Wow. I'm trying to figure out if you are just young and misinformed, or actually deranged. For charity's sake I'll assume the former.
"savagery of Hamas"
What came first? The Occupier or the resister?
The Murderer or the Avenger?
Since you asked, who has a longer history in Jeruslem, Arabs or Jews? Who conquered Palestine and took it by force before the Crusades? The fact is that no group of people alive today has a longer continuous history in Palestine than the Jews, and no amount of perpetuating PLO myths about "occupiers" and "resisters" can change that.
And by the way, if you think the establishment of the modern Jewish state of Israel is such a crime, then you must also be for the destruction of the modern Muslim state of Pakistan. No? I didn't think so. But you can't have it both ways.
"brutality against minorities"
There's more brutality against Muslim in western countries than there is against the Non-Muslims in the Muslim world.
That's just a lie. I'd tell you to back that up with some data, but I know you can't.
My own uncle got attacked in America, the attacers nearly killed him with baseball bats, he needed four surgeries to survive. The doctors needed to put metal plates into his skull and nose area.
What happened to your uncle is tragic and a shame, but it is an isolated, anecdotal experience and the exception by a wide margin.
This shows that not only has the western propaganda brainwashed the older people in the west, but also the kids and filled their hearts with hate.
It shows nothing of the kind. You are using your own individual experience to tar an entire culture, without any supporting data. That is bigotry, pal.
If Islam orders Muslims to oppress and kill Non-Muslims, then how come Non-Muslims have lived freely in the Middle East for last 1400 years?
If you can call dhimmitude an example of living "freely" then you are truly a lost cause.
"subjugation of women"
Complete lie. If you're talking about the the Hijab system, there's a strong logic and a good reason for that which people like you won't understand. Just ask any Muslim woman, specially those women who converted to Islam, and they will tell you that they are perfectly satisfied with the reasons for Hijab, there are many such Muslim women on imdb boards, as well as on the chat programmes, you can ask anyone of them.
A 7th century tribal practice of hiding women because men cannot be expected to control their sexual impulses may seem logical to you, but not to any one living in the modern world.
And as far as other rights are concerned, Islam is the only religion which gives most rights to the women. Women in the west west weren't even allowed to inherit untill about a hundred or two hundred years back. Islam gave such rights to women 1400 years ago.
You really are living in a fantasy world. Islamic law allows men to have four wives, and have sex with slave girls (Qur’an 4:3), and as for inheritance, it rules that sons inherit twice that of a daughter (4:11). It also commands husbands to beat their disobedient wives (4:34). Look up the definition of
idribhunna and then cross reference it in the Qur’an.
Islam is not the religion which says that humanity is born in sin and it's because of women. Islam does not say that pregnancy is a punishment and a degrading thing for women.
Christianity doesn’t teach any of that malarkey about women either, if that’s what you meant to imply. There have been dark periods in the church when bad doctrine was taught, but they had nothing to do with the core teachings.
Islam does not teach original sin, no. Christianity teaches that mankind cannot attain the kingdom of God without the grace of Christ -- no human being can do it on their own. Islam, on the other hand, teaches that man can earn his way to heaven by behaving in ways that please Allah. It thereby demands the spread of Islam on earth, and that is what makes it a political ideology, where Christianity is not.
If Islam really degrades women, then how come 60 percent of those who convert to Islam, are women?
Even if that figure is true, it’s a totally illogical argument and unworthy of reply.
"demonization of Jews"
Not the demonization of Jews. The real jews are respected by Muslims and are honored by their religion. The Muslims are only against what the Zionists do.
Liar. Or else I suppose the Qur’an is referring to Zionists in al-Maada verse 82 which says: “Indeed you will find that of all mankind, those with the strongest hatred of the believers are the Jews and the pagans”;
Or in 2:65, which describes Allah turning Jews into apes: “And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: “Be apes—despised and hated by all”;
Or in 7:166, and 5:60, which also describe Jews as apes and pigs?;
Or in 2:61: “And abasement and poverty were pitched upon them, and they were laden with the burden of God's anger;that, because they had disbelieved the signs of God and slain the Prophets unrightfully; that, because they disobeyed, and were transgressors.”
And I suppose Muhammad was only talking about Zionists in Bukhari 4.52.177: “The Hour will not arrive until you fight the Jews, and the rock and the tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’” (which is even a part of the Hamas charter);
And in Bukhari 1.1.6: “Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.”
Christ, I could go on forever, but why? Jew-hatred has been a cornerstone of Islamic thinking since 632 AD. And pointing the finger at others who have also oppressed Jews is no excuse.
"child marriages in Iran and Afghanistan"
It all depends on where on earth do you live. Because in some parts of the earth, children reach the age of puberty much faster than the other. That's why different countries have different ages of consent.
This is the most repugnant explanation for this you could possibly offer, and in the eyes of anyone with a conscience, you just lost the debate.
Muslim girls across the Arab world are ready for marriage at age 7, according to you? Then how do you explain Egyptian “honeymoon centers” which are built on the outskirts of communities “so that the screams of the brides will not be heard” as Jan Goodwin writes in
Price of Honor? After all, if they're ready for marriage, what are they screaming about?
Goodwin also observed that in Iran: “In villages where child marriage is most common, doctors don’t even see the girl ... They just take the family’s word that she is physically mature enough to marry. Consequently, we have had very young girls badly injured when they have had what amounts to forced intercourse. Infection sets in and they have died. Only with girls under seven did the Ayatollah say that sex was forbidden.”
A report in Time magazine found that two-thirds of second grade girls in Afghanistan and Pakistan “were either married or betrothed.” Do you really think that’s defensible?
Islam is a belief system, not a nationality, you must agree. Islamic tradition states “there are no nations in Islam” only the
ummah of the Dar al-Islam (House of Submission), and the
kaffir of the Dar al-Harb (House of War). So Muslims, no matter what country they live in, all are beholden to Allah's law, yes? Then explain why every school of Islamic jurisprudence maintains that the marriageable age for girls is 9 years old, in keeping with the age of Aisha when she was married by Muhammad?
It’s not territorial, or even cultural. It’s Islamic. And if you can justify adult men marrying nine year old girls, you are sick.
"The West didn't create this environment"
It wasn't the west? Oh my God, why didn't you tell us before? Who is it then? Who has been oppressing us for last 300 years? Who else was it?
Stop trying to fool people. The obvious truth is out there.
This is so far beyond stupid there’s no response. Poor oppressed Muslims. Everything is big, bad America’s fault.
Cry baby. Maybe if more Muslims were interested in getting their act together and taking responsibility for their governments than blaming all their problems on Jews and Christians, the middle east wouldn’t be such a wasteland of poverty and degradation.
"no matter what Noam Chomsky says."
You think I'm trying to expose the sins of the west because I'm a follower of Chomsky? I swear to God I didn't even know this guy untill I read his name in your post. I am a person with and open mind, open eyes and open ears. Not like you. You're a person with a closed mind and closed eyes, who only knows what he hears from other people.
No, you are someone who talks a lot but never says anything. All you have is empty proclamations, insults, and baseless statements. You can’t even back up your charges with data. You’re a fool.
“All of the worst, most barabaric aspects of life in the Muslim world receive sanction and authority directly from the Sunnah and the Qur'an.” Could you please explain those things? and the effects of those things please? And don't come up with the same old stereotypical claims against Islam.
Done. See above.
"Does this mean that all Muslims are brutal, repressive people? Of course not."
This is hypocrisy. For getting praise from readers.
Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s hypocricy.
”But build a society with the shariah as a guiding principle, and you see what you get." Exactly, None of the Muslim countries have Sharia laws imposed. Saudia Arabia is the one with most Sharia laws, and it is a clean society.
Shari’ah is a cornerstone of Islamic theology. If you don’t believe me, read EVERY ISLAMIC TREATISE EVER WRITTEN. Read the Qur’an. And if you think a backward culture that beheads homosexuals and hangs women who have committed no crime but bring rape charges without four male witnesses qualifies as “clean” then I hope you are on the FBI’s watch list.
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alikhawar
17 years ago
This is a reply to the post of Cronenfly. It's too long so I have devided it into two parts.
This is Part1
Before I give the reply to the post of Cronenfly, I want to make it very clear that the Muslims never ever lie about their religion. Because they believe that if they do(even for good), then they will be punished by God. For changing the original message of God. So it is a big sin.
