aspect of the film. Yes, the film glossed over certain aspects of post World War II Japanese society, but the film's intent was not to act as a scathing critique of politics of society but as an unapologetic piece of nostalgia, as a reminder of promise and hope in a time of uncertainty. Japanese society is becoming increasingly isolated and fragmented (watch the films of Kiyoshi Kurosawa such as
Pulse,
Tokyo Sonata, and
Cure for great critiques on this aspect), and the final scene in
Always, in which each group of characters marvel from different locations at the completed Tokyo Tower, is indeed a metaphor for rebirth but also acts as a call for solidarity.
Forgive me if any of my comments are off the mark, but you have neglected to explain yourself using specifics, so I can only assume what you are really complaining about. Finally, let me ask you this. You say that you were disgusted by the film's soulless sentimentality. What would you say to members of Japan's older population who viewed the film with tears in their eyes and smiles on their faces? Do you think perhaps that the film is not soullessly insincere but that it's just not meant for you?
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omoo22
16 years ago
"What would you say to members of Japan's older population who viewed the film with tears in their eyes and smiles on their faces?"
I'd say about them that, like any population prone to nostalgic delusion, elderly or otherwise, they are perhaps not in possession of the most incisive critical facilities.
I'd say to them something like "Glad you enjoyed yourselves", confirming also whether they're not tears of frustration and smiles of ridicule.
What would you say to members of Japan's elderly population (or any other population) who viewed the film and felt their emotions and intelligence had been insulted? That they should say nothing and conform with the "majority" view (of which you seem to take such comfort in being a part), or you'll insult them and their mode of expression?
"Do you think perhaps that the film is not soullessly insincere but that it's just not meant for you?"
Soulless insincerity is not for me, unless it's entertainingly done. The argument here amounts to whether in this case it was entertainingly done, and that makes it a matter of taste.
I have been responding to insults, but I can understand someone who loves a film getting worked up by someone who hates it...
I gave this film 3/10.
For your entertainment, and for the sake of comparison, here are some more films to which I gave 3/10. Of course, there a plenty more to which I gave 1 and 2...
8MM (1999) 3 6.2
Airport (1970) 3 6.5
Almost Famous (2000) 3 8.0
Always san-chôme no yûhi (2005) 3 7.8
Amante del vampiro, L' (1960) 3 3.3
The Astronaut's Wife (1999) 3 4.8
Battle Cry (1955) 3 6.5
Battle for the Planet of the Apes (1973) 3 4.9
The Battle of the River Plate (1956) 3 6.5
Battlestar Galactica (1978) (TV) 3 6.2
Beverly Hills Cop (1984) 3 7.2
The Big Red One (1980) 3 7.3
Blame It on Rio (1984) 3 5.2
Blue Steel (1934) 3 5.6
The Blues Brothers (1980) 3 7.9
Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2 (2000) 3 4.0
The Born Losers (1967) 3 5.6
Cannibal Holocaust (1980) 3 6.1
Casino Royale (1967) 3 5.1
The Castle (1997) 3 7.4
Colosso di Rodi, Il (1961) 3 5.8
Conquest of the Planet of the Apes (1972) 3 5.7
The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover (1989) 3 7.1
Crocodile Dundee (1986) 3 6.4
Cube (1997) 3 7.5
Dante's Peak (1997) 3 5.6
The Dawn Rider (1935) 3 5.2
The Day After (1983) (TV) 3 6.8
Day of the Woman (1978) 3 5.2
The Deer Hunter (1978) 3 8.2
Dickie Roberts: Former Child Star (2003) 3 5.6
Don't Look Now (1973) 3 7.6
Drácula (1931/I) 3 7.1
Dracula (1931) 3 7.7
Drums Along the Mohawk (1939) 3 7.3
E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982) 3 7.9
The Earth Dies Screaming (1965) 3 5.8
Empire of the Ants (1977) 3 3.1
Enemy at the Gates (2001) 3 7.4
Flavia, la monaca musulmana (1974) 3 5.8
Flying Leathernecks (1951) 3 6.3
For Whom the Bell Tolls (1943) 3 7.1
For Your Eyes Only (1981) 3 6.8
Full Metal Jacket (1987) 3 8.3
