Why counting is illegal? - 21 (2008) Discussion

[–] daissi 11 years ago

From Wikipedia:

"As of September 2012, there are no federal, state or local laws which prohibit card counting in the United States as long as no external card counting device or person assists the player in counting cards.

It is however frowned upon by casinos. Casinos continue to offer blackjack only because the vast majority of unskilled casual blackjack players more than make up for the small number of advantage players capable of reducing the casinos' edge."

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[–] dl4060 11 years ago

It's not illegal.

However, the casinos have the right to refuse service to anyone. That means they can decide they no longer want to allow you to gamble. If they throw you out and you come back you are trespassing.

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] den_quixote 11 years ago

It's not illegal and people do it all day and night. The key to being successful is to limit yourself. No casino in gthe world would fail to be suspicious of the "big" player who wals up and bets the table maximum on the first hand unless they know him. This whole movie is fabricated, which does not mean it is bad, just think of it as a good western.

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[–] transmentalist 11 years ago

Far from suspicious, the real life big-betting "gorilla" players wound up getting comped junket trips back to the casinos.

Remember, the casinos knew to look for players altering their standard bets. Players who do so draw attention to themselves, and get banned as suspected counters when they consistently win.

Players who just bet big and "happen to win" were of no concern at the time - the casinos figured they'd win back their money if they kept bringing the player back.

That was why the MIT team was so successful. They'd essentially found a way to exploit the casinos' expectations and blind spots.

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[–] jefgg 11 years ago

Counting cards is against casino rules, not against the law. And you have to be pretty sharp to count cards successfully.

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[–] Exa84 10 years ago

I wonder why He didn't go to the cops over his beating. He wasn't doing anything illegal but Cole did.

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[–] jefgg 10 years ago

I think people involved with an illegal enterprise are reluctant to seek out law enforcement.

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[–] joetigersfan 10 years ago

The "counting" debate has raged for years. What IS "counting"? Is it illegal? Several posters here make some good points. What is all comes down to is this: Casinos don't like to lose. If you are counting cards and winning, you will be asked to leave pretty quickly. But if you are counting cards and LOSING, the casinos love you to death and want you to stay all night. All week. All year. You are their new best friend.

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[–] chas437 10 years ago

Excellent points.

I believe the whole 'counting cards' thing is something of an urban myth. Sure, a disciplined, trained team of MIT kids might be able to pull it off. But for the common Joe, its an impossibility. It takes so much concentration and discipline, when there are distractions coming at you from everywhere.

I'd bet casinos make a mint off of people who think they know the count, and make huge bets.

Also, the Casinos typically offer 1 or 2 deck Blackjack, giving the player the idea that he/she has some sort of advantage. But the way these games are shuffled takes away any possibility of accurate counting.

I used to Blackjack a lot, but after a while, you realize that even if you play perfectly, the casino still has 50.5% odds. Its a losers game, despite what so many claim. Plus, if the house can get a shoe filled with large clumps of low cards at a busy table, they can murder the players.

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

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[–] pawnstar3 10 years ago

Forget about card counting. If you play blackjack straight up and are disciplined, you could easily make a comfortable living off of it. It's the only casino game like that.

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[–] chas437 10 years ago

Forget about card counting. If you play blackjack straight up and are disciplined, you could easily make a comfortable living off of it. It's the only casino game like that.

How can you easily make a living at a game where the house has a 50.5% advantage under the most player friendly rules with optimal play and betting discipline?

To "make a living", you would need to average at least +400$ per day. I've won 6-7 grand over a 3 week period but you HAVE to be aggressive at times to pull this off, but a long stretch of bad cards is inevitable. Even skilled card counters lose on certain nights. If what you say were true, casinos would be out of business.

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

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[–] Dude00 10 years ago

To the original post, yes Card Counting is NOT illegal. But, as has been mentioned a few times, casinos can decide at any point that you are no longer welcome to play. They do not need a reason. Once you are banned, as soon as you go back to the property, you are trespassing and then you can be arrested.

To another point, this movie is not entirely fabricated. This MIT team is the whole reason casinos don't allow mid-shoe entry. You are not allowed to join a table until they shuffle again. There are a few other rule changes they influenced, but that's the biggest one.

Finally, to Chas437, of course blackjack is a losing game. Every game in the casino gives the house the advantage. But blackjack gives the player the biggest advantage at 49%. And you have enough discipline to walk away when you're ahead instead of always going for more, you can make a good living out of it.