Another thing I want to make clear is that, whenever God sent a messenger in this world, there was opposition. And most of the time, there were attempts of assisnations of those messengers. So almost all these messengers had to fight in order to survive. And there are verses in every religious scripture, which talk about fighting. Sometimes against particular groups, sometimes against a whole nation. Same was the case with Islam. There were more than 360 Arabian tribes, as well as the Persians, Syrians, Byzentinians, Indians and many others who were against the Muslims, and attacked them regularly. But now that those groups are not there anymore, all those verses in the Quran, talking about those groups are void. But unfortunately the enemies of Islam take those verses, twist them, and use them for the demonization of Islam. If they claim that they don't do it for the demonization of Islam, then they should first demonize their own religions.
One more thing I'd like to tell is that, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, and the Muslims believe in the message of all the Abrahamic messengers, including Moses and Jesus. Muslims even follow the commandments strictly, which alot of the Jews and Christians don't do. And the message of Islam as a whole, is not very different from Judaism and Christianity, because Muslims believe that Islam is the continuation of the message brought by Moses and Jesus.
Now the reply to Cronenfly's post.
"Wow. I'm trying to figure out if you are just young and misinformed, or actually deranged. For charity's sake I'll assume the former."
And I'm trying to figure out what you really are. Whether you are misinformed, or just another person who's spreading propaganda about Islam. I think you are both. First misinformed, then the other.
One thing I'd like to tell you to do. All the verse references which you have given, really are there. But I'm asking you to also write 20 verses which come before those, and 20 verses which come after those. That will clear things up. I don't think you're going to do that because it's going to hurt youre cause which is the demonization of Islam. Your credibility will be destroyed. What you have done in your post is that, you've taken words out from in between the Quranic verses, and you've twisted their meanings. Which is exactly what the anti-Islamists do for propanda. Let me tell you, if it's only about picking out words from scriptures, then I can also make your religion look like the worst in the universe. Even if you're an athiest, I can make you look like the worst person on earth. But I'm not going to demonize any religion because I'm not a liar or someone who's misinformed.
"who has a longer history in Jeruslem, Arabs or Jews"
A really stupid arguement. If it is about having the longer history, then in today's USA, can those people who are the natives of that land(those who lived there before the arrival of white Europeons), make a grand alliance, and kick the Whites and other people out of the country? destroy their houses and property, occupy their estate? just because they have the longer history in that land? Or in Australia, can those native blacks kick out the whites and destroy their property and estate just because they have a longer history? Will you support those actions? Will you say that they have the right to do so?
"Who conquered Palestine and took it by force before the Crusades? "
Read the history. Palestine was conquered peacefully. The Christians handed it over to the Caliph Umar, on the condition that the jews would never ever be allowed to enter there.
"then you must also be for the destruction of the modern Muslim state of Pakistan."
The situation of Pakistan is different. First of all, when India was invaded by the British colonialists, Muslims and Hindus had already lived together like brothers for more than a thousand years there. The Non-Muslims had full religious freedom during the Muslim rule. In the late days, there were some leaders who put restrictions over religous activities, but as a whole, they had religious freedom. Infact, Muslim conquest of India was more like a blessing in disguise for the people. Most of the people were suffering because of the caste system. When the Muslims invaded India, they were very kind to the common people. It was something which the locals hadn't expected. Specially the people from the lower castes. But for the first time, they were treated like humans. And the locals even started to make the statues and idols of Muhammad Bin Qasim(the 17 year old general who conquered India) and worship them. Some of them are even present today.
And then after the British invasion, both Muslims and Hindus fought against the British invasion side by side. It wasn't untill the first quarter of the 20th century that the Muslims and Hindus became divided. It was done by the British as a tactic. They had a policy of Divide and Rule. The British took some measures which put the Muslims under alot of pressure and threats. It was then that they asked for their own government in the Muslim population areas. And then Pakistan came into being.
"I'd tell you to back that up with some data, but I know you can't."
I don't need to go very far. My own house maid is a Christian, and I give her as much respect as I giver to my mother. Her children are friends of mine. I even attended the marriages of some of her kids in the church. My own neighbourhood is full of Christians. They are working on very high posts in the government departments.
"You are using your own individual experience to tar an entire culture"
Oh no, These days, specially in America and Europe, Muslims are attacked so much. And the sikhs are the best witnesses of that because many times, the attacker take Sikhs for Muslims since they also wear a turban and keep a beard. Specially in areas like Scotland and USA, alot of Muslims are suffering. Most of the times, even the citizen Musilms are arrested without any charge and are never given their rights. And kids are bullied at school for being Muslims. The Muslims are now living there under constant fear, both from the governments and the people.
"If you can call dhimmitude an example of living "freely" then you are truly a lost cause."
If the goverments of those countries hated them so much, then all those Non-Muslims wouldn've been annihilated easily. And the places of worship would've been destroyed. Muslims had the power to do so. So how come all of them are still there? How come there are 14 million of those Christians in the Middle East, whose generations have never left Christianity since the start?
"A 7th century tribal practice of hiding women because men cannot be expected to control their sexual impulses may seem logical to you, but not to any one living in the modern world. "
Ok, surely you have a little idea about the purpose of Hijab(Which is saving women from molestation). You don't buy it, fine. Now let's compare the statisitcs of Rape in USA, to those in Saudi Arabia(where women wear Hijab). In USA, hundreds of thousands of women get raped every year. The average statistics are between 150000, to 250000. A rape takes place every two and a half minutes or even after a few seconds. And this is only the reported cases. Only 16 percent of the rape cases are reported. If you add up the un-reported cases, then the number will be in millions. Now let's compare it to the rate of Saudi Arabia where they follow the Sharia. The rape rate is less than a hundered per year. So which system works better? Even if you want to add up few numbers by yourself into the Saudi rape rate, there is no way it's going to come anyway near the American rate.
The Hijab really does work. I'll give you an example. If there are two identical twin sisters both equally beautiful. They are walking down the street. One is wearing the Islamic Hijab with the whole body and head covered. And the other one is wearing a small top and a mini skirt. And there's a hooligan there waiting for a catch. Which girl will he look at first and tease? Or even a rapist. Who will he look at first?
One thing I want to make clear is that, before talking about Hijab for women, Islam talks about Hijab for men. Although they are only ordered to cover up their bodies, not heads. And they are also ordered to lower their gaze whenever they see a woman and some sexual thought comes into their minds. So it works with the co-operation of both sexes. This is what makes a Muslim society, a clean one.
Women are only ordered to cover their bodies and heads. Most other religious scriptures talk about Hijab too. Have you ever thought about why the Christian Nuns dress the way they do? That's because such dressing is ordered by Christianity. Infact, Christianity goes one step ahead and says that "The women who does not cover her head, her head must be shaved. The Burqas you see today were not adopted by Musilm women untill the Musilms entered Byzentine. It was a local Byzentinian custom. The dresses similar to the Burqa which the Arab women wore, were many times worn for protection of faces from the burning heat of the deserts. This is the ideal way dressing for Muslim women.
http://img167.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=th_96010_muslim_girls_122_452lo.jpg
http://img148.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=96093_muslim_girl_2_122_596lo.jpg
"You really are living in a fantasy world. Islamic law allows men to have four wives"
Islam is the only religion which orders men to marry ONLY ONE. But if they can do justice between their women, THEN they are allowed to marry more than one, but maximum four. Quran again says that it would be very hard for you to do justice, so it is ideal that you marry only one. The requirements of justice are so difficult, that most men can only afford to marry once anyway. In pre-Islamic Arabia there was no marriage limit for men. Some people had ten wives, some had fifty wives, some even had hundred wives. You have to realize that back in those days people were marrying and leaving women while they were on their way to trade journeys. Islam put a limit to it, maximum four. But it's hard to do justice, so only one is ideal. And even the permission for having four wives has some very good reasons. Which I can explain if you want.
"and have sex with slave girls (Qur’an 4:3)"
Write 20 verses before this one. What you wrote is a huge lie. What this particular Surah talks about is the rights of women, and this particualr verse doesn't talk about sex with slave girls. Infact there is no concept of slavery in Islam. Islam destroyed slavery which was a huge business in Arabia. Islam freed all the slaves(ever heard of Bilal who is the best example?). In the early days of Islam, it was very hard to end the slavery business all of a sudden. Specially it was hard to convince new converts for freeing slaves. The freedom of all the slaves had to be a slow process just like leaving wine and fornication. So in the early days, alot of verses were revealed about the treatment of slaves. Those verses ordered Muslims specially the new ones, to treat their slaves like brothers and never to be harsh on them. Those verses became void as soon as all the slaves were freed. And that was hundreds of years ago. But today people like Cronenfly take words from those verses and claim that Islam condones slavery.
What this verse says is that, Muslims are allowed to MARRY the female captives of war if they are noble women. It only talks about marriage, not sex. Because sex without marriage is not allowed in Islam nor in many other religion. But the verses regarding the captives of war were only meant for that time, not today.
