at the end of the movie, he had no problem expressing his love for timothy. did the love reversal spell just not affect him? did the pansy just have a permanent effect on him? or was he really always gay, but too afraid to show it? if someone could help me out, that'd be great. thanks!
shareI tend to think of it this way: Yes he was really gay, but it took the pansy to bring it out of him. When the pansy's magic was reversed, everyone who actually was straight returned to being so. But since that clearly didn't happen to Jonathan, he was obviously gay from the start. Hope that clears things up :)
shareYes. There were both obvious and subtle hints that he was throughout the beginning movie.
shareI agree. During the audition, Jonathan looks through the door at Timothy and we see the song start through Jonathan's point of view. Back in the real world, Johnathan compliments his singing, pats him on the ass in gym, tries to help him after his locker is graffitied. I suppose you could take those things as just being nice, but considering the rest of the film, esp the ending, I think they were there intentionally.
share[deleted]
If you watch the movie again knowing the ending, they had a lot of hints all through the movie. It made more sense to me after watching it again. He was gay all along, but just to afraid to show it.
shareNot surprising considering the reaction that being out of the closet still seems to bring out of some people, like the original poster to this thread referring to Timothy as the "pansy."
shareThe OP was obviously referring to the magic flower, not Timothy. Your main point is valid, as evidenced by other incidents in the film itself.
"Nothing personal. Your name just happened to come up."
Of course, Timothy could have always been just a nice straight guy, unlike his less enlightened classmates. Telling a teammate (even a gay one) "nice form" does not mean you're gay. We do have allies, you know.
Nonetheless, the intention of the script is that we believe that he was always gay but afraid to show it.
Not garnished? Not finished!
DSTgar -
Of course, Timothy could have always been just a nice straight guy, unlike his less enlightened classmates. We do have allies, you know.
Certainly - point well taken.
Telling a teammate (even a gay one) "nice form" AND GIVING HIM A PAT ON THE ASS does not mean you're gay. Again, agreed. And the ass-pat is an AFA/NFL-approved indication of totally hetero bro-ffection. [ps - they're not technically teammmates - T's a 'shirt' (to my dismay), and J's a 'skin' (to my delight)]
Nonetheless, the intention of the script is that we believe that he was always gay but afraid to show it.
A number of J's statements (and actions) were entirely ambiguous - 'Need some ice?' 'Good form,' 'nice pipes.' But the scene in which J tripped the gaymeter for me was when he and the other rugboys were sitting around waiting to get into the gym while T is singing 'We Fairies . . . Like a Dream.' One of the guys asks J 'who's singing?' and he replies (with studied insouciance) 'don't know.' Of course he knows, and he is drawn to peek between the doors (as if looking out of his closet). The scene then morphs into a musical dream-sequence, and there's a good case to be made that it's J's dream rather than T's.
Wow, lb's a bit long-winded tonight. But I wanted to end by saying that I really enjoy/appreciate your imdb posts, especially on the Latter Days board. You have a lot more patience and greater forebearance than I!
Cheers. lb
"Nothing personal. Your name just happened to come up."
Thanks, lb. Man, that Latter Days board can try my patience! I was on the original message board for Latter Days (through TLA Video). Talk about intense!
I'm so glad I have the DVD for WTWM, so I don't have to put up with Logo's bleeping. And so I can try to get all the words to the songs. (If I could complain, it's that some of the songs do move along too quickly. Thank goodness that some of it's verbatim Shakespeare.)
Not garnished? Not finished!
An excellent source is posted on YouTube by DerMoment1609, who has highlighted the lyrics (and alterations) citing the act, scene, line, and who was speaking the line. Without that, I never would have understood "Pyramus and Thisby".
shareFrom the first time I saw this, I always thought that Jonathan was gay.
• Too honest to let the other guys bully Timothy, but
• Too closeted to come out.
By the time the power of the magic flower was withdrawn, he'd come to terms with everything so that he didn't change back.
More closely relating the movie to the play.
Jonathon/Demetrius started out straight and became gay (aka falling in love with Helena) Puck/Robin/Timothy/Helena. The town plays the part of Hermia's father by expecting her to marry Demetrius.
If you assume that Jonathon is just a kind jock then it dismisses all the interactions with Timothy (the scape goat of the students) as a show of pity and someone who is just trying to help out of a fellow student.
When Timothy first uses the flower on purpose, everything happens perfectly. This is because Tibbit helps by making sure that the other boys get coupled up and not mix matched (example: they all fall for the same person). Note that every time the flower was used and Tibbit wasn't around was when Timothy kept making people fall in love with other people that didn't want to return the affection. Also note how Oberon is able to order people to do what he wants (from giving Puck the flower to quieting the parents at the meeting). These clearly show that Tibbit is attempting to control the whole situation just as Oberon did (even fixes it all in the end).
Just a few ideas to get get people to compare the two.