MovieChat Forums > Red Tails (2012) Discussion > walked out when the guy said 'polesti'.

walked out when the guy said 'polesti'.



i was willing to suspend my disbelief in this film for quite a while. an hour at least.

i was willing to ignore the fact that nobody died, on screen, at all, despite dozens of air battles. this contradicts virtually anything you could ever find written, at all, about world war ii air combat. a good book is "Yeager", in which he describes the emotions that squads go through when people die - and a lot of people die. people die in training. people die on the trip over to europe. people die taking off. people die landing. oh, and people even die in combat. then they die after jumping out of the plane.

i was willing to overlook all this. it was just a movie, right? its like top gun. its got a love interest. its got humor. its got dudes battling it out and overcoming their personal issues etc etc etc.

i was willing to overlook this bizarre idea that somehow civilian transports were off target. actually, a lot of europe was a 'free fire' zone. you shot anything that moved. that was your mission. the nazis did not advertise the fact that they were shipping military equipment in trains or trucks. and besides, the war theory of the allies was to demoralize the civilian population - part of the purpose of the mass bomber raids, like the raid on Dresden.

Yeager talks about this in his book. he flat out basically says that the free fire missions would probably be considered a war crime, if we had lost the war.

i was willing to overlook this too. after all. it was a .. almost a kids movie. it was like GI Joe. it was like anything else, right? rah rah bam bam shoot em up, cry when your buddy gets burned, etc. (of course, again, nobody dies, we never see anyone die on screen, we never see a severed hand, a head being blown to pieces, eyeballs strewn on the landscape, hands, arms, legs, people with their guts hanging out, people drowning in their own blood)



Then there is the scene where the men are accepted into the white officers club. the white officer says 'oh yeah, you guys escorted us on the run to polesti'.


Polesti.


polesti.




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First of all, it was called Ploesti.

Second of all, almost nobody came back from Ploesti.

Third of all, there was no fighter escort to Ploesti.

Fourth of all, most military analysts think Ploesti was a mistake.

Ploesti was a low level bomb run, a hair brain scheme, to go deep into Axis territory, Romania to be exact, and blow up some oil production facilities so that the Nazis would have a harder time getting gasoline &c. It was mostly a horrific failure. Hundreds of pilots and bomber crews died on that mission. Dozens of planes were shot down. Dozens of planes were lost. They didn't 'made it back to base all beat up'. They didn't have long, meaningful conversations with their squad leader about the picture of Jesus in their cockpit. They just died. Their guts splattered all over Romanian fields. The people on the ground who died were not, mostly, soldiers, they were people who work in oil refineries. Romanians and others who probably couldn't care less about Hitler or Nazism, they just did what they had to do to survive. They died too. No dramatic moments of heroism, no shaking their fists at the wily Americans. Just death. Instantaneous, or in a ball of fire, thrashing around, feeling the air sucked from their lungs as their flesh is incinerated from their body.


And the people who made this movie... I


i guess.. well.


i guess none of this was ...

important.

to them.





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i don't know what you're talking about, but you sound like you do. this is what i know: try before you buy.

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[deleted]

Very thoughtful and factually correct comment.
Still, this was not one run, wasn't an act but a process.
Destruction of Romanian oil refineries took almost an year to execute and Allies did it nicely.
Maybe there was a not that good a raid but the overall operation crippled the entire Eastern front.

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You are right. None of it was important to them.

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Movies about stuff like you described should be made. It's ridiculous to think that after Steven Spielberg introduced the tip of the iceberg of the reality of war in Saving Private Ryan 13 years ago, his friend George Lucas still doesn't get it, and insists on making these stupid propaganda movies that belong in the 1940's or 50's.

Reality of war has a lot to offer in terms of film-making, and ignoring it completely to create a cartoonish CGI fest of an "action" movie just dishonours every serviceman this movie tries so hard to give credit to.

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Second of all, almost nobody came back from Ploesti.

Third of all, there was no fighter escort to Ploesti.

Fourth of all, most military analysts think Ploesti was a mistake.


You are mistaken here. There were multiple attacks on Ploesti. You are thinking of the famous long-range strike using B-24s from Cyrenaica in 1943, and you are correct about that one mission. But later the 15th AF hit Ploesti from Italy many times until August 1944, and these missions were generally escorted.

The 332nd Fighter Group escorted at least one mission to Ploesti.


Live long and prosper.

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"You are mistaken here. There were multiple attacks on Ploesti. You are thinking of the famous long-range strike using B-24s from Cyrenaica in 1943, and you are correct about that one mission. But later the 15th AF hit Ploesti from Italy many times until August 1944, and these missions were generally escorted.