"and as for inheritance, it rules that sons inherit twice that of a daughter (4:11)."
Yes, Islam does say that. Because the daughter is supposed to end up getting married and getting settled with her husband. And then the husband is responsible for the wife's financial needs. But the Son not only has to keep a little for himself, but he also has to further divide it between other people. It's a lengthy subject. I've tried to make this easy as possible for you. I hope you'd understand now.
"It also commands husbands to beat their disobedient wives (4:34). Look up the definition of idribhunna and then cross reference it in the Qur’an"
Yes it says that. But again you've twisted the meaning. This Surah is re-mentioning briefly, the conditions allowed for divorce, for both men and women. The conditions are made much more hard for men, but very easy for women. Both men and women are responsible for making their family a success. But if the wife is insolent and does not co-operate. Man has to first work very hard to save his marriage. He has to work through different stages. And those stages are mentioned in that Sura, like, Not talking to the wife, Then leaving the bed etc. And still if the wife doesn't get things right, then the last stage one light hit on any part of the body but the face. The meaning of the verse was further described by the Prophet himself. He said that "the hit should only hurt as much as a thoothstick(Miswaak) does". And the toothstick only weighs as much as a regular toothbrush, sometimes even less. So really it's only about a feather touch of a hit. This part is only done to issue the final warning to the wife. And the Arabic word mentioned there is Yadribuhunna. It comes from the word Darab, or Zarab(In some languages). It means hitting at one place. It doesn't mean beating someone to death. Anyway, this last stage is mentioned as the most extreme in Islam. Although just one light hit is allowed. So even after going through all these stages, if the wife doesn't co-operate, then the man can divorce her.
On the other hand, it's very easy for women to divorce their husbands. They don't have to go through stages. Even if they don't like their husbands they can ask for divorce. All they have to do, is to go to the leader of the community, and tell him that she doesn't want to live with her husband. And the divorce is done easily.
"Christianity teaches that mankind cannot attain the kingdom of God without the grace of Christ"
Muslims believe in a similar thing, they believe that makind cannot achieve salvation without following the message that all the Prophets including Jesus and Muhammad brought. And the message was from God. The only difference between Muslims and Chrsitians is that Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but the Muslims disagree with that. Otherwise, Muslims do believe in Christ and Moses. And they even follow their message more strictly. So if following the teachings of Christ makes a person Christian, then Muslims are more Christian than the Christians themselves. And by the way, what you mentioned above is not the teachings of Christ. Those are the teachings of Saint Paul. The teaching of Christ is that, "if you want to enter heaven, then keep the Commandments". Which is exactly what the Muslims do.
"Islam, on the other hand, teaches that man can earn his way to heaven by behaving in ways that please Allah. It thereby demands the spread of Islam on earth, and that is what makes it a political ideology, where Christianity is not."
Daaah, which religion doesn't teach that? Are all the Christian missionaries around the world politicians? Is Christianity a political ideology too? Are they not spreading word of God or acting in ways that they think are pleasing to God? The basic Idea in Islam is to Convey the message of God to all mankind, after that it depends on them whether they accept it or not. Then it's between them and God.
"Liar. Or else I suppose the Qur’an is referring to Zionists in al-Maada verse 82 which says: “Indeed you will find that of all mankind, those with the strongest hatred of the believers are the Jews and the pagans”; "
All these verses which you mentioned are really there. But you have twisted the real meaning of these verses. I'm asking you to define the history of these verses as well. If you can't, then listen. Just like I mentioned above, Muslims had to deal with more than 360 Arab tribes. These tribes were mostly Pegans, Jewish and Christianic and many more. So the people who became the enemies of Muslims, were mainly Jews, Christians and the Pegans. These people tried to Annihilate Muslims for several reason. There were even many assasination attempts on the Prophet himself. These tribes used to kill Muslims and rob their caravans after they migragted to Madina. So many of the wars were forced upon the Muslims who were not even in a position to fight. Many of the verses you mentioned in your post which talk against the Jews, were only meant for those Jews who were fighting against Muslims back then. Now these verses are void anyway, because those Jewish tribes are not there anymore. All those verses have nothing to do with today's world.
"Or in 7:166, and 5:60, which also describe Jews as apes and pigs?;"
Completely false. This verse and the similar ones you mentioned in your post, do not demonize them or describe them as apes or pigs. In these verses, God reminds the Jews of Arabia about their history. How God was good to them during the time of Moses and how they constantly dis-obeyed God. These verses remind them that many of them had reached the highest levels of insolence and disobedience towards God, so God turned some of them into Apes as a punishment. It never even regards all Jews as apes or pigs.
"And in Bukhari 1.1.6: “Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.”
Yes, it was critical for the survival of the Muslims in Madina. Otherwise, the Jews would have annihilated them. What many of the Jews did for stopping Islam from spreading was that, they became hypocrites. They used to go to the Prophet and convert to Islam just for the show. And then they used to go to the ordinary people of Arabia, and tell them that they are Muslims and they are ashamed to be so. They would give false verses to those people. Those false verses usually talked about immoral things. Those jews used to say that these verses are from the Muslim God, which was a complete lie. And not only that, but these Jews were closely working with other Anti-Musilm tribes. They were looting caravans, plotting assasinations, and killing innocents people. So in other words, they were spy agents. And back in those days, Muslims were not in great numbers, so it was crucial for their own survival to figtht these double agents.
"Jew-hatred has been a cornerstone of Islamic thinking since 632 AD."
That's a massive false alligation. As I previously mentioned, the true Jews are honored by Islam, and are called as fellow people of the book, and so are the Christians. Infact Prophet Muhammad himself was friends with so many Jews. Many Jewish writers in the world admit the fact in their books that during the last 1400 years, their most glorious times were when they were living under Muslim rulers. They were treated as human beings and were given high ranks in the Muslim governments. On the other hand, the Chrisitians were treating them like animals. They exiled them from one land to another. In Europe, whenever there was a plague or a disease, the Jews were blamed for it. Countless Jews were mercilessly killed by the Christians without a reason. Stop twisting these things for the sake of demonizing Islam.
"child marriage
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alikhawar
17 years ago
This is Part2
"You can't even back up your charges with data. You're a fool."
I don't give date because I talk about things which are related with common sense. If I do give data, then you people will immediately discredit it, and will try so hard to prove the source as a retard. But common sense is something, which most people have. And they cannot deny things which are related with common sense.
"Cry baby. Maybe if more Muslims were interested in getting their act together and taking responsibility for their governments than blaming all their problems on Jews and Christians, the middle east wouldn’t be such a wasteland of poverty and degradation."
Oh no baby, I'm laughing at your stupidity. The Muslims have every reason to do that. Do you want me to remind those reasons again? You're living far away from the reality of the misery of Muslims. You just don't know anything about it, because you're playing into the hands of the western media and your governemnt. But for Muslims, these attrocities are a reality 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is really Ironic. When they attack us for no reason, they expect us to act like Ned Flanderas, and offer the other cheek. But when they get attacked, they kill millions of innocent people just for catching one attacker.
"Shari'ah is a cornerstone of Islamic theology. If you don't believe me, read EVERY ISLAMIC TREATISE EVER WRITTEN. Read the Qur'an"
Yes, it is. But first, define what the Shari'ah is. Then none of the readers would have any aruguement agreeing with it. One more thing, Shari'ah is not that thing which you demonize so much. It's far away from what you say. Define the Shari'ah first, and then argue.
"hangs women who have committed no crime but bring rape charges without four male witnesses"
This is a lie, the punishment for the rapist is death. And the punishment for both men and women for false rape allegations is equal, it is 100 lashes regardless of the sex. But they only get the punishment after they are proven guilty.
"And if you think a backward culture that beheads homosexuals"
Demonize Judaism and Christianity first, and all those religions which came before them. All those religions deal with homosexuals in the same way.
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wilder1377
17 years ago
Hey,
These guys are trolls with no interest in understanding. They just want to pummel with words. They only care about being "right" and are quite simply bullies.
I think you've done a very admirable job by trying to remain polite and refraining from responding in the manner that they do, which is rude, hateful and without respect for others opinions.
They give Americans (if they are from the States) a bad name. I hope you know that there are people in my country that hate violence, respect other religions, and are aware of our own faults.
We all have have things we need to work on. And maybe, if we clean all our own houses, then we don't have to waste time bombing each others.
That being said: please elaborate on Shari'ah. Define it.
Also, tell me a bit about the youth movement in your country. What do you see? I'm worried that the current "war on terror" is making Muslims less progressive and more resentful of the West. That doesn't help bridge the gap between our people. We've got to figure out common ground and build on it.
