MovieChat Forums > Los cronocrímenes (2008) Discussion > The begining, we were tricked.

The begining, we were tricked.

posted 11 years ago by markstrange
27 replies | jump to latest

Okay so I saw the movie yesterday and then came up here to read everyones theory about the beginning of the loop or at least at what point we beging to witness the loop. Most would suggest that it is when Hector 1 sees the girl in the forest that that sets things in motion. But in actual fact it started earlier in that day.

first, let's go back to the start of the film when we see Hector driving home from a shopping errand, the scene switches over to him in his driveway picking up his purchases that fell out of the back of his vehicle. It would appear that the hatchback opened for some reason but it's not explained.

Now let's fast forward in the film when we see Hectore 2 driving down the road (in the scientists car), he spots the girl on the bike and slams on his brakes skidding the car to the edge of the road with the tail end of the vehicle sticking out towards the middle of the road. He sits there for a few seconds then something (another vehicle) hits him from behind sending the car down the slope into the woods and into a tree. The girl comes rushing over to see if he's okay and he wraps himself in bandages, goes with her into the woods, makes her strip down etc. etc.

So, if you've been following along you have probably figured out by now that Hector 1 was driving the car that hit Hector 2 sending him into the woods.
(we never see who hit Hector 2's car just like we never see the reason why the back of Hector 1's car opened up spilling out the contents)

So at least for the time period of the film, we enter the story in the middle of a loop where Hector 1 was setting things in motion because if he didn't hit Hector 2, hector 2 and the girl wouldn't have met.

Now I'm not saying this is the beginning of the loop, it is the beginning of us witnessing a section of the loop.

Who know's how/when the actual loop first began. That part is giving me a whopping headache!

[–] CStefanoF 11 years ago

Watch the movie again, this time pay attention.

You think Hector 1 casually drives someone off the road, only to go home to unload groceries? It's shown in the film that Hector 3 drives Hector 2 off the road in the van he got at the scientist's lab.

You must've tricked yourself.

[–] Pythe 10 years ago

I agree, it's made pretty darn obvious Hector 3 drove Hector 2 off the road. OP must have been out of the room making a sandwich or something.

---------------------
"People either loved us or they hated us...or they thought we were okay."

[–] krsnik_33 10 years ago

TIL that OP is a woman.

[–] bobbobbob123 10 years ago

TIL that OP is a woman.

I did NOT see that twist coming!

[–] thebigmouth 11 years ago

There is no "beginning" to the loop. Hector's time travel has already happened -- it's already a part of history -- by the time he sees the girl through his binoculars.

TV: http://ihatemydvr.blogspot.com
LOST:http://eyemsick.blogspot.com

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bobbobbob123 10 years ago

There is no "beginning" to the loop.

Unless he is traveling to another universe, of course there is a beginning. There is one continuity of events in the timeline, the events happening from A to B to C. It's just that at one moment, a second (and third) Hector appear out of nowhere, which is THE beginning. What there is none of is a "loop". (Sure, from Hector's POV it's looped, but not from any outside observer.) Likewise, there is an end, when the last Hector enter's the machine and disappears.

[–] Takeshi-K 7 years ago

I thought it began when he looked first through the binoculars.

[–] Professor59 10 years ago

Well, as much as I'd like to see the closure of how the SUV hatch pops open, I guess we'll have to let it go.
No Hector 4, no invisible plot complicator we haven't met, nothing. Hector 3 is wiped out from the whole ordeal and just happy to have his life and his wife back, even at the cost of the girl on the bike.

I was hoping after he'd set up the ladder, that he'd have his wife lie down and pretend to be dead so Hector 2 would panic and run off to the silo again. That way, nobody would have had to die. Oh well.

[–] hardseasailor 10 years ago

does he have his wife and life back,or does he understand he is caught in the loop forever.

[–] PsychoticDestruction 9 years ago

He "was" caught in the loop forever, not "is", if the loop somehow doesn't work (Which theoretically should be impossible, it HAS to work) he wouldn't be there in the first place, he'd still be at home out on the garden relaxing at the start of the movie.

[–] Samus Aran 9 years ago

It was an ugly moment when I realised that he was setting up the forest girl to take the fall. It was a beautiful moment, but grim. I had already accepted before that scene that Hector couldn't alter the past, and we had already seen her killed... so the "escape" from her dying was a pretty amazing and unexpected twist.

That said, it would have been even better to have the wife pretend to be dead, but the problem with that is she fell off the roof, she didn't just "appear" on the ground laying down when he looked.

