MovieChat Forums > Ha-Buah (2007) Discussion > Questions to those that'd know (Israeli ...

Questions to those that'd know (Israeli perhaps?)


Hello, just watched the film recently, and I was pleasantly surprised. It was engrossing and light-hearted, yet curiously serious and important. Moving, to say the least, although I can't wholeheartedly support the ending. Not for want of a happy ending (okay, okay, a little bit of that, I have to admit...), but while I understood Ashraf's motives, I still don't think he would have, given his character, characterization, and going to the restaurant to do it. To the last, why risk the chance of hurting Noam? As one review pointed out, I think it was more poetic than justified....

But that's beside the point. What I really wanted to say is that I was especially surprised to see how Westernized Tel Aviv is. I knew it was modern, but I had no idea whatsoever the city was so progressive. Forgive my ignorance, but if you had asked me 2 days ago what I thought it would be like socially in Israel, I would have easily answered "conservative." Maybe even with a "very."

Well, I couldn't be happier to be proved wrong. I share similar views and attitudes with the main characters anyway, but have just more or less learned to live with the conservative environment I live in.

So, my questions, spurred by this Tel Aviv fascination:

Why is it that Tel Aviv is so progressive? I suspect that the rest of Israel is not like this...or am I wrong? Why is the environment so different from somewhere like...say, Haifa, or Jerusalem (I suspect I know the last: religion and traditions there are much too deep-rooted?).

It's just puzzling because Jews (I don't want to make a sweeping statement here, but generally) in North America seem pretty conservative. In my mind, they could only be more conservative, given that they're living in Israel, not having had to make some compromises to assimilate into "inclusive" North American societies.

Just curious! Would love to hear some thoughts from those more knowledgeable, or from those who live there, or have lived there, "there" being Israel and better yet, Tel Aviv.

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[deleted]

Thanks for the reply.

Like I said, I understand his motives, and considered most of those things (of course, you did point out a few more). While sympathetic to his state of mind, I still hold that his actions are quite out of character. Not a game breaker in the movie, but just my opinion.

That's too bad about the gay bar in Jerusalem. As I suspected, it would be quite conservative there.

But is that the only reason Tel Aviv is so progressive, that they're not bombed often? It seems to me that if an Israeli city were safer from terrorism, it would be just that: they'd be safer from terrorism, but their lives and values would continue to reflect status quo orthodox Jewish life.

I guess my question should have been, what makes Tel Aviv urbanites so much less traditional against other Jewish cities, considering how this is overwhelmingly not the case elsewhere?

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[deleted]

Thanks again!

I think perhaps I'm looking for answers that just don't have a clearly defined answer, which is alright. :) Your points make sense, but I suppose it's the same as asking me, why is Eastern Canada more liberal? When I think about it, there's a myriad of influencing factors, impressions, and some facts, but you can't pinpoint one or a few, it's just a muddy mess that's only cohesive together. I'll be content to just accept that Tel Aviv is special.

And I'm quite surprised at both the actors' orientation! Very convincing, and it did not seem self-conscious in the least--bravo! I know that would be hard--in general, it seems actors would cite love scenes as difficult or awkward, but it would even be a greater challenge to go against your own preferences! Enthusiastic props to both of them!

That's too bad Ohad Knoller's getting heckled, but it doesn't surprise me. I think many places in the world like Tel Aviv are leading the way in terms of tolerance, but nowhere is perfect yet.

As a thing I've noticed, why is the director always referred to as Fuchs/Fox? Isn't he named Eytan Fox?

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[deleted]

I think I know what you mean...

Here in Canada, a lot of people, generally conservatives, grumble on about our Native (we call them First Nations) population, calling them unproductive, drunkards, and a whole manner of other nasty things. And then they of course thump their chests and say something like how far we've strayed from the good path set along by our European founders--very often, they seem to forget that they are the intruders that subjected the first inhabitants of the land to cruelty and discrimination.

As someone more sympathetic, I'm sad to say that I do understand why the stereotypes abound, because their manifestations are honestly heart-breakingly frequent. I definitely do not wish to perpetuate it, but certainly, my own idealism took many blows when I studied reality more carefully, but I remain adamant for their respect, and understand the many hardships they've suffered, but not many seem to want to understand root causes and solve it from there.

As a another comment on "Fuchs"--not to be flippant, but I must admit that "Fox" would be more appropriate for the average English-speaker...otherwise, to pronounce it the way it looks would result in that 4 letter word, and plural! ;) It's give and take; I'd like to see his name the way it really is intended, but I can also understand publications reverting to the English equivalent for politeness' sake.

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[deleted]

Yes indeed, I didn't want to gloss over aboriginal warfare in their time, but it wasn't really my point regarding how they're treated here.

And the Guy "Penis" thing is priceless! :) I can definitely see that in p-i-n-e-s; we're just used to the i being a long "eye" sound in English, but that is certainly not the case in many languages.

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[deleted]

Ooh...one of those moments! I always cringe a little when in an interview, an actor summarizes the plot line, and the details are a little wacky. Man! What did you just spend all your time on?

But yes, I saw it the way you saw it, and I think the way most people saw it. To my knowledge, I think some people were ignorant of Eyal's attraction to Axel, but it seemed to me a minority interpretation (can I even say "interpretation"? They completely missed it). At least from discussions on my side, it appears most read the chemistry, and reactions to the ending ranged from mild confusion to greater distraction.

Until you pointed it out, no I didn't realize there were two Toms! And I of course had no way of knowing its significance in that culture--that's a really interesting detail! Seems like you had a good time in your post-secondary career in Israel, you rogue. ;)

Laughed myself silly with the "Zippy Penis" thing--thanks for sharing. You're a font of knowledge regarding Eytan's films, tom--a real boon to these boards!