The 332nd Fighter Group escorted at least one mission to Ploesti. "

yes sir!!! all you say is true

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Thank you for correcting all of the erroneous information.
I am a WWII buff, and I always appreciate correct facts.

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On one of those runs, probably the 15thAF one , a Major Hatch escorting in P38, claimed 5 FW190s over Ru/o/mania...

Well, turns out he actually did down 5 enemy fighters...but not FW190s...
Rumanian IAR80s, which looked very vaguely like an FW190

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They apparently escort a group of B17's from some vague location in the South of Italy to Berlin later too, then get jumped by two-dozen ME-262's of which they gun down 5 for the loss of a single fighter. So you didn't even get to see the most absurd part of the movie!

Why would they make so much fiction out of actual historical fact is a mystery to me. This movie was painful to watch on so many levels. So much money and CG pissed away for a far less compelling story than the ACTUAL events.

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They apparently escort a group of B17's from some vague location in the South of Italy to Berlin later too, then get jumped by two-dozen ME-262's of which they gun down 5 for the loss of a single fighter. So you didn't even get to see the most absurd part of the movie!


I'm not sure what you mean by "most absurd part of the movie".

Two 15th Air Force P-51 fighter groups on the mission from southern Italy to Berlin on March 24, 1945 engaged Me-262s. One group shot down three Me-262s but lost three P-51s, with two pilots killed and one captured. The other group shot down six Me-262s and suffered no losses.

The group with the six to zip score was the 31st.

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As you know, Mustang and Spitfire pilots were credited with many Me-262 kills. The 262 was more optimal for destroying bombers than fighters. Some seem to think the Me-262 had an easy time with Allied fighters. In truth, it was designed to run away from them.

Live long and prosper.

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Let's not forget that a lot of 262-kills (prolly most of them) were scored against jets landing and taking off, when they were low and slow. Once those things got up to speed, they were virtually untouchable to any piston-engined AC of the time.

The strafing of 262s landing/taking off was so common that the Luftwaffe even employed flights of piston-engined fighters to cover jet-fields from such attacks (like the famous "Papageien-Staffel").

Yes: There were A2A-kills of 262s and the 262 wasn't a plane to dogfight in. High wing loading, immense speed advantage and touchy engines that could flame out when you worked the throttles too quickly meant that you didn't slow down in this thing to turn with enemy AC. Unless you were inexperienced or dumb.

The statistics alone show that the 262 was anything but an easy kill:

Me 262 pilots claimed a total of 542 Allied kills[8] (although higher claims are sometimes made)[Notes 1] against the loss of about 100 Me 262s.



S.

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The statistics alone show that the 262 was anything but an easy kill:

Me 262 pilots claimed a total of 542 Allied kills[8] (although higher claims are sometimes made)[Notes 1] against the loss of about 100 Me 262s.


Those statistics compare claims (542) to actual losses (about 100). That's a bit unfair because claims tend to be exaggerated by a factor of 2 or so. The USAAF fighter groups alone claimed 120 Me-262 kills. Add to that claims by USAAF bombers and the entire RAF (perhaps the Soviets claimed some, too), and total of claims is well over 100, perhaps over 200. So the 542 claims should be compared to some figure more like 200, not 100, if you want to compare apples to apples (claims to claims).

Also, many of those 542 claimed kills by Me-262s were against bombers, the Me-262's main target, where the kill ratio would be greater than against fighters.

But in the end, you are correct that the 262 was no easy kill.

Live long and prosper.

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Yup.. old problem, isn't it?. ;)

It's kinda hard to figure out the *actual* kills made by a specific plane. Overclaiming is an issue of course but also the very defintion of "kill". A LW fighter might very well shoot up a bomber and then see it fly for home. No kill for him. Even though that thing's barely flyable/has suffered casualties/will be a total write-off if it makes it back to base (which happened quite often with tough birds like the B-17). Is that a kill the Allies suffer? I'm sure it is, but the LW wouldn't count that as a kill.

BTW: The LW was very aware of the dangers of overclaiming and thus had a strict system for claim submission: No witness = no kill credit. They also used guncams quite extensively. Just remembered that I have a pretty good selection of those on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9gSxyidM9g

Using claims made by the Allies on a specific plane wouldn't really work, either. I dunno about the 262's case, but there have been quite a few examples of huge overclaiming in WW2... going as far as pilots/gunners claiming a lot more kills than there were enemy planes operating in their sector on that day. So while it's flawed, the losses recorded by the opposition (in this case the LW) is stll the most reliable source IMO.

