I'm a bit confused - I've read at least two separate sources that tell me Sweeney Todd was a fictional character that didn't exist, but I've also read another source that told me he was a real person in the 1700s, just not necessarily a serial killer. Does anyone know anything definitive about him?
The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr. Brain has long since departed, hasn't he, Perce? - Edmund Blackadder
I cant give you any links or such, but Yes, Ben B. or Sweeney Todd was a real man. I had the great pleasure of walking down Fleet St in London when I lived there. And I saw the outside of where the pie shop had been.
If I find them, i'll post some resources if you like.
-GAZurella
"Pippin!!! SIT DOWN!"
Thanks very much.
The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr. Brain has long since departed, hasn't he, Perce? - Edmund Blackadder
Yes its a known fact that Sweeney Todd was a serial killer in the 1700's and yes the meat from the bodies were put in pies
shareI'm afraid 'known fact' is a bit strong.
The story, as we know it, derives from a 'penny dreadful' of 1846. These were sensational melodramas, some complete fiction, some based on fact, but most with only a grain of truth.
It is certainly not clear, or generally accepted, that the story derives from anything more than some newspaper account of a barber executed for murder, perhaps mixed with other stories floating around in the 19th century ether. Peter Haining claims to have found evidence for a rather more substantial foundation, placing him around 1800 but, to quote another not entirely reliable source (in this case accurate), 'his claims have not been widely accepted, and other investigators have been unable to locate some of the sources he cites.' (Wikipedia)
It's also worth bearing in mind that many readers of the penny dreadfuls simply believed what they read and spread them about as fact, a tendency likely to lead to them being recounted as fact in contemporary writings. As Sweeney Todd's story seems to have gained a particularly good grip on contemporary imaginations, it's unfortunately likely that this renders a certain amount of evidence unreliable.
There is one other point that makes it suspicious: his original appearance in print was as a _secondary_ character in a story called 'The String of Pearls: A Romance'. Both the fact that he was secondary and the title of the story imply he was fictional.
So there's a good chance that there was a murdering barber in London around the turn of the nineteenth century, but each extra sensational detail becomes less and less likely after that: that he was not just a killer, but a serial killer; that the meat was made into pies; and so on. These stories tend to have a life of their own.
No, Sweeney Todd was most certainly not based on fact.
He is and was always a work of fiction.
According to CrimeLibrary.com Sweeney was indeed real. Here is a link: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html
shareSweeney Todd was NOT real. However there were several similar crimes committed which helped Sondheim create the modern Sweeney Todd. The name probably comes from Sawney Bean, a known killer who did crimes very close to that. Sweeney was created a long time ago. It was the British boogey man. There has never been a known Sweeney Todd.
share[deleted]
Would you care to cite some sources? The documents you mention seem to have eluded most respected historians, which is surprising for one of the most famous trials and executions in British criminal history.
share[deleted]
Yeah, I've looked at that - and, as far as I can see, the site's not far off being a modern equivalent of a penny dreadful. Apart from anything else, it seems to rely exclusively on the work of Peter Haining, as everyone else does who claims Todd was real.
What worries me most is not the claim that he existed - perhaps he did -, but that his crimes and trial were well-documented. Don't you just smell a rat immediately? If it's so well-documented, why is it only Peter Haining who's managed to find the documents? Why do others claim that not all he says are in these documents is in fact there?
I think we need to take a somewhat unhealthy portion of salt with these books and websites.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Sweeney Todd is, more than probably, purely a fictional character. I have read the successive versions of Peter Haining's book, I even had a short correspondence with him, and you'll notice that he is unable to give a precise source for any of his exclusive "information".
Futhermore, we have exactly the same story in France, and it was narrated in several books, the most important being Jules Beaujoint's "L'auberge des Trois Rois" (litterally : "The Inn of the Three Kings"). It's also based "on a true story"... (but I must add that the same author wrote other books about "true" crime story - and they were real). In Paris, rue des Marmousets, a barber opened a shop near a inn called "Auberge des Trois Rois". He killed some of his rich clients and offered the corpses to the inn, whose cook made some delicious meat-cookies, so delicious that even the King's courtisans were asking for (it was during the reign of Louis XV). In Beaujoint's book, the criminal fiend is named Barnabé Cabard...
Being a huge Tod Slaughter fan - since 1965 - I spent thousand of hours in studying the Sweeney Todd case and I'm almost convinced that it was purely an invention, but more or less inspired by this French case. I said "almost" because, not being a fanatic, I can revise my opinion if somebody can give a proof of the existence of the Demon Barber of Fleet Street.
(sorry for the broken English)
.com is not not accepted in academic circles as credible circles. Anyone can set up a .com webpage. In order to consider your internet research credible you need to use webpages such as .org or .edu. I hold a MFA in Dramaturgy (which is essentially a degree in Theatre History) and am currently working on my PhD in Dramaturgy. I have written two papers on this topic and my research that I have found thus far states that there was in fact a barber sentenced to death for murders committed in his shop. As time passed this story was expanded and adapted into folk tales and melodrama plays. As the years past the story became more fantasical. So it is commonly believed in academic circles that the Sweeney Todd depicted in Sonheim's musical is a fictional character based on melodramas from the turn of the century. It is highly unlikely that the murders committed by the barber I mentioned before included disposing of the bodies in pies. The pie shop that can be visited on Fleet St in London is just an example of folk tales using existing locations to make the story more real so it can teach the lessons it is intended to teach.
shareIf I were you I would think twice about saying .org or .edu are credible. ANYONE can make a .org website, people just assume that they are only handed out to reliable organizations (whitehouse.org relies on this assumption). As for .edu, I am more than capable of making any website I want and posting it as an extension of my university's .edu address (well, they might shut down porn, but I doubt they would shut down a website that just gave out false information).
