MovieChat Forums > Knocking (2006) Discussion > Why does Joel E. avoid the question?

Why does Joel E. avoid the question?

posted 17 years ago by ScrantonPBX
16 replies | jump to latest

Joel recently uploaded 3 clips about Knocking to YouTube. In one of the clips shown here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q328lLFC_9Y&feature=PlayList&p=54714EBF23EFA251&index=2 Joel is asked why he never became a JW, even though he was raised as one. He completely sidestepped the question and did not provide an answer.

If you are a JW and are reading this, ask yourself, "Are gay people welcome to join the JW's?" I'm not talking about abandoning the lifestyle and joining, but actually being accepted into the organization as a gay person. The answer, of course, is no. I wonder if the JW's that watch Knocking realize that Joel is indeed gay? He grew up as a witness(but was never baptised), spurned the Watchtower organization, and pursued the gay lifestyle.

If you do not believe Joel is gay, please read this story written by Joel -- http://www.hepb.org/patients/personal_stories_know.htm

Another reference is made here -- http://www.jmcommunications.com/wlog/2006/10/documentary_about_jehovahs_wit.html

This post is by no means meant to "bash" gay people. They are always welcome in my home. The problem I have is Joel's willingness to suppress this information by letting JW's stay in the dark about his lifestyle. Is he worried that JW's will not buy his DVD? Is he worried that the message in his documentary will be tainted within the JW community if the rank & file find out he is gay? These are the questions I would like Joel to answer.

[–] o-s-forever 17 years ago

Does Joel's personal life matter?.......

He's more then likely no a child molester.

[–] ScrantonPBX 17 years ago

>>Does Joel's personal life matter?.......

Not to me. But to 6 million JW's it should. Go ahead and ask ANY jw how gay people are viewed from an organizational point of view. Which still begs the question - Did the WTBTS know of Joel's lifestyle before agreeing to help with his documentary?

[–] o-s-forever 17 years ago

Witnesses love Michael Jackson and he's disassociated.

I'm sure some people will care {most might}, I don't know.....I'm a witness and I don't care.

But in the same since what about the publications that we use that I'm sure people who are now diss'ed contributed to........

And I'm sure they didn't know he was a homosexual{presumed}during the process of shooting, even though Jesus resided with the sinners...most people that I know wouldn't talk to such a person.

[–] Hriley1286 17 years ago

I have to reply to your bringing up Michael Jackson, my aunts brother in law was in the same JW Hall as him. When he started making music videos of a sexual nature in the 80s he was asked to stop or leave the church. He chose to leave. The JW do not support exploitation of any sexual nature. He did also say he was never comfortable there, he would come in and keep his head in his hands practically in his lap the whole time.

I will say though as a christian counterpart to my aunt's chosen conversion to JW as her husband is one and they raised their children as JW they did not associate with us. If we approached them they were cordial but they never contacted my family directly it was only my mom keeping her connection with her sister that I even grew up knowing my aunt.

I did go to hall with my aunt and uncle a couple of times, but as I grew older and learned the ins and outs as far as the medical restrictions and my aunt explained to me once that if she and my uncle were out and she were attacked he could not interfere which goes against EVERYTHING I was raised to know. If I was with someone and I attacked and he just stood there as if it were gods will that it happen it would be the last time he laid eyes on me.

Anyway I believe in freedom of religion, I'll watch the film out of curiosity, none of us from we pagans to catholics and every religion out there each has their issues, each has good and evil, we are human and flawed.

[–] madcat2013 17 years ago

I read your message with interest and feel compelled to give you more accurate information on JW's and self defense.

A man, even within the JW organization, CAN and SHOULD protect his loved ones in the event of an attack. Nowhere in the Bible or in any of the JW publications does it say that you cannot defend yourself or your family.

One scripture actually states, "if any man does not provide for his own, especially members of his own household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." Thru my study of the Bible I would conclude that providing for your family and household does not cover food, shelter, etc. only. Protection, even physical, would count.

If your aunt thought that was something he "could not do" then she was under a false impression. JW's really try to please God in their daily lives. Do you think God would be pleased to see an able-bodied man just stand there and let his wife be beaten, raped, whatever?

Perhaps some people think that because Jesus counseled to "turn the other cheek" we should not defend ourselves if attacked. This is untrue. Jesus actually defended himself when an angry mob tried to throw him over a cliff. The Bible doesn't say specifically how he did it, but he was able to get away from them safely. If he believed that defending himself was somehow wrong, he would have let them kill him. Tho he was killed later, at the time the angry mob tried to his work had not been completed on earth.

I believe that what Jesus meant by saying to "turn the other cheek" is to not get involved in a fight if someone is just trying to provoke you. A slap in the face is often not meant to injure but to insult and to get someone to fight. If a JW has the opportunity to leave that situation without having to cause physical harm to anyone, that would be ideal. But in this world we do need to protect ourselves.

[–] dylants2000 14 years ago

I would like to add: Exodus 22:2
“If a thief should be found in the act of breaking in and he does get struck and die, there is no bloodguilt for him. 3 If the sun has shone forth upon him, there is bloodguilt for him."

Even though we are not under the Mosaic Law, the principle is clear. I would like to add, it really comes down to your personal conscience. I would protect my family and my home if it came to that. If you personally feel that protecting your self would go against your bible trained conscience, it is your choice, however I think you are morally obligated to protect your loved ones in your household. That does not mean you would intentionally try to kill a prowler, but you are obligated to provide protection for your family.

Jesus also drove out the money changers from the temple with a whip made of ropes, so violence is not always out of the question. Jesus was perfect and never sinned, so there is grounds for a physical defense in some cases. We also need to beware that Jehovah hates lovers of violence so you need to be careful in this area.

