MovieChat Forums > Red Tails (2012) Discussion > Top Aces of WWII

Top Aces of WWII

posted 12 years ago by NoRevisionism
24 replies | jump to latest

Name Victories

Erich Hartmann 352
Gerhard Barkhorn 301
Gunther Rall 275
Otto Kittel 267
Walter Nowotny 258
Wilhlem Batz 237
Erich Rudorffer 224
Heinz Bar 221
Hermann Graf 212
Heinrich Ehrler 208
Theodor Weissenberger 208
Hans Philipp 206
Walter Schuck 206
Anton Hafner 204
Helmut Lipfert 203
Walter Krupinski 197
Anton Hackl 192
Joachim Brendel 189
Max Stotz 189
Joachim Kirschner 188
Kurt Brandle 180
Gunther Josten 178
Johannes Steinhoff 178
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174
Gunther Schack 174
Emil Lang 173
Heinz Schmidt 173
Horst Ademeit 166
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke 162
Hans Joachim Marseille 158
Heinrich Sturm 158
Gerhard Thyben 157
Hans Beisswenger 152
Peter Duttmann 152
Gordon Gollob 150
Fritz Tegtmeier 146
Albin Wolf 144
Kurt Tanzer 143
Friedrich-Karl Muller 140
Karl Gratz 138
Heinrich Setz 138
Rudolf Trenkel 138
Walter Wolfrum 137
Horst-Gunther von Fassong 136
Otto Fonnekold 136
Karl-Heinz Weber 136
Joachim Muencheberg 135
Hans Waldmann 134
Alfred Grislawski 133
Franz Schall 133
Johannes Wiese 133
Adolf Borchers 132
Adolf Dickfeld 132
Erwin Clausen 132
Wilhelm Lemke 131
Gerhard Hoffmann 130
Franz Eisenach 129
Walther Dahl 129
Heinrich Sterr 129
Franz Dorr 128
Rudolf Rademacher 126
Josef Zwernemann 126
Dietrich Hrabak 125
Wolf Ettel 124
Herbert Ihlefeld 123
Wolfgang Tonne 122
Heinz Marquardt 121
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 121
Robert Weiss 121
Erich Leie 121
Friedrich Obleser 120
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117
Hans-Joachim Birkner 117
Jakob Norz 117
Walter Oesau 117
Heinz Wernicke 117
August Lambert 116
Wilhelm Crinius 114
Werner Schroer 114
Hans Dammers 113
Berthold Korts 113
Helmut Lent 113
Kurt Buhligen 112
Kurt Ubben 110
Franz Woidich 110
Reinhard Seiler 109
Emil Bitsch 108
Hans Hahn 108
Bernhard Vechtel 108
Viktor Bauer 106
Werner Lucas 106
Gunther Lutzow 105
Eberhard von Boremski 104
Heinz Sachsenberg 104
Adolf Galland 103
Hartmann Grasser 103
Siegfried Freytag 102
Friedrich Geisshardt 102
Egon Mayer 102
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann+ 102
Josef Wurmheller 102
Rudolf Miethig 101
Werner Molders 101
Josef Priller 101
Ulrich Wernitz 101

Yes, they have one thing in common. They are all Germans.
I'm no Nazi, and in fact its a hobby of mine to belittle and humiliate neo-nazis on these IMDB message boards. I'm good at it.
But, my name is "NoRevisionism" and I wouldnt be true to my name if I didnt call this movie BS.
The Tuskeegee Airmen had 112 combined air to air victories. They did a fine job & nobody should try to take the service they gave the United States away from those good men.

But showing the German pilots as inept, ignorant,cant shoot straight, cross-eyed, foolish, stupid, bumbling, moronic fools is revisionist history.
And thats what I hate almost as much as I hate Nazis.

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

The Allies had fewer kills for various reasons. Among them, American pilots were not in combat nearly as long as many German pilots, partly because of later entry into the war and partly as a matter of policy, and they also did not have the "target rich environment" the Germans often did.

But even in comparisons between American units in Europe, the Red Tails come up short.

