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Children of Earth - what would have happened in America


Having seen this a couple times I got to thinking about how we as Americans would have responded to our children being taken.

With the sheer number of weapons available to the populace I don't see more than 10-20% of the kids being taken before the armed population would react. With even a small portion of the population responding with arms, I don't think the military could respond to quell the uprising in time.

This is quite the opposite that we witnessed (in the show) in the UK where there are few weapons in private hands.. I have little doubt that the citizens would be largely helpless to mount a useful resistance in a short time.

What do you think?

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I think you have an obvious political agenda.

Arms are irrelevant in this situation. History shows that an unarmed population can rise up against an armed force and win, if they feel like it. And if you watched CoE, you'll see that the British people did rise up and fight back when their children were being taken.

However, consider the situation. They weren't told why it was happening. Unless you know there's a reason to fight, you're not going to, whatever multitudes of guns you've got lying about in your house. It needs for somebody to spread the news, and once they have, damned right people are going to fight; and they'll do it with table legs and kitchen knives and stones, and by sheer force of numbers. You don't need a gun to make a point.



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Not disputing I have a political perspective but what we saw was pretty weak resistance. I would also argue that you have a political perspective as well. So lets not either act as if we are somehow lily white in the argument.

An unarmed population could over time rise up, but if you need action NOW against an armed force I just don't see it being near as effective.

Given the situation where we have soldiers scooping up kids and forcibly putting them on the bus against the mom's wishes, it simply wouldn't take much to get people to fight and I don't think I would want to go machine guns against "table legs and kitchen knives and stones, and by sheer force of numbers." You aren't making a point, you are securing your and your children's liberty. As a further point, how do you think the military would have fared if large segments of the population opened up on the from their homes. It makes it REALLY hard to go get the kids if you are pinned down taking fire.

Believe what you will but the situation would have been very different here in the states.

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Yes I think so too. A lot more people would have died. But I still think that's a bad thing.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdEx87fY04w

Fabricati Diem, Pvnc !

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The initial question is still avoiding the main issue, though. Guns wouldn't have changed anything. Why would citizens start shooting soldiers who were taking their children to be innoculated against diseases? Nobody knew that their children were being taken to be sacrificed to aliens, so nobody knew that there was anything to fight about.

Once the British people knew that there was something to fight about, they fought. And won. And yes, once the American people knew that there was something to fight about, they would also have fought. And presumably also won. So what difference would the guns have made?



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I couldn't disagree with you much more than I do.. You are viewing this from what appears to be a very different cultural perspective. Trust in the government has been eroded and soldiers preventing kids from reaching parents would not be viewed "well", this inoculation story doesn't really help, there was no rush and certainly no rational need to have soldiers prevent contact with the parents. If their was a risk of "infection" then that ship would have already sailed DAYS before since the kids had been home that morning..

I'm sorry, but this would have played out VERY differently here in the states..

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So you think the answer would be for both sides to start killing each other? Typical American gun-lover.

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Wow, you made a lot of assumptions there.

I don't want to see anyone die. However to protect my children, I would kill anyone if I thought it was necessary to save them. And any parent who doesn't say the same thing doesn't deserve to be called a parent.

I think that how this played out in the show in the UK would simply not be successful here. If it smelled hinky people would keep their kids home and the soldiers would not have it so easy going door to door.

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You'd be throwing your life away if you thought you could put up any significant resistance.

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Oh I disagree with that. It wouldn't take much to break the resolve of the government. You wouldn't even have to have a significant portion of the population resisting. The saturation of available weapons is pretty high. Perhaps because you live in one of the most corrupt states in the US it colors your views, not sure.. If the criminals in Chicago kill each other for virtually nothing how likely do you think they would take up arms to protect their kids? Talk about a no brainer..

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You think Washington is one of the most corrupt states? LOL WTF? Seriously. Washington is one of the least corrupt.

Wow, you're out of your mind.

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Dear DreamGoddess Lindsey, American gun nuts actually dream every night and pray every morning to take up arms against the government. And when they finally dream up a rationalization to attack the government, they expect to have a big day long orgasm because they will finally be so satisfied.
Never going to happen.