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[–] chas437 10 years ago

And you have enough discipline to walk away when you're ahead instead of always going for more, you can make a good living out of it.

I'm not sure about this, again, a lot of people claim to be able make a living at BJ, but I don't really know of any.

Yes, discipline in betting is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of play. Leaving after you're up a desired amount is something many players can't do. Also, what happens when you lose your original stake in short order? That happens just as often as doubling your money, even with perfect play.

I've read a lot of BJ books which claim to have the method to making $ at BJ, but none of them work. The one situation which the player is powerless to avoid is when the dealer shows bust cards when the deck is loaded with low cards. The player gets murdered.

There are variables, and if you can find a casino/table with the most favorable rules, you can definitely break even over a long time period of play. But its rare to find a table with all the favorable rules.

The winning play at Blackjack is to stay home, learned the hard way.

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

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[–] Bucko-2 10 years ago

I know one guy who sorta did this. He was working on "one big score". But it was a multi-year plan over 4 casinos. At any given point, he was down to 2 or 3 of the casinos and up at the other one. He would announce "I'm going to casino X this weekend and lose $80,000". Last time I saw him, he was swinging 6 figures up and down. We started to wonder if he was making it up, until the Friday at work when the champagne limo showed up :).

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[–] chilichilipepper 8 years ago

I dunno, there's a lot of people that make a living with BJ. And since you've read so many books about Bj's and how to make money in BJ, I just have one question

But what does that have to do with a casino?

/hugs just a joke.

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[–] chas437 8 years ago

there's a lot of people that make a living with BJ

I believe that's a myth.

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[–] pater-tenebrarum 9 years ago

It does take concentration and practice, but it's not as hard as some people are making out. The problem is that casinos have long ago woken up to it, and apart from their ability to ban card counters from their premises have done all sorts of things to make counting more difficult - to the point that it almost makes no sense anymore (by using a very large number of decks per shoe, changing cards before the entire shoe has been used up, etc.).

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[–] chas437 9 years ago

Casinos are doing things these days to make counting more difficult. In six deck shoes, after the cut, they place the marker such that anywhere from 50-100 cards will never be in play. Also, many casinos are switching to shuffling machines, which negates counting completely. Players would be smart to never play at these tables.

The most favorable conditions for blackjack at my preferred casinos is two deck play. But by the time you have the count, there's usually only two or three hands remaining. That's not enough to do any damage.

15-20 years ago, there were situations where one could count, but those days are gone. However, there may be casinos in Vegas were one might find the right conditions.

I've studied a lot of statistical analysis of blackjack. The one area where the player can negate the house advantage significantly is in double downs and splits. I always look for the tables which have the most liberal splitting/double down policies.

I'll take Punctuality

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[–] crashdummy35 9 years ago

Fantastic post.

Especially the point about the auto shufflers.

Counting is not illegal but, it's damn near impossible now a days.

Just knowing the basics will put you waaaay ahead of like 80% of the people at the tables.

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[–] Splarne 8 years ago

I've tried blackjack a few times, but under stress of making the right play for the table, I end up not enjoying the experience. I see some of those plays as grey area.

I much prefer craps. A hot roller makes for a fun time.

***

Go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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[–] Fugitive_Bill 10 years ago

I tried to learn counting +/- thing, but like one poster said you get easily distracted at a real tables in a casino full of Asians and noisy indigenous people - Plus I tend to have a few too many beers, that does NOT help!

So I play the computer 4 player Blackjack machines in the Poker Machine/One Arm Bandit area, where you are not so easily distracted.

Using the double-the-bet rule, after 3 or 4 hours 90% of the time I come away with $400 from a $100 stake.

Often I'll get people wanting to 'buy' (pay me out) my place at the machine when they see how much I win! - But I prefer not to, because I know they'd be pissed if they started losing!

Plus I avoid real tables (Star City Sydney or Crown Casino Melbourne, Australia) ever since the minimum bet went from $5 to $10 to $20.

If there was no maximum on the amount you can bet you'd never lose, just keep doubling your bet until you win, then go back to $20 bets. - and repeat.

-B!LL!

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[–] celsojuninho 9 years ago

That's called a martingale. It rarely works.

On a 100 bucks bankroll, if you bet, say, one dollar a round, a couple of bad streaks and you're done.

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[–] PropaneGame 8 years ago

counting cards would be possible for one deck i guess

but... casinos use multiple decks so how the hell would you know anything

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[–] rdix-95468 8 years ago

It's not illegal

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