As for the "happy to have his life back", all I could think was "his life is so *beep* He has to explain the dead body in his yard to police, explain all the other destruction of vehicles, all the DNA evidence spread around everywhere. He would probably spend several years in court, then spend years in prison, never to see his wife again.

It certainly wasn't a "happy" ending, though it felt quite realistic. I liked the movie and ending a lot.

[–] Grace_from_Dogville 10 years ago

we never see who hit Hector 2's car

We see that later. He hits himself by a red van.

[–] razvan-rogoz 10 years ago

Actually, that was not a scientific device but rather character development.

This was not the first time when it was showed to us that Hector is an idiot. So from that scene I've understood that he's not the smartest in the bunch. Usually in time travel movies we have really smart folks. Even in the Butterfly effect, after two or three travels, he was a master in quantum physics.

Hector 3 hit Hector 2 with the red van (final of the movie).
Hector 2 took the white car.

Hector 1 I have no idea what happened to him nor did I care. I guess the first Hector was always the one who got bandaged but this was supposed to be Hector 2.

Anyway ...

The only branching part was the girl.
Scenario 1 - she fell, hit her head, left there on the rocks. Hector took her clothes.
Scenario 2 - she found Hector 3 after he hit the white car (Hector 2).

So unless she found her clothes, evaded that guy and found Hector 2 there, this is a plot hole. This is a plot hole only if we assume that the scenario was identical every single time and that it was just seen through the eyes of another person.

[–] robertegblack 10 years ago

your branching part with the girl is incorrect. the girl meets hector 3 after her interactions with hector 2. her scream upon being startled by hector 3 is heard by hector 2. hector 3 was apparently unconscious the entire time she was interacting with hector 2

-author of the groundhog day project (groundhogdayproject.com)-

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 10 years ago

First, it is clear that it was Hector 3, who sent Hector 2 into the woods by banging his car.

Second, there is no beginning or end to the loop. It may come as a surprise to many, but as per Time Travel portrayed in this movie, there is no loop in the first place. There are no alternate timelines/universes for the loop to continue.

All the implications/end result/effects were due to what one man did - Hector (the man, whose perspective the film was based on). He was Hector 1 initially, then became Hector 2 and then ended up as Hector 3. The presence of Hector 1 and Hector 2 are solely because of his actions alone. And the subsequent Hectors 1 and 2 go through the path what Hector did initially, playing their part in the sequence of actions. Hector goes through the entire experience and comes through in the end.

To summarize, there is no loop.

[–] bobbobbob123 10 years ago

there is no beginning or end to the loop

Of course there are. When H2 appears, that's a beginning. When H1 climbs in to the machine, he disappears. There's the end. During that period, there are 2 Hectors. The only loop is from Hector's subjective perspective. Objectively, there is no loop.

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 9 years ago

Objectively, there is no loop.

Of course, I was referring to that.

Considering the subjective loop, it's a paradox. Hector 1 goes into the machine because of Hector2, so how did the first Hector 1 get inside?

[–] padzok 9 years ago

Hector 1 goes into the machine because of Hector2, so how did the first Hector 1 get inside?

Since the time machine is only located a few hundred yards from Hector's House, it was possible for him to enter the time machine in an infinite number of ways that were not illogical and not supernatural.

The events shown in the movie can all be explained by nothing that is illogical or supernatural, provided it is accepted that there is a working time machine which sends people about an hour into the past.

This is in contrast to a story in which, for example, a college student meets a mysterious old woman who gives her some plans to build a time machine. The girl builds the time machine, and has lots of adventures in it. But she never meets anyone else who has a time machine. Eventually, many years later, as an old woman, she travels back in time to her old college to give the plans to her younger self.

In a story like that one, merely suspending disbelief to the extent that a working time machine exists in the story is not sufficient to explain all the events. Some additional assumption would still be necesssary to explain where the time machine originally comes from.

However, not all time travel stories contain that additional mystery element

For example, take a character walking along a street. He sees someone in a Shrek costume walking towards him and then past him. He thinks this is a bit odd, but they do not acknowledge each other and both keep walking in opposite directions.

A bit further along the street, he meets a man who says: "I will give you $1000 if you put on this Shrek costume and walk a mile back the way you came". The guy assumes this is a scam and is about to say "no", but then he remembers seeing someone in the costume earlier who did not seem to have been beaten up or robbed, and so he decides to take a chance. The man gives him the money and directs him to a chamber where he dons the costume. While in the chamber there are some mysterious flashes and noises. He comes out, and the man is gone.

He then walks back down the street, as per the agreement. As he sees his younger self walking towards him, he realises that he has travelled back in time. He keeps walking without acknowledging his younger self.

In this second story - as with Hector in Timecrimes - the existence of a time machine is the only thing necessary to explain everything.