The 332nd Fighter Group, the Red Tails, was one of the lowest scoring US fighter groups in Europe. The 332nd had not one ace (no pilot credited with 5 or more aerial victories) among its 4 squadrons.

The top-scoring US fighter group in Europe was the 354th Fighter Group, which was credited with 701 aerial victories, compared with the 332nd's 112 (or 113?). On top of that, the 354th had one fewer squadron among its ranks than did the 332nd, yet it had more than 40 aces, compared to the 332nd's complete lack of aces.

I'm not sure why the 332nd was so low-scoring, but the movie gives some hints of what probably explains some of it, along with some misleading ideas. The movie puts forth the notion that they had no aerial combat before Anzio, which is not quite true, and also that they had fewer kills because they stayed closer to the bombers when they flew escort missions, which might hold some truth. Note that the old claim that no bombers were lost while escorted by the Red Tails has been proved false, but bomber losses while in the Red Tails escort were relatively low.

Live long and prosper.

[–] RoadKillBill1 12 years ago

Question...Are bombers shot down by fighters counted in the aces' score?
TNSTAAFL

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

Yes. They count equally with any other type.

Some argue they should count more because they are bigger and more expensive. Some argue that fighters should count more because they are more dangerous adversaries.

Live long and prosper.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

From what I understood, also 4 engine bombers gave more points toward decorations as well...

[–] RoadKillBill1 12 years ago

Wow! I never knew Adolph Galland was so low on that list. I always thought he was near the top. Thanks for that.

TNSTAAFL

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Not always that high; here are some LW pilots who flew almost exclusively in the West (the Channel to be precise)

Peter Crump: he joined JG26 in June 1942 & flew until May 1945; credited with 33 vics;

Karl Borris: as far as I can tell he joined JG26 in 1939 & flew to the very end; credited with 43 vics.

Adolph Glunz: Joined JG52 in 1941 but after 3 victories in the East he was transferred to JG26 in July 1941; 71 vics total.

Wilhelm Hofman: Joined JG26 in June, 1942; he scored 44 vics (one in Russia) before being KIA in March 1945;

Wilhelm Mayer: Joined JG26 in August 1941; KiA: January 1945; credited with 28 victories;

Waldemar Radener: Joined JG26 February 1943 & flew with them until he was transferred to JG300 in March 1945; credited with 37 vics total;

Gerhard Vogt: joined JG26 September 1941; flew until killed in January 1945; credited with 48 vics.

and for a change of pace, unit wise:

Rudiger Von Kirchinmayer: flew with JG1 & JG11 & credited with 50 vics (the first 9 were scored flying with an advanced training school).

So these guys (and others whom I dont' have the facts on right now: Naumann; Dietz; Ellenreider; Schildt; Soeffing; Prager) joined the Jagdwaffe between 1941 & 1942 & flew in the West to the bitter end in 1945 (or were killed that year); as you see their scores were not that much greater (and in some cases less) than many of the 'ace' pilots of the RAF, 8th & 9th AAF

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

That supports the notion that kills in the East were easier than in the West.

Live long and prosper.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Differing tactics; the East had a large spread out low level war that lent to the sneaky 'free hunt' tactics by pairs or flights of skilled & sneaky fighter pilots. I read somewhere that 'regular' Soviet fighter units were required to 'fly cover/fly escort' and not chase after anything-or else'; things got easier for the 'Guards' Regiments where were allowed to go 'looking for trouble'. In any case, a pair of Me109s often could sneak in for a shot at a couple of regiments if IL2 covered by a couple of regiments of Yaks; they wouldn't have any effect on the overall battle but they could knock off a couple of "trailers", run home, refuel, reload & repeat the feat.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

I also wanted to flesh out the details RE: the scores run up in the West; when the FW190 was introduced and before the Spit Mk V was replaced by the Spit Mk IV (particularly during the so called 'Focke Wulf Summer' of 1942), the level of superiority by the Luftwaffe fighter force was so marked that for a while the 'experten' were running up scores almost comparable to the East. The main difference being that combat in the West was done in at least fighter group strength & often multiple groups, at much higher altitudes and both side having 'ground control/radar support'; to wit large numbers of fighters being maneuvered by and 'covered' by ground control looking for an opening to strike. Inattention, inexperience or lack of situational awareness could get somebody killed quite quick.