There is no real safe place on the internet to get information.
True not all .org and .edu sites are credible but it is generally considered in academic circles that you should only use .org or .edu sites as sources. But as with any source for a paper you should examine it to be sure of its credibility before citing it. This goes for books, films, and articles just as much as a website.
shareJust to clarify...Sondheim's version of "Sweeney Todd" was primarily based on Christopher Bond's play, which he'd seen in London. He was impressed with the psychological motivations the playwright had added to the story/legend and set about adapting Bond's play into a musical.
shareSweeney Todd was not real, but you almost claim that Sondheim created the myth. This is untrue, the myth or legend I'm not sure what the right term for him would be has been around since before even his grandfather was around.
Also Sawney Bean is also untrue, another story that doesn't hold up.
I'm just reading through this forum and I don't know so much about Sweeny Todd but certainly Sawney Bean was not real. He is a mythical 16th century figure who was supposed to live with his family in a cave on the west coast of Scotland. He and his family were supposed to lure travellers, kill them and eat them. The story goes that the King's men came after him and he was caught and hanged. Unfortunately there is evidence (as is being said with Todd) that although there may be a small amount of truth in the story it is mostly made up (no evidence of anyone by that name being hung etc). Sorry Sweeny Todd was not based on Sawney Bean.
shareIt's not known really, a lot of serial killers not caught due to the incompetence of the police force at the time (remember this was before the Autumn Of Terror, which revolutionised the way the polic force in London operated and developed as well as giving birth to the gutter press which previously was non-existent ergo not many public people knew about serial killers except those living directly around the area they operated) so it's very difficult for us, in the modern world, to deduce whether he was real or not as the police force kept their records very poorly. The point I'm trying to put across is that there are accounts which support both sides of the argument, just like religion,it's a case of believing whatever you want to be true, don't listen to anyone who tries to present one side of the argument as the definite truth, we shall never know.
By the way, I know Victoria's Secret: She's a slut!
According to crimelibrary.com Sweeney existed, but according to what I've read, if may or may not be true. Due to lack of the abilities detectives and such have today, compared to the 1700's, I'm surprised any guilty man EVER got charged with something back then. The only reason he was executed, was because ONE of the men who was apprently killed, was never seen leaving the barber shop. Problem was, no one in town new this 'missing person' so if someone HAD seen him, they couldn't have named him.
I guess it's all an 'each to thier own' thing on this matter. Dosen't matter what you read, it's clear that there clue gathering skills weren't up to scratch back then, plenty of holes in the evidence... It's all up the the individual I think on this one. ~rach~
crimelibrary is not exactly the most reliable source. The fact reamains there is no mention of Sweeney Todd in print before the 1840's in a "penny Dreadful" and no record of him has been found in official police records and none in the court records. I think you can say with reasonable certainlty he was a fictional characeter.
There might have been a barber who commited murder in his shop, but he is not the Sweeney Todd of legend. The meat pies are almost certainly a myth.
The problem with Hainings book is no where does he produce the "new evidence" he claims proves that Sweeney existed.
It seems overwhelmingly probable that Sweeney Todd was a Victorian equivilent of a Urban Legend.
ANd I noted when last in London that the Pie Shop that supposedly was the one in the legend certainly plays it up in it's advertising a la the "Alfred Packer Restaurant" in Colorado.
Thanks for your responses. It occurs to me that - had Todd been tried, as implied in this version because he ended his life in prison - there would be court or prison records available somewhere.
"If we go on like this, you're going to turn into an Alsatian again."
And Todd is NOT mentioned in any legit newspaper of the period,and the news media love a good gruesome murder just as much then as they do now.
share[deleted]
and as far as the recards are concernd i was orderd to distry them it is my job to clen up time
shareI have always understood that there was a murderous "Sweeney Todd" barber not necessarily named Sweeney Todd, but that the whole putting the victims into meat pies was purely fiction.
This is not a War. This is Pest Control! Dalek to Cyberman - Doctor Who
There was a French story, referred to in print as early as 1612, of a murderous Parisian pie-maker in the Rue des Marmousets, who obtained meat from his neighbour and partner-in-crime, a barber who'd slit the throats of his customers whilst he was shaving them. There are hints that this French story (almost certainly the ancestor of "Sweeney Todd") dated back to Medieval times, so whether it's based on truth or not we don't know. What we *do* know is that the French story, in slightly amended form, appeared in print in London in 1824, twenty-two years before a sensational serialised story entitled "The String of Pearls" was published in Edward Lloyd's "People's Periodical". It was in this publication that the action was transplanted from Paris to Fleet Street, just around the corner from where Edward Lloyd's offices were. It was with this publication, and this publication alone, that Nellie Lovett, Tobias Ragg, "Sweeney Todd" and the rest made their first appearance on the world stage.
shareHere, the best place I found for the info
http://www.pbs.org/kqed/demonbarber/penny/
I postive SOMEONE has done the same crime in the past. It's too ingenious.
I believe that Sweeney Todd was real, whether he had the same name or not, yes I believe it! The History Channel should come up with something for it to inform people