Still: Showing 262s dropping like flies/Zeros to a squad of P-51s is pretty silly. One might argue that they were all rookie pilots, but that's unlikely with the 262 which most of the LW understood to be a poor plane for the uninitiated. Hence Adolf Galland's concept of JV44.




S.

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Still: Showing 262s dropping like flies/Zeros to a squad of P-51s is pretty silly.


Not to nitpick, but this is one of my many pet peeves about this movie: there are no squads in fighter units. In World War II, two fighters made an element, two elements made a flight. Flights make up squadrons, squadrons make up groups.

As I pointed out in the "100 things we learned from Red Tails" thread, this movie had a squadron commander who didn't know the difference between a squad (thirteen infantrymen ranging in rank from private to staff sergeant) and a squadron [32 to 48 fighter pilots ranging in rank from flying officer (a warrant rank specific to WWII) to lieutenant colonel (the highest authorized rank for a squadron commander)]!

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Still: Showing 262s dropping like flies/Zeros to a squad of P-51s is pretty silly. One might argue that they were all rookie pilots, but that's unlikely with the 262 which most of the LW understood to be a poor plane for the uninitiated. Hence Adolf Galland's concept of JV44.


It always cracks me up when people start going on and on and on about how something that really happened is "silly" or "absurd". Google "March 24, 1945 Berlin raid". It was a very bad day for the Germans--their elite jet squadrons getting their butts handed to them by a bunch of black guys was the least of it.

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I clipped this from one of my earlier posts; all info courtesy of Aviation Historian/Author Donald Caldwell:

The ME262 unit that flew against the 15thAAF raid to Berlin (Which some cynics took as a publicity grab by the forgotten 15th) that the Redtails (and another fighter Group that spelled them) did not do too well--It was III/JG7 commanded by Theo Weissenberger & elements of an operational training group commanded by Heinz Baer (Both Weissenberger & Baer were highly decorated & experienced pilots); from what I can tell they shot down several mustangs but didn't get into it with the 'heavies' & III/JG-7 suffered a number of losses as well.

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I clipped this from one of my earlier posts; all info courtesy of Aviation Historian/Author Donald Caldwell:

The ME262 unit that flew against the 15thAAF raid to Berlin (Which some cynics took as a publicity grab by the forgotten 15th) that the Redtails (and another fighter Group that spelled them) did not do too well--It was III/JG7 commanded by Theo Weissenberger & elements of an operational training group commanded by Heinz Baer (Both Weissenberger & Baer were highly decorated & experienced pilots); from what I can tell they shot down several mustangs but didn't get into it with the 'heavies' & III/JG-7 suffered a number of losses as well.


That raid was the least of Jerry's worries that day.

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I agree...the 15th's effort was pretty small compared to the 'Mighty Eighth's'; and of course the Russians were practically on the City's doorstep by then, no?

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I agree...the 15th's effort was pretty small compared to the 'Mighty Eighth's'; and of course the Russians were practically on the City's doorstep by then, no?


That was the day that the US and British started crossing the Rhine. The Berlin raid was in part a diversion to distract the Luftwaffe from the 16,000 paratroopers who dropped into Germany that day.

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They apparently escort a group of B17's from some vague location in the South of Italy to Berlin later too, then get jumped by two-dozen ME-262's of which they gun down 5 for the loss of a single fighter. So you didn't even get to see the most absurd part of the movie!


What was "absurd" about it? According to the official history, on March 24, 1945 the 332nd and several other fighter groups escorted B-17s of the 15th Air Force on the longest mission of the war, a strike on the Mercedes-Benz tank works in Berlin. The B-17s were attacked by the Me-262s of JG-7, with the result that the Germans traded 3 Me-262s for one P-51.

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To the OP...you walked out of a movie because they slightly mispronounced the name of one place? If I believed you (which I don't), you're an idiot. You spent $10+ to see a movie, and then walked out of it because of a mispronunciation. Right...

Did you walk out of Bambi because the animals talk, and it offended your suspension of disbelief?

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"First of all, it was called Ploesti.

Second of all, almost nobody came back from Ploesti.

Third of all, there was no fighter escort to Ploesti.

Fourth of all, most military analysts think Ploesti was a mistake. "

Why would it surprise you that a character would mispronounce the name of a city? It really could be considered accurate for a person in a foreign land to mispronounce the name of a place he isn't familiar with.

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Nevermind that...the OP seems to think there was only ONE raid on the Ploesti Refineries---the infamous low level raid known as "Tidal Wave".

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