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

before the Spit Mk V was replaced by the Spit Mk IV

I'm sure you meant to type "IX" instead of "IV" there.

Yes, Kurt Tank's Butcher Bird made quite an impression. Yet many German experten considered it inferior to the Bf-109.

The arrival of the Spit IX revealed that the BMW 801 was not so good at high altitude.

Live long and prosper.

[–] RoadKillBill1 12 years ago

What? The FW-190 inferior to the BF-109!? The FW had a greater speed, higher ceiling, faster rate of climb, and greater range than the 109. How exactly was it inferior?

TNSTAAFL

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

"I'm sure you meant to type "IX" instead of "IV" there."

O Snap! A typo!! Yes I did...and yeah many Eastern experten didn't like the FW--cockpit was too roomy I heard. But lots of pilots did like 'the Plowhorse' over 'Thoroughbred'.

nm

PS: Speaking of roomy cockpits, have you ever heard of this bit of P47 humor: Some folks have said that 'evasive action' in Thunderbolt consisted of undoing your straps & running around the cockpit.

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

PS: Speaking of roomy cockpits, have you ever heard of this bit of P47 humor: Some folks have said that 'evasive action' in Thunderbolt consisted of undoing your straps & running around the cockpit.

Never heard that one. Hilarious!

As for preference, and to address RKB's question above, preference is based on many things, some of which are hard to measure. The nose armament of the Bf-109 was popular, as the 190 emphasized wing armament while some variants of the 109 dispensed entirely with wing armament. Wing armament creates convergence problems. It's typically set to converge at one specific distance. If all the armament is in the nose, as in some 109 models or the P-38, for example, then this is never an issue because the armament is converged at any range. The experten liked to get close and hit the enemy in the most critical spot, like a radiator, with a well-aimed short burst. Because the wing guns usually won't be converged at close range, then that tactic won't work. Their favorite tactic is hindered.

The 190 had some nice features, too. It had a wider stance in the landing gear, reducing landing accidents. Many 109s were lost operationally because the narrow wheel track (a flaw of the F4F Wildcat and Spitfire, too). Take a look at how the landing gear folded on the 109 and the Spit, and then look at later fighters, like the FW-190 or Mustang.

The 190 had better rearward visibility than the 109, also.

As for performance, the stats of aircraft conceal as much as they reveal. One aircraft might have a higher top speed at some altitude, but is that the altitude where the fighting takes place? The P-40 had a reasonable top speed for its day, and very reasonable superficial performance specs, and was totally outclassed by the seemingly poorer-performing Zeke over New Guinea in 1942. But the Zeke appeared to outperform the F4F-4 Wildcat, yet the Wildcat had a favorable kill ratio against the Zeke over Guadalcanal and in the Solomons campaign. The P-40 (in most of its marks) was reasonably fast below 15,000 feet, and very weak above that, while the Wildcat struggled to get to altitude but performed fairly well above 20,000 feet, and of course, could out-dive a Zeke and was much more rugged. These intangibles added up to big dividends if the tactics were built around them.

Sorry to be long-winded. I love this stuff and tend to go on and on.

Live long and prosper.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

I have to add that the ME262 unit that flew against the 15thAAF raid to Berlin that the Redtails (and another fighter Group that spelled them) did not do too well--It was III/JG7 commanded by Theo Weissenberger & a training group commanded by Heinz Baer; from what I can tell they shot down several mustangs but didn't get into it with the 'heavies'.

[–] AKalinoff 12 years ago

These "victory" numbers of the German "Super Aces" are highly suspect. Their claims of shooting down up to a dozen aircraft in a single mission are almost impossible when ammunition and weapons rate of fire are considered. In fact the only way these numbers would be possible without mass exaggeration is if the system of "shared" kills was distributed from individual pilots to their unit commanders. That is, if a pilot from a certain section/flight shoots down an enemy aircraft, his unit commander would automatically receive a shared kill "victory" point because he was also involved in the battle, then the squadron commander would receive a similar "victory" point for each aircraft shot down in his squadron, because he contributed to the squadron's success(in some form). This is the only way to explain such numbers.