Lastly: props on the Ned Flanders reference. Niiice.
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17 years ago
[deleted]
wilder1377
17 years ago
"appeasers" ?
Lol. Now, now. I'll grant you the good will to think that you meant that in a congenial manner.
As in mollify, and propitiate.
Let's try something classy. Let's engage in a respectful dialogue between our two worlds and set an example.
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alikhawar
17 years ago
"That being said: please elaborate on Shari'ah. Define it"
It's simple. Shari'ah is simply the list of do's and dont's for the Muslims. Every religion has its own Shari'ah. Just yesterday I was in the library of the local Catholic church. And I found several books with the title The Christian Shariah. If the western people think that a religion with a Shariah is evil, then all religions should be Evil. Which is absured.
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meatballmeedow
17 years ago
alikhawar I debated this people several months ago and it got no where. They hold to the idea that Islam is a religion of hatred based off of bigots and pseudo-scholars of the religion. The Qur'anic verses they use to determine Islam is a religion of hatred is based on lack of context and surface reading. Those who are bigoted and ignorant will never change their minds unless it is the act of God himself.
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17 years ago
[deleted]
meatballmeedow
17 years ago
Well well well, look who's still trolling around here. No galileo the fundamentalists are literalist interpreters of the Qur'an like the Western pseudo-scholars are. These people abandon 1400 years of scholarly study, abandon the circumstance the verses were revealed under, and abandon the context of the Qur'an.
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17 years ago
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meatballmeedow
17 years ago
galileo you know nothing of the situation, the last time we talked you ran your mouth even when I gave you responses, as a typical bigot, the only person who actually listened to what I said was cronenfly even though he didn't know a damn thing either.
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17 years ago
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meatballmeedow
17 years ago
An answer to what? You didn't ask anything...
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17 years ago
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meatballmeedow
17 years ago
You know galileo, if you reject the CONTEXT OF THE QUR'AN, 1400 years of commentary, and the circumstances the Qur'an were revealed under, then yes, the verses can vary in meaning. But this is something you CAN'T do when trying to study the text. Verse 9 has verses dealing with the conduct of war, and throughout the Qur'an it puts limitations. A Muslim may only fight in self-defense, a Muslim cannot kill civilians, a Muslim cannot destroy civilian necessities, a Muslim cannot force conversion. The problem is radicals and western "scholars" like to disregard the 3 important aspects of the Qur'an and adopt a literalist interpretation.
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Cronenfly
17 years ago
There'a bit of cognitive dissonance here. Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizbollah, Tablighi Jamaat, and all the rest claim very clearly that they are fighting in "self defense." They claim repeatedly that the West is waging "a war against Islam," and has been for over a thousand years. Violent actions against innocent Israeli's and American interests are routinely justified as "self defense."
Muslims in vast numbers exhibit persecution complexes, and perceive every criticism as an assault against Islam. Witness the cartoon "scandal" and the rioting over the Pope's comments.
It doesn't do much good to assert that "Muslims can't kill civillians" when on one hand, you have clear historical instances of Muhammad and the Muslim armies killing civillians in battle, and you also have Islamic political groups today redefining the word "civillian" to exclude all Israelis -- even civillians.
As for forced conversions, you are right. After all, Qur'an 2:256 states "there is no compulsion in religion." Kafirs in conquered lands were always free to choose death or dhimmitude instead of converting to Islam.
After Mecca fell to the Muslims in 630 A.D., and Sura 9 of the Qur’an was "revealed," Muhammad had a statement read to the pagans advising them to convert to Islam or they would be hunted down and killed. He gave them four months to think it over. Maybe that’s not technically "compulsion," but only in the same way that paying protection money to the mob isn’t "compulsory."
Not to mention that the death sentence for Islamic apostates who convert to another religion, still enforced under shari’a today, is thoroughly documented. Now if that doesn’t qualify as "compulsion in religion," I don’t know what might.
It's a matter of historical fact that Islamic hegemony spread by the sword, and that Muhammad himself condoned and participated in this. Quibbling over how Western critics are really just "bigots" who take the Qur'an "out of context" is just a pathetic attempt to avoid dealing with the real issues.
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wilder1377
17 years ago
The problem with the argument that Cronenfly and others make here about Islam is a bit of their own cognitive dissonance. Certainly, there is truth to the history of violence made in the name of Muhammed over the past few centuries.
That's history. EXACTLY THE SAME as what the Christians did in the name of Christ.
We've been round and round this plenty of times, boys (or girls). You guys are without question 100 percent intellectually dishonest because you cherry pick what you want to prove half-truths and totally ignore the history of western civilization. There's no saints here people.
Folks have been killing in the name of G-d for a really long time. Both side. And until both sides suck it up and quit killing each other, we will get nowhere. And for the Americans, many of us need to realize that we are not always right, that we have screwed up, and that we need to stop this garbage to benefit multi-national corporations.
Let's all just grow up and cut the same old crap. I'm so tired of reading the same BS posts about the Qur'an by people who think they know what they are talking about. I happen to know my Judeo-Christian texts better than the average bear having been schooled in such things, and I promise you, the Christians are just as bad, if not worse. And there's plenty of Bible verse to defend such actions, from slaughtering the indigenous people of Latin America to enslaving the Black to burning the witches (which was really a property steal back in europe, but I digress ... ask your wise attorney friends) and converting the pagans.
Hello, Inquisition, anyone? So Cronenfly, why don't you just can it. This whole bit about religion is to blind you and me and all our muslim friends as well. All these things have always been and always will be about money and power. Period.
The rest of us chase these tales of it being about our G-d versus their G-d so they can con us into hating and killing each other.
With every bit of rhetoric you post, you play right into their game. Why don't you try to actually make things better? Wh don't you try to reach out and learn about others, from the people themselves, instead of what's been told to you by people with a very clear agenda?
Don't you get it, after all these months of posting? Like Pogo says: We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us. You are the very thing you rail about in your posts, you and Galileo both. Every time I read what you tow write, I just shake my head.
You are the very things you write against. "Self-defense"? Aye, isn't that why we invaded Iraq? Cognitive dissonance, indeed.
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Cronenfly
17 years ago
The problem with the argument that Cronenfly and others make here about Islam is a bit of their own cognitive dissonance. Certainly, there is truth to the history of violence made in the name of Muhammed over the past few centuries.
That's history. EXACTLY THE SAME as what the Christians did in the name of Christ.
We've been round and round this plenty of times, boys (or girls). You guys are without question 100 percent intellectually dishonest because you cherry pick what you want to prove half-truths and totally ignore the history of western civilization. There's no saints here people.
Folks have been killing in the name of G-d for a really long time. Both side. And until both sides suck it up and quit killing each other, we will get nowhere. And for the Americans, many of us need to realize that we are not always right, that we have screwed up, and that we need to stop this garbage to benefit multi-national corporations.
Let's all just grow up and cut the same old crap. I'm so tired of reading the same BS posts about the Qur'an by people who think they know what they are talking about. I happen to know my Judeo-Christian texts better than the average bear having been schooled in such things, and I promise you, the Christians are just as bad, if not worse. And there's plenty of Bible verse to defend such actions, from slaughtering the indigenous people of Latin America to enslaving the Black to burning the witches (which was really a property steal back in europe, but I digress ... ask your wise attorney friends) and converting the pagans.
Hello, Inquisition, anyone? So Cronenfly, why don't you just can it. This whole bit about religion is to blind you and me and all our muslim friends as well. All these things have always been and always will be about money and power. Period.
The rest of us chase these tales of it being about our G-d versus their G-d so they can con us into hating and killing each other.
With every bit of rhetoric you post, you play right into their game. Why don't you try to actually make things better? Wh don't you try to reach out and learn about others, from the people themselves, instead of what's been told to you by people with a very clear agenda?
Don't you get it, after all these months of posting? Like Pogo says: We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us. You are the very thing you rail about in your posts, you and Galileo both. Every time I read what you tow write, I just shake my head.
You are the very things you write against. "Self-defense"? Aye, isn't that why we invaded Iraq? Cognitive dissonance, indeed.
What an astonishing capacity for nonsense you have. Rather than directly address the arguments and assertions, you shift the argument to points I did not make, and then respond to them. That's not argumentation. It's masturbation.
Nobody, least of all me, ever said that Christians deserves a pass for the violence they've done in the the name of God. What I have said is that Christinity and Islam have nothing in common aside from the cosmetic - both sprang from Semitic tribes and both are monotheistic (to a degree -- Christians are considered polytheists by Muslims because they acccept the divinity of Christ).