Gangs of New York (2002) 3 7.3
The Gauntlet (1977) 3 6.2
Ghost Busters (1984) 3 7.7
Glitter (2001) 3 2.0
Gone in 60 Seconds (1974) 3 6.3
Hell Is for Heroes (1962) 3 7.1
How Green Was My Valley (1941) 3 7.9
In Search of the Castaways (1962) 3 6.3
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) 3 8.3
Jonathan Livingston Seagull (1973) 3 5.1
Jurassic Park (1993) 3 7.7
Kika (1993) 3 6.1
King Kong (2005) 3 7.7
Lawless Range (1935) 3 5.2
The Lickerish Quartet (1970) 3 5.9
The Longest Day (1962) 3 7.8
Looking for Alibrandi (2000) 3 7.4
Maschera del demonio, La (1960) 3 7.5
Meteor (1979) 3 4.6
The Missouri Breaks (1976) 3 6.3
Moonraker (1979) 3 6.1
Moulin Rouge! (2001) 3 7.7
The Mummy's Curse (1944) 3 5.2
The Mummy's Hand (1940) 3 6.0
The Mummy's Tomb (1942) 3 5.3
Murders in the Rue Morgue (1932) 3 6.3
Ned Kelly (2003) 3 6.3
Never Say Never Again (1983) 3 6.0
Never So Few (1959) 3 5.8
Octopussy (1983) 3 6.5
Perché quelle strane gocce di sangue sul corpo di Jennifer? (1972) 3 6.7
The Pianist (2002) 3 8.5
Piranha (1978) 3 5.6
Profondo rosso (1975) 3 7.8
The Razor's Edge (1946) 3 7.5
The Royal Tenenbaums (2001) 3 7.6
Seven Sinners (1940) 3 6.8
Shakespeare in Love (1998) 3 7.4
Shane (1953) 3 7.7
Ships with Wings (1942) 3 4.9
Sin City (2005) 3 8.4
Stardust (1974) 3 6.9
Strage dei vampiri, La (1962) 3 4.5
Sudden Impact (1983) 3 6.3
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (2003) 3 6.0
They Who Dare (1954) 3 5.6
To the Shores of Tripoli (1942) 3 5.8
Top Gun (1986) 3 6.5
The Towering Inferno (1974) 3 6.7
Triumph des Willens (1935) 3 7.9
TRON (1982) 3 6.5
The Valley of Gwangi (1969) 3 5.9
Velvet Goldmine (1998) 3 6.6
What's Up, Tiger Lily? (1966) 3 6.1
The Young Lions (1958) 3 7.3
Yu pu tuan zhi: Tou qing bao jian (1992) 3 5.9
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peerah
16 years ago
Kazuo_Kiriyama, I don't think you have to keep this argument going. As a person who sentimentally "love" this movie, I don't think I need a reason for loving every minute of it. I don't need we really need to show how smart or sophisticated we are in order to appreciate a movie. I also appreciate your trying to argue with this omoo22 person in a very objective and academic way, showing relevant example and comparisons. But it seems to me that we did not get the same quality of response from him/her, except for some unfounded expression of hatred.
Dear omoo22, I see that you seem to be really proud of yourself grading all those movies. But if you want to get all serious about evaluating the quality of any work of art, you'll have to do it more objectively. Remember this, "Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." And I'm not saying that I have data for everything I talk about, but pretty please, don't argue the facts with your unfiltered emotion. It's not doing you any good.
And please forgive my English writing.
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omoo22
16 years ago
Hi peerah;
Of course, we're all just people with opinions, aren't we? You don't need "a reason for loving every minute of it" any more than I need to provide "data" or "objectivity" to support my disliking of it. My original comments were as specific as I need be, since they express my reaction to the film. Since then, the only thing about which I've "argued" is how to politely address people with differing opinions from your own...
"Sentimentally loving" the film is fine, but you can't then have it both ways by claiming any "objective and academic" basis for your opinion.
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BruklinBridge
15 years ago
omoo22, to believe that "soulless insincerity" best describes this movie that has accumulated so much praise and so many awards says more about your lack of understanding of Japanese culture than anything else.
Perhaps there was a lot that was lost in translation. The target audience was not the world, and certainly not western civilization. Much of what you might not have thought was valid reaction to a situation or over dramatized or even overacted would not be considered so in Japan.