These numbers have to be divided by 3 or more to approach a more realistic number of actual kills.

FCG

Yes. They count equally with any other type.

Some argue they should count more because they are bigger and more expensive. Some argue that fighters should count more because they are more dangerous adversaries.

And yet I have read that Axis pilots(not necessarily German) were receiving 2 or more "victory" points based on the the type of aircraft shot down.

That supports the notion that kills in the East were easier than in the West.

And it was exactly an "easy kill" that ended the life of Otto Kittel.

It was more like the Luftwaffe did not punish pilots for exaggerating or claiming kills that were not their own on the Eastern Front because it had a great affect on propaganda. But the overall outcome was not in the Luftwaffe's favor in the end.

Differing tactics; the East had a large spread out low level war that lent to the sneaky 'free hunt' tactics by pairs or flights of skilled & sneaky fighter pilots. I read somewhere that 'regular' Soviet fighter units were required to 'fly cover/fly escort' and not chase after anything-or else'; things got easier for the 'Guards' Regiments where were allowed to go 'looking for trouble'. In any case, a pair of Me109s often could sneak in for a shot at a couple of regiments if IL2 covered by a couple of regiments of Yaks; they wouldn't have any effect on the overall battle but they could knock off a couple of "trailers", run home, refuel, reload & repeat the feat.

All Fighter Air Regiments in the Soviet Air Force no matter what their designation was were expected to protect the aircraft they were escorting. The highest "scoring" Fighter Regiment(with 810 claimed kills in the air and on the ground against Axis aircraft) - the 402nd Fighter Air Regiment - never became a "Guards" unit(it was nearly wiped out by the end of 1941 during the early war period). Even Guards Regiments were made up of at most 5 "good" aces, 6-12 "average" aces(usually less than 15 claimed kills by the end of the war), and the rest of the 30+ pilots likely never shot down more than 5 aircraft during the whole war(and themselves were shot down).

Soviet Air Force escort tactics changed as the war continued. Early in the war Bombers and Ground Attack aircraft frequently flew without any escort, because of the short range of early war fighter aircraft(I-16 or I-153). Then mid-war escorts were made up of 6-12 aircraft(Yak-7 or La-5) for up to 20+ bombers. By the end of the war there was a whole Fighter Air Regiment escorting a similar amount of bombers, with the individual squadrons deployed ahead, above, and below the bombers reducing the ability of the Luftwaffe "raiders" to achieve effective hit and run tactics. Also almost 30 IL-2 pilots/gunners achieved "ace" status with at least 5 claimed kills, it was not an easy target.

The main difference being that combat in the West was done in at least fighter group strength & often multiple groups, at much higher altitudes and both side having 'ground control/radar support'

Both the Axis and the Soviet Military used radar between 1942 and 1944 during the Siege of Leningrad. In fact Soviet pilots who served in that sector described how it was necessary to fly at almost tree top altitude to avoid being intercepted by German fighters who would "appear" from several directions when the altitude was higher.

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Kalashnikov!"

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

"...These "victory" numbers of the German "Super Aces" are highly suspect. Their claims of shooting down up to a dozen aircraft in a single mission are almost impossible when ammunition and weapons rate of fire are considered..."

All possibly true but a lot of the JG52 Experten's claims pan out fairly well--especially guys like Lipfert & Rall. Some units like JG-5 had ALOT of overclaiming; However...according To the Twelve O'Clock High Discussion board (you need to drop on there if you like Dubya Dubya Too stuff--we get authors & researchers from the US, Britain, Germany, Romania & Russia), when a pilot is getting close to a 'milestone' vic ( nearing the points for the ritterkruez; nearing 100, 150, 200 etc) the confirmation process gets more sloppy. As for pilots scoring too many vics in a day, in the East at least, many of these pilots had to fly multiple sorties to reach the total. Emil Lang for ex was 'credited/claimed' 18 in one day. He flew something like 5-6 sorties to reach that total.