I am utterly sick of self-important, self-righteous, masturbatory soap boxers like yourself who continually claim knowledge they do not have. It's patently obvious that you know nothing of Islamic teachings, the history of Muhammad or what the Qur'an ACTUALLY SAYS. Instead you have this comfortable little notion that all religions are essentially equal, that all religious people are essentially the same, and that no one does anything in the name of religion -- that's it's all about money and power.
That's essentially a Marxist opinion, and demonstrably untrue.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but your opinions on these matters can only thrive in ignorance. Once you know the actual facts of history, your position goes right out the window.
You see, when Christians commit violence, they are clearly and obviously NOT following the example and teachings of Jesus. When Muslims commit violence against the infidel in defense of Islam, they are doing EXACTLY what Muhammad himself did.
Not reconciling that glaring distinction is a prime example of cognitive dissonance. So once again, thank you for so plainly making my point.
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wilder1377x
17 years ago
C'mon big guy, you seems to like to accuse folks of masturbatory soap boxering, when all you have been doing for a good long time is stroking yourself all over this message board.
There's a slew of posts from a few months back that you never adressed, never answered. I'm not a new poster; this is all very old ground. I'm talking about stuff we debated earlier. Or do you not recall?
Save the "patently obvious" and the full-on bullying for your choir. The only reason you are trotting out lame accusations of "Marxist opinion" and attempting to belittle me is because that's all you got.
"Your opinions on these matters can only thrive in ignorance."
Ignorance of what? Pray tell? Come, share this incredible knowledge you claim to have. Wow, Mr. Islamic Scholar, why don't you explain to us how you happen to be such an amazing expert on international relations.
Since you are so smarter than everyone else here, why not be specific? Because you don't seem to hear anything other that what you want to hear. People post here who ARE Muslim and DO LIVE over there. I'd think they might know a little bit about Islamic culture since that actually live it.
Or, does that not work for you? What facts of history would you like?
The ones that support your side or the ones that require a clear and objective mind?
Cause this isn't a matter of the scary Muslims out to get us; it's about the fact that we've backed the wrong people time and time again and now we are suffering the consequences.
We are making the wrong foreign policy calls all over the world right now. We took out the counter-balance to Iran by creating instabilty in Iraq (which wasn't our call to make -- the intell was dead wrong -- and they were not a threat.)
Saudi Arabia? Wow, ain't those the good guys! We protect them as they funnel money to the people who DO attack us. How about we correct that injustice? How's that for history? We keep a cruel monarchy in place in Saudi Arabia, where the worst of the extreme Muslim practices fester.
Iran? Hmmmm. Seems we had something to do with bringing down a democracy over there once. Or is that not an "actual fact of history"? Not the kind that counts, right? Wow, pretty amazing how that turned into BP ...
You know, the youth of Iran actually like American culture, but I'm pretty sure we're doing a great job of ruining that right now. We are our own worst enemy.
Iraq and Saddam. The Taliban and Afghanistan.
Oh, wait. Sorry. We're we talking about ACTUAL FACTS OF HISTORY. Oh? Too recent?
Let's keep chattering about Muhammed and what happened more than a thousand years ago. Sure. That's relevant.
Riiight. They hate us because of those few choice verses you like to quote over and over and over.
Gosh. Thanks man for enlightening me. It's all so simple.
But it's not. And you know it. And this is not a game of my religion is better then that other guy's religion.
Saying "when Christians commit violence, they are clearly and obviously NOT following the example and teachings of Jesus" does NOTHING to wash away a couple of centuries of bloodshed done in the name of Christ.
Those aren't magic words that suddenly makes it all go away.
And the end of the day, my point is this: the folks that make the decisions and order the people, they are motivated by power and money. The ones who do the actually killing and dying - most often than not -- are the ones who are led to think they are doing it for religion. For G-d and family. For something more, something with meaning.
Those aren't bad people. They just happen to be on the other side. You want to make these people into monsters, and they aren't. They are people. Humans do awful vile things because humans can. Not because they are Arab or American or German or Jew. Or whatever.
I understand why they -- the everyday people: mothers and father, sons and daughters -- hate us. But I also know that they are not the problem, just the victims of it.
Such is history.
Call it what ever you want, but don't dare assume you know better than I or anyone else out here. All I've read from you is the same BS talking points that people very close to me are paid to disseminate.
You are the worst of hypocrites. Unless of course, you can list some of these actual facts of history.
Let's see what you got.
And, be complete.
Citing a litany of what evils have been performed for Islam while ignoring what's occured in Christianity will only prove you are totally full of it.
And I'm pretty sure you will ignore the egregious errors underway right now in our own backyard.
We destroy freedom at home by abandoning the very core values of democracy including privacy and Habeaus Corpus. We legalize torture. We have secret prisions. We spy on own citizens.
Oh, but wait. Gosh. There goes my cognitive dissonance again. I bet you think that makes me a bad American? I mean, it's not like this is a representative democracy based on We the People and sparked by a revolution. Let's dare not question, as is our duty as responsible Americans.
Nah, let's freak out over that scary Islamofacist whose gonna kill us cause that's what Muhammed wants cause that's the ACTUAL HISTORY OF ISLAM.
Yeah! A bunch of crazy folks out in the desert chanting death to America. Must. Be. Afraid. Of. Them.
Cause Cronenfly is so wise about the Muslims and he knows whats REALLY going on!
blah, blah, blah....
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Cronenfly
17 years ago
This is too exhausting, that's why I stopped posting for a while. You've repeatedly stated opinion as a substitute for scholarship. Why should I give a damn what you think of Islam and Christinity when you obviously don't know anything about Islam?
I assume you must agree that understanding what motivates our enemies (provided you acknowledge that we have enemies), is an important thing to do. When jihad terrorists around the globe, not just in America but everywhere, cite the Qur'an chapter and verse to explain their goals, and when they hold Muhammad as the supreme example and model their behavior after him, you can respond in one of two ways: study what they are saying, read the sources, and become informed, or stick your fingers in your ears and say: "la-la-la-it's all America's fault-la-la-la" until your voice is drowned out by explosions.
It is the height of provincialism to refuse to acknoweldge what the jihadists are actually saying and instead substitute your own interpretation of what they must be thinking; sure, they may say that Allah commands them to bring the infidel nations under submission to Islam by any means necessary, violent or not, and sure they say that Israel must be destroyed and that America, the Great Satan, must bow to the will Allah, but what they really mean is American foreign policy is the root of all evil. They're just so angry at us for our mistakes, they don't really know what they're saying.
That's not only hogwash, is paternalistic bigotry.
The ignorance I accuse you of, which seemed to elude you, is your ignorance of Islam. It's an easy enough thing to rectify -- the material is easy to get ahold of. Read the Qur'an, for one thing. Read the hadith. Read the sira. I know you don't know what those words mean, but look them up -- again, easy to find.
I've wasted so many words making this case only to have you come back and say I haven't done so. You still cannot argue the historic points, because you don't know them -- you are only arguing from your interpretation of what's going on -- money and power. You make appeals to authority, such as Muslim posters on this board, rather than doing any study yourself.
I can't state the facts as I know them any more clearly than I already have, and since you refuse to do the work required to engage me honestly and intelligently, I give up.
The estemable Robert Spencer, one of many scholars far more learned than I who are at the forefront of this issue, has begun a series called Blogging the Qur'an, which I encourage you to follow. http://hotair.com/archives/2007/05/27/blogging-the-quran/
In the meantime, I strongly encourage you to pay attention to what's going on outside your own subjective opinion. You want to see torture? Look up the Al Qaeda how-to-torture comic book just found in Pakistan. Check the stats about how many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc. are being savagely murdered around the world, like Indonesia where school girls get beheaded, or the ongoing jihad in Thailand, ad nauseam, ad nauseam. The jihad is a global problem, and until you get over your egocentric notion that America's shortcomings are to blame for every savage act committed by Muslims, and until you broaden the spectrum of your knowledge on what actually animates violent jihadists, you will not have an opinion on this issue worth listening to.
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wilder1377x
17 years ago
Cronenfly,
All you did was cop out: I'm still waiting for your actual facts. Again, sorry man, but, again, you are the worst kind of hypocrite.
Engage you honestly and fairly? Do the work? Like quote other people that blog? Ooooh! Hot Air?! Wow, that's scholarly: the Daily Kos of the Right.
You cite Robert Spencer, father of a pair of right-wing Web sites. He's made a name for himself by focusing on the most extreme aspects of Islam, kinda like saying Rev. Fred Phelps is the poster child of Christianity. I've two of his books in my office, next to works from good ol Bernie Lewis, right next to Edward Said. I like to mix it up, ya know.
There's no question that awful things happen in the name of Islam and by folks who quote those verses. My point is: these same horrific things were ALSO done by Christians during the past few centuries.