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Heh, really? I think you need to learn more about America before you try to comment on it, and the possibility of resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrLesliedyke

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Heh, really? I think you need to learn more about America before you try to comment on it, and the possibility of resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrLesliedyke

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Law enforcement and the military in the US own approximately 4 million firearms.

The general population of the US owns over 300 million firearms.

If you think the citizenry couldn't put up significant resistance you are a fool. Oh, and if you wouldn't be willing to fight to the death to protect your children you don't deserve to have them.

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"However to protect my children, I would kill anyone if I thought it was necessary to save them. And any parent who doesn't say the same thing doesn't deserve to be called a parent."

You seriously think that someone who wouldn't resort to murder to save their child doesn't deserve to be called a parent? The child would get bullied and need to live in an orphanage at best, or on the streets as worst, after you've been arrested. Plus, you're teaching your child that murder is a solution to things.

Typical American answer, "murder is justified because of X". I bet you wouldn't dare to say that in real life, but your government has been shown to arrest people they think are dangerous from online posts, with the "terrorist" excuse. So now that you've already said it, it might be too late for you.

Not to mention all the tons of sick people who posts "lets go and kill that pedo/murderer painfully. i wish all of them were dead." would be after your life once you get out of prison ;P

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"You seriously think that someone who wouldn't resort to murder to save their child doesn't deserve to be called a parent? The child would get bullied and need to live in an orphanage at best, or on the streets as worst, after you've been arrested. Plus, you're teaching your child that murder is a solution to things."

It IS a solution sometimes, to argue it is NEVER the solution is to be utterly naive. If I deemed you had to die in a given situation so that my child or myself to live, I would sacrifice your life without issue. Also you seem to think that I might receive punishment for that action, this misses the fact that you can act in the defense of yourself OR others, just because you might live in a place that doesn't allow that changes nothing to me. The decision to take a life is NOT taken lightly, and I KNOW this from personal experience, even to draw is not taken lightly.

Actually I HAVE said that in real life, I can think of many situations where taking a life is absolutely justified. You attempt to hurt me or my family and I will end you, that is just one case. However virtually all of those justifications are "in the moment", reactions to situations happening NOW, not at some point in the past.

There are some situations where you might be justified taking actions pre-emptively, however, you also have to recognize that you will likely have to pat a price for that.

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What an ignorant response. Way to add nothing to the conversation and look like a bigot in the process.

If soldiers were taking kids away from their parents by force in the US the citizens, who are armed, would defend those children with lethal force. If you wouldn't take up arms to defend your child you're a lousy parent.

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Is that what happened in Germany?

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Given there are people in America who are opposed to their children having inoculations under any circumstance. People who believe putting fluoride in the water is a communist plot. People who think there's a plan cede power to the United Nations and have their troops round up Americans into camps and then kill them, I think the shooting would start here fairly early. I also think the US government would be shocked at the level of hardware that would be dug out of hiding and used against them.

Likewise, in Torchwood 4, I think when the German people found out there were extermination camps being set up on their soil to cremate people, they would revolt and start fighting their government over it. Especially in the western former FDR part, less so in the eastern DDR part.

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While probably not enough in and of itself, the scene where the kid is scooped up by the soldier while he was running to mommy wouldn't have to be repeated very often before there would be severe armed resistance. And with the ubiquity of camera phones you could guarantee there would be several videos of it.

I would also agree that it Season 4 I would think the Germans would be especially sensitive to extermination camps, especially since they get all in a tizzy over virtually anything Nazi related.

I stand by my initial assessment, it would have played out much differently here in the states.

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You'd fall for the old Compulsory Shootin' Camp line no trouble.

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Okay, I just rewatched S3 and have a few new comments.

When the people in Ianto's sister's neighborhood are taking on the troops I noticed there were a lot of cars available. If I were doing this, the first I'd do is fire up a few cars and drive them into/through the troops at speed instead of fighting them. Much more effective.