So ultimately, your conclusion that this was soulless insincerity would be like saying, "Chinese people speak gibberish" merely because you don't understand Chinese.
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omoo22
15 years ago
So you'd say "yes" to the last question posed in my original post?
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15 years ago
[deleted]
omoo22
15 years ago
Facile personal comments noted. My health's not too bad thanks, how's yours?
If you watch a lot of movies you have to accept that you're going to see some you don't like. Indeed, disliking films is an intrinsic (and often enjoyable) part of the overall movie watching experience.
You also have to accept that people are not going to agree on which movies they like and dislike, and try not to get too offended when someone expresses an opinion you don't share.
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15 years ago
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omoo22
15 years ago
Disliking this movie means not "appreciating or enjoying any movie at all"?
It would be too obvious to post a list of movies that I scored highly, so here's a list of ones to which I gave lowest ratings of 1 and 2 (lower than "Always..."!) - my "55 Worst Movies Of All Time", if you will.
And some of these are the most enjoyable movies you'll ever see, especially the 1s...
Ape (1976) 1 2.3
Battlefield Earth: A Saga of the Year 3000 (2000) 1 2.3
The Beast That Killed Women (1965) 1 2.1
Billy Jack (1971) 1 5.7
Billy Jack Goes to Washington (1977) 1 4.4
Boxing Helena (1993) 1 3.9
Color of Night (1994) 1 4.7
Eegah (1962) 1 2.6
Glen or Glenda (1953) 1 3.5
Nuda per Satana (1974) 1 4.2
Once Before I Die (1966) 1 4.2
Plan 9 from Outer Space (1959) 1 3.5
Robot Monster (1953) 1 2.9
Sextette (1978) 1 2.3
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1978) 1 3.4
Showgirls (1995) 1 3.9
The Swarm (1978) 1 3.8
The Trial of Billy Jack (1974) 1 4.2
Under the Tuscan Sun (2003) 1 6.7
5 tombe per un medium (1965) 2 5.6
Airport 1975 (1974) 2 5.2
Beneath the Planet of the Apes (1970) 2 6.0
Boia scarlatto, Il (1965) 2 4.6
Campus Confidential (2005) (TV) 2 4.6
Casa dell'esorcismo, La (1973) 2 6.0
Children of the Damned (1963) 2 5.8
The Comeback (1978) 2 5.1
The Conqueror (1956) 2 3.1
The Crow (1994) 2 7.5
Cube 2: Hypercube (2002) (V) 2 5.6
Deep Impact (1998) 2 5.9
Desperate Hours (1990) 2 5.2
The Devil Rides Out (1968) 2 7.2
Eyes Wide Shut (1999) 2 7.1
Frogs (1972) 2 3.7
The Horror of Party Beach (1964) 2 2.7
House on Haunted Hill (1999) 2 5.2
Human Nature (2001) 2 6.2
Indecent Proposal (1993) 2 5.3
The Last House on the Left (1972) 2 5.8
Nude per l'assassino (1975) 2 5.4
The Perfect Storm (2000) 2 6.2
The Pink Panther (1963) 2 7.2
The Prince of Tides (1991) 2 6.3
Salò o le 120 giornate di Sodoma (1975) 2 6.2
Sbarco di Anzio, Lo (1968) 2 5.8
Tentacoli (1977) 2 2.7
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974) 2 7.5
Thriller - en grym film (1974) 2 6.5
The Toxic Avenger (1984) 2 5.7
Ultima preda del vampiro, L' (1962) 2 4.7
Vacances de Monsieur Hulot, Les (1953) 2 7.6
Van Helsing (2004) 2 5.5
Wings Over the Pacific (1943) 2 4.5
Xing xing wang (1977) 2 5.2
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15 years ago
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omoo22
15 years ago
Thanks for copying and pasting that. However, the capitals are still not big enough; could you try it again, in a larger font perhaps?
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BruklinBridge
15 years ago
That last question was an abuse of the written word, but I would disagree that the film, the depiction of "rebirth" in the film, or the actual rebuilding of tokyo was "soulless" in any way.
I don't know what you need to feel soul. Maybe it's Thumper's heartwarming giggle, or Louie showing his tender side in Taxi. Maybe you listened to Seasons In The Sun too many times and you're burnt out. Who knows. But what's for sure is you've missed out on part of this movie.
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