[–] AKalinoff 12 years ago

I don't really believe the German ace claims for several reasons - the main being that if all of their numbers are added up then it comes out they shot down more aircraft then were actually in service during the war.

To use a specific example - the 4th Guards(13th until 1942) Fighter Air Regiment. In 1941 the 13th FAR suffered about 45 total(with no chance for repair) aircraft losses(out of about 60 fighter aircraft operating in 4 squadrons). In 1942(with RSI-3/4 radios installed and tactics changed) the now re-designated 4th Guards FAR suffered no more than 10 total aircraft losses. The 4th Guards FAR frequently fought aircraft of JG54.

The 4th Guards FAR did not receive any kind of "special treatment". The Regiment flew various types of obsolescent I-16 fighter aircraft until about June 1943. Since its production was stopped by February 1942 the 4th Guards did not receive any actual "new" aircraft for nearly a year. Aircraft replacements originated from other units - in late 1941 the 13th FAR received about 12 aircraft from 2 disbanded Independent Fighter Squadrons, throughout 1942 a small number of aircraft were transferred from several other units. Aircraft strength went from about 25 fighters in flying condition at the beginning of 1942 to about 18 at the beginning of 1943, when the I-16 was finally retired by the 4th Guards FAR there were about 5 in flying condition.

For reference - I-16 Type 24 fighter aircraft similar to those of the 4th Guards Regiment(picture modified to include weapons sight, which was missing in original):
http://s003.radikal.ru/i204/1209/32/fbf10893aecc.jpg

The I-16 aircraft flown by the 4th Guards FAR in 1941-43 were inferior almost in every technical detail to the German Bf-109F/G they faced, only exception was time to complete a turn. Field modifications had to be made where possible - RS-82 unguided rocket launchers were installed to compensate for the lack of cannons on most aircraft(except for a small number of I-16 Type 28's with 2 20mm cannons). Machinegun armament was likely upgraded(from 7.62mm to all 12.7mm) - this is I believe how Lieutenant(later Lieutenant Colonel) Vasily Golubev became the Regiment's highest scoring ace and later Regiment commander(in 1943-45), he served as a fighter pilot in the Soviet Air Force from 1940 until the end of WW2, claiming 39 total enemy aircraft kills during the war.

Until August 1942 the 4th Guards FAR defended the supply lines to the blockaded city of Leningrad against Luftwaffe bomber and strafing attacks, mostly operating within territory controlled by the Soviet Military. From August 1942 until 1943 the Regiment operated from an airfield on the Kronshtadt Naval base(Kotlin island) of the Soviet Navy in the Gulf of Finland(Baltic Sea), where its main task was defending Soviet ships from German and Finnish attacks. In February 1943 after receiving new La-5 fighters the Regiment began flying missions against Axis airfields in German and Finnish controlled territory. 30 new aircraft were sufficient for the 4th Guards to operate for 8 months without the need for replacements(total losses were approximately 14 aircraft[at least 1 because of a landing accident], with another 5 lost aircraft recovered and restored to flying condition). In this time there were numerous air battles with aircraft of JG54 and the Finnish Air Force, at least several squadrons of JG54 had re-armed with the FW-190. At this time JG54 was claiming hundreds of shot down aircraft almost every month, yet the 4th Guards Regiment never suffered a repeat of the losses of 1941. In 1944 the 4th Guards began an "island hopping" campaign in the Baltic Sea changing the airfields from which it operated(a fighter bomber FW-190 Gruppe even attacked an old airfield hoping to catch the 4th Guards with pants down, as the expression says). During this time (then)Major Golubev claims he shot down Luftwaffe "super-ace" Erich Rudorffer, who was trying to ambush 6 Pe-2 bombers his Regiment was escorting. According to Golubev Rudorffer was able to crash into the sea and avoided capture. No doubt in my mind that Rudorffer probably claimed he shot down all of the Pe-2's.