Even if they managed to shoot the driver they'd still get mowed down. If they didn't/couldn't shoot they'd have to scatter to try and avoid getting run over, with little success. They'd certainly have more pressing things to do than trying to grab the kids, like trying to stay alive. In a situation like this, you use whatever advantage you can get.

As for PC Andy, I have to wonder why instead of taking off his uniform and joining the fight, he didn't break out any firearms he had access to and start shooting? In for a penny, in for a pound.

Surely in this day and age, even in the UK, police have arms lockers in police cars for emergency situations. He'd have been able to put down at least two to four soldiers before he'd need to take cover from return fire. They wouldn't expect a police officer to be shooting that them.

More importantly, he could have taken out whomever was in command, causing confusion among the troops and giving the people an advantage.

I'm assuming the BBC wouldn't want to show that sort of thing though.

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Surely in this day and age, even in the UK, police have arms lockers in police cars for emergency situations.

Good Lord no. Guns are only issued to the British police in exceptional circumstances, and then only to officers with special training. Guns in police cars would be a terrible idea. They'd make the cars a target. Plus it would mean that every police officer would have to be trained to use them. Many officers choose not to take arms training if it's offered. Firing a gun is not why you join the British Police.

You will sometimes see armed police on patrol at key London rail stations. It's been that way since the IRA were on the offensive. Royal details have weapons as well, although I don't think they always carry them. Otherwise, there are specific armed units that are deployed as and when required. If PC Andy had gone to get weapons, he'd have had a long walk.



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http://www.46664.com/

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I think the question is flawed because it is based on a world that is entirely unrealistic. We are assuming that the military would willingly take action against the nation's citizens. I don't think that would happen. Not in the UK, not in the States. Many of the men and women in the police and armed services are good people, people who are capable of making their own decisions. I do not believe that these people are blind sheep, not for a moment. They would not mindlessly follow orders like this. Neither do I believe that the government of either country is so villainous that they would actually make such a compromise...that they would ever agree to such terms. I think we would fight to the last man.

As such, "Children of Earth" presents an unrealistically bleak view of humanity. A view in which the individual does not matter; where the main goal is to have as many people as possible live for as long as possible. A place where the police, military, government etc. are willing to do anything to protect the majority.

I don't think this represents reality.

Both the UK and the US value freedom, liberty, and equality...not tyranny by majority. Moreover, most people recognize that, if the purpose of life is simply to live, then there is no purpose to life. If we are willing to sacrifice what is most precious to us-- freedom, liberty, all hope for a better future-- simply to live and ensure the continuance of society...we do not deserve to live and society should not continue. We may not be perfect, we may infringe on people's rights in some instances, but we are far better than the dystopian vision presented in "Children of Earth.


Now, you could say "yes, but what if this did happen? Wouldn't the UK fare worse than the US because of their strict gun laws?" No. They would not. Because if people in the UK truly believed that their government was capable of such atrocities, if they truly had such a bleak view of the men and women in the military and police, then they would find guns. And they would start finding them now. They would be armed long before such an issue surfaced. And they would be ready

As a side note, I don't think we can use history to judge how this would play out. First, society has changed A LOT in the last half century. I'd like to think that we learned something from Hitler's genocide...something about standing together and fighting for one another. Also, "Children of Earth" depicts an immediate alien threat, not a slow process of indoctrination like WWII. There would be no time to convince people that sacrificing the children was the correct action. People would see their children being taken away, their neighbors children being taken away, and they would immediately rise up. As would the military, as would the police, as would everyone.

I am generally a pessimist, but I believe that we are better than this...our societies are better than those that are presented in "Children of Earth." The question is pointless because the world presented in this show does not exist.

AND I hope it never does.

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You portray an interesting point about the military willingly going along. Remember what they were told in the show, if they refused their kids absolutely would be included, we can debate how far such a threat could go to force the issue, but undoubtedly many would go along for fear of losing their kids. You will also notice that at least some of the police were clearly going against the military, we can speculate that they were not "in" on what was going on. But either way some revolted. As for whether the US or the UK governments would go along, I would hope not. But for the sake of the argument I was saying they had.

