At jack's medal ceremony.
It seemed he was a little drunk and sarcastic about Jack getting a medal. Or was the sarcasm supposed to be directed at the administration?
Of course I'm gonna TELL you the right thing to DO.... I'M A HYPOCRITE!!!!
me too, wasn't he the one that was most ecstatic about Jack getting released from the soviet gulag in hungary? and did Jack really deserve that medal? or was it an attempt my leo to keep him in the company? I suspect the latter but Jack didn't tell harvey he wanted to quit. I think it was just harvey being a drunk bastard and not knowing what he is doing.
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I don't know, it made sense while I was watching it. Sorcerer had wanted to give Jack air cover, and go all the way with the Cuban invasion, right? So when Jack made those politically embarrassing statements (about the CIA, about the U.S. government) at the ceremony, most people just kept a polite silence, but Sorcerer clapped and congratulated Jack for being a man.
What all else was on Sorcerer's mind? Maybe the fact that his own mission to assassinate Castro had failed, maybe his rivalry with Mother, and maybe the knowledge that Mother was obviously right about the mole "Sasha" and that that's why all these plans had failed miserably. So maybe Sorcerer has a lot of guilt that he didn't listen to Mother about the mole, and all of these lives were thus lost.
Please for God's sake fix the spelling in your subject line.
Personally, I think Sorcerer started to lose it, emotionally. He had a drink in his hand, he was the only one of the group who seemed to act a bit out of control, the rest of the crowd stayed silent. I got the impression that Sorcerer was just losing it. It was rather depressing, as if the writers wanted the audience to see how the agency failures, especially the Bay of Pigs had affected case officers of this era. Frank Wisner ended up killing himself, and the Sorcerer character, who probably had a stronger emotional dispostion, seemed to bury his pain in alcohol. But the way he applauded Jack, just seemed a bit disturbing. My 2 cents anyway
Agreed that he was losing it because of guilt. Agreed that Wisner is a good example, although personally I wish that people would put a spoiler notice when they mention Wisner's fate, because we don't know that yet, and it's something that hours 5 and 6 may portray. (This is the second time on this board I've read his fate, so to me it's letting the cat out of the bag too soon. Perhaps you could re-word it somehow to make it not a spoiler?)
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Sorry, but this is not fiction..Frank Wisner was a real person, and anyone who has even a passing interest in CIA history will know that he killed himself. I did not reveal the ending of Harry Potter.
I know this is not fiction. Most of us who are watching this did not read the book, and so do not know the ending, nor do we want it spoiled (hence the spoiler warnings on many of these threads).
However, your choice; it was a simple request and I understand if you're not willing to unspoil a possible spoiler.
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Yeah, you'll get over it...when you start reading some books for a change, and learn history the real way..instead of putting too much stock in a made for tv movie. By the way, you stated that "most of us who are watching this did not read the book". Thats right Einstein, thats because there is not just ONE BOOK on this subject. Have you tried going to a library? It may do you some good, while you put down that remote control and read a book for a change. Then, maybe you wont be so concerned about spoilers, and get some real history in your head.
Why don't you go read some books instead of posting on a movie forum. Just becasue something is based on real events doesn't make it OK to ruin someone's entertainment.
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There is a difference between history and entertainment..If you had an education, you probably would know what the difference was. If you put your remote control down, and actually used your brain, you probably would know what I am talking about
Wow, what an incredibly over the top, needlessly rude, and downright silly remark. You're educated because you have an obsession and read books on the CIA? You dispute the prior statement that most people watching this have not read the book, when I'm fairly sure its a safe bet that one night's viewership of an average made for TV program like this is larger than the print run of the book its based on. Sure there are other books, but can't we have a legitimate interest, maybe even an intelligent one, without reading book after book on the topic. Maybe we have lives. Maybe we have jobs - maybe even the kind we went to grad school for and get paid and everything. Get off your high horse. A guy on a movie web-board asked you nicely not to spoil an ending, and just because you think you're so smart for knowing the real life analog, you come out swinging. Sorry your fantasy of never making it into the CIA never came true. Get over it.
shareNo, I dont think I'm educated because I read books on the subject. I think I am educated because I hold Phd in East Asian Studies. No, I never had a fantasy about getting into the CIA because I spent already 23 years working in Military Intelligence. As for getting off my high horse..I really dont need to buddy. Any fool (such as yourself) that would even bother about someone who does not want to *spoil* an ending for a semi historical piece of work really needs to read a few books. By the way, why dont you ask me not to *spoil* the ending of JFK...or did you not know that he was killed? Or while your at it, why dont you ask me not to spoil the end of the movie Patton..or let me guess, you did not know how World War II ended? Wow you went to graduate school and actually get paid?? You must be very proud.
shareThanks for the CV.