Reference - 4th Guards Regiment after being re-armed with the La-5F:
http://s017.radikal.ru/i405/1209/54/d6521f3b4837.jpg

Color artwork showing La-5FN aircraft like those flown by the 4th Guards Regiment:
http://s09.radikal.ru/i182/1209/e2/db7fad0c6f48.jpg

(you need to drop on there if you like Dubya Dubya Too stuff--we get authors & researchers from the US, Britain, Germany, Romania & Russia)

I do not have the benefit of much free time.

many of these pilots had to fly multiple sorties to reach the total. Emil Lang for ex was 'credited/claimed' 18 in one day. He flew something like 5-6 sorties to reach that total

Golubev flew 589 missions during the whole war, sometimes not leaving the cockpit of his aircraft until it was dark, and even then he flew several night missions. Yet he "only" claims to have shot down 39 enemy aircraft not hundreds.

Major Vasily Golubev around 1944:
http://s45.radikal.ru/i110/1210/54/deab8fe71abf.jpg

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Kalashnikov!"

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Come to the TOCH & have a civilized discussion with all of us;

As for not believing well...just bearing in mind that from 1943 there were a hell of a lot more Sturmoviks, PE2s & La/Yak in the air than there were Me109s of FW190s.

[–] Vulcans_Rule 12 years ago

I don't really believe the German ace claims for several reasons - the main being that if all of their numbers are added up then it comes out they shot down more aircraft then were actually in service during the war.

Fighter pilot claims tend to be exaggerated, generally by a factor of about two. That's what I noticed when comparing claimed kill totals in the Battle of Britain to the actual losses.

I'm not sure the Germans were any worse than most others.

Kills can be exaggerated for various reasons. Optimistic damage assessment. Unknown sharing of kills. Outright dishonesty.

Bomber gunners and AA gunners were much worse, claiming perhaps 10 times the number of actual kills, often because many would claim the same kill.

I have never seen a total for the number of kills claimed by the German pilots in the East. But the Red Air Force started the war with around 20,000 aircraft, built around 150,000 more, and received another 15,000 from the US and Britain. These are rough figures, and various sources give different figures. The total is huge.

Live long and prosper.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

According to the thread on Twelve O'Clock High, an 'very accurate' claimer is considered to be at least 70% accuracy. In any case to know for real you would have to examine each engagement against records on both sides. For argument's sake what will be considered 'accurate' claim: Shot down speaks for itself but do we also count 'bellied in but repairable', 'damaged so badly it had to be scrapped' & 'damaged but repairable' to be 'close enough to reality'?

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

In The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain, Stephen Bungay offers a theory that the number of false claims increases exponentially, as the number of aircraft engaged increases arithmetically.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Here is a rather long running thread at TOCH all about the subject of reliable claimers vs overclaimers:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=19878

Enjoy!

[–] jloper 9 years ago

I read somewhere that the highest ranking German ace who primarily fought against the British and Americans instead of against the Russians, was Jans Joachim Marseille, who had 158 victories; he's pretty far down your list. The German pilots' high scores were largely because they were outnumbered, and had a target rich environment (while Allied pilots had fewer German planes to shoot at), not because the best German pilots were better than the best Allied pilots. There's a book, I think it's Horrido by Trevor Constable and Raymond Toliver, that compares an American ace, Robert S. Johnson and a German ace, Adolf Galland, and concludes that if Johnson flew as many missions he could have scored as many victories as Galland. (I think historically Johnson scored 28 while Galland scored 103 or 104.)

[–] NoRevisionism 9 years ago

Thats assuming that Robert Johnson would have lived to complete as many missions as Galland. Thats the benefit of speculation & what if's. Its all guesswork & BS.

Its a combination of skill & luck to rack up as many kills as those German aces.

But, if you "speculate" that "if" American pilots had been in the war without break from 1939 to 1945 without "mission counts" or "theater time", as the Germans were, then YES, many more American pilots would have been high scoring aces.

And many more would have died because these experienced pilots wouldnt have been available to transfer back to help train new pilots.