I don't see you railing against the Christians. Likely because modernization, secularism and liberalism plus changes within the faith's many denominations, brought about reformation.
FWIW, you make wild assumptions, based on opinion, on what you think I do or do not know. You do that to bully posters. Because you can't do much more than regurgitate what other people have written. You assume those ideas as your own, reading books and blogs, and think you got it all figured out.
I'm not a Muslim scholar, but I have read chunks of the Koran and other related works.
In a past life, I had been an Evangelical Christian, raised most of my life deep in the church. I know all the talking points about Islam. About most religions. I read the Bible cover to cover three times before I was 13 and until my 20s, my world revolved around a very fundamentalist POV. After leaving the church, read everything I could get my hands on regarding Scripture of all stripes.
I was a Young Republican, raised in a family that traveled the world because my father worked for an oil company. I know your kind. I was your kind. I still move in the same world that embraces your POV.
So, again, cut the BS.
Why not do what you claim you are capabable of? What are your actual facts?
Jihadi Terrorists? All right. Let's discuss the difference between Al-Qaeda proper and the ones co-opting that name "in Mesopotamia". (Surely, you know what I am talking about?)
Let's debate a bit about the Sunni-Shi'te fighting happening withing Iraq, its leaders and motivations.
How about that Hamas Vs. Fatah smackdown? Which side you picking?
Now, why again is Right of Return such a big deal to Palestinians and how does that threaten Isreal's theocracy? Wonder if water has anything to do with any of those disputed territories?
Ah, what am I thinking?! Cronenfly the Scholar has explained to me that all roads lead to Allah. I'm just a Blame America firster! SO much easier to say that then actually consider the issues......
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Cronenfly
17 years ago
Criminy, here we go again. I'll give this a shot, despite your repeated ad hominem attacks and personal insults. For example:
You:
FWIW, you make wild assumptions, based on opinion, on what you think I do or do not know. You do that to bully posters. Because you can't do much more than regurgitate what other people have written. You assume those ideas as your own, reading books and blogs, and think you got it all figured out.
Thus in one stroke you accuse me of attacking you without basis, and then proceed to attack me without basis. I'm not sure what FWIW means, but my assumptions about your lack of knowledge of Islam, and comments to that effect, are NOT based on "wild assumptions" or "opinion" but strictly on your own words. For example, following after the above, in which you state:
I'm not a Muslim scholar, but I have read chunks of the Koran and other related works.
So you think "reading chunks of the Qur'an" should be enough to render your opinion valid? Now who's cherry picking? Surely you can see that you are not arguing rationally.
I gave you the link to Spencer's new blog because I am tired of trying to make these points after months and months of doing so, only to have people like you say that the points have not been made. I offered you a very learned source, Spencer, who EXCLUSIVELY refers to Islam's own texts and history to back his claims. His works are thoroughly footnoted and sourced, but instead of reading him, you parrot the old ad hominem, dismissing him as "right wing." That certainly gets you off the hook for having to read him and decide if claims against him are true or not, doesn't it?
Then there's the "Hot Air" as the "DailyKos" of the right comment. Cute. I assume you say that because you realize what an irrational, ideology-driven intellectual slag heap DailyKos is, and posit that Hot Air is the same thing for the other side. Okay, prove it. I don't agree with everything I read at Hot Air -- I don't need to, that's not a requirement I place on the things I read. And clearly Hot Air is not a completely objective source for news -- that's not and has never been their mission, and they make no claims to the contrary. But take one post at Kos, say a recent one such as their defense of Hugo Chavez's Stalin-like shuttering of an opposition TV station, and find anything at Hot Air that remotely compares.
There's no question that awful things happen in the name of Islam and by folks who quote those verses. My point is: these same horrific things were ALSO done by Christians during the past few centuries.
I don't see you railing against the Christians ....
I don't rail against Christians, for two reasons: first, it's completely beside the point. The argument about the degree to which violence is endemic to Islam has absolutely nothing to do with the nature of other faiths.
Second, because in order to criticize the kind of wide spread violence from Christians that we see today from Muslims, you have to go back centuries -- just look at the examples you yourself repeatedly harp about -- the Inquisition, the reformation, etc. Citing historic violent episodes in Christianity has no currency today, because it's in the past. The opposite is true in Islam -- Islamic violence has a clear and obvious continuity, all the way back from it's founding up to what goes on every day around the world NOW.
Excusing Muslim violence on the basis that Christians have violence in their past is a fool's argument, not to mention moral equivocation; Muslim violence is either wrong, or it's not. And Muslim religious texts either allow for violence, or they do not. This distinction alone is enough to explain why it's so important to know what the texts themselves actually say, and it proves you have not done the reading.
... Likely because modernization, secularism and liberalism plus changes within the faith's many denominations, brought about reformation.
I maintain this is a liberal myth. In any event, you cannot prove this assertion. As I've said before, and which you still have not responded to, violence in the name of Christianity is a clear departure from the message of Christ and the tenets of the faith. As Christian nations became less warlike, less violent, they were becoming MORE Christian. It's Christianity itself as a unifying social principle that allowed for the eventual rise of modernization, secularism and liberalism in the first place.
In order for Christians to become less violent and more tolerant, all they need to do is adhere closer to the example and message of Jesus. In order for Muslims to do so, they have to behave as little like Muhammad as possible. That's simply an irrefutable core principal that knowledge of the history makes perfectly clear.
You presume to know so much about my worldview with silly statements like:
I was a Young Republican, raised in a family that traveled the world because my father worked for an oil company. I know your kind. I was your kind. I still move in the same world that embraces your POV.
But you don't know a thing about me or my POV. I've been a liberal my entire life, raised by hippies, and voted democrat in every election I was of age to. The thing that changed all that for me was not just 9/11, but in the reaction to 9/11 by my fellow democrats and liberals. It's in the hypocricy of political correctness and multiculturalism which embraces a socio-religious system like Islam that is totally antithetical to liberal democracy, individual liberty and human rights. It's in the New Left's advocacy against freedom of speech, such as when scholars of differing opinion such as Daniel Pipes or Spencer get shouted down and threatened with death on college campuses, or the Kos defending totalitarian tactics in Venezuela. It's in the hypocricy of liberals finding common cause with the systematic savagery and child abuse of the Palestinian over the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, Israel.
It never fails to make me laugh when I see modern liberals, feminists and homosexuals marching for Palestine, as happened recently in San Francisco, when if the Palestinian goal of obliterating Isreal came to pass, the first people to be lined up and executed would be gays and emancipated women. In Israel, there is a thriving gay community that can demonstrate publicly. I'd love to see them try that in any Muslim dominated country.
In short, liberalism is not liberalism anymore. That, and a thorough study of Islamic doctrine, has made being a modern liberal untenable for me.
You called Israel a theocracy. What is Iran? What is Saudi Arabia? What would replace Israel if Hamas gets its way? Is it really "theocracy" that you and other leftists rail against? Or just the Judeo-Christian variety?
As for facts, I've stated facts ad nauseam for months on these boards. If you take issue with one of them, fire away. But I'm not just going to state facts at random for you, so you can take pot shots at those of us who value being educated. I wonder how much you value that?
Doesn't seem like much.
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alikhawar
17 years ago
Muhammad didn't take over Madina by force or anything. The people of Madina invited him there to make decisions for them. Because he had a great reputation in all of Arabia. He was given the names by the people like, the Most Wise, the one who always speaks the truth and The Trust Worthy. The tribes of Madina had been fighting each other for a long time. And none of them trusted each other. But all of them trusted Muhammad with their lives. So they asked him to come to Madina and live there. And to talk to all the tribes and end the enmity between them. And it did happen. All of them made treaties with each other and agreed not to fight again and to live like brothers. But this peace was not acceptible to the jews. Because they used to fund all the wars between those tribes. They used to get heavy interest on the loans they gave for wars. So the jews tried every trick to enrage the tribes against each other. It was then that those verses about the jews were revealed.
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alikhawar
17 years ago
"Violent actions against innocent Israeli's"
Oh yeah? Then how do you explain this? http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html, http://ifamericansknew.org/, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-m73iaP-bE
http://jewwatch.com/(read the articles under Jewish Atrocities). Not only this, but if you type the words Israeli Atrocities on any web search engine, you get a huge bunch of pages filled with proofs of Israeli atrocities.
"Muslims in vast numbers exhibit persecution complexes, and perceive every criticism as an assault against Islam. Witness the cartoon "scandal" and the rioting over the Pope's comments."