I think there are wide swaths of humanity who simply care about nothing but themselves and their immediate families, they would slaughter a million to protect them. Governments tend to think of protecting themselves and their power, this is well established. They also tend to think about numbers and not people. There are also many people who would protect themselves and their families but also recognize a duty to their fellow man, I'm not sure enough of them are in high government positions to matter though..

I'm not sure I can go along with your view that they would be finding guns now, most weapons are in the hands of the military and very difficult to get ahold of otherwise. I also tend to believe that as long as people aren't way too inconvenienced that they get complacent and accept the intrusions until they finally cross a line for enough people and they collectively say "ENOUGH!" The downside is that this complacency largely prevents preparation, so as long as people are fat, dumb, and happy for the most part the government can get away with a lot. As for the US, we are already fairly well armed and have been pushed about as far as can be on the gun issue.

I am a realist, some countries would go along, many would not.

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An interesting point. I agree that some of the police and military would go along, and some wouldn't, depending on who was informed of the circumstances, who was particularly morally offended by the idea of the government forcibly taking the kids for 'vaccination' against a dangerous, contagious disease.

I think it's entirely possible that the real-life government WOULD do such a thing if there was a legitimate threat of a lethal viral contagion. The possibility for everyone to be killed is too great not to. For example, the World Health Organisation estimate that is someone with Ebola was to get on a plane, 90% of the world's population would be dead within 6 months.

So, I'm more surprised by the fact the soldiers weren't in Bio-Hazard suits tha the fact they went along with their orders.

Those that knew about the real plan to serve them up as a sacrifice for an alien enemy that humanity had ZERO possible chance of defeating, or even probably injuring- well, I imagine most of those with children would go along with it in exchange for the promise that their own children not be part of the 10% sacrificed. Especially, given that they were threatened that their children would definitely be sacrificed if they rebelled. Those without children, and those horrified enough to risk their own children to save other people's- they might well fight back. But I doubt many would. There are innumerable examples throughout ancient and modern history of soldiers committing horrific, immoral, violent acts, against event their own countrymen, because they were ordered to, or because of the 'mob-mentality'. The bombing of non military targets; Tienanmen square; soldiers beating and even raping non-combatants, etc. I honestly believe that even those few who knew about the real purpose of the mass kidnapping, and were outraged enough to want to fight back- most would still just follow orders, because that is what they are trained to do, even it they don't understand or agree with them.

While some families may fight back, again, most had no reason to. They believed their children were taken to be made SAFER. To be protected. That is a powerful motivator. Then there is the natural, psychological deference to authority figures that most humans have evolved with. I honestly don't believe many families would fight back either. Only those few who actually knew of what the real intentions were.

I disagree most with your closing sentence. I think the vast, overwhelming majority of countries WOULD go along with it. The democratic governments would, as you suggested, think mostly of maintaining their power, spinning the events to make them look good, and in terms of numbers not individuals. Dictatorships would think of nothing but personal good, and would only care that the dictator's own children, and probably the children of his government and army/police force (so as to maintain his rule) were not taken.

I do not think that a single country on Earth would not accede to the 456's demands. Knowing we cannot beat them militarily, I believe that EVERY nation would give in and gather the necessary sacrifices, then only focus on maintaining their power by pouring money into the military and space budgets so as to 'prevent such an atrocity ever happening again'.

I wouldn't be surprised if almost every country on Earth became a dictatorship based on those ideals, centered around a public figure who proclaimed ignorance of the true goal of the kidnaps. Again, fear is one of the most powerful motivators of human behaviour.

I am a realist. Everyone would go along. You are a humanist with far too much faith in the inherent goodness of people.

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"You portray an interesting point about the military willingly going along. Remember what they were told in the show, if they refused their kids absolutely would be included"

Their kids were already included. They were rounding up whole schools, not rounding up whole schools EXCEPT for the kids in those schools that had military parents.