The fact that the guy might have said "no" to the offer if he had not already seen someone in the costume does not matter.

Provided he is willing to say "yes" to the offer, provided that he has already seen someone in the costume, then he would have already seen someone in the costume by the time he gets the offer and so will say "yes".

If he was the type of person who would say "no" to the offer, regardless of whether he had already seen someone in a costume or not, then he would not time travel, and would not experience seeing his younger self. If the younger self did see anyone inside a Shrek costume, then it must have been someone else. Perhaps the time travelled version of the person behind him on the road who got the $1000 that he turned down.

Obviously the sequence of events in TimeCrimes is more complicated, and there are more characters. But the logic is the same. Provided each character would potentially react in a certain way to a certain situation, then, even if that situation (and hence the reaction) can only arise in the event that (at least) one character time travels ("later on" from the perspective of the younger self) and interacts with his younger self, then the situation can logically occur. The existence of the time machine makes the necessary time travel logically possible.

[–] YouMightRabbitYouMight 9 years ago

Nah, srinath_r_htanirs has it right.

[–] padzok 9 years ago

so how did the first Hector 1 get inside?

And just to finish off the previous example, it easy for there to be a sequence of events which lead to the time-traveler trying to prevent the time travel.

Take someone walking on the straight road from Building A to Building B. He has important and urgent business in Building B, and no intention of straying from the path.

There are, however, an infinite number of things that could happen to him on the way which could cause him to change his route.

As he is walking, he sees, in the distance, a man covered in blood running towards him and shouting incoherently.

Rather than run straight back the way he came, where there are no hiding places, he takes a side street, which, in turn has numerous branches, which split further. He keeps running looking for somewhere to hide, and sees a woman standing by a small hut. The woman says to him, "you look like you need somewhere to hide, step in here".

He does so. There are some loud flashes and bangs and he feels excruciating pain for what seems like ages, but is probably about 10 seconds or so.

He steps out, and sees the woman. "What an earth did you do that to me for?" he screams.

She is surprised, and acts like she has never seen him before. Then she cottons on. "Oh, you must be a timetraveler. Congratulations. You're the first person to test the machine. I have been here all day asking for volunteers, but no-one has been willing to risk it. You must be very brave."

"Brave?" says the man. "Brave? I was just running away from a lunatic. I'd never have got in if you'd told me it was a time machine."

"Is that so?" the woman muttered to herself. "I see."

The man now catches his reflection in the window of a building across the street, and sees he is covered in blood and his ear is hanging off.

"Not my precious ear," he exclaims. "I must stop myself entering this infernal contraption."

And so off he sprints to find himself. He gets a bit confused so that when he reaches the main road, he heads off towards Building B. Eventually, he realises his mistake, and does a 180.

As he goes back the way he came, he sees his younger self in the distance, near to the side street leading to the time machine. He thinks it will be too late to stop his younger self going down that path in a minute, and so he increases his speed, running as fast as he can, straight towards himself yelling "no, no". By now he is out of breath, and the blood in his mouth, both masks his words, and makes his appearance even more scary.

Yada Yada

The explanation for the fact that this happened relies, in part on the fact that there is a time machine, and in part on the personality of the time traveller, and in part on the personality of the owner of the time machine.

The events would not have played out like this if any one of a number of things had been true:

1. The guy did not scare easy and so would not run away because he saw a madman
2. The guy was a good samaritan and so would stop and help an injured man
3. The guy's business at B was so important that a few distractions would not let him be late
4. The time machine owner was more honest, and would not trick someone into using the machine
5. The guy was more spatially aware and would not get lost when trying to retrace his steps
6. The guy was more calm and logical, and would be able to work out that if he didnt scare his younger self, then there'd be no reason for the younger self to leave the main road.

If anyone of those 6 things had been true, then quite probably the man would have reached B without trouble. (Although there is a finite possibility that some other events would have intervened; perhaps a non-time travel problem or perhaps time travel with happening differently).

However, none of the 6 things were true.

[–] alveolate 9 years ago

did you just attempt to resolve someone's confusion about the movie's loop by positing your own script? wow. i don't think it worked btw... timecrimes was already pretty straightforward and fairly easy to grasp by anyone who watched the film expecting time travel and some time looping.

if they got confused here... they either have to rewatch it a couple times, or find some interactive diagram to explain it for them. bunch of words probably won't help... much less a totally different story for analogy!

anyways, i am quite intrigued by the film's prologue now that some poster mentioned it. why was the hatchback driven with the tail open and stuff dropping out? it is probably unrelated to the time machine, since that happened before hector 2 saw them from the hill silo - which is barely a minute after the machine was first turned on.

the tail COULD have opened the exact moment the machine was turned on, but given the distance, it is quite unlikely to have been directly / physically caused by the time machine. unless some crazy quantum mechanics or wormhole magic is involved.

nonetheless, the mess left behind by a randomly popped open tail did portend the mess that hector was about to get himself into - all caused by a random binoculars-induced curiosity.

all the same... i still think there's plenty of time after hectors 2 and 3 left the silo for MORE iterations of hectors to pop out of. the scientist was in the silo after giving hector 2 a quick briefing and grabbing an espresso, so there's probably 15-30mins between that and hector 1 coming into the house, i guess?