Oh yes, they did protest. But remember, there are more than One and a half bullion Muslims in this world. And the ones who protested were only a few thousands. They were magnified by your media to make it look as if they were millions. One more thing I would like to add here. You must have noticed that the ones who turned violent, were mostly young men and children. Whether you believe this or not, but this is a commonly known fact in the middle east that these young people from poor countries are paid by the western television networks to do it so that their cameras can get the footage and they can show the rest of the world what savage the Muslims are. I'm sure you're going to attack me upon this. But this is a commonly known fact in the middle east.
"After Mecca fell to the Muslims in 630 A.D., and Sura 9 of the Qur’an was "revealed," Muhammad had a statement read to the pagans advising them to convert to Islam or they would be hunted down and killed. He gave them four months to think it over. Maybe that’s not technically "compulsion," but only in the same way that paying protection money to the mob isn’t "compulsory."
That's true, Prophet Muhammad did give a warning. But it was not to all the Pegans of Makkah. But rather to the chiefs of Makka. You must also tell the background. In the early days of Muhammad's Prophethood, these chiefs made the defenseless Muslims suffer so much. They committed countless atrocities against the Muslims. They killed countless defenseless Muslims. They didn't even spare children. They were extremely ruthless people. So after the conquest of Makkah, Muhammad announced forgiveness and freedom for all pegans, except for those 10 chiefs. Because their crimes were too great to be forgiven. So then the Prophet said to them that if they still repent and become Muslims, then they can be forgiven. Otherwise they were going to get executed anyway. Keep in mind that becoming a Muslim doesn't just mean the change of God, but it actually means submitting your will to God. Doing things the ways God wants you to do. Which also includes change of character and becoming a good and righteous person.
"It's a matter of historical fact that Islamic hegemony spread by the sword"
Then how come there are 14 million of those ethnic Christians in the Middle east whose generations have not left Christianity since its dawn? And which Muslim armies went to Indonesia and Malaysia and forced the locals to convert? Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in the world, did you know that? Forced conversion cannot penetrate a person's heart. So it destroys the purpose of conversion anyway. Islam says that if the conversion is not from the heart, then it's not worth it because God knows what's in the heart of a person. So if a person himself wants to convert, then he's welcomed. Otherwise Muslims are forbidden to force him.
"Not to mention that the death sentence for Islamic apostates who convert to another religion, still enforced under shari’a today, is thoroughly documented. Now if that doesn’t qualify as "compulsion in religion," I don’t know what might."
The message of Islam is clear. There's no compulsion at all. But you have to understand that the Europeon colonialists committed massive atrocities in the Middle East before they left. And most of the constitutions and laws of the Muslim countries were made at that time. And according to many, this law was added for security reasons. But very few have been convicted.
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Cronenfly
17 years ago
"Violent actions against innocent Israeli's"
Oh yeah? Then how do you explain this? http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html, http://ifamericansknew.org/, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-m73iaP-bE
http://jewwatch.com/(read the articles under Jewish Atrocities). Not only this, but if you type the words Israeli Atrocities on any web search engine, you get a huge bunch of pages filled with proofs of Israeli atrocities.
You're right -- KILL ALL THE JEWS! Right? Isn't that where you're going with this? After all, nearly every one of your posts finds some way to insinuate that all the problems of the Muslim world would go away if it wasn't for the damned Jews back in the 7th century screwing everything up for Muhammad and his wonderful Islamic paradise in Medina, or modern day Israeli's targetting Arab children. I can only assume you believe that Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matzo, too.
Your web links don't demonstrate anything except that war is hell, and there are a lot of people who use that to generate propaganda against Israel. Show me one Israeli textbook that teaches Jewish children that Arabs are descended from apes and pigs. Show me one Israeli elementary school that dresses children up in bomb belts and toy guns while they recite jihadist poetry. Show me an Israeli pageant in which little Jewish girls dress up in militant regalia and sing about killing Arabs to an appreciative audience in the thousands, like we see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR8Tfd0i4lYor here:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25713_Video-_Death_Cult_Kindergarten_Graduation&only or any number of other examples. It's posters like you who demonstrate more forcefully than I ever could the rampant Jew hatred at the core of the pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli cause.
"Muslims in vast numbers exhibit persecution complexes, and perceive every criticism as an assault against Islam. Witness the cartoon "scandal" and the rioting over the Pope's comments."
Oh yes, they did protest. But remember, there are more than One and a half bullion Muslims in this world. And the ones who protested were only a few thousands.
A "few thousands" is all it takes, and more than enough. Wars and revolutions are always fought by a sigificantly smaller portion of the population.
They were magnified by your media to make it look as if they were millions.
Absurd. The vast majority of our media is severely biased in favor of the Islamist cause. All you have to do is count the daily examples of atrocities perpetrated by Muslims across the globe that are not even mentioned in our mainstream media.
Just consider the spin given the current conflict between the Lebanese Army and the Islamists hiding in the refugee camp in Tripoli, and compare it to how the Jenin incident was covered. More Arabs killed, more refugees fleeing the camps, and none of the criticism leveled at Lebanon that is routinely leveled at Israel. In fact the opposite -- the Lebanese are praised. I dare you to come up with a justification for this:
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=96c43ca9-ec26-470a-adda-93476ff79799One more thing I would like to add here. You must have noticed that the ones who turned violent, were mostly young men and children. Whether you believe this or not, but this is a commonly known fact in the middle east that these young people from poor countries are paid by the western television networks to do it so that their cameras can get the footage and they can show the rest of the world what savage the Muslims are. I'm sure you're going to attack me upon this. But this is a commonly known fact in the middle east.
I'm not going to attack you on it. I'm just going to call it what it is. Stupid and paranoid.
"After Mecca fell to the Muslims in 630 A.D., and Sura 9 of the Qur’an was "revealed," Muhammad had a statement read to the pagans advising them to convert to Islam or they would be hunted down and killed. He gave them four months to think it over. Maybe that’s not technically "compulsion," but only in the same way that paying protection money to the mob isn’t "compulsory."
That's true, Prophet Muhammad did give a warning. But it was not to all the Pegans of Makkah. But rather to the chiefs of Makka. You must also tell the background ...
Even if your point about the 3-fold invitation only applying to the chiefs were not patently untrue -- read the history, the Muslim army was directed to fight against
anyone who resisted, not to mention that the invitation was repeated to others, such as Heraclius -- it wouldn't matter. Because the overall point is that Muhammad consolidated his power through violence. I suppose you will excuse, for example, how Abu Sufyan was greeted, when he said he still had doubts as to whether or not Muhammad was God's apostle; one of Muhammad's lieutenants stepped up and said: "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is his prophet or you will lose your head." After all, Abu Sufyan was the leader of the Quraysh, so the rules are different, right? But it sure sounds a lot like "compulsion in religion" to me.
"It's a matter of historical fact that Islamic hegemony spread by the sword"
Then how come there are 14 million of those ethnic Christians in the Middle east whose generations have not left Christianity since its dawn? And which Muslim armies went to Indonesia and Malaysia and forced the locals to convert? Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in the world, did you know that?
Why don't you go look up the definition of "hegemony" and get back to me.
"Not to mention that the death sentence for Islamic apostates who convert to another religion, still enforced under shari’a today, is thoroughly documented. Now if that doesn’t qualify as "compulsion in religion," I don’t know what might."
The message is clear. There's no compulsion at all.
No, the message is decidedly
unclear, because Muhammad said one thing and did another.
But you have to understand that the Europeon colonialists committed massive atrocities in the Middle East before they left. And most of the constitutions and laws of the Muslim countries were made at that time. And according to many, this law was added for security reasons. But very few have been convicted.
I have to understand nothing of the kind. Just which "European colonialists" are you talking about, who committed all these atrocities in the 7th century, when Muhammad was inventing these rules? In Bukhari volume 9 book 88, Muhammad said plainly: "He who changes his Islamic faith, kill him." Your logical gymnastics and "Euro-blame" cannot explain that.
Show me a comparison, where Jesus said such a thing.
Face it: Christianity was violent in the past
in spite of the teachings of Christ. Islam is violent
because of the teachings and example of Muhammad. End of story.
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alikhawar
17 years ago
My God, Cronenfly how many more times are you going to repeat all these stupid questions for the sake of getting some pride? Read my previous posts I have answered every question before. I think you should get something for strengthening your memory. And if you still want me to answer, then I shall answer again.
Ok here we go.
“You're right -- KILL ALL THE JEWS! Right? Isn't that where you're going with this? After all, nearly every one of your posts finds some way to insinuate that all the problems of the Muslim world would go away if it wasn't for the damned Jews back in the 7th century screwing everything up for Muhammad and his wonderful Islamic paradise in Medina, or modern day Israeli's targetting Arab children. I can only assume you believe that Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matzo, too.”