If you think that the death of Wis is on par with the assassination of JFK or the ending of WWII, you're mistaken. And, if you think anyone with a passing interest in the CIA would know of what YOU speak, well, the evidence clearly points to the contrary. Plenty of people on here obviously have such a passing interest, and are asking questions nonetheless. For you to come out swinging like a jerk does nothing but, well, make you look like a jerk.
Thanks for playing.
Looking like a jerk?? ahhh..now you resort to name calling? I guess thats all you have left, eh? First, it was the "fantasy" about CIA emplyoment, then, it was "getting a life". Now that I made a practical point about actually doing something as foreign like READING about history, now you resort to name calling. How sweet of you. Hey, I'll let you in a secret, Jason Bourne is played by an actor called Matt Damon..Oops! Im sorry.. didnt mean to *spoil* reality for you.
Actually pal, you're the one that started flinging insults when you accused others of lacking an education because they may have read different books than you. No one ever knocked reading books. Is it possible for me to enjoy some film, and some books, even if the two don't overlap? Whatever... I'm letting this go now. I invite you to do the same. Actually, go ahead and get the last word I'm sure you're dying to get. I'll move on.
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Again, you just dont seem to get it.. HISTORICAL BOOKS HAVE NO SPOILERS. My goodness, is that concept so hard for your to understand. You can not RUIN A HISTORICAL ENDING. Now, if I were to reveal the ending for a work of fiction, yes, then its my fault. You just do not seem to understand the concept of this. There are no *SPOILER ENDINGS* for history. Oh yeah, if you recall, YOUR the one who started fighting with ME. I had no problems with other people on this board..you came out at me, and apparently, I put you in your place. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, or get burned like you just did.
Bored. Not burned.
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Wow, for a guy thats bored, you seem to really follow what I have to say. Oh I forgot, you have a Masters degree.hehe
and a PhD requires a few years of extra BSing through school. Higher education=/= smarter. Trust me, got me a DDS.
shareIn case you aren't sure, a DDS makes you a REAL doctor.
shareYou're so intelligent you can't differentiate from someone implying you're a "jerk" to actually calling you one. Idiot. (that's me calling you an "idiot", see the difference?)
-Nam
I am on the road less traveled...
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I read most books online. I noticed you made this comment in 2007 but I was reading books online then, too.
-Nam
I am on the road less traveled...
Though somewhat inebriated and inappropriate, I thought The Sorcerer was trying to save face for Jack...given Jack's statements, The Company fell silent...ordinarily, when a member receives a medal, loud clapping would ensue...I think he was showing support for Jack...that he understood his disgust and disappointment with the inaction of the US government on behalf of Cuban rebels...one thing about The Sorcerer, love him or hate him, what you see is what you get...he's a powerful personality...doesn't put on airs for anyone...but he truly liked his apprentice and tried to save the moment for him...could be off base, but that's how I saw it.
shareI just think he was peeved about recent events. It was all weighing heavily on his mind. I've seen people break under strain. I think it was a very under-developed scene, though. The fact that we're all wondering at it makes me question the way in which they edited this show.
Also, I think Mr. PhD is much too educated for this forum. He should probably consider getting into some government think tank. I mean... 23 years in intel, a PhD, AND all this tact? I'm floored that you would waste your time posting on this board.
I'm weighing the interest I have in reading posts written by people with PhDs and people who don't... and I'm finding the latter preferable. I'm as surprised as the next poster.
Thanks for your career advice. First of all, just to clarify, I was a an elisted Army solider for 6 years as a Chinese Mandarin linguist. I got out, finished my Bachelor's and my PhD in East Asian Studies, then went back into the Army as a 351L, Warrant Officer for 17 more years. As for wasting my time on this board...This is the only movie I have posted responses on. A good friend of mine worked on this production as a technical advisor. Also, I knew many CIA offices of that generation, guys and gals who joined the CIA back in the 1950's. I spent some time with David Whipple before he passed on several years back. He joined the Agency back in the early 1950's and was a friend of the real James Angleton. sights0d, you said I should get into a government think tank, how do you know that I don't work for the government? Too much educated for this forum? Yeah, I thought I owed it to my friend who worked on this production to come to this forum to see what people have to say about this, because it covered a very important part in our nation's history. The CIA years from 1951-1992, untill the collapse of the Soviet Union were the life of the Agency itself. You say your floored that I am wasting my time on this board? Hey, some moron out there personnaly attacks me, Im not going to sit back. You dont know me well enough to say if I am wasting my time.