[–] SupermanCrasy 17 years ago

Ex JW

If you dont like witnesses dont come on here and spit your dummy at a well made documentary, showing a lot of truth of what hard work witnesses do.

Your either been kicked out for being bad or u just wanna pick a fight if u feel so much prejudice go to an apostate website where everyone will agree with u, cause I just wanna hear good reviews, not bigotry against a religion

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] vew573 17 years ago

Probably because it's nobody's business why he didn't become one of Jehovah's Witnesses....I'm a Witness and it's none of my business....He did however, say early on that he was gay.....I have the video and so do several of my friends. He did a very good job of telling it like it is...

[–] dantwardows50 17 years ago

Witnesses always have choices we have to make. How far, how much, what's right and what's wrong. I can't say for sure whether or not the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society knew much about Joel's background, but I would be surprised if they didn't. Considering that they allowed him free access to the WT archives and full cooperation in the production of the documentary, I'm sure they did their research.
After all, they would no doubt first want to know why he isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses though being raised as such before agreeing to contribute to the documentary.

Would Witnesses bar a gay man from visiting a Kingdom Hall? No, and neither would they refrain from having discussions, particularly Bible based ones, with him. As Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, we don't stop mixing entirely with those of the world, otherwise we "would actually have to get out of the world." Witnesses draw the line at being influenced in a negative way. The way a non-Witness lives their life doesn't mean Witnesses measure how close or how far we get to him or her. We approach using the same discretion and caution when it comes to association. As a previous poster said, Jesus did dine with those who lived lives not in line with God's laws, and he had reason too.
The documentary's subject and content is agreeable to all parties involved, including the people portrayed, the producers, and Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole. The sexuality of the film maker does not change that.

Think of it from the other direction as well. Joel knows the Witness stance on homosexuality, yet he chose to make such a positive documentary, even featuring Witness efforts in the area of civil rights.

I'm not sure what your goal in bringing this up is, ScrantonPBX, but it feels like you really want to discredit Joel or the documentary in some way. I don't know, I may be totally wrong, but I hope you realize what's really important here.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] kristyofafrica 17 years ago

I am a Jehovah's Wittness. I have had many friends and aquaintences in the gay and lesbian community. I have seen many homosexual individuals come to the kingdom hall. We do not judge individuals, but rather follow Jesus example - he spoke kindly to and preached to all people, including those who were shunned by society, for example prostitutes.

We do, however, believe that the practice of homosexuality is condemmed in the Bible, and that in order to gain God's favour, it needs to be avoided with God's help. (See for example Romans 1:24-27, 1 Timothy 1:9-11). An excerpt from a publication from the Watchtower Bible and Tract society: "True Christians know that even deeply rooted wrong desires, including those that might have a genetic basis or that involve physical causes or environmental factors, are not insurmountable for persons who truly want to please Jehovah.... A person may feel stongly attracted to others of the same sex, but by heeding the counsel of God's word he can remain clean from homosexual practices.

[–] slayer7 17 years ago

Organizations stance on Gay people is stated in the bible.

1st Corinthians 6:9-11 states:

"9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were."

The important part is 'men who lie with men' and 'men kept for unnatural purposes' these would indicate both the males and females in the homosexual relationship are commiting a serious enough sin to 'not inherit god's kingdom.'

Verse 11 states that: "that is what some of you were" this shows that if people give up these practices they are to be accepted as godly and washed clean. I've attened the hall since I was 2 or 3 and I've been baptized since I was 21 (24 now) I can testify that the only thing we have ever been taught about immoral people is you hate their 'actions' not them. Also we are not told to try to get them to change. We are encouraged to teach them what the bible has to say about the matter and let them make their own decisions of weather or not they want to serve god the way we believe to be accurate.

If they choose not to we will choose not to keep them as associates as 1st corinthians 15:33 states that 'bad associations spoils useful habits.' So our reason to avoid them would be in hopes that their conduct doesn't rub off on us. Their conduct of course being defined as what the earlier verse about 'not inheriting god's kingdom' stated.

I knew Joel was gay, I've read those other posts. Would he be my associate? no, Do I care that he's gay to the point that its going to affect my view of him as journalist? no.

I hope this clears up the question and that I haven't wasted my time here. All I'm doing is providing what the bible says, you can take it or leave it, or agree with me or not... but consider the question answered or atleast attempted to be answered by someone who cares enough to try to do it right.

[–] Darlyng 17 years ago

Joel's clip that you refer to above, concerning his side-stepping the question of why he never became a JW, has been removed from YouTube. Do you know of any other way to view this clip?

PS: Nevermind, I found the clip here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7L36kKrPPE

Is this the same one you are refering to?

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Sweet_Canela1 13 years ago

First of all in the video he does say why he didn't become a witness. He said his main reason is that he didn't believe in our philosophies and that he felt he could do more help inside this world, rather than not being part of this world as Jehovah's Witnesses are (apolitical).

Do we know he is gay? I'm not sure about everyone else but we certainly suspected it the first time viewing the movie and I saw articles later confirming it. And it changes nothing about the documentary that he produced which was a fine impartial depiction.

My husband loves movies we rent movies all the time and not once do I think, "is the producer gay, bisexual or a fornicator (having sex outside the confines of marraige) and then make a decision based on that. If I did I wouldn't watch probably any movie because most do have sex outside the confines of marriage. The important thing is the content and how it affects my spirituality. And after seeing this accurate depiction from an outsider I felt really proud to be a Jehovah's Witness.