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Oh, I remember the Zippy Pines story...lol
BTW, about the discussion of Tel-Aviv being a "bubble"
I'm proud to say that I live in T-A and wouldn't like to move ever!I love it here too much..
It's called "The city that never sleeps", and to answer your original question, I think that the residents here are more liberal to their neighbors and we do have some religious people living quite close to the region where the gay clubs are, but they don't interfere with other lives and everybody minds his own business sort of speak and watching the movie, I just loved to see the familiar streets and the beach ,was the "mine" beach that I used to go ... since I lived here,well more then 40 years.. !

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I grew up in Tel Aviv, till recently moving to Canada. there are few reasons why Tel Aviv is more progressive than the rest of Israel. aside from the obvious (big city, bigger population, more options etc..) the history of the city gives more reasonable points. Tel Aviv is a fairly new city with very slim history of severe conservative religion, race wars, middle eastern traditions etc.. That stands against the rest of Israel where almost everywhere you go there's rich past of people struggling to maintain their tradition and religion, Tel Aviv was just a blank canvas (not including Jaffa), a space for Jews fleeing the war to live freely. It is a modern city that occupies western Israel, as far from the conflict as possible and it likes to treat itself as a western or a more European city than middle eastern, with that goes the need to perpetuate that modern contemporary ideal of liberalism that conjoins western countries and cities, not solely European. Also, the architecture of the city gives a lot about its' social conformity and history, its the only Bauhaus designed city in the world which is contracted to be a new wave of European modernism which started in Germany. Also as a democratic society living in such hostile tense environment the kids who serve the army usually need this space to escape to, that is more liberal to remind them freedom can exist in this part of the world, the government (somewhat) makes an effort to respect and understand this need and so Tel Aviv is less negatively endorsed. the population of the city cherishes it while fully aware of their physical locality and the heavy political conflict so they'd fight hard to keep their rights. With all that said, there is a long way to go and Tel Aviv is hardly as progressive as some other western cities, continently yes, globally not so much, from my perspective.

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Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I just looked up that it's called the "white city," and totally Bauhaus designed--which I can totally appreciate, I'm studying graphic design myself, and we've all had to learn extensively about that style and school!

I definitely think I understand the "why" of Tel Aviv's liberalism more now. I'm curious, though, should you read this again: what about Tel Aviv is not "as progressive as some other western cities"? And what western cities did you have in mind when you say this, from your perspective?

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Well, Tel Aviv is still an Israeli city, Israeli authorized, so most of the political, social, economical, issues naturally affect it as the country's center. You can check out general random Israeli statistics online, they all apply in Tel Aviv too, of course. Most western European cities I find to be more liberal (Canadian too), but then again they are not under constant threat and tension as Israel, so, considering, Tel Aviv is doing a good job.

a video from turnhere films about the city, the narration is a little slow though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI1_2YIozNo

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[deleted]

"Tel Aviv is indeed a special place. Violence from suicide bombers there is rare, because it's more isolated and protected."
I challenge the legitimacy of your comments. Until a few days ago, there had not been a case of a single suicide bomb in Israel Proper in over a year.

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Tom is not even an Israeli, he has no idea what he's talking about. Tel Aviv is actually not too different than the rest of Israel. It suffered a lot of from suicide bombings during the intifada. It is a big city, the first Israeli city as well, but people there aren't living in a bubble any more than the people of Natanya, Ashdod or Be'er Sheva, to name a few. Most Israelis are quite Liberal, and so are American Jews, at least in New York (or so I've heard).

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[deleted]

My screen name says nothing about me. I made it up in 2002 for a Star Wars related forum. The only people who think Tel Aviv is in a bubble are people who have either always lived there or never went there.

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[deleted]

I didnt actually read this whole thing because its long, so I'm just answering the original poster's question about Tel Aviv.
It seems to me that your impression of Israel is a bunch of ultra-orthodox jews, and nothing else. It's really not like that... If you walk around most of Israel, it's really not that different from any other western country. True, its only 60 years old, but very very advanced for its age. Haifa isn't any less 'progressive' than tel aviv, in my opinion (im from Haifa). And not everyone in Israel is conservative. I certainly am not.

Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,
Towering over your head

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I think you're wrong in assuming that North American Jews are conservative. Just like Christianity, Judaism has a variety of sects, and they all vary dramatically in conservatism. Reformed Jews, Reconstructionist Jews and Jewish Renewal are pretty liberal sects, and since those are the ones I am most familiar with, I can't say how the more "conservative" ones actually are. I think Jews in big cities are pretty non conservative, with the exception of Hasidic Jews. Since there aren't really a lot of Jews outside of big cities, I'd say they're pretty liberal as a whole. Where did you get your impression of their conservatism?


And in the case of Israel, I think you should know that the vast majority of Israelis are secular Jews. The thing is that the Conservative religious Jews are the ones that control the politics, so of course Israels politics as a whole would appear more conservative.

I have been to Israel, but it was not for a long time, and I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I went to many different places, and they are all pretty westernized.

But I guess I haven't lived there, nor do I live there now, so I can't really say much on the matter. I was just more reacting to your assumption on the conservatism of North American Jews.

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Interesting query. Historically Tel Aviv has been a secular stronghold. It's a relatively new city (early 20th century) and Hebrew, as opposed to Yiddish, was emphasized early on. I also suspect that coastal cities are "looser" due to the draw of the beach. That's all I can think of. I love Tel Aviv.

When you think of garbage, think of Hakim!

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