You know? This started out as an interesting thread, with someone wondering what was going on with Sorcerer at Jack's medal ceremony. Then the children among us started a food fight over who's the smartest here. Let me get us back on track, if the children will stop fighting long enough to let me.
Let's take the medal ceremony at face value. I think Toritti was letting everybody know how frustrated he was that someone leaked Jack's presence and identity to the communists.
We can argue whether he was really drunk or not. Everybody knows Toritti drinks a lot, and he gets away with it because he's one of the agency's best station chiefs. So he may have used a visible drink as a prop so he could get away with venting the way he did.
I never thought about the possibility that he could be faking being drunk. Could be, I guess. He certainly whooped and hollered like a very drunk man at the end of the ceremony though. But that could have been part of the show.
I had thought it was more of his GUILT over not taking Angleton seriously about the mole, and that he really was drunk.
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I personally attacked you? Actually, I called you out for personally attacking everyone else. And now I'm a moron? I thought I had a Masters. Oh wait, I never actually said that, yet you assumed (and were incorrect). See, its that kind of jumping to conclusions by military intelligence that gets us in trouble. If you care (and I can't imagine you would or should), I have a higher degree than that, and lots of experience as well, but unlike you, I'll spare everyone my CV.
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"its that kind of jumping to comlusions by military intelligence that gets un in trouble" IF YOU HAVE NEVER SERVED in the military, then don't comment on military intelligence. It really shows disrespect for the military men and women who are serving. Its very easy to be an armchair quarterback.
"IF YOU HAVE NEVER SERVED in the military, then don't comment on military intelligence. It really shows disrespect for the military men and women who are serving. Its very easy to be an armchair quarterback."
I've always wondered about "patriots" who believe that their service somehow gives them the power to infringe upon the freedom of speech belonging to others. Does that make actual philosophical sense? It would seem that your comment is an order. I'm wondering where you gained the authority to issue such an order.
Instead, I'll just say this: some people aren't suited for particular activities. I, for example, have a tough time watching sports. I get all stressed and have to change the channel until the end is near. It's the only time I really get stressed. You, however, seem to get stressed out when debating on the internet. Perhaps you should calm down, sit back, relax, and polish your diploma case. Maybe read a book. Come back when you don't feel that you can or need to control the communications of others.
Beyond all of that and getting back to the original topic of this thread, I'd say I agree with an earlier poster's comment that Sorcerer's actions were not only caused by his inebriation but also by his actual gratitude for what Jack actually did. No one else was applauding, so maybe he was trying to shame them for their reaction to Jack's failed but well meaning attempt.
Wow, and I didn't even start anything with you sights0d, and here you are attacking me.
Hey sights0d..thats great! You are so wise and insightful. I wish you really knew how much your opinions actually mean to me. Oh wait..I'll tell you, do you hear that flushing sound?? yeah..thats your insightful bull**** being swept away in my toilet.
Oh dear. I meant it to be helpful. I do a lot of online business and communication. I've never understood why people engage in these self-destructive behaviors. There has to be an interesting psychological study there...
Anyway, I had a conversation with a friend about this topic at lunch today and he said that there was a lot of material cut out of the miniseries which would probably have developed that scene a lot better. I'm not sure where he got that information, but I'm wondering if that factors in to why there were quite a few negative reviews.
I am impressed by your pearls of wisdom obviously crafted through 23 years of military service and higher education. One would think that with that much life experience a person would've developed a little more restraint than to be provoked by some anonymous person on a forum about a TV show.
And, that wet puddle on the floor is your toilet backing up with the S--T that I'm flinging your way.
:Shaka sign:
:Shaka sign?? oh good god, another internet weirdo.. and your talking about pearls of wisdom? funny
share":Shaka sign?? oh good god, another internet weirdo.. and your talking about pearls of wisdom? funny "
You do know that there's a difference between "your" and "you're," right Doc?
He doesn't even know the difference between an implied insult to an actual one. How would he know anything else?
-Nam
I am on the road less traveled...
@ krishnansteve
Enjoyed your perspective. ...
I liked the way they did the scene. We watch James Bond and all the other spies swill a bottle of bourbon with little or no effect, but not this time. We see a guy have too much to drink and make a fool out of himself.
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