You’re just trying too hard to convince people over your stupid point, that Muslims hate every Jew on this planet, which is absurd. This is true that some Jews did create problems for Muslims as well as for others in the past. But I don’t put the Zionists in the same category. Remember, there are Anti-Zionist Jews in this world too. These are the Jews who follow the same commandments of God as Muslims. Zionist are the real problem. They are a threat to world peace.
“Your web links don't demonstrate anything except that war is hell and there are a lot of people who use that to generate propaganda against Israel”
Propaganda is usually generated when a country’s government needs the support of its people with some on going process such as war. Just like the American media is scaring the *beep* out of American people. Telling them that they can get attacked at any moment by one and a half bullion camel riding wild savages who live under tents in the deserts of Arabia. So that’s why their government and their other European friends have to play the angels of mercy and they need to go to the Middle East for wiping out those savages for the sake of America and for saving all humanity. And then people like you get sooo scared that they get ready to support anything their government says. Not knowing that they’ve been lied to, and they’re just playing in the government’s hands. Tell me, how many Muslim countries are preparing to attack Israel?
“Show me one Israeli textbook that teaches Jewish children that Arabs are descended from apes and pigs. Show me one Israeli elementary school that dresses children up in bomb belts and toy guns while they recite jihadist poetry. Show me an Israeli pageant in which little Jewish girls dress up in militant regalia and sing about killing Arabs to an appreciative audience in the thousands, like we see here”
As far as the apes and pigs thing is concerned, Muslim never teach their children that Israelis or the other westerners come from apes and other animals. Infact, it’s your beloved western world including Israel that teaches Evolution in schools. As for the ape thing related to Jews, read my previous posts. I’ve already given the answer to that in one of my previous posts and you better remember now that there’s no such thing mentioned in the Quran. And as far as the militant thing is concerned, what the Palestinians are doing, are the acts of desperation. You know they are surrounded by the Zioniststs who want to wipe them out. And so every Palestinian has to get ready to defend himself. And I can show you many examples of daily Israeli savagery against innocent Palestinians. Take a look at this…http://youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0
Oh and, the Israelis are not so desperate that they are willing to give up their lives. Nor are they fighting for a cause, like the liberation of their country (like the Palestinians). They are bullying everyone openly. So their children do this…
http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/article_824.html
And when everything is done, and people from all over the world complain about the Israeli savagery, they send actors on international TV channels who act sooooo innocently and try to make Israel look like a blessing for humanity. Like this one…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w6fn5NZ6LBk
“It's posters like you who demonstrate more forcefully than I ever could the rampant Jew hatred at the core of the pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli cause.”
Look who’s talking.
“A "few thousands" is all it takes, and more than enough. Wars and revolutions are always fought by a sigificantly smaller portion of the population.”
Then how come you blame all Muslims for negative things? America and its allies are there in the Middle East, in much more bigger numbers than just thousands, and their enemy doesn’t even have half the capability that they have. But they are not even close to winning.
“Absurd. The vast majority of our media is severely biased in favor of the Islamist cause. All you have to do is count the daily examples of atrocities perpetrated by Muslims across the globe that are not even mentioned in our mainstream media.
Just consider the spin given the current conflict between the Lebanese Army and the Islamists hiding in the refugee camp in Tripoli, and compare it to how the Jenin incident was covered. More Arabs killed, more refugees fleeing the camps, and none of the criticism leveled at Lebanon that is routinely leveled at Israel. In fact the opposite -- the Lebanese are praised. I dare you to come up with a justification for this”
Lol. What? They’re supporting the Islamist cause? What world are you living in pal? Everyone knows that all the western media shows, is Islamophobia and venom against Islam and Muslims. Take a look at the internet alone, and you will find millions of web pages created by people like yourself.
The reason why Lebanon was praised is because it was indirectly helping the cause of Israel and the west.
“Even if your point about the 3-fold invitation only applying to the chiefs were not patently untrue -- read the history, the Muslim army was directed to fight against anyone who resisted, not to mention that the invitation was repeated to others, such as Heraclius -- it wouldn't matter. Because the overall point is that Muhammad consolidated his power through violence. I suppose you will excuse, for example, how Abu Sufyan was greeted, when he said he still had doubts as to whether or not Muhammad was God's apostle; one of Muhammad's lieutenants stepped up and said: "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is his prophet or you will lose your head." After all, Abu Sufyan was the leader of the Quraysh, so the rules are different, right? But it sure sounds a lot like "compulsion in religion" to me.”
If you are an innocent angel, then how come you NEVER EVER mention the brutality of the Quraish? Why don’t you ever mention how they used to torture Muslims? How they used to kill the families of Muslim men in front of them and used to force them to see everything. How they used to drage their bodies through the streets of Makkah for setting up examples. How they used to burn their skins. How they used to starve Muslims to death. How they used to make them lie on burning hot sand and then whipped them. How they used to crush them with heavy stones. How they used to stretch their limbs using horses. And when the Muslims fled to other places, the Quraish pursued them and killed most of them. Surely you know about the many attempts made to kill Prophet Muhammad. Those leaders of Quraish were Guilty for crimes against humanity anyway. But just as I mentioned before that converting to Islam doesn't just mean the change of God. It means total submission to the will of God. And the will of God is that you should change your charater. Become a good human being, who is pious, just and good to others.
“Why don't you go look up the definition of "hegemony" and get back to me.”
Hegemony
Pronunciation: hi-'je-m&-nE, -'ge-; 'he-j&-"mO-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek hEgemonia, from hEgemOn leader, from hEgeisthai to lead
1 : preponderant influence or authority over others : DOMINATION <battled for hegemony in Asia>
2 : the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group <extend their own hegemony over American culture as a whole -- Mary K. Cayton>
- heg•e•mon•ic "he-j&-'mä-nik, "he-g&-/ adjective
There it is. Doesn’t change anything.
“In Bukhari volume 9 book 88, Muhammad said plainly: "He who changes his Islamic faith, kill him." Your logical gymnastics and "Euro-blame" cannot explain that.
Show me a comparison, where Jesus said such a thing.”
I’m so sick of the hypocrisy you’ve been showing. Here it is, read it
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)
Paul: Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. Slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, and ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
“Face it: Christianity was violent in the past in spite of the teachings of Christ. Islam is violent because of the teachings and example of Muhammad. End of story.”
Neither Jesus, nor Prophet Muhammad taught violence. And the violence related to Muslims has only one reason. INJUSTICE.
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THE_Tetsuo
17 years ago
You're right -- KILL ALL THE JEWS! Right? Isn't that where you're going with this?
And you'll say "KILL ALL THE MUSLIMS!" and pretend to be above that sort of behavior.
"This year I'm voting Republican. The Democrats left a bad taste in my mouth."
-Monica Lewinsky
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soldier99
16 years ago
Cronenfly,
Just one thing I'd like to tell you- I really enjoyed reading your posts
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alikhawar
17 years ago
Galilleo, please read my first post. Those Afghanis and Arabs were mostly extremely illeterate men. And they were shown tapes about Jihad which were made by the Americans. With their own interpretation of Jihad. The nature of the videos was such that they were able to boil the blood of those men against the Soviets. Remember, they were all illiterate men with less or no education of the Quran. Most of them were living in poverty and were taken to Afghanistan by the Americans. So their knowledge of Jihad was given to them by the Americans.
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17 years ago
[deleted]
alikhawar
17 years ago
All I'm saying is that the west shouldn't have brainwashed them in this manner. Look at what they've become.
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17 years ago
[deleted]
alikhawar
17 years ago
"not much more i can say about that"
That's because you don't have anything to say. You know Galilleo, I used to think that you were a fair person, because initially you came at me in a typically aggressive manner. But as time passed and we discussed several issues, your speach became more and more gentle. So I thought you were a fair person who was only mislead by the western media. But now I'm sensing something else. I think now it has become a game of ego for you. After a few weeks you come back, team up with cronenfly, and start attacking again. I'm really disappointed at that. Believe it or not but I had respect for you in my heart for a few weeks. But I'm sorry to say that it's not there anymore.
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17 years ago
[deleted]
alikhawar
17 years ago
All I've been doing is answering you. If you thought I was attacking you then it's your thinking. I was having a discussion.
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nabz103
17 years ago
coming onto an internet based forum to talk about one specific religion and its fault (no matter how many big boy words you use) doesn't make you look clever. get off the chair, out of the ass groove, stop hating and breathe from fresh air outside. the real world ;)
ta ta for now
xxx
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THE_Tetsuo
17 years ago
and you responded to us, so what does that make you? even worse? haha.
LOL, someone's easily insulted!
"This year I'm voting Republican. The Democrats left a bad taste in my mouth."
-Monica Lewinsky
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