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With the sheer number of weapons available to the populace I don't see more than 10-20% of the kids being taken before the armed population would react


Frankly, in reality there would be uprisings and riots everywhere when the various governments started trying to round up all the children demanded. The ones in the USA would just be more violent because of the prevalence of firearms in civilian hands.

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I love COE, but it required a huge suspension of disbelief. The series takes place over the course of 5 days. There is no way that the rounding up of children could be organized on a global scale in such a short amount of time. There is also the obvious issue of mistrust between governments. Not every government is going to believe the US and the UK when they say that aliens are demanding 10% of the worlds children. And even if they did believe it, they may choose to go down fighting rather than give up their kids, which would put pressure on other countries to increase their number in order to meet the demands of the 456.

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I think your position is well thought out. It did require a large amount of suspension of disbelief. As I was watching it my thoughts turned to how this would have played out here in the US (hence the question here). Given the sheer distrust of large segments of our society and the 88 guns per 100 people ratios I think it would have played out VERY differently. They can't really come in guns blazing but people could certainly put up a STIFF resistance..

I think there would be segments of the world who would say NO, so the entire plan would ultimately fail. Even in the show the UK was having trouble coming up with the numbers by just dumping the stupid kids and kids from otherwise undesirable parents or places. Even in the US there are areas that would absolutely fight.

So I think your point is right on the mark..

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Just think about the list of countries Frobisher rattled off.... no way that list of countries would agree on the time of day let alone something of any significance. I found the whole COE arc very troubling, not just for the reasons raised here. But one of the jobs of a piece like this is to make us think, and it obviously did that.

There are some in the society who think the shutdown/curfew of the city of Boston after the Marathon bombing and subsequent search for the perpetrators was a "dry run" to see if the populace would be docile and compliant. Some of the same factions of society rail against the government for not doing enough to protect us from terrorists. It's truly a no-win situation.

As for myself, there are only half as many guns in this Texas house as there are people (but that's only because the two little ones can't handle the recoil yet :-) ).

We will not go gentle into that good night (with apologies to Dylan Thomas)

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I found the whole COE arc very troubling, not just for the reasons raised here. But one of the jobs of a piece like this is to make us think, and it obviously did that.


The most troubling part and bad bad writing was simply sidelining Torchwood and Jack. He could have found either a better way to serve the aliens and/or found a quicker and less sacrificial way to kill em quicker.

Also, many of the subplots made no sense at all. It would have been all over the internet that the selection of kids wouldn't be so random at all. Rather than wasting my family I would have wasted the Elites or went to the press.


Whatever trust England build with Torchwood/Jack, they lost it completely by this storyline. What, 200 years of saving the earth because some boneheads behave like *beep* The next time, with the next Alien attack, Jack stays on the spaceship and watched them enslave everybody - just to make a point they should start in England first.

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[deleted]

The Doctor can't be there every time. He can't possibly know every time that the Earth is in danger. And how could Jack contact him? The whole point is that he had no way to contact the Doctor at this time. The Doctor abandoned him on that space station, and Jack crashed to Earth in 1879, and had to live throughout the twentieth century hoping for a chance to meet with the right version of the Doctor, so he could find out what the hell was going on, and why he's immortal now. During that time, he became disillusioned. It's all been there in the story all along.



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http://www.46664.com/

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[deleted]

I'm not sure about the reaction. The people have all seen that their kids are somewhat possessed or ill or something and that this is on a pandemic level. They also know that something was going to happen the next day, but they still don't know, what is going on. I'm not so sure if everybody would have the feeling, the government is going to do something bad to the children.
On another note I think the displayal of the army wasn't very good. There may be fathers in there aswell. And they wouldn't behave like deporting the kids. Especially the scene with the mothers was a bit unbelievable.

For the difference between America and Europe: I don't think the guns in private use would have made any other difference than more dead bodies. This isn't the Zombie-apocalypse. The army could still easily overcome everyone, but would have to kill the parents if they refuse to let their children go and fire weapons.
In my personal opinion the escalation with guns is also easier to deal with than an unarmed (at least not with guns) riot.

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