[note, this is purely speculative fanfic, maybe useable in a sequel LOL]

if there's a hector 4, he could hide in the attic, tell the hot bicycle lady to jump down safely onto a soft spot he prepared earlier, then lie down in a way that looks like she broke her neck and play dead for a while.

then, while hector 3 is on the lawn chair (he and clara both were looking away, so hector 4 would be free to set stuff up), hector 4 can get bike lady to scoot off the property, along with a promise to get in touch later for a full explanation.

with the girl rescued, hector 4 goes back to hide in the house, maybe in the bathroom where he knows hector 3 will enter alone later. then, he tells hector 3 that it is still possible to save the poor girl, tells him what 4 had just done, and convinces 3 to go back to the silo for another go.

[end fanfic]

man, this show is just so much more fun than primer! i mean, primer was good hard scifi, but the whole box in a box thing really made it way too complicated to understand in one sitting. meanwhile, timecrimes is so digestible and yet still satisfies the hard sci-fi requirements of single-timeline time travel (afaik). i just hope if/when the hollywood version is produced, they don't muck it up too bad!

[–] padzok 9 years ago

timecrimes was already pretty straightforward and fairly easy to grasp by anyone

Agreed.

they either have to rewatch it a couple times, or find some interactive diagram to explain it for them.

OK. It depends what the person is confused about. But some people's confusion might be cleared up by that kind of thing.

bunch of words probably won't help... much less a totally different story for analogy!

Perhaps you're right.

But my opinion is that certain types of confusion can be cleared up by analogies.

At the very least, I think it is possible to show that TimeCrimes contains nothing more "confusing" or unexplained than a working time machine, and that Hector's interactions with the time machine all have a logical explanation once the existence of a working time machine is accepted.

IMHO, analogies - the use of even simpler time travel stories than TimeCrimes - might help some people see that.

[–] mariogdll-703-55668 9 years ago

You don't get it. You can imagine an infinite number of plausible scenarios to explain the events. What is still not explained, and is not straightforward is how the events started. Hector 1 was looking through his binoculars and saw the girl undress. That was the event that started everything else. However, that girl would not have been there if Hector 1 hadn't seen it, gone looking, gotten stabbed, ran into the forest and found a time machine. In other words we don't see him set the series of events on motion, nor is it conceivable that they could have begun in the first place.
The only explanation would be that the first Hector we see is in fact Hector 2. Hector one at some point went back in time and by trying to avoid himself somehow got the girl to undress in the woods. However, it seems unlikely because she went to the woods to begin with because of what Hectors 1 and 2 has done.

[–] drob273133 9 years ago

surely there is no hecter 3.lets say hector 2 is driving down the road at 4pm eventually thinks his wifes dead,gets back in the machine,comes out talk to the beard guy finds the red van and drives down the road until at lets say 3 seconds after 4pm sees himself driving on the road and crashes into himself.

that is the loop as hector sits on the lawn,bandage hector goes back in time comes out saves his wife and sits on the lawn as his bandaged self thinks his wifes dead goes into the machine.

[–] craigh01 9 years ago

I have a theory how the loop started. Hector 1 is not really Hector 1... At the very beginning, a few things: the wife says "time flys around here". Also, a the beginning, there is interference on all the radio stations. Then Hector goes to lie down for a while (during the interference). Seems like he can't sleep, but he wakes up and the interference is gone. At that point, we have another Hector I think. That's the beginning of the "disturbance", the time loop.

And when he gets that first phone call (from himself), he says it's Saturday. But his wife says she thought it was Friday. He came home wearing a suit, which would imply he was picking things up on his way home from work. He probably doesn't work on Saturday. So somehow, between when he laid down with the interference, and got back up, this is where the loop started.

Also, notice at the beginning, the wife says "you haven't slept" and he says "yes I have"... Hmmm....

Just a theory!

[–] Dejay 9 years ago

Interesting idea! BTW at the beginning we hear him slam down the rear door shut but we also hear a "bing bing bing" which means his read door